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Maybe Palin and Clinton are interchangeable for a lot of voters...

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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:14 AM
Original message
Maybe Palin and Clinton are interchangeable for a lot of voters...
It's very apparent that picking Palin has made a huge difference. I was one of the minority (albeit sizeable minority) of DU'ers here who argued that Obama pick Sebelius for VP. I wasn't super vigorous about it but I was consistent and have a few OP's on record to support that. What I noticed in the primary season was that Hillary had a bulwark of voters that Obama just couldn't crack, mainly white women, and more specifically older white women. Primary after primary, state after state this held. It was not about "issues" or "Hillary's leadership" or her "experience", it was about identity and the sense of "we've waited long enough, it's our time". That's all fine and dandy, because not only was Hillary a symbol of women she also was a fighter for them on issues that directly affect them.

I know I will have /enraged a lot of DU'ers by now with the comments above. But in you heart of hearts, you know it to be just as true as the fact that Obama never would have won the primaries if it weren't for his superior gamesmanship within the caucases that nullified such a mentality to a certain point. I will concede that the vast majority of Hillary voters have stuck with Obama, but JUST ENOUGH of the female vote has gone over to the dark side for the main salient cause of identity politics. Other than gender, there couldn't be a candidate more diametrically opposed to Hillary Clinton in terms of experience, style, issues, and personal archetype.

It's also worth noting that there are multiple records (and no, I'm not going to link them here for the lazy people) where Mark Penn indicated their fall strategy involved pilfering Republican women to cross party lines on basis of gender.

Does this make women stupid and suggestable, just like sheep, voting with their gonads instead of their brains? No, not any more than men. Hell, the majority of Dem women and female Hillary voters will stick with Obama for intelligent reasons. However, there are just enough people out there, men and women alike who just don't have the foggiest clue of how the world works, what the issues are, or what's at stake. Mainly, this is due to poor education in America. Frankly, people don't get enough critical civics courses unless they go to secondary education, and even then civics can still be easily avoided. This built-in country-wide ignorance forces people to rely on heuristic thinking. People fall back on programmed memes or over-simplifying complex matters. So what happens is that a lot of women who don't realize how vital this election is in terms of issues just want to go with what gives them the best feeling and right now Palin is to them the Mavericky, plucky, PTA mom who's gonna show all those Washington fat cats what's what.

As Matt Damon says, (paraphrasing) "This is like some bad Disney Movie". Guess what Matt Damon, that was intentional. There's a lot of people out there that want this to play out like a Reese Witherspoon or Alecia Silverstone movie. We all know the plot: pretty girl who everyone thinks is a ditz dons a pair of nerdy glasses and shows the big boys who really is smart afterall once she saves the day.

Degrading Palin for being from a "small town" (which I hear a lot here, on Huffpo, and on places like Bill Maher)plays right into that script and for all the counter-productive things you could go after, this is one of the biggest. When you go after Palin for being from a "small town" you aren't disparaging her, you are disparaging small towns. And guess who actually puts people like George Bush in power. You guessed it, small towns. Look at any "Red America vs Blue America" map county by county and you will see the pattern emerge.

Small towns are ripe for picking off the low information working class female voter as they comprise a big portion of the work force and generally take the lower paying service jobs. Secretaries, office receptionists, fast food workers, light manufacturing line workers, nurse aids, clerical staff all tend to be the white "working class" tend to make less than the male dominated building trades, professional trades, and managerial jobs that are dominated by men. The disparities in rural America are high lighted by gender. Having a woman on the Republican ticket is going to tend to push a lot of "softly Democratic" women to flip that switch for Palin.

Again, it's not going to be in vast majorities, but it will be just enough. The effect will be that Palin and Clinton are interchangeable for them, not because of what they believe but because of what they represent.

It's too late to go back and pick Sebelius or Clinton (he shoulda picked Sebelius) but Biden is still a wise choice from a governance standpoint. Honestly, is probably the most qualified person in America to be President right now on the basis of sheer knowledge and mastery of the facts.

I just hope the Obama campaign and all that truly support him can cut through the identity politics and get enough people to realize this really is about issues and that the choice to make could not be more painfully clear.

I hope in the long run we do a better job of civics education in this country because we will eventually implode into further soft fascism if we don't.

(This is just a ramble of a post, I didn't have enough time to go back and edit it or clean it up. Sorry if it sucks).

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sebelius wouldn't have been a confidence builder for me.
Edited on Thu Sep-11-08 09:18 AM by dkf
And I think all this sexist outrage has done women some real damage. A truly strong woman convinces through strength, not by playing victim.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. She Would Have Been O K
Then McSame would have picked Romney, had a boring convention, and we would have the change vs. more of the same election we expected...

But we are where we are...
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Trouble is, Sarah Palin IS VIEWED
as that strong choice. Many women thought Hillary got where she is through Bill's coattails. Like it or not.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. She looks very weak to me.
I think her husband is playing the heavy. That is why she keeps him in the loop.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. Let's be honest - he should have just freakin' picked Clinton
dumb, dumb, dumb.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I Love The Clintons...I Would Walk Over Hot Coal For Bill And Hill
But we are where we are...McCain and Palin are the most right wing couple since Hitler and Eva Braun...Maybe that's over the top but I'm in a dyspeptic mood...
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. NOPE.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Put Clinton Aside
Edited on Thu Sep-11-08 09:23 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
If Obama takes a woman McSame takes Romney and we get the change versus more of the same election we were expecting...

