OK I’m playing with a theory re: Walt Starr’s latest finding..

[Junkdrawer]

His finding was that, in daddy’s library, hangs a photo of 2nd Lt. G. W. Bush wearing a unit ribbon that wasn’t awarded to the unit until 1975...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=675299&mesg_id=675299&page=

Now, we all suspect that Dubya went AWOL in 1972. And there’s considerable evidence that Dishonorable Discharge paper work was floating around http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=177. And Dubya went to Grad School late in 1973.

Consider this scenario:

Dubya goes AWOL for about a year. Sometime late in 1973 his daddy gets a call from a friendly commander that his son is about to get a Dishonorable Discharge. The shit hits the fan, and a deal is cut: Dubya is busted back to 2nd Lt. and must serve the year he missed. Going back to Texas on weekends, Dubya finally finishes his obligation (perhaps in a back office somewhere) and gets his Honorable Discharge in 1975. A picture is taken and daddy hangs it in his study.

Now, when Dubya decides on a political career, something has to be done. So his record is sanitized . (Sloppily some say)

Now, the reason I like this theory is that, in the 1973/75 no one thought Dubya would have a political career. And the idea of “making him do the right thing” fits my experience with young men with “Big Daddies”.

If I’m right, perhaps the proof of Dubya’s AWOL lies in asking TANGers of 1974/1975 if they remember Dubya.

[Mz Pip]

1. President dress-up

Looks like he practiced in front of a mirror a long time ago.
MzPip
:dem:

[cthrumatrix]

67. I'm sure Fuax is running with this

[jimshoes]

2. That's a great idea

Very credible and worth looking in to. Nice job Junkdrawer.

[Malva Zebrina]

3. Could be--that is quite complicated, but who knows-he has no respect

for anything at all, we know that, but given his narcissistic personality, I would be inclined to think that he thought his picture would look paltry with only one ribbon on there and decided to fudge it to impress someone,maybe even himself, and somehow got a hold of that ribbon before it was awarded. Where would it have come from if it was not issued until 75? I wonder where her got it Maybe it was photoshopped on there. Would not be a difficult thing to do.

[Jane Austin]

12. I just figured he threw up on his own uniform after a night of drinking,

and had to borrow somebody else's for a photograph session that was scheduled. :)

Occam's Razor anyone?

[cheezus]

35. that's the best explaination ever

i love it

[sub.theory]

4. It's certainly possible

The best thing about Walt's work is that if this gets out into the mainstream, the Bush campaign is going to be forced to do some answering regarding the charges of Bush's AWOL. I think they are going to have to release his full military records. Once those are out we can see if things don't match up.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Getting Walt's work out only opens up questions...

I like it. :evilgrin:

[KittyWampus]

5. Sounds Feasible As A Theory Junkdrawer.

onus would be on Junior to explain, though :evilgrin:

[Junkdrawer]

7. I've know the sons of several Important Men...

and they all were pushed mercilessly by their dads.

He goes AWOL and daddy just gets him an 'Honorable Discharge'???

Nah. A boot up the ass (after helping him clean up the mess) seems WAY more likely.

[HFishbine]

30. And it would explain

Junior's compulsion to one-up his daddy in Iraq.

[Spazito]

6. Interesting theory!

This would re-enforce the adage that it's the cover-up that ends up doing the most damage. Given that documents released say bush was honorably discharged in 73, they will either have to admit bush is wearing a ribbon he did NOT earn or admit that the "official" history of bush in the NG is bogus and his paperwork was "cleansed". Either way, he would be TOAST, imo.

[JPJones]

8. Very good analysis. Plausible. Puts all the pieces together . n/t

[Walt Starr]

10. It would explain some things

:shrug:

Maybe I should start some digging to see what I can find online.

:evilgrin:

[cynatnite]

11. I doubt we'll have to push you very hard. LOL n/t

[Junkdrawer]

13. Say it this way...

"Either he didn't earn the ribbon, or that photo was taken AFTER 9/30/1975"

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

15. He looks way too young for 1975

seriously he does.

[Junkdrawer]

16. Does he have long sideburns in the photo???

And do we have any photos with dates that we could compare?

[Guaranteed]

23. Yeah. He was born in 1946, so he'd be 28 or 29 in the

photo if it was 1975.

[Carni]

28. I agree with you

I tried to find photos of him to compare it with on the net and couldn't. I can only find about 4 photos of bush from his guard stint.

[Guaranteed]

22. Excellent.

Just excellent.

Man, I can't believe Dem Strategist left. We've got some good minds around here.

[Carni]

27. The bottom line is the ribbon wasn't his and/or the photo was taken later?

Do I have this right?

