Did what Kerry said happened in Vietnam actually happen?

[LostInAnomie]

I wasn't even born yet while Vietnam was going on so I really have no idea.

Was Kerry right in what he said? Did the government really sanction war crimes? Was there any definitive proof?

There are a lot of Repig vets around where I live who wont stfu about how they think Kerry lied and I want some proof that it went on.

On Edit: Im not looking for info on Kerry specifically. I am looking for proof that atrocities happened with government knowledge and permission.

[swag]

1. I think you should search this site for threads on Kerry's testimony

There are even links to video of his testimony. Kerry was testifying on behalf of several veterans, relaying their stories.

But if you get impatient, there's always My Lai.



Does this look like a war crime to you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

[blm]

2. Last year the Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize for their investigative

reort on Tiger Force and the atrocities committed in Vietnam. Did any of them read the report?

If your friends have proof that My Lai didn't happen, maybe they can provide it.

Or maybe they can prove how the photo of that young girl running naked down a road with napalm burns over most of her body and her village burning in the background was photoshopped.

[BeFree]

3. Kerry told the truth.

Viet Nam was a disaster for us and them. You can take John Kerry's comments as truth.

If America can ever face the facts about Viet Nam, we will have progressed tremendously. It remains to be seen if we ever will, but, with John Kerry as President, America just might.

Kerry On!

[progressivebydesign]

4. Please do your research. Kerry was commenting on admitted atrocities..

.. by people who had already been charged with the crimes. Kerry, rather than be called a traitor and worse, had a hand in ending that war! He saved thousands of lives by risking it all and speaking up.

The GOP knows all of this. They are just partisan monsters hellbent on destroying ANYONE that gets in their way. Max Clelland was attacked, John McCain was attacked. The fact that Kerry was attacked does NOT mean that what he did was false, or wrong (just as it's neither for Clelland or McCain) it means that Kerry GOT IN THE WAY OF WHAT THE GOP WANTS!!!!! Nothing more.

Do your homework. Kerry is a hero, just as the others the GOP (namely Rove and Bush), have tried to take down. Do not focus on what Kerry did or didn't do. Focus on WHY these people are attacking him, and who they've attacked in the past. That will yield even more understanding.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. Read this. The Winter Soldier Investigation

It will make your skin crawl. It's the Winter Soldier investigation/testimony about the atrocities committed against innocent men, women and children. It's disgusting. YES, it's all true.

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary.html

[LostInAnomie]

6. I tried pointing him to that already. He says it has been discredited.

Which I don't know if it really has or not. I am more likely to believe them that the Repig is arguing with.

[Karenina]

9. Just curious...

How old are you? Anyone who would say the "Winter Soldiers" were discredited never got appropriate treatment for his own post-traumatic stress. I was in my 20's when that shit went down and those who did recover were the ones who talked about what had REALLY GONE DOWN. It was NOT pretty. We looked upon those who remained in denial like abused children who felt it their responsibility to "cover" for the guilty parent.

This shit is MESSED UP and needs to be written up as the mental disorder that it is. The SYSTEMATIC ABUSE of Veterans is a sight to behold. When they come out in defense of their ABUSERS and persist after their LIES are unequivocally debunked, it's time to get some SERIOUS help.

McCain, French, etc. ad nauseum... WHY are they falling on their swords for SUCH DISHONORABLE MEN??? Men who would not put themselves on the line??? It's some SICK CO-DEPENDENT SHIT. SICKEST. SHIT. EVER.

[A_Possum]

15. Ask him where it's been discredited

NIXON tried to discredit it, yeah, by claiming that they were not really vets.

He must put forward HOW the Winter Soldiers were discredited, and by whom. Nixon was desperate to discredit the VVAW and lied about them.

[oldcoot]

7. Yes, Kerry is right

One of the things that struck me about Kerry's testimony is that you could find similar information in almost any college history textbook in the country. You might also want to ask your repig friends one question: "If Kerry was lying, why didn't any of the U.S. Senators at the hearings accuse him of lying?" If he was lying, he could have gotten into a lot of trouble.

If you are interested in learning more about the Vietnam War, the television series: "Vietnam, a television history" is a good place to start. This is a 7 volume set and is available on video. This series does address war crimes and torture committed by the U.S. (I think Volume 3 provides detailed accounts of torture).

[DrWeird]

8. The term "baby-killer" wasn't used for nothing.

A lieutenant at My Lai threw babies into a ditch and then shot them. All well known and documented. A lot of hawks at the time supported the guy, thought he was a hero. All he got was a slap on the wrist.

[Cassandra]

10. Try Michael Herr's book "Dispatches"

the only thing really under dispute was how high up knowledge of the really disgusting things went. Certainly free-fire zones and burning villages was official policy at some level of the Army above the grunts.

[Bandit]

11. Atrocities happen in war.. If your friend says they don't......wellll

Vietnam was no exception. It was the first to have full media coverage so the worst aspects were seen nation wide. We saw a Vietnamese General summarily execute a suspected VC and that picture helped define Vietnam plus the picture of the naked little girl running screaming terrified from a Napalm attack upon her village. Free fire Zones were a fact also H&I was a fact. Not a single GI who was in Vietnam will deny that fact. Most countries consider both acts to be a crime. Kerry saw horrors that no one should have to witness. He came home and did everything within his power to stop those horrors. That he should be condemned for that is Very Telling of those who do the condemning.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. War crimes in Vietnam were common.

You won't have to look far. Any number of books and films document them. My Lai was a very small tip on a very large iceberg.

[sandnsea]

13. Free fire zones

JK was commenting on two things, one was that Vietnam was totally out of control and some troops were out of control and that we were going to pay for it for years to come, creating a monster. That's obviously proven to be true. The main point though, was military policy like free fire zones and search & destroy missions. Burning villages. These are against the Geneva Conventions, but the US created the policy and the troops followed it without realizing they were actually committing war crimes. The New Soldier was the kind of soldier who would question their government, like the real heroes of Abu Ghraib who came forward instead early and told the truth. He really needs to make the comparison clearly, it's the policy makers who create the environment for atrocities to happen, not "bad apple" troops.

[kwolf68]

14. My Lai

Absolutely.

[pbg]

16. Sean Hannity tried this one...

..only to have it blow up in his face.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408260004

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh082604.shtml

(scroll down to "Another Fine Answer")

[democrat_patriot]

17. Yes.

It is well documented. Use google or go to the library.

[cidliz2004]

18. Abu Garibe

What has happened already? This is evidence to anyone with just a little bit of logic that war brings out the worst in people. In 40 years will somebody be questioning the actual validity of the Abu Garibe crimes? This is what happens in war, this is why we go to war as a last resort.

The atrocites were common knowledge and widespread in Viet Nam. They were awful and people that are saying that they didn't really exist on a wide scale are either stupid, in denial or liars.

Have your "friends" bring you "proof" that they didn't happen. Remember, whatever proof that you bring them, they will dispute, so have them bring you proof that it didn't happen.