Walt Starr's Scoop on the Democrats.com website

[mourningdove92]

Impostor! Bush Wore a Ribbon he Never Earned!
Here is a photograph published on the Presidential Library site of George H.W. Bush. We can clearly see that in this photograph taken sometime before his promotion to 1st Lt. in 1970, George W. Bush is wearing an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (AFOUA) and a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) just below his pilot wings. According to a just-completed investigation by Walt Starr, Bush's unit (the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron / 147th Fighter Intercept Group) did not receive its first AFOUA until 1975. For weeks, the media has put John Kerry's 5 medals under a microscope. Now we learn that George Bush was so ashamed of his undistinguished service record that he had himself photographed with a ribbon he NEVER earned. That makes Bush an IMPOSTOR. Help us DEMAND the media give as much coverage of Bush's fraudulent ribbon as it has given to John Kerry's genuine combat medals.
http://www.democrats.com/

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. AWESOME!!!!!

WooHoo! WTG, Walt!

How long before the media runs with this? Will they?

[displacedtexan]

2. Remember the "West Wing" episode, in which CJ confronts the General?

He's wearing a medal he didn't earn in photos CJ has.

She asks, "How does that usually go over with the boys, Sir?"

[Frodo]

15. Yeah, that was awesome. But the second part is just as instructive.

The President tells her to drop the issue because (rough quote) "He put himself in harm's way in a conflict I didn't agree with and wouldn't attend. You have to have some respect for that"

In other words "don't question the piddly medal claims of a real veteran when it's obvious that the TOTALITY of his record is honorable"

Would that the CURRENT occupant of that office would show the same respect?

[madmax]

3. Definately worth getting up early

Way to go Walt Starr!!!!!!!!

Please give a :hug: to Mrs. Starr for her patience. :hug:

[democrank]

4. If DU and Democrats.com teamed up

on this, we might be able to do some damage!

[ljm2002]

5. Way to go, Walt!!!

Now let's get some media traction on this puppy...

[madmax]

6. It's time for Media Blaster n/t

[Karenina]

49. Bartcop has it linked!

:toast:

[Spazito]

50. That's great news!

:toast:

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. One question about timing

If the picture was taken in 1970, how did they happen to have a metal that wasn't available until 1975?

Was it given to other units before then and it's just that Bu$h's unit wasn't eligible for this particular metal until then? Just curious?


BTW: Congrats to Walt Starr. Way to go!

[City Lights]

10. Yes, bush's unit wasn't eligible until he was gone. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Thanks

I don't know much about metals and such, so that bit of the story was a little confusing.

[Toots]

16. A Presidential Unit Citation has been around forever

It just hadn't been awarded to that particular unit until '75.

[Walt Starr]

17. The ribbon could have been picked up at the base PX

or the local military surplus store, or from a fellow airman who legitimately earned the ribbon.

Want three purple hearts, a bronze Star with a "V" device and a Silver Star? You can order them online.

"Having" a military award is not the same thingas "earning" the award.

[cynatnite]

20. Military Suplus

When I was a kid we used to go to the army surplus store for camping equipment. They had everything including medals and whatnot.

Cyn:)

[Xipe Totec]

8. George's Medals. Taking A Closer Look

George W. Bush doesn't flaunt his hard-won war medals. Occasionally he will wear them if he is attending a formal or military event, but for the most part, they are tucked away in his trophy cabinet.

Due to a large number of requests for information about his wartime heroism, I began studying his medals. What I found surprised me, and I felt it was my duty as an American to spread these remarkable findings.

http://www.cockeyed.com/citizen/medals/medals.html

/sarcasm off

[Norquist Nemesis]

30. Priceless!

The creativity of people never ceases to amaze/amuse me! LOL

/back on topic

[madmax]

9. Everyone pick a state and media blast this puppy

I sent to NJ and NY.

Here's the link for DU's Media Blaster: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cu/cu.php?az=blaster

[Jack Rabbit]

12. Congratulations, Walt

Well done.

[VolcanoJen]

13. OMG!! That is the coolest!!

Walt, we're all so proud of you!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Frodo]

14. The 147th had an AFOUA in the late 60s (before Bush arrived)

So it shouldn't be the "first" in 1975.

Second problem with this logic? So the theory is that Bush walked around in his first and only unit with a unit award that nobody else was wearing?

Wouldn't that be a little obvious?

[Lex]

18. No he just had a picture taken with it--no one knows if he walked around

.
with it on.

Secondly, Walt checked with the military itself on WHEN that unit was awarded its first AFOUA--it was 1975.

Do you have a link to show that his unit was awarded this AFOUA in the 1960s? I'm sure Walt would want to see that, if so.

[Frodo]

24. Walt's seen it

It was on a previous thread. I suspect it's a difference between the "parent" unit and the "child" unit.

If the parent gets an award, all child units involved in the overall mission (basically everyone) can wear the ribbon. If the child wins it, only members of that unit can.

It's likely that he just found the data (missing earlier this week) of the second unit.