Bush couldn't have earned the ribbon because his unit was awarded the ribbon AFTER he left service in Oct 73 so he either wore one his unit didn't earn until he had left the guard... or the photo was taken in 1975 and he was given the ribbon after the fact for one day's service in 73?

Do I have the full jist of this?

I have been mulling this over all night and I keep going back to the censored bush discharge document.

Height, weight, marital status, date of birth, service number and number of dependants have been blacked out--intitially I assumed the height and weight were blacked out so bush could continue to claim he is taller than he is, but after the findings about these ribbons I am sensing something larger about this.

Basically nothing in his documents (and now his photos) matches up in general.

My instinct tells me the photo with the bogus ribbon was taken for PR purposes earlier than 73(didn't they use his sorry ass in a recruitment poster?)

I don't think that discharge record is his...the typing where his name is inserted doesn't even lay on the lines with everything else
(not describing that properly you'll have to look at it to see what I mean)What I find puzzling about my theory however is why they wouldn't just forge a whole new consistent document? Although in the early 70's I highly doubt anyone thought this shiftless clown would one day be President.

I wanted to add one other thing...I have searched the web and I can only find about 4 pictures of this idiot while he was in the guard.

Specifically I cannot find a group photo of him WITH his unit which strikes me as very strange.

SOMETHING had to have happened in the early 70's that took him away from guard and whatever it was obviously a big cover up ensued afterwards--JMO but I think there is something bigger than the AWOL here!

[Junkdrawer]

29. I think we're on EXACTLY the same wavelength...

Too much credibility is being put on the released docs.

Every time I hear "well, that can't be right because his records say...", I want to cringe.

HE'S LYING. The documents are going to be a mixture of fact and fantasy. Go at it with that in mind...

[Carni]

31. I agree there's something funky about this

Then they "lost" his pay docs but found them a week later?

It's almost like they found some other old records that matched what was on other forgeries about him, so they decided to go with them.

I am also taking hell on another string I started because his 1976 arrest record lists his birthdate as 7-6-76 (instead of 1946)

I realize it's probably just a typo but AGAIN with the birthdate being wrong! (The only other thing I can think of is that dumbo was born earlier than what is stated--who can tell!)

[AirAmFan]

43. Records from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver have much

more credibility than records from the Texas Air National Guard (TANG), especially ARPC records released before Dubya was inaugurated in 2001.

Dubya had literally DECADES as Congressman's son and Governor to make sure TANG records did not conflict with the impression of himself Karen Hughes wanted to project. Orders from TANG even came from the Governor's office, and Dan Bartlett was Dubya's liaison.

However, a Texas Congressman or a Texas Governor would have much less "pull" at Air Reserve headquarters, especially before Rove and company took over the White House. There were substantial releases of ARPC records before January 2001. Even after that date, altering ARPC records would have been difficult given the control of document-management experts who followed established procedures to fulfill thousands of requests.

If you completely distrust ALL records, how would you ever establish ANYTHING to anyone's satisfaction?

[Junkdrawer]

44. Well...

Suppose Dubya's friends fed True Data and False Data to Denver. If there's a request for documents, wouldn't both be returned?

And if Dubya's agents intercede, couldn't the True Data be filtered out?

By now, however, I wonder if ANY True Data remains in Denver.

[AirAmFan]

49. HQ in Denver didn't just passively collect TANG reports and file

them away. They apparently actually READ some reports and applied DoD policies in deciding whether to accept or to reject them. They rejected at least two crucial requests regarding Dubya--

--His initial request to transfer to a non-flying unit in Alabama, AFTER he'd allegedly already moved to Alabama (see the "doc5.gif" link at http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp )

--His last known Effectiveness report submission from TANG (see "doc12.gif")

[fob]

50. Has anyone gone to ghwbush*s lie-brary to see if the photo is

dated/credited there?

[EST]

14. I recall big barb douche talking on an interview about how

surprised she was that it was W instead of Jebbie. Rove needed a more pliable puppet he could develop. Must have been quite a summit meeting.

[EST]

17. Uh, I hate to rain on our parade, but Douchie put out an order

some time again ago forbidding ANYONE from talking about it outside the pentagon records office.

[Must_B_Free]

18. spinning the bowl

why don't we just imagine that the illuminati conspiracy was planned 30 + years in advance and in 1972 he was ordered to wear those highly coveted "marksmanship" and the future awarded "unit ribbon" for his campaign against John Kerry in 2004?

[Junkdrawer]

19. Kick

:kick:

[Guaranteed]

20. NICE theory...

Somebody oughta start asking around, like you're saying.