You and I know that McCain and Palin don't represent change but that's not how it's playing in America...
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Well I don't have confidence in any of the women that were being mentioned.
I still say the only female who has impressed me enough to see her as President is Difi. And I don't like some of her positions either.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. We Think Alike
I was going to mention her...Regardless of her stand on the issues she's eminently qualified to be president...That might have been the ultimate check mate move; he would have addressed the woman and experience issue all in one...

I'm going to get (more) depressed thinking about missed opportunities...

We are where we are...
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. It depresses me that I don't know of more women that I could have seen
in that role.

Like I said earlier, all this victim mentality is a complete turnoff for me as a female.

Its ok if the woman is defenseless and picked on and needs to be helped, but NOT in the leader of our country.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I Know
It's irnonic that the party that went to the matress to put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court has now become the "feminist" party but it looks like they pulled that hat trick much to my dismay...

They are very results oriented campaigners...
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. The Unltimate Hat Trick Would Have Been If He Took Blanche Lambert Lincoln
A Baptist preacher's daughter from the South...


And it would be Obama-Lincoln!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. If he wanted to be as lame as McCain he could have picked Oprah.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. If he picked Clinton, the Republican convention would have been about blow jobs
and the media would be hounding Bill about his business relationships, based on the encouragement of the McCain campaign.

Understand the adversary: They are expert on running issue-free campaigns. The Clintons would have given them more than enough fodder to be doing exactly what they're doing now, with additional problem of Obama being completely lost in the shuffle.

March on.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The only problem with that - they can scream "BJ's" and Whitewater all they want
The people have already heard about it - it's a running joke in the country. Plus, it would focus more on the fact that things were actually good under Bill Clinton which would be an easy sell to the majority of Americans. I don't know how many times I've heard "I wish the only news we had to hear was about Bill's blow jobs in the oval office instead of this shit".

But at any rate, we are where we are. We have to make the best of it and move forward. I wish that Biden would be a little stronger about attacking Palin, right now all we are seeing is careful tip-toeing.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Yeah, It would have been an nothing but issues campaign if he
had picked Clinton. :sarcasm:
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oh STOP!!!!!
Palin couldn't carry Hillary Clinton's jockstrap. Or bra. Or whatever.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. I advocated for a Governor - Schweitzer and Sebelius at the top of my list
Don't get me wrong - Biden is a good man and good leader. He would be ready to take on the #1 spot if called upon in a tragedy or scandal.

I have to admit I'm less than pleased with the pick of Biden as VP. But we have what we have and we have to work with it to make it happen. Maybe during the debate he will make a strong statement and presence, but I fear that we will cower because she's a female and it will end up being a hand-holding contest and make no mistake - Miss Token Vagina will win hands down.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. "We" Set The Bar So Low For Sarah
If she doesn't drool in the debate, the media will declare her the winner, and say she's Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, and Margaret Thatcher with a frontier spirit...

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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Biden is stronger in the battleground states, PA, OH and MI
not to mention New Hampshire, whre he had a very successful event yesterday.

I was very pro-Schweitzer (and boy did I feel smart about pushing him after his convention speech), but I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama campaign said "too much new" when they considered him. You would have had two candidates that had to be introduced to battlegorund voters, Biden, on the other hand, is a known quantity, a very effective campaigner and an excellent debater.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. I hear you, but Schweitzer's the kind of guy that would blaze new trails in battelgrounds
The guy is simply a brilliant politician because he doesn't play politics. He can relate to pretty much every single demographic and is amazing on the stump. What I wouldn't have given to see that happen!

At any rate, I really like Biden - just not so much as a VP candidate. A VP sure, but as a candidate no. But that's water under the bridge now!
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Stop it. 95% of Hillary supporters are not that stupid.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I don't know what the cutoff % is but it the % of Hillary voters that "are that stupid" that
might make all the difference.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
23. I think you're on to something here.
That Hillary and Palin are interchangeable for some. That they see her as an underdog, as the heroine of a Lifetime (there's a reason that channel's still on) or Disney movie, and are rooting for her, even while they know nothing of her.

I grew up in a small town, and I wouldn't want the mayor of Mason to be VP. That said, there's a lot of small town pride in those towns (often with good reason), and you're right: attacking her on being a small town mayor before becoming governor of a small town state is just going to piss those people off. We cannot afford that--we need their crossover votes.

I just found out yesterday that a good friend from college (who's a seriously conservative Republican--we don't discuss politics much) actually has Palin as his computer's background and as his screensaver. While it boggles my mind, I don't think he's the only Republican who likes her that much and will work damn hard to get her into the White House.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Thanks. I figure my sentiments would get blown off. But this is the 800lb gorilla no one
wants to really face. We know all too well what it means.
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Balderdash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
27. I don't think the Palin "mystique" is so much about gender as
it is about small town America. As a Hillary supporter who is voting for the nominee, Barak Obama, it was never about gender at least as far as who I was voting for. That's why McCains choice of a women was such a slap to most Hillary supporters, it's about the policies.

The real genius of McCains pick is that it will get those blue collar ladies that admire small town wisdom. It is in part about gender but the real problem is these people, small town or people with that mind set admire men and women that can tough it out, pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They hunt and fish and eat what they catch or kill. They work as many jobs as it takes to make ends meet. They are going to admire Palin because she can field dress a moose. This is why Bill Clinton and Hillary for that matter were able to pull these people in, Bill is known as Bubba or Big Dog, they come from that background and can speak to these people and get them to see that Sarah Palin is bogus on their issues.

And these blue collar ladies are still mad about how Hillary was treated by the press and others during the primary. That's why we need to find a way to speak to them that isn't condescending or bullying. We need the Big Dog.
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