[Toots]

19. No fair using Logic here.

It is all a matter of putting them on the Defense and getting Bush*'s National Guard Service back in the News. It will take a bit of scrambling on their part to discover the Logic you have presented. It will blow over but it may possibly get more people a bit more inquisitive.

[Lex]

21. Walt has addressed the issues presented.

Walt checked and verified when Dubya's unit was awarded its FIRST unit award. 1975--after the picture of Dubya was taken.

[Walt Starr]

22. Please, give a source for the other award

The Air Force History Suppoort Organization, a unit within the Air Force that tracks the history of the units, did not have that information.

I've seen it anecdotally on a single web site that was in no way connected to the 147th FW (formerly the 147th FIG). Please, give me the documentation. I need to see it. I've cited order numbers above. Do you have the order numbers for this alleged award before Bush joined?

I've also seen anecdotal evidence of a third award in 1982. The AFHSO didn't have that data either.

I need order numbers, folks.

[masshole]

25. That bothers me also

According to this page, the 147th won it's first AFOUA in 1966.
http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

This site mentions the 147th winning it's third AFOUA in 1982.
http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

Could the Air Force History support Organization information be wrong or simply incomplete? Why the other mentions of the 147th winning the AFOUA?

I'm guessing the photo shows Bush wearing the AFOUA from that "mysterious" 1966 unit award.



EDIT: just read Walt's response above. Please understand I'm not trying to debunk this story. I'm just asking what I think are obvious questions from what I found googling.

[Frodo]

27. That gets us back to a previous argument

Would he be eligible to wear a unit award that the unit earned BEFORE he joined?

We know that if it was the Army, he would be able to wear it temporarily WHILE he was with that unit (it's the unit showing off to other units). BUT no similar (current) regulation was found for the Air Force. BUT (2) some people who have served IN the AF have specific recollections of that being allowed.

I'm not sure it's resolved. But Walt has demonstrated enough to warrant follow-up. I do not agree we have approached "proof".

[Walt Starr]

51. According to the AFPC, no

Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:[e-mail] or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowdb.cfg/php.exe/enduser/home.php

Problem : Was the AFOUA Authorized for temporary wear?
Problem Details : Was the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award ever authorized for temporary wear under AR 35-10 during the late 1960's to mid 1970's?

Resolution : The AFOUA is not a temporary award.
Resolution Details :
Contact Center Agent: : Ms. Jacqueline Holland
Agents Email Address: : mailto:[e-mail]
Agents Phone Number: : Toll Free 1-800-616-3775; or DSN 665-5000

[Spazito]

29. bush's length of service was from...

27 May 68 to 21 Nov 74, according to his own military biography so he was NEVER eligible to wear the AFOUA ribbon. Only those who "DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTED TO THE MISSION AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE UNIT" are authorized to wear the ribbon.

Even if the Air Force History Support Organization was wrong, which I highly doubt, bush NEVER served during the times you have stated AFOUA ribbons were awarded therefore he was not eligible to wear the ribbon.

IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.

[Frodo]

31. One clarification there

"DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTED TO THE MISSION AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE UNIT" doesn't mean quite what you expect it to. Just about everyone gets it. It's all in how the military defines "contributed". The logistics guys are IMPORTANT ("an army marches on it's stomach"), as are the MPs, or the aircraft mechanics, or or or. Certainly, any pilot in a fighter unit would qualify. Even if he never faced an opponent more deadly than a cumulus cloud.

But the dates in dispute are the BIG issue.

[Spazito]

34. bush was NOT serving during the times the unit was awarded the...

ribbon so he could NOT have contributed in ANY sense to the earning of that ribbon. I don't see how the dates are in dispute, frankly, as all dates put forward as having the unit earning the ribbon do NOT include bush's dates of service from his OWN biography, whether it be 66, Oct 1,73-75 or 82. It is up to bush to show where: (1) his own biography is wrong, that he served during those times which would make his military records wrong as well (2) quote the reg that has allowed him to wear the ribbon in question or (3) admit that he was wearing a ribbon he was not entitled to.

[Frodo]

36. I believe that's what I said?

Plus read #27.

It's the specific recollection of DU Air Force veterans that individuals joining a unit eligible to wear a unit award could add the award while they were with the unit... but could not keep it once they left (so it wouldn't be on permanent records). We KNOW this is the case for the Army (even for AF medals), but have found no similar regs for the AF.

Yes, it would be on Bush's shoulders to prove he had a right to wear it IF a credible accusation/claim is made against him. But it's up to US to pin that down to a certainty BEFORE the accusation is made... to avoid the obvious embarrassment involved with being slammed down.

[Spazito]

37. LOL Specific recollections are not proof of anything...

and isn't an instruction from the Air Force Personnel Center to be considered official? Here is the Instruction numbered 36-2803:

IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.

Additionally, there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personnel.

[Frodo]

40. "ISN'T" yes.... but what about "WASN'T"? That's all that matters.

You're aware that these things change right?

The Air Force was relatively new at the time (about 20 years old, so many of it's officers were FROM the Army - heck, many pilots went to West Point and Annapolis since the AF resort Academy had been around for about a decade) and may have used similar regulations. It's going to be awfully embarrassing if we find out that's all that there is to this.

[Spazito]

43. Again, until such a reg allowing bush to wear the ribbon is found...

and, to date, NO ONE has found one, Walt's evidence stands. I have no doubt the media that has picked up this issue will thoroughly investigate whether there is a reg allowing this before they go to print or they become responsible for any gaps in their report.

[Frodo]

45. It just doesn't work that way. Think about what you're saying.

People have to prove the medals they wear are earned rather than the person making the accusation being assumed correct in absence of such research? Doesn't this play right into the swiftvets hands? Kerry has to cross every "t" and dot every "i"?

It flies in the face of some logic. His official military bio photo from his record shows him wearing a ribbon NOBODY in his ONLY unit was eligible to wear? And a ribbon that would convey no substantial honor on the INDIVIDUAL, only the UNIT?

Nobody has found ANY regs from the period. Do we assume there WERE none?

[Spazito]

48. As I said, the evidence Walt has collected is out there...

any media that picks it up will research Walt's evidence to see if it proves out. If it does they will do their story, if not, it is a DU thread. Either way, the question is out there based on solid research done by Walt. With reference to Kerry, Kerry didn't do the research, Walt, a private citizen, did.

[Walt Starr]

60. I've been trying to track down actual regulations from the time period

If anybody else tracks them down, let me know. I need verification of what the AFPC is saying.

[unfrigginreal]

33. Where did you get the Nov 74 date from?

I thought he was discharged Oct. 1, 1973, even though he skipped out in Sept. 73.

[Spazito]

35. Very good question...

that date was provided by the bush administration in his military biography as Walt posted in his original post detailing his investigation.

[Walt Starr]

54. November of 74 was the date he completed inactive service at

HQ ARPC in Denver.

[terrya]

23. KUDOS, Walt! And is there any way to get this to "Countdown"?

This is something Keith Olbermann will want to talk about.

This scoop is so awesome. Thank you, Walt Starr, for all of your hard work.

[City Lights]

42. I sent it to Countdown and Hardball, along with a host of others.

It never hurts to have othes send it too.

Anybody think a separate thread should be started to log the outlets we've contacted?

[Rose Siding]

46. I sent it to Dana Milbank at the Post

He ran with the smaller scale Amish "God talks to me" story. He even got WH comment on it.

[City Lights]

55. I also sent it to Michael Dobbs, Howard Fineman, Josh Marshall,

CBS Evening News and Deborah Norville.

[farmbo]

26. Walt "Shining" Starr...Rove's worst nightmare!

Since the photo in question was taken in 1970, the investigation into his phoney ribbons just might inspire the press to look more closely into his whereabouts at the time.

Great work!

[quaoar]

28. Good work, Walt

I sent an email to James Carville with the links. I know him from when we were both unknowns in Baton Rouge. I'm still unknown. LOL

[Blue_Roses]

32. WOW!

GREAT JOB WALT! :bounce:

Hope to see you on Hardball! :)

[HFishbine]

38. Hey Walt

Who was the "Big Media Person" who wanted to talk to you last night?

[grasswire]

61. hush hush

Have patience and understand that may never result in a story from this guy. A reporter can't make decisions for editors or executives to run a story, no matter how glamorous or celebrated the reporter may be. Suffice it to say for now that the name is hot.

[Tennessee Gal]

39. Any bets on how long that picture stays there?

Here is the link:



Can someone please screen capture it?

on edit: can someone please explain why the link does not come through on my post?

[merh]

41. I have it saved on my computer.

I keep photos, they oddly enough can disappear within a moments notice. :shrug:

[NightOwwl]

44. Do I send the media a link to a particular thread, or

links to the other sites (like democrats.com) that are running the story? I'd like The Sacramento Bee get their hands on this.

[Javaman]

47. sent out a blast :)

[NightOwwl]

53. Are you talking about the new DU media page?

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that still doesn't answer my question. I want to send The Bee everything that Walt has discovered in a nice succinct package. What I need is an answer to my original question. Apology in advance if I am misunderstanding your answer.

[John_H]

52. The best peice of journalism EVER conducted on DU. I'm shocked

that very few of the DUers who perport to work in journalism have bothered to post in any of his threads, if not to assist, at least to publicly give walt the professional recognition he deserves.

[Joanne98]

59. No. The best piece of journalism ever to be conducted on DU was

The Diebold files. Now that was awesome. :)

[ClassWarrior]

56. Great job Walt!! You do the Windy City proud.

[Ducks In A Row]

57. Damn Al Franken is a repeat, let's all email Randi Rhodes!!!

[marlakay]

58. I understand now!

I asked my husband what the deal with the ribbon is and explained what DU was doing, he said that he was told (he was in Nam) that if you ever wore a ribbon or medal that didn't belong to you you got a dishonorable discharge. So if it can be proven that is what Bush should get. He said its a very serious charge. You probably all know this but I was like thinking so what he wore something daddy gave him.

[Joanne98]

62. google search for Bush+AFOUA+ribbon 436 hits

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Bush%2BAFOUA%2Bribbon&btnG=Google+Search

IT'S WORKING. HE'S IN GOOGLE PRISON !!!!!!!:):):):)