McCain's story about turning down release while a POW...

[Wetzelbill]

That is flat out awful and disingenous to exploit that. Good for him to be tough enough to survive, and good for him to turn that down, but he makes it sound like he decided it on his own. Prisoners were under orders by their commanding officers not to accept early release. I don't think he should brag so much about this stuff, it's very self-congratulatory and unbecoming of a person to do that. A real hero doesn't need to tell everybody constantly that they are some kind of hero. People just know it. He shouldn't trivialize it like that.

[grannie4peace]

1. what can you say--- he's an asshole

[Wetzelbill]

2. it's his story I guess he can tell it how he wants

But he has no sense of shame or humility. Especially when 4 years ago he chastised Kerry saying he was sick of fighting the Vietnam War.

[th13182]

3. I'm no history buff.....

..so please inform me.

Is it known that he did that or is it coming from him.

For example, did the media report that John Mccain denied his release, while he was still over there?

I'm 26 and never got over a B in a History course, so feel free to laugh at me, but you can never call me an elitist!!!

[Wetzelbill]

5. both him and a few other people

who were POWs too, like his cell mate. I don't know if it was reported that he turned it down, I doubt it was, because how the hell would the media know the inner workings of a prison in Hanoi? I watched a documentary on POWs where he and some other POWS talk about the releases. Lots of others were asked and turned down early release. Most of them if I remember correctly.

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. He fricking said that : 'God has bless me with personal Greatness.'

for surviving and doing his mission


Hitler said almost the same thing about his stent in WWI


I WAS FRICKING BLOWN AWAY WHEN I HEARD THAT.

[Wetzelbill]

7. I didn't totally catch that

I thought he said something along those lines, I wasn't sure. What a humble man, jeez.

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. I wasn't that drunk when I heard it

I swear it will be in the tapes

It blew my mind.


TIVO HELP PEOPLE! it was near the last 10 minuets of his dance.

[beac]

6. Exactly! He acts like he's something special for doing what he was ORDERED to do

and what HUNDREDS of other (BETTTER) men did right along with him.

He is NO HERO. He is SCUM.

[Wetzelbill]

11. I admire that he was tough enough to survive

It's a helluva story, but damn, what arrogance. I know Vietnam vets, I interviewed one for a short film I'm shooting. I used to work with one, I am related to several. I have never heard any single one of them brag about it at all. I am related to a guy who was in Special Forces, and did some legit battlefield heroics, and he never talks about it. He's drank himself into oblivion ever since, probably trying to forget what he's seen. But even then, he never brags. One of my professors fought in Vietnam, written a book about Indian Vietnam Vets, and I've sat through classes where he talked about warfare etc, I asked him a little about it, and he never once bragged about anything he has personally done the way McCain does. We all know it shaped him, and he's a stronger man for it, but he doesn't go around bragging about that stuff.

[beac]

21. Don't get me wrong, I think many, many of the POWS were heroes and

all of them, including McInsane, are incredible survivors. But McCain has forfeited ANY claim he had on being a hero by trotting his time in the Hanoi Hilton out at every opportunity like some kind of shiny trophy.

I lost a cousin in Vietnam. HE was a hero.

McCain is SCUM. I literally feel like I can't write that sentence enough. McCAIN IS SCUM.

[gmoney]

8. Why are they instructed to turn down early release?

Because it's a morale killer for those who don't get released?

I seem to remember something about it being a soldier's duty to attempt to escape captors and to cause as many problems as possible... like in "The Great Escape" and/or the documentary series "Hogan's Heroes"

[Wetzelbill]

14. some tried to escape

That's fine, but release is the same as cooperation, that's against regulations.

[gmoney]

16. why is release the same as cooperation?

the soldiers can go back to their units and possibly convey valuable information, or even get back into the fight... how does leaving themselves to rot serve to do anything but "spite" the captors?

[Wetzelbill]

22. I'm not totally sure

I do know that one guy who they allowed to be released early was a person who had memorized every single POWs name, so they allowed him to accept it and he brought the info back for the military to use. I think a lot of people in the military also feel that when they are in something they are in it together and nobody gets a free pass while others are hurting. So from talking to people I know in the military over the years, I always get a sense of not just duty for your country, but a sense of love for that person next to you. McCain and other POWS have talked about how they survived because of each other, so that's something I think is definitely true.

Also, if McCain had left early, his career would have been ruined, he'd have been ostracized out of the military and surely would have never risen up the officer ranks at all. He'd never have had a political career either.

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. Valuable information like what, the thickness of the mat they're given to sleep on?

The rats and roaches they had to kill for food? How many times a day they've been interrogated?

There is a code of conduct for US prisoners of war. It's useful, and I would bet has kept untold numbers of our uniformed alive. It's called The Code of the US Fighting Force. I've pasted the relevant passages below.
--------
e. Such enemies have attempted to lure American POWs into accepting special favors or privileges in exchange for statements, acts or information. Unless it is essential to the life or welfare of that person or another prisoner of war or to the success of efforts to resist or escape, a POW must neither seek nor accept special favors or privileges.

f. One such privilege is called parole. Parole is a promise by a prisoner of war to a captor to fulfill certain conditions such as agreeing not to escape nor to fight again once released—in return for such favors as relief from physical bondage, improved food and living conditions or repatriation ahead of the sick, injured or longer–held prisoners. An American POW will never sign nor otherwise accept parole.
--------

It's a military officer's duty to lead his subordinates. Not to leave them behind by means of early release, offered or bargained for. It's not heroic, just the way the military is expected to operate.

AS a VET, on this I will give John McCain a pass. Every time. There are a thousand other things that we can pound him on, no the least of which is his involvemnt in the collapse of Lincoln Savings and Loan during the Keating 5 scandal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_U.S._Fighting_Force

[samuraiguppy]

27. I thought that

in Hogans Heroes the plan was not to escape--even though they could have--because they were more effective staying put and doing sabatoge from the inside? They wanted to be in that particular camp because Klink was so inefficient that they could do all the sabatoge they wanted. So their camp had the reputation of being escape proof....even though in half the episodes they are traipsing around all over the place...

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. Unless I'm mistaken, Hogan's Heroes was a TV show, and a fictional one at that.

I had no idea that I was watching a historical documentary!

[samuraiguppy]

34. I was writing in response

to the person who commented:

"I seem to remember something about it being a soldier's duty to attempt to escape captors and to cause as many problems as possible... like in "The Great Escape" and/or the documentary series "Hogan's Heroes"

it was just an off the cut remark--that in that particular series I remember the goal as being the opposite--to not escape even though they could, because sabatoge was a more effective contribution.

No comparison McCain didn't do anything useful during his time as a POW.

Oh yeah--and it was a fictional tv show but supposedly based (very very loosely) on a real stalog.

[gmoney]

35. Yeah, I know Hogan's Heroes was fictional. :)

Based someone on the Billy Wilder drama "Stalag 17" ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046359/), except somehow turned into a comedy. Yes, they stayed there to raise hell and operate sort of an "underground railroad" of escapees.

Seems if someone was released, there might be valuable information that could lead to the liberation of the POW camps, such as the location, security measures, who among the guards could be bribed, or is it against the Geneva Convention to try to stage a raid on a POW camp in an effort to free prisoners? Or just strategically stupid?

My questions were asked out of wanting to understand why the policy was in place, not trying to be ironic or anything.

[zb1965]

9. He was just lazy to go back to fight Vietnamese.

[Wetzelbill]

12. oh wow, hardly

I think that's uncalled for. I wouldn't say that at all.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. This veteran says fuck you. Fuck you and the rock you crawled from under.

Lazy. Ever been hung from a pair of handcuffs behind your back? Ever had ice cold water splashed in your face after 48 hours of constant interrogation just keep you awake? Slept on the dirt floor with the light on? I haven't either. I've served my country though.

You, my unfriend, are a piece of shit.

Lazy. What have you done today to better the human condition other than besmirch the reputation of an American servicemember? Donate to DU? Fuck you. I suspect you'll be gone before too long anyway... so it really doesn't matter.

[renate]

33. I agree... I think one really tragic casualty from McCain's campaign...

... has been the honor with which he served and the hell he went through. It's so sad--appropriate, unfortunately, but sad--how it's become a cliche.

It is incomprehensible to me--and rude besides--how his time as a POW (as distinctly opposed to the overuse and cheapening of the POW card in this campaign) could be mocked. I cannot imagine going through, or especially anybody I love going through, what he endured.

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. RELEASE HIS FRICKING RECORDS THAT HE LOCKED!!

One form would do that.

[Wetzelbill]

15. yeah I think records should be released

By anybody running for President.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. Medical also...... My father knew friends from POW camps that survived

He knew the fortitude, endurance and character of his friends
and saw that they were broken even though they survived.



McCain is a broken man and a Manchurian candidate

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. dupe-delete

[beac]

23. I believe this is the real reason he went back to Vietnam....

to paper over anything that might contradict the ULTIMATE POW HERO narrative he was trying to construct for himself.

I want to know what's in those files!



(edited to fix anger-induced bad typing)

[kitkat65]

17. Sadly, I might have been more moved by him speaking of this experience

if he hadn't spent these last months using it to deflect any criticism of his policies or opinions.

In doing so, he cheapened the experience of not only him but all POWs.

[Wetzelbill]

24. I have been moved by it

I think it's an amazing story. But it doesn't seem too amazing when he uses it in the manner you just mentioned. On it's face, that is so ridiculous. And it does cheapen it.

[TwilightGardener]

18. My husband said that he would have likely faced some sort of

military punishment for accepting early release. I suppose we can give him a round of applause for doing what he was supposed to do...

[Wetzelbill]

26. He would have

Dishonorable discharge, probably. Unless his family connections could have saved him. It would have ruined his career.

[Ichingcarpenter]

29. He was psychological broken by then and given good treatment

He admitted it



meanwhile

[samuraiguppy]

25. can we keep this kicked

and maybe get some media attention to it? I am always hearing people say POW POW POW--we need to debunk this image he has.

especially with the way they treated Kerry--he didn't get any respect for serving--why should mccain? same war.

freaking purple heart bandaids. Makes me SICK.

[last_texas_dem]

28. I agree

I may be buying into the spin about McCain by the adoring media, but I also don't think the John McCain of the past *would* have told that story for political purposes or exploited his P. O. W. record to the extent that he has started to do. Just as he sold out most of the issues he was "independent" on in order to grab the Repug nomination, starting a few years ago, he has apparently also now thrown away any qualms he had about milking his military experience for all that it is worth.