Good brain on you, my friend.

[SoCalDem]

21. He's never responsible for anything he does..

Whatever the true story, it will somehow be "someone else's" fault..

For a guy who preaches "personal responsibility", he never learned how to manage it for himself..

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. I think it fails on several points.

1. There is no record of being demoted, which would be a big deal in military circles.

2. He ran for Congress in 1977, so it is unlikely "no one thought he would have a political career" in 1975. Politics runs in his family.

3. There are pay records that indicate a flurry of days worked in 1973 to quickly fulfill missed required days.

[Junkdrawer]

25. No one talks much about the 1977 Congressional run...

Thanks.

I just wish we could DATE that photo somehow...

[AirAmFan]

26. Your theory might work, but the extra service would have had to end

by 11/21/74.

On paper, sometime after October 1 1973, Dubya's military service was extended for six months, to November 21 1974.

There are many early Guard documents that put the end of Dubya's Military Service Obligation (MOS) at May 26, 1974, six years after his application. His discharge from the Texas Air National Guard and tranfer to the Air Force Reserve (on October 1 1973) still had this end date. See the "ang22.gif" link at http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp . Item 32 ('Remarks') of the ANG22 discharge certificate says he "has completed 5 years, 4 months, and 5 days" toward a six-year military service obligation. That credit would put the six year point at 5/26/74, right on schedule.

But the documentation for his honorable discharge from the Reserves (see the third from last page of http://www.texasturkey.us/backup/bushdd214.pdf ) is dated November 21 1974, SIX MONTHS AFTER the long-scheduled May 26 1974 date. Reserve Order CB-6892 from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver says, "the above named officer is relieved from assignment and honorably discharged from all appointments in the United States Air Force.

However, there's no real evidence Dubya did ANYTHING besides CORRESPOND with the military after May 1972. After that date, are no effectiveness ratings in his file documenting any actual attendance at Guard activities anywhere. Anything COULD have happened during that period, but there's no evidence that anything did.

[merh]

32. That is a very real possibility.

Here is a photo of the * klan from 1966 and a link to a collection of photos of the clown-n-chief.

<>


<>

My favorite as the boy kind proudly sits in the saddle (only photo of * on a horse)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/images/campaign2000/bush/bush_photo2.htm

[Junkdrawer]

33. CONFIRMATION FROM HIS STATE DEPARTMENT BIO !!!!....

From his State Department Bio:

George W. was commissioned as a second lieutenant and spent two years on active duty, flying F102 fighter interceptors. For almost four years after that, he was on a part-time status, flying occasional missions to help the Air National Guard keep two of its F-102s on round-the-clock alert.


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/2004/02/28/bush_bio_on_web_inflates_guard_service/

[Carni]

34. Junkdrawer/ regarding the original post by you on this string

I think you are definitely on to something.

I bought "Fortunate Son" when Softskull first released it (Hatfield--the guy that showed up dead in a motel room? After he was smeared to hell and back in 1999 and the book was initailly shelved and burned then rereleased...yeah, THAT guy!)

Anyway I just hauled it out and studied the chapters regarding project PULL in Texas and bush's suspected cocaine arrest and without getting into a lot of detail or retyping the whole chapter...

Hatfield claims in the book that he called the woman in charge of Project PULL (she was BTW in charge of that center for 30 some years)
Hatfield states he questioned her about bush doing service at Project Pull and she claimed that she never remembered seeing bush there at the program, when he pressed her and asked if bush was given community service elsewhere in Texas, she said "no comment"

Point being, after reading that portion of the book, it would sort of confirm the theory that he didn't do his service there, but may have somewhere else- Hatfield specifically asked about somewhere else in Texas, but that doesn't mean the clues aren't all elsewhere.

Hatfield's main informant on the matter of the cocaine arrest (supposedly Rove according to rumor) gave him a bill of goods about the whole incident and sent him off on a wild goose chase according to the sepculation I have read since 2000.

*Edited because I meant to say elsewhere and said Alabama about the clues regarding bush's community service/possible drug bust.

[Junkdrawer]

37. Good news / Bad news...

Good News: I'll bet there are a ton of interesting tidbits in local Texas newspapers of the period (1973->1976) that would show the "official" TANG documents Dubya released are a lie.

Bad News: Because they're from 1973->1976, they're not going to be online. Microfiche anyone?

[Carni]

39. Unfortunately I am nowhere near Texas

But the more I think about this the more I think the cocaine bust is a lost leader.

I am not doubting the dummy did drugs but I just don't think that info would have been circulated around by people connected to him.
(by circulating it they could dispute it later and make Hatfield look stupid and noncredible)

Besides that, I would think that a cocaine bust could have been handled by daddy at the local level with no community service for dumbo...so I am thinking more along the lines that he really pissed someone off in the military with one of his stunts.

I ran across a net rumor (RUMOR mind you) that bush crashed a plane when he was drunk and in the guard.

I am convinced there is a cover-up just not sure what it was for.

[Junkdrawer]

40. Well, as you noted, Hatfield said it was Rove that fed him the cocaine...

story. That always struck me funny. Classic misdirection: Investigate this juicy non-story. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

[Carni]

47. Yeah I know

I just also noticed today that Hatfield mentions Scott McClellan in the book (he was the bush campaign spokesperson)

Hatfield states that when he phoned McClellan and asked about the cocaine charges McClellan said "oh shit" and then said "no comment"

[Junkdrawer]

48. Fake Bio with Fake Warts...

Hiding What??????????????????????????????????????????

[DemBones DemBones]

54. Oh, that was Scotty? When I read "Fortunate Son,"

I didn't know who Scott McClellan was.

They should have run an honest Bush son. Oh, wait. Never mind.

[Carni]

66. Yes! Scotty is mentioned on page 314

I had no idea who he was when I first read this book either!

[David Zephyr]

52. Does Karl Rove Have Any Criminal Records or Arrest Records Out There?

And where in the hell is James Bath?

[hexola]

36. That's why I was quesitoning the dates of the photos

Walt's dating of the photos is suspect...

It looks like a later photo to me...he doesnt even have to get busted back to 2nd Lt. That scribble in the fax could be a mistake.

It could be the BushCo. misdated the photo, or didn't research it well enough...

[NV1962]

38. Adding injury to insult: what if * was convicted, delaying his discharge?

From what I read in "Fortunate Son" is that Jim Hatfield was awfully close to nailing down his hunch that W was busted for substance (coke?) abuse and convicted / forced to do community service in a Houston center... If I remember correctly, the woman in charge of that program in Houston in which W served is still alive, but has refused so far to clarify the exact circumstances of W's otherwise pretty much inexplicable -- completely "out of character" -- community service work there...

Could that drugs conviction be what got in the way of completing his TANG stint?

Could that be the missing link?

Again, I'm working from memory here - but unless I'm mistaken one of Hatfield's key assumptions was that W was convicted in a sweetheart deal, whereby his conviction was buried / kept under wraps... With later DUI busts, that would also explain why W was so hellbent on shredding his original driver's license once he became TX governor, getting a completely clean new one.

[Carni]

41. The speculation after the book came out

was that one of Hatfield's three main informants was Karl Rove and that he fed Hatfield the info about the cocaine bust to throw him off the trail.

The whole thing is maddening and with Hatfield dead there certainly isn't any way to ask him!

[NV1962]

42. As I said, I'm talking top of mind here, but

allegedly, Karl Rove had fed Jim Hatfield partially correct information, deliberately mixing truth with lies, so as to entice Hatfiled to publish his findings and then have him discredited with the "false" bits.

As I recall it, Hatfield didn't reveal his "deep throat" source, but while reading his book, Rove immediately leapt to mind.

Anyway: as I understand it, his source (Rove) immediately "opened up" giving Hatfield all sorts of information (again, a mixed bag of lies and truths) once that source found out on what hot trail Hatfield was working, especially after Hatfield made the connection with W's Houston community service time and mentioned it to that source.

If only a Houston-based DUer could get in touch with that lady and persuade her to come forward with whatever the truth behind that chapter in W's life is!

[Carni]

46. Whoever Hatfield's informant was

(I mean the main one that he went on the fishing trip with)

The "informant" chewed tobacco because Hatfield makes a comment like "he had his ever present tobacco cup at hand" and Hatfield says the informant knew bush from his Midland Texas days.

Actually I immediately thought of Don Evans this afternoon after I reread that section of the book.

I tried googling and couldn't get any hits for Rove or Evans being tobacco chewers (just Dubya, which I knew)

The woman in charge of Martin Luther King Jr's community center was Madge Bush (supposedly no relation)

I am just shooting out ideas too because this whole thing is so complex that it gives me a headache!

It is damn chilling however to read Hatfield's claims about his deep throats telling him to keep an eye over his shoulder at all times!

[DemBones DemBones]

55. If Texas is like Georgia, and I think it is quite a bit similar,

then most of the guys chew tobacco or dip snuff, at least when they're young-ish.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

53. Good idea, but not a job for amateurs

I'm sure she has been contacted thousands of times and is sick of it.

On the other hand, someone might be able to come up with a completely innovative approach.

[AirAmFan]

45. Yes, Madge Bush (no relation) was the only director ever for

the community center where Dubya supposedly did his community service in order to have the arrest expunged. A supposed trip to Alabama to work on a campaign would make a great resume cover story for the time community service took up. And surely a drug bust would entail having a physical that made Dubya aware of his vulnerability should he take a flight physical for TANG. That would explain why he disappeared from the Guard in May 1972 and never had any proof of any actual Guard service after that date.

For online speculation about the drug bust, just google "'Madge Bush' 'Community Center' Houston" or "Eufaula connection". You'll get a manageable number of "hits" in each case.

[whalerider55]

51. adding to the theory

i posted earlier for a little help on these dates.
as a substance abuse professional, (former) it would make perfect sense for a drug bust to mess up his TANG status, for the medical to go undone, for the missing months to have been spent in a detox/rehab hospital (private, of course) and a sealed court record indicating that W would need to do community service to make restitution to the community. hence the day care center.

detox is ussually 14-30 days, rehab is usually 90-190 days.

it would take a lot or sweeping to keep this under the rug, but it was doable- the sloppiness we are uncovering may be a result of no one \ever thinking the records would be as accesible as they are, and no need for them to be seamless, b/c who woulda thunk this a cokehead would ever become leader of the freeworld?

help here?

whalerider55

[DemBones DemBones]

56. No help, just agreement with your thinking.

Is that what Hatfield suggested, too, or did I just get that on my own from what he wrote?

Back in the early seventies, I don't think the family expected George to go into politics at all. Mama may have been holding out hope, but I think Poppy saw Dubya as a loser.

I was surprised by "Fortunate Son," by the way. It wasn't unsympathetic to GWB, wasn't a hatchet job.

[whalerider55]

58. never read hatfield

my own thinking on this comes from life and vocational experience, observation, deduction.

sometimes, you can tell what someone threw into the pond by observing the ripples.

addiction causes unmistakeable ripples in the behavior of many around you. add money and power to that situation, and things get very interesting.

wish i had the time to track this down, but this theory would explain a lot. because... it tells us a lot about W as a person, and can account for much of his behavior in life and as president, in additiuon to fillingin some real blanks in his history.

whalerider55

[Carni]

57. What dates are you specifically looking for?

EOM

[whalerider55]

59. exactly...

when (what dates) bush was at the day care center, how many hours he was there, what times of day he was there (was his appearence regularly scheduled, for example)

the dates would help to tell if this was a specifically ordered block of time- was it something he kept up with,

what else was he doing at the time- was he in texas, or alabama, or mexico...

could what he was doing to make a living have allowed him to "volunteer?.
what was his job there ...
then, did the center accept court ordered volunteers (a druggie? i wouldn't think so, but a druggie with a congressmen dad, well...)

ohh, a lot of questions...

whalerider55

[Xipe Totec]

60. Posted A Call For Help in the Texas Board

Now that we have an address for Dubya in 1972.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=180&topic_id=3759&mesg_id=3759

[whalerider55]

61. X

gracias.

i'm a newbie, so i'm still a technopeasent at at navigating these boards, so i'll try to keep track of how the info gets shaken out.

it's only a theory, but it seems to intrinsically make sense to me.

would it have been possible for the arrest and court record to be expunged upon completion of "restitution"?

lotta questions. but if you don'ty ask'em, the bastards will lie straight to your face.

whalerider55

[Junkdrawer]

62. I wonder what Standard Procedure is re: the National Guard in this case...

are there things like "treatment leaves" that could still lead to an Honorable Discharge, but would have pushed the discharge date out into 1975 or 1976?

[whalerider55]

63. good thought... sounds like...

something to ask paul lukasiak.
i would think that something like a medical leave "could" have happened; but it is hard to believe that no paper trail hints at it.

the early 70's were not the most enlightened time in terms of drug/alcohol treatment and rehab-- it was still considered a "morality" issue then.

i'm with his desertion theory- sterotypical addict behavior to make a mess and get bailed by enablers. and then make another mess and get bailed... and another...

you get the picture.

whalerider55

[Junkdrawer]

64. re: morality issue...remember the double standard...

If it's a poor kid - instant Dishonorable Discharge

If it's a "Fortunate Son" - treatment and a "second chance" (and a third, and a fourth and...)

[whalerider55]

65. ahh yes...

i made the mistake of assuming a level playing field.
silly me.
whalerider55

[Junkdrawer]

68. Here's a picture from the 1978 run for Congress...

http://bushcollectors.freeservers.com/georgewbushcongress.html

Wish I could see what he was saying about his Guard duty then...:evilgrin: