Why won't you release your military records, John McCain?

[FatDave]

Do you have something to hide? It seems that as heavily as you're leaning on your military experience in this campaign, the public would have a right to examine your record.

So why the steadfast refusal to let us see? Are you afraid there's something there that would reflect poorly on you? Was any part of your service less than honorable? Or were your records simply lost in a fire at some point? I understand that often happens to veterans who later run for office as republicans.

At any rate, if you refuse to release your records I have no choice but to assume there is something pretty bad in there. Surely that's a misconception you are eager to correct, right? Right?

[FatDave]

1. (please rec if you think this question needs asking)

[KittyWampus]

16. hell, he never even REALLY released his health records. He just did a photo-op with

a couple of mediawhores and pretended they had meaningful access.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

19. yes let's see his Military and health records!

[bjobotts]

32. Go to www.vietnam veterans against johnmccain.com and get the other story

It's one word but site wouldn't let me post it in this bar without spaces in the url...it's www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com check it out

[WeDidIt]

2. K&R

Time for the Senator to come clean.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. k/r

[liberal N proud]

4. The M$M should be asking these questions

But they are more worried about faith and abortion.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

91. call them, email them kick up a fuss!

[gateley]

5. I assumed he HAD released his military records - this is interesting!

Was he reprimanded for any of the jets he crashed? Anybody know?

And...what can we do to get the buzz out about this and make him have to respond?

Recommend!

[TwilightGardener]

7. I don't know about all of his records, but he had his POW records

permanently sealed by law.

[doublethink]

11. Here's a link ......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6657378

Here's another to the possible reasons why?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6584956

And a great video ..... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x171237


There are a few more in the DU archives but this might get you started ..... peace.

K&R :kick:

[gateley]

17. Thanks!! nt

[TwilightGardener]

6. You must only accept what McCain says about himself. You must not

examine actual official documents or read actual accounts from the record. Because a POW who cheated on his wife and the nation (Keating Five) would never, ever lie or make shit up--POW absolves all. To even DESIRE to open the file is questioning his integrity and honor. You must simply take him at his word--he is not to be questioned, ever.

[BOSSHOG]

12. That's how I used to evaluate my Sailors

Knowing absolutely nothing about them except what they told me. Not!

[TwilightGardener]

14. Isn't that how we're ALL evaluated for a job or promotion? When we

go to job interviews, do we even bother to bring a resume or references, or fill out an application? No, we simply tell them about ourselves, our qualifications, and how wonderful we are, and they buy it and hire us on the spot--no verification needed. That's what John McCone expects, too--it's perfectly reasonable.

[bushisanidiot]

8. Let them (repukes) eat crow

They questioned Kerry's record, but McCain's military records are kept secret from the public??

typical republican hypocrisy!

[bertman]

97. BRILLIANT!!! Bushisanidiot, you have hit on a fantastic 527 ad.

Yo!! 527 people are you paying attention?

Yo!! Over here!! Yo!!

**edited to add a Yo.

[wmbrew0206]

9. This should be required by law.

If you are running for President and have served in the military you should have to release all of your military records.

[lisainmilo]

102. Agreed...n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

113. I agree.

[zulchzulu]

10. McCain made them classified in 1992

Good for him!

:sarcasm:

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Complete Medical Records too... including his PSTD records

It is well documented that the sort of treatment McCain endured can harm the mind. A 1989 study in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, one of many studies on the subject, showed that a third of American World War II prisoners of war met diagnostic criteria for PTSD fully 40 years after their release.

In 1999, McCain responded to the questions about his mental health by allowing selected reporters to peruse 1,500 pages of his health records dating back to his release from Hanoi in 1973. Reporters were not permitted to photocopy any of the documents. The reporters who looked at the records did not describe any mention of a PTSD diagnosis. However, they failed to note that it would have been impossible for McCain to receive such a diagnosis -- since the term "post-traumatic stress disorder" was not in use until seven years after McCain's release from captivity. The term first appeared in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1980.

There are behaviors associated with the candidate that would be consistent with a diagnosis of PTSD. Author Robert Timberg mentions McCain's intense explosions of anger --- a hallmark sign of lingering mental trauma from war -- in his book "John McCain: An American Odyssey." Timberg describes the episodes as "an eruption of temper out of all proportion to the provocation." Timberg, who McCain has said "knows more about me than I do," wrote that McCain's sudden fury is a result of Vietnam coming "back to haunt him." McCain has himself described having an adverse reaction to the sound of jangling keys, which reminds him of his Vietnam jailers. McCain also told doctors that during solitary confinement he had strayed pretty "far out" and had referred to himself as "mentally deteriorating."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/05/22/mccain/index1.html

[FatDave]

21. That 1999 event sounds very much like the one with his medical records earlier this year

After much goading by the Obama campaign, he allowed thousands of pages of his health records to be reviewed by reporters for a couple hours. No copies provided or allowed. Could they even take notes? I don't remember. At any rate, it wasn't exactly a thorough vetting.

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. Less than one hour and no they couldn't read them all and his

Naval records were not included.

It was a bullshit revealing of McCain, I've known and treated PTSS, it doesn't go away.

[LiberalFighter]

57. Examined by reporters without medical or naval experts? Hah

[nc4bo]

15. I would like to know why they aren't released.

Is there something to hide in them?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

20. they must be bad

[oldskool]

18. It wouldn't have anything to do with the

USS Forrestal would it? McWet Start

[FatDave]

22. The story of him starting the Forrestal fire doesn't seem credible to me.

I wonder if anybody's interviewed any of the survivors lately though.

[tbyg52]

23. It isn't. I chedked it out on military message boards a while back.

(Didn't save the links, sorry.)

There was no love lost on him, but there was general agreement that there was no physical way he could have started it.

Edited for traditional stupid typo.

[chknltl]

24. THAT fire was not started by him.

The errant missile hit HIS jet-he was lucky to get out of that nightmare alive-many good sailors were not so lucky. :patriot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

Yes I am aware that there are some controversial thoughts on how he might have been implicated in that disaster and that his dad may have helped get any relevant data squashed BUT I think that mCcain's speculative connection to this fire is one of the taboo subjects NOT suitable for use against him by us at this time. Calling mCcain a Muslim might be OK though, he wants to raise our taxes too!

[liberation]

35. Actually it was...

He "wet started" his skyhawk, he however miscalculated how close the next plane in the sequence was, and the flame of kerosene from McCain's jet ignited the rocket in the plane he was trying to "hotdog."

McCain seems to have been at best a reckless pilot. He already had a few planes crashed, and he had a major incident in Spain where he severed some main power lines while flying recklessly well below any regulation allowed. So this fits his pattern of idiot flyboy... In fact when he was shot down, he did not even eject properly and thus he ended up with his broken arms (which makes you wonder since he had already crashed a few times, so he had more experience in live ejections that most other aviators in the US fleet at that time).



Unless you would like to pretend he was really *that* unlucky. I rather believe the pattern of incompetence. The guy should have never been allowed to fly period, he proved to be a liability. Hadn't he been born into a family of admirals he would have been lucky to be on board as a janitor.

Seriously, we are pretty much done as a society when such a monumental f*ckup as McCain is a viable contender for the Whitehouse, fresh on the heels of 8 of the most monumental f*ckup years of administration in this country's history.

[chknltl]

38. I was aware that many feel mCcain caused that fire.

Perhaps it truly was the reason for the fire perhaps no. I've no legs to stand on in a debate about this-which actually is my point here. If I add this to my talking points against mCcain, I could be accused (and rightly so), of being a 'lefty liberal swift-boater'! Now I am not afraid of being called names and stuff but I'd like to think that we are a bit above all this. Some would say that getting down in the gutter with the gutter rats is the best way to fight back but honestly it is not a fight I am accustomed to. (I AM having fun calling him a Muslim though but I use it to illustrate a point unrelated to this.)

When it comes to that Forrestal fire, it is good that we remember the incident, the sailors who lost their lives and the brave men who fought to save their ship. The official report-manipulated or not, does not I suspect, pin the blame on mCcain. There are plenty of folks who feel that he DID indeed start it exactly as you presented.

I know that I could be wrong about this, that as you point out mCcain was a reckless fool of a pilot and that this aspect of his life is relevant-that it needs to be on the table...I just don't feel right about it, especially without better proof that his hot-starting the Skyhawk is what actually caused that rocket to go off. For me, until that record gets changed, I'll be sticking with an errant rocket hitting mCcain's jet as the cause of that fire. What caused that rocket to launch is an unresolved mystery.

[liberation]

92. I am a firm believer that people deserve the benefit of the doubt...

... however, they have to earn that doubt sort of speak.

When you are dealing with a person who was a true danger as a pilot, be it for his reckless behavior as a hot headed flyboy, or as a truly incompetent officer who barelly managed to graduate at the bottom of his class and should have never been inside a cockpit had not been for his connections. Then I am afraid, but there needs to be a big f*cking shadow of a doubt cast on this individual.

Is it fair? I don't particularly care honestly, a person like McCain who has gotten away with so much needs to have his "rockets" cool off a bit IMHO.


Until he doesn't release his military records, I will keep the doubt cast on him.

[chknltl]

140. His military record is indeed something we can go after!

Especially his military medical records! America is considering this man for an important job-his health should be a factor of consideration. Going after his military medical records should IMO be on the table. How do we know that the man is mentally stable enough to lead this country after all those years as a POW being tortured-(OMG by the 'commies' no less!!!)

If I may get back to the Forrestal/Swiftboating point again though. It was late and I do not feel I made it well enough-it is important to me that I know that you can see EXACTLY where I am coming from on this. Let me for this next bit, be a freeper repuke who has run across this very thread and our discussion: "Boy, those loony lefties are at it again! They are taking McCain's military service and twisting it to serve their own spiteful purposes and here is a perfect example of that. That 'liberation' guy is spreading BS that McCain started the Forrestal fire!!! How ANYONE can believe ANYTHING these lefties say is beyond me!"

See how that worked?. NO you are NOT making stuff up about mCcain, you are instead helping to spread a story which IS INDEED out there on the net! The ripple effect from a story like this spread by us can only damage our side! For instance when some guy on the right tries to tell you that Senator Obama is going to raise your taxes, the first thing you are going to think is "BULLSHIT!-This guy's an idiot!" You can easily counter such nonsense with the hard data. Senator Obama has promised to give tax breaks to the lower and middle classes and to roll back the bush tax breaks to the corporations and to the highest classes. In a sense the righty is telling an indefensible story and nothing more but we can use the official story to paint him as being uniformed at the very least or even an outright liar! Do we REALLY know that a President Obama is NOT going to raise our taxes? Of course we can not know this, we are not psychic BUT we stand on much firmer grounds with our version than the righty does with his version! Yet NEITHER version has been proven!

I feel that if we are unified in our stories and if we speak with the same voice, with the hard irrefutable data to back up that voice, then we are in a much better position to sway folks to listening to what we are saying-to get them to actually believe what we are saying. THAT is where I am coming from and why I choose not to spread the Forrestal story. It is my hope that I can convince you to join me in this. Until the "Hot Start" version becomes accepted OVER the official version I would urge you to steer clear of it's use because it paints you as being the "Swiftboater" instead of painting you as someone who has a clear understanding regarding the hot-headedness that mCcain truly has exhibited through time!

I had heard some of those other things you have spoken about regarding mCcain as a pilot. I think you may have a good thing going here when you illuminate his earlier career as a reckless hot-head fly-boy. His senatorial anger control issues are well documented, you should link these two because it powerfully demonstrates that the man has not changed through time-that he was, is and always will be without good self control! It is my opinion that you should NOT include the Forrestal incident with this though. I hope you can now see how it could be used against you-to diminish your story's very credibility.

[Thothmes]

62. No wet start

McCains A4 was spotted on the port side of the flight aft the angle deck. His engine exhaust was pointed toward the South China Sea. The missile that hit his A/C came from an F4 spotted on the starboard side,near the island, with its tail toward the South China Sea. Check the pri flight video taken at the time of the accident.

[chknltl]

138. Thank You Thothmes

This is how I had heard this story too, that the missile flew 'across' the flight deck. I had always assumed that this meant that the missile travelled from one side of the ship to the other side-NOT from the fighter directly next to and slightly behind McCain's. Your version matches the official version of what happened on that day. I have heard both versions of this and chose to stick with the official story instead of the non-official one. Being that I don't have strong evidence to contradict the official story I feel it best to stay on the high road with this and not use the unofficial story to "Swiftboat" McCain with. Do I really know what happened? No. Thanks again for clearing things up.

[Thothmes]

141. Check google

for "USS Forestal Fire" there is the flight deck video of the whole sad incident. One viewing is sufficient to understand what happened on that dark day.

[gulfcoastliberal]

25. K&R What is he hiding?

He wants to be elected president without allowing public examination of his job performance records?

[Poiuyt]

26. Didn't the Repubs hound John Kerry to release ALL his military records?

Or am I mixed up? (Or both?)

[BfB]

27. LOL!

Reminds me of the right-wingers wanting Obama's birth certificate.

[flamingdem]

29. Any links on that? nt

[nc4bo]

30. I think OP is really concentrating on complete medical record, not the photo-op one he did this year

or the one in 1999(?). I could be wrong, I'm not the OP but I want to add that I'd also like to know why ALL of his records, especially his pschy records, have not been released.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/23/mccains-medical-records-the-nodes-know-were-still-in-the-dark/

Wait a minute? Didn't McCain release his medical records today?

Sorry, Charlie. The McCain team kept the selected records they place before the press carefully away from the public -- and severely restricted even press access:

Sen. John McCain will give select members of the media a three-hour glimpse at his medical records Friday.



McCain last revealed his medical records in 1999, making 1,500 pages of records available to reporters when he was competing with George W. Bush for the Republican nomination. The records spanned his time in the Navy to his failed bid for the White House.



The newer batch of records has strict security guidelines attached. Only certain news networks and newspapers will be permitted to enter the room, and they will have only three hours to examine the papers.

No cell phones or Internet access will be allowed in the room, located in a resort outside Phoenix, Arizona. Copying the records is also prohibited.

Anyone who leaves the room for any reason except the bathroom will not be allowed back.

So McCain's team allowed the press (a select few) to view the records under controlled conditions.

The records were "released" about as much as the Monterey Bay Aquarium lets visitors take home the Great White Shark they had on view there. Which, fortunately for us and the shark, was not at all.

But everything's OK, right? The candidate's personal physicians say so, right? And so do the carefully selected media outlets the campaign invited to review the records -- but didn't allow to make any phone calls during the review, much less make any copies.

As part of their media reach-around, McCain's spin doctors upstaged their own Friday AM invite-only party with a private session for johns reporters from the AP on Thursday afternoon. The predictable climax on Thursday? The medical experts - oops - reporters from the AP looked at whatever the campaign chose to put before them, and rushed to tell us all what great shape McCain is in.

[caseymoz]

31. K&R: I sense the possibility of Swiftboat payback. (end)

[FrenchieCat]

33. It would seem that yes, we should see the military records........

He's a hero, so I'm sure it would have been very glowing.

[LiberalFighter]

60. If he can't back up his military hero status with the records then...

he shouldn't be using his military background as a part of his resume.

[GreenTea]

34. Why indeed....Mr McBush!

Can't let republicans get away with it again!

[Politicalboi]

36. Don't you know we are in a post 9/11 world

It would be a matter of National Security for MaGoo to release his records. The enemy would read his records and if he were ever captured again they would know he was lying.

[jmowreader]

37. I think I know why...

It's because once he was released from the Hanoi Hilton, he lost his medical clearance to be a pilot, so he spent the next twenty or so years in a succession of desk jobs.

He never really got a BAD Officer Evaluation Report because of all the admirals in his family, but there are ways to word an OER narrative so it says "if you're looking for a really fine officer for your command don't ask for John McCain." A sailor would recognize them in a heartbeat.

It's not that there's anything necessarily terrible in his Officer Records Brief (although there may be--who knows?) but rather that there's no proof the Great POW And Military Veteran John McCain did anything more heroic than push paperwork for the last 20 years of his career.

[Waiting For Everyman]

39. That's a real good question

[fasttense]

40. And what about those 32 propaganda films McCain did for the Vietnamese

following five days of torture? I wonder if we will ever see them again?

[LostinVA]

44. I've asked this of you more than once about the films: so what?

Many POWs made so-called propaganda films after being tortured. So what? They were TORTURED. By this logic, we should condemn what the Iraqis who were tortured by US soldiers did. Those disgusting Iraqis, I can't believe what they did! Ugh. This is very disrespectful of all military and civilian POWs who have been tortured.

Als, I would like a link to the source for "32 propaganda films," from a LEGIT source, because I can't find one.

[FatDave]

47. So, if footage turns up of John McCain denouncing America...

...we should just ignore it? Take the high road to defeat once again? Fuck that, I'm sick of it. If they're gonna play dirty, we need to play dirty. Character assassination is all the brain-dead right understand.

[LostinVA]

49. Yes, we should just ignore -- what is wrong with some of you???

Not only would it be the worst strategy in the world, which would explode all over the place, IT GOES against what the democratic party stands for. If the ONLY way to win is to throw morals, decency, and ethics under the bus, then we don't deserve to win.

I loathe Mccain, but I will never, ever denounce him for anything he said or did while under torture, or even afterward with the threat hanging over his head. It's quite disgusting to seriousl;y suggest doing so.

[FatDave]

53. So let me make sure I understand.

They're allowed to lie, cheat, and steal with impunity, but we're not allowed to use their candidates own words and actions against him? Nice double standard. What if those propaganda films turn up? Should we actively help to suppress them?

[Marrah_G]

80. WTF is wrong with you? You don't use propaganda tapes made under extreme duress as ammunition......

Do you WANT Obama to lose? Because that is what this line of attack is. A loser. It hurts Obama and helps McCain.

[FatDave]

84. Look, I'm playing a lot of devil's advocate in this subthread

You'll notice that my OP only suggested he release his military record, somebody else brought up the propaganda tapes, and I began questioning the kneejerk "we can't dare touch that" responses.

You'll also notice that I defended McCain against non-credible claims of him causing the fire on the Forrestal. So I'm not out to smear with lies, only the truth.

And if the truth is he made propaganda films, no matter the circumstances he made them under, then there's no reason we should fight that truth coming out. He didn't have to do it, he did it to save his own ass. He could have chosen death before dishonor. I'm sure many other POW's did.

If Kerry had made propaganda tapes, would the republicans have said "no, we can't go there"? I'm not saying it's ethical, I'm not even saying we should do it, I'm just saying we can't rule it out. If nothing is off limits for our opposition, why should anything be off limits to us?

As far as your claim that it would hurt Obama and help McCain, would it really? By that rationale the swiftboat campaign should have hurt Bush and helped Kerry, especially given that it nothing but lies? Sure, seems like it should have to anyone with a shred of decency, but the people we're dealing with here have no such shreds.

[Marrah_G]

86. Kerry was not imprisoned and tortured. That is what makes this entire tactic a big loser

I want Obama to win. We NEED Obama to win. This would hurt him.

[FatDave]

90. But just pretend for a moment that he had been.

For the sake of argument, let's imagine Kerry or some theoretical democratic presidential candidate had been imprisoned and tortured, and in order to end that torture had made anti-U.S. propaganda films for the enemy, and one of those films subsequently turned up.

Would the republicans refuse to use it against our candidate? Would it backfire if they did? Would the torture become more "fraternity pranks"? Would the narrative become "well, he was singing like a songbird long before he was ever tortured"?

Look, this is an extreme example, but it is an example of a key factor in our continued losing of elections. We go up against character assassins, refuse to sink to their level, then ride our moral superiority to electoral defeat.

[Marrah_G]

93. Sorry I find the reasoning that we must stoop to their level disgusting

Frankly if the only way to win is to lie and deceive then I no longer want any part of the process.

[LittleClarkie]

99. Amen

Preach it, sister.

[liberation]

100. Typical Ostrich attitude...

No wonder liberalism in America is an extinct species.

The point of those tapes, which are irrelevant since there is well documented instances of McCain's signed statements as published by the Vietnamese, is not that he did something bad. In fact no one is judging him for doing that, under such circumstances anyone has to do what they have to do to survive.

But what the tapes show, not that McCain is unpatriotic or a coward... what they show is that what McCain is not: is a hero.

By dismantling his hero clout, we disable his only weapon: the "I am a hero POW, I am untouchable" card.


But... it is easier for you to take the high road, I guess... so sure, let him dominate the debate.

[Marrah_G]

105. Sorry- you may have no problem with lying and decieving to get what you want

I, on the other hand, do have a problem with it.

If my candidate and his campaign have no dignity, integrity honor or honesty then why would I EVER wish them to represent me?

You may call in having my head in the sand, but I prefer that to a giving up my honor and integrity.

[liberation]

109. Sorry that you have to recourse to strawmen to keep your argument alive...

Where in my post did I lie?

Are some of you really this dense, I really want to give the benefit before assuming the obvious concern trolling.


He is running on his military record, we should at the very least be able to ACCESS IT and ASSESS IT. I don't take anything any politician has to say at face value, much less about something that the very same politician has made damn sure we can not access.

McCain has a life long pattern of entitlement, incompetence, and above all a history of relaxing any moral standard in order to benefit his interest. Maybe the word of such a person is just good enough to you, I have I guess higher standards. Not taking the word of a life long crook does not make me an advocate of deceit, in fact all the contrary.

Funny how some people spend as much energy trying to enforce some political group to follow a set of standards, while at the same time spending as much or more energy excusing the GOPers for not meeting those standards by claiming we need to be held to higher standards. Misplaced priorities at its best I guess...

[Marrah_G]

118. You are advocating holding up propaganda made by torture as fact. That is a lie.

It goes right to the intent. The intention is to deceive.

Am I dense? No. I just apparently was raised to have a little more sense of integrity then you do. I am sure your parents would be proud.

Take your remarks about concern Trolls and shove them. Bully behavior like that is pathetic.

[FatDave]

116. Again, who's talking about being deceitful?

If the tape exists, he made it, why is it deceitful to show people that he made it?

Say I find the tape in a second-hand store in Hanoi. I deliver it to the media saying "hey, look what I found here". Am I being deceitful? If NBC news plays it back, prefaced with "bear in mind that John McCain made these statements under extreme duress and threats of physical harm", are they being deceitful? Even without that statement, just playing it back with no comment whatsoever, where is the deceit?

Another argument is "it doesn't count, because it was coerced." OK, sure. Do you think John McCain wants this (as of now entirely hypothetical) footage seen? Even though it was coerced?

[Marrah_G]

120. Taking Propaganda, created by torture and portraying it as fact is decieptful

You know this.

It is crap Cheney would think was just terrific. You are no better then he is. I am ashamed to have people like you claiming to be part of the Democratic party.

I am done having this conversation with you. You are not the sort of human being I want anything more to do with.

You make me sick.

[FatDave]

123. You're willfully ignoring what I keep saying over and over and over

Furthermore, I have been entirely civil to you throughout this discussion. You've asked "WTF is wrong with you?", compared me to Dick Cheney, said you're ashamed I'm a democrat and that I make you sick. You never got around to calling me a nazi, so I suppose there's that.

Good day.

[FatDave]

101. Who said anything about lying and deceiving?

If the truth is that John McCain made propaganda videos while he was a POW, and documentary evidence of that truth surfaces, why should we try to stop it? Oh sure, we can denounce it in the strongest terms possible and point out that, having been tortured, he wasn't responsible for his actions. The American public can choose to use that information however they like. Some may feel that sure, an average person might assist the enemy in order to end torture, they may even do it themselves, but it doesn't exactly make you presidential material.

If the truth is that McCain's propaganda was coerced, then why is anybody, least of all democrats, afraid of it? I mean come on, if he made propaganda films for the enemy, no matter what the circumstances, should the American people have that truth hidden from them?

[Marrah_G]

106. To claim any sort of taped statement by a man being tortured and held for 5 years is factual

And to then use those tapes to hurt him is deceitful and deep down you damn well know it is a lie.

[FatDave]

112. Am I claiming that the content of the tapes reflect his honest beliefs?

No. I'm not even claiming that such tapes exist. However...

If such tapes exist, and one surfaces, it confirms as an irrefutable fact, regardless of the circumstances under which it was done, that McCain aided the enemy by making propaganda films. If there is documentary evidence of it happening, then it did happen.

It is a fact, and it is a fact capable of existing all on its own, free to be interpreted by anyone as they see fit. The left can spin it one way and the right can spin it another.

But your position seems to be that the truth is dangerous to us.

[Marrah_G]

115. Your position of holding propaganda gained by torture is right in line with something Cheney approve

[liberation]

117. Hum your deep understanding of what Cheney would do or like seems suspicious...

[FatDave]

119. I see I've effectively won this argument. Thanks for playing.

[liberation]

111. Really, I could swear that publishing tapes of McCain denouncing America would hurt McCain...

But what was I thinking using logic and what not...


Publishing a tape of McCain saying "f*ck America" will hurt Obama because... well... because... hum... help me here, I am not good with your logic here.

[Waiting For Everyman]

121. Giving McC a "pass" under torture and making him a HERO for it...

are two different things! Why is that so hard to understand? Just because we don't hold it against him, we don't need to go beyond that and proclaim him a hero. And then fit to be President. Is there a logic gap somewhere?

And what about the POWs who did the same thing and WERE prosecuted for it? And doesn't that really make the word "hero" virtually meaningless for those who ARE true heroes?

He's getting no pass from me, for falsely posturing to be a hero and using it as a defense for everything for 40 years. That also doesn't allow him to get laws passed which negatively impacted other POWs and those who may be in the same position in the future.

Enough! Enough with shielding this weasel!

[VWolf]

48. McCain was NOT tortured!!!

At least, not according to this administration's definition.

[LostinVA]

50. Not amusing -- he was tortured, and making light of it is very distasteful

The torture of ANY civilian or military POW should be denounced. Isn't that what we have said on here for years??? Why the hell does this change because it's MCCAIN we're talking about? What kind of moral compass is that, to only adhere to certain things unless it's our opponent who suffers from it, then it's okay?

I think attacking McCain on this is VERY bad strategy as well as really, really against our beliefs. It isn't about "taking the high road," it's about living the ideals we say we support.

[VWolf]

54. Then why the hell is McCain siding with * on this issue?

I'm not making light of anything. That's the current admin's position, and I think it's a valid point.

[LostinVA]

70. That's a lVERY egitimate slam on McCain that I would liek to see him asked

[FatDave]

55. "Why the hell does this change because it's MCCAIN we're talking about?"

Because in a choice between preserving my moral purity or my country, I choose my country.

[LostinVA]

71. Your answer negates your answer

[Major Hogwash]

68. You have no veritas on this subject.

You don't have any proof of what you are saying, so you have no credibility on this subject.

[LostinVA]

69. Why don't I have proof???

[fascisthunter]

72. actually it is "funny", and so is your "concern"

[Marrah_G]

78. Your insinuation that LostinVA is a troll by use of "concern" is against the rules

Lost is an good liberal Dem, active in the party and has been a member of DU for quite some time.

Your actions are those of a bully.

[fascisthunter]

107. ok

[LiberalFighter]

58. If done the right way they should be used.

I'm sure they could be used to rebut much of what McCain has to say about his "service".

[rndmprsn]

41. K+R

...what do you have to hide Mcterrible?

[nc4bo]

42. How should it be handled?

The more I think about it, the more I think the Dems shouldn't let this go. In fact, the question really should have been pushed at the beginning of the campaign.

This isn't swiftboating and it's not attacking his POW record. Adding; we're basically being asked to take McCain at his word and the word of a few of his fellow POW's - yet McCain has proved himself to a be liar, his fellow POW's involved in less than honest activities and/or at the very least, mentally unfit to perform the duties of POTUS on the campaign trail.

How would undecideds, Independents, fence sitting Rethugs or the so called disinterested Rethugs react? Would there be this huge cry of indignation and outrage that would be used against us?

Should the Obama campaign be the ones who request a full discloser of McCain's military (and medical/mental) records or should it come from the netroots?

[LittleClarkie]

43. Bech

Hated that when they did it to Kerry. Not going to do it to McCain.

[LostinVA]

45. Exactly

[FatDave]

51. Ah bullshit.

If you make your military service and time as a POW pretty much the only plank of your platform then carefully conceal all your records, you should be called out on it.

So you didn't like it when they did it to Kerry. Maybe they won't like it if we do it to McCain. They're the ones who changed the rules by making nothing off limits.

Maybe you haven't noticed but even though republicans can't govern for shit, they are pretty good at winning elections. Their greatest tactic is to take our candidates' strengths and make them weaknesses. Now we can either get down in the mud with them or we can stand around patting ourselves on the back saying "at least we ran a clean campaign", waiting for their idiot voters to respect that, and watching our country continue down the fucking toilet.

Enough is enough already. Take them down. Leave them bloodied, bruised and broken.

[NBachers]

61. John Kerry, Max Cleland, Al Gore

But now John McCain's untouchable? Fuck that. Pulverize the motherfuckers in any way possible. They opened the door. They made this an issue. And the world is paying the price for their mendacity and prevarication. Use the same tactics on them that they used against us. Be better at it than they are. Steamroll them with the truth.

Hoist on their own fucking petard. And left for the buzzards to pick the flesh off their bones.

Do it.

[LittleClarkie]

98. It was wrong when they did it to Kerry, and to Max, and to Al

It does not suddenly become right because it's being done to McCain.

If we attack the man's record as these other men were attacked, we are no better than their attackers were.

[Major Hogwash]

67. Kerry released all of his records when he ran, why would you want McCain to cover up his?

That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[LostinVA]

74. I never said any of that -- you're just threadstalking me now

[Major Hogwash]

77. Threadstalking? I've never heard that term before.

Just because I answered some of the posts you have made in this one thread, doesn't mean I was "threadstalking" you.

[FatDave]

85. Funny, I thought you were just having a debate

We still do that here, right?

[Major Hogwash]

66. Kerry released more of his military records than anyone since Eisenhower!!

So, if McCain is going to rely on his "hero status" as a vet, he must release ALL of his records.

That's all there is to it.

[redqueen]

73. No kidding... how can anyone claim we shouldn't demand he release them?

:wtf:

[LittleClarkie]

75. But even then it wasn't enough. Release more, the smear vets said.

Release different ones. Release ones that don't exist. More, more, more. It was futile and useless. Kerry released more than anyone else probably to head of these people, but it only fed them instead.

This sounds too much like that. I'm not going after the man's service.

Can't we talk about the damn issues, for fuck's sake?

[redqueen]

76. Kerry released lots... has McCain?

I'm not going to play Pollyanna cause this "sounds like" whatever you think it does.

[LittleClarkie]

82. Well if you want to crawl up McCain's ass with a microscope, knock yourself out

I can think of better places to be and less slimy activities to be doing this campaign season.

Or do you really think looking to attack McCain's service will get you votes somewhere along the way? I mean, what other reason would you have for insisting he release his records? Just because you're curious?

[Major Hogwash]

88. Thank you very much. Not that we needed your permission to begin with.

The fact is - Kerry did release his records - more than anyone had in over 40 years.

So, don't give me this jazz that we just have to accept McCain's version of his military record on his word alone, because I don't accept McCain's version of a damned thing based on what he says!!!

And neither does Clark!!

[redqueen]

95. The guy's running as a war hero. It's frickin logical that he be thoroughly vetted as such.

:crazy:

[LittleClarkie]

96. So you agreed with the smear vets re: John Kerry and his record?

Somehow I don't think the plan is to look at McCain's record for an objective vetting.

[redqueen]

127. You're projecting.

Why do you insist on believing what you think people are doing. Why are you so eager to assign motives to people for no reason?

[redqueen]

94. You're disgusting. (nt)

[liberation]

104. Wow... requesting information is akin to attack?

If he is running on his military record, we should at the very least be able to access that record.

Is that concept so hard to understand?


It is like going to a surgeon who he claims will do the best job on your brain surgery, but finding out that he has sealed his records. Would you go on his word alone, I seriously doubt it.


When trying to ride a high horse, at least make sure you can even manage a little pony first.

[Major Hogwash]

89. It wasn't enough for who? Just those lying swift boaters, but the American people want to know . .

WHO IS JOHN MCCAIN???

[penndragon69]

46. We'll never see them.

Frankly because they would show that he was a collaborator
with the North Vietnamese army and probably also a traitor
for giving away tactical information about Naval forces.

These are his true colors. Chicken Shit YELLOW !

[DailyGrind51]

52. And, he will get away with it, just like GWB did!

Bush dismissed his past and no one pressed him for it and McCain will get the same treatment! When it was Bill Clinton, his non-military service, his smoked "but didn't inhale", his affair with Gennifer Flowers, were all meat for public consumption, but all these Republicans have to say is "Talk to the hand!" and the MSM backs off! WTF?

[pleah]

56. K&R! n/t

[LiberalFighter]

59. They won't release the records because Bush didn't release all of his.

[TexasObserver]

63. He won't because they'll prove he's crazy as a loon, and dangerous.

[Major Hogwash]

64. The MSM constantly questioned Kerry's service, but just accepts whatever McCain sez about his.

And if that doesn't wake you up to the bias of the media, then nothing ever will!!!!!

[RedLetterRev]

65. McKook: A noun, a verb, and "POW"

I'm sick unto death of his free ride, Mr Ghouliani Redux. The RW flogged Kerry to bits, they've flogged Obama to bits, yet it's all secrecy and hypocrisy when it comes to revealing the least details about their candidates.

Look, the only way to get them to shape up (and I speak with some sad experience at the receiving end of bullies' ministrations) is to feed them a dose of their own medicine, good and hard. They wanted all of Kerry's military records, but wouldn't come off AWOL Bush's or McKook's. They wanted Theresa Kerry's tax information -- all of it -- but Cindy is too goddam good for it and said "no" and that was supposed to be the end of that. Everyone was supposed to just suck it up and say, "well, it's ok for Dems to be under a high-powered microscope, but the RW are absolutely beyond scrutiny". Now, McKook's military records are off-limits?

Fuck that. And yeah, I said it. I'll say it again, loudly: FUCK THAT. Was I clear? Sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander, baby. If they're going to play the "let's disclose game", then they're not going to be allowed to play half-ass "Dems disclose everything, RWers disclose nothing" like they've done every single time up until now.

Today dawns a whole brand-damn-new day. His record is untouchable? I think not. He's the one who threw it out there and threw it in our faces. If we had opened the door it would have been in bad taste to have questioned; but since he insists on making the big deal out of it, then, baby, all bets are off. Let him swiftboat himself. Since he has made the big deal out of POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW POW, then we have every right to know its effects since the event --

and what effects it may still have on him since he IS interviewing for the highest office in the land.

Any employer would want to have the same answer for any high-stress, high-availability, high-risk job. Would you put a volatile person, prone to flip-outs and road-rage behind the wheel of a big rig and give him a weapon? If not, then why would you make him POTUS and give him the power to press the nuclear button? The implications are far, far more disastrous.

Yes, indeed, citizens, we have every single right to ask that question and every single right to examine every page of those documents because that man, in one of his famous and well-documented fits of rage could very well send this nation into a nuclear holocaust.

Think of that the next time you want to stay your hand because you fear it might be tacky to ask.

It is your duty as a citizen to examine those qualifications -- or disqualifications as the case may be.

Absolutely, if they want to play the microscope game with us, by Godde and by damn, we'll play it right back, right down to revealing whether Cindy is a real blonde or not by revealing the "other" patch pub(l)icly. Every time we play nice and accede to their bully games, we get our asses whipped.

I, for one, am no fucking doormat and I am sick unto death of being taken for one.

If McKook is going to run as "Mr Noun+Verb+POW" then he needs to unhand those records. Until then, he offends this and every other veteran.

[happygoluckytoyou]

79. health record.... "no heart no brain" military record "no courage wants to go home"....

McCain....Wizard of OZ...... never seen in the same movie.... both old as dirt....

i think they are the same person...

[CitizenPatriot]

81. as you can see from my signature line

I think this is the number one issue in this election.

Why? Because we are in an unstable situation as a country and with world 'peace". It is absolutely essential to know several things about the next person with their hand on the button.

we have learned that cowboy war-mongers do not make us safe. McCain's response re the Georgia "crisis" or "aggression" depending on who you listen to (or who has paid you 800k) showed me that he is an unthinking bully. WAR WAR WAR. His lack of intellectual capacity is NOT the RIGHT FIT for the leader of the "free world".

questions re applying for leader of free world pre WWIII:

1) how do you handle pressure? any one else would need to prove this via records, history, references, etc.

2) have you ever been treated for a mental or psychological disorder? If so, what and when? Medicated? Are you on medication now? Can we give you a drug test?

3) Ability to hold two disparate thoughts in your head at one time and weigh them thoroughly without jumping to a conclusion (sign of mental health and ability to think clearly). No black and white thinking in this job. That would be BAD for our safety.

$) How do you view "others"? Do you think some people who do things you don't approve of are "evil"? Do you feel connected with people in Iraq, people in France, people in Russia, for example? A mentally and spiritually sound person who might have the good judgment not to lead us into WWIII will know that people are people everywhere and this is our STRENGTH. Bullies, sociopaths, murderers, etc de-humanize the "other", based on religion, race, sexuality, whatever.This is the indication of an unstable, immature mind. Not the leader of the free world.

At the very least, we are entitled to know the answers to questions we'd be asked today if we went down to walmart and applied for a non-unionized job. Is there any job you can apply for now where you don't have to reveal things about yourself that may make you uncomfortable?

Why is McCain privileged regarding his privacy, but meanwhile you and I have NONE. our laptops, our medical history, anything they want to know they have. They can listen to our phones, read our emails, etc and yet no one blinks when this man who refuses to be TRANSPARENT and ACCOUNTABLE (part of the job description of POTUS, people!!!!not a "want" but a "need")says he's running for office and you can't see his

a) medical records
b) POW records
c) financial records

Good luck to any of you who apply for a job where they ask for that stuff, and indeed it is part of your job description, and you refuse.

Furthermore, McCain's privileged ability to get his records sealed caused great pain to the MIA's families who were trying to locate their family members and could not. They needed those classified records. McCain callously and heartlessly put his career and his own self-protection ahead of their needs. Is that a leader? Is that courage? Is that heroism?

Is it wise to let a crazy person be POTUS? Is it "not nice" to ask someone who is applying for a job to supply the information we need to make a decision? And since when is it not "nice" to ask these people to be TRANSPARENT and ACCOUNTABLE?

No President prior to King George would have even considered that they could break the laws of transparency and accountability. Even Nixon was transparent and accountable in ways these guys routinely scoff off. We need to get back to the job description. Reread the constitution.

He needs to release his records and should not be considered for office until he does so.

[knixphan]

83. K&R

:kick:

[mirrera]

87. k&r

[suston96]

103. Release records? Yeah, records should be released.......

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/barack_obama_records_sealed_at.html

(BTW, that's from the Chicago Tribune......).

[FatDave]

108. OK, mind if I quote that article?

The university's Chicago campus maintains that the donor of the records that document the work of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge has not handed over ownership rights. The university says it is "aggressively pursuing" an agreement with the donor, and as soon as an agreement is reached, the collection will be made accessible to the public. The university has not identified the donor.

The Obama campaign says the senator does not have control over these records or the ability to release them, adding that it has made many documents related to Obama's life available to the public and that "we are pleased the university is pursuing an agreement that would make these records publicly available."

Three main points:

• Obama is not trying to keep them sealed
  
• The university says they don't have the legal right to release them
  
• The university is actively pursuing the legal rights to release them

Not exactly a coverup from the sounds of it. Ayers was far removed from his time with the Weathermen when he was working with the Annenburg Challenge and came into contact with Obama. What could possibly be in here worth hiding?

[suston96]

Oh, gee.....someobody actually read one of my posts - and even the link....I am flattered....nt

[redqueen]

129. Not gonna answer the above poster's question?

Or comment on how wildly not the same this is?

What kind of game are you playing at here?

[CitizenPatriot]

114. what does this mean?

are you saying that these records which not Obama, but the U of Chicago, sealed are the equivalent of McCain's military records in terms of their relevance to the current campaign platforms and mental health of the candidates?


What does this have to do with McCain not releasing his records? Are you suggesting that he shouldn't have to because of this?

[FatDave]

125. I think we were only supposed to read the headline. (nt)

[redqueen]

128. Is Obama running on being an Ayers acolyte? No. McCain, however, IS running as a 'war hero'.

Honestly you'd think people here were working for McCain, they're so aggressively trying to prevent people from asking questions about his record.

[Froward69]

110. May I repost this post in a Denver newspaper?

RMN and or the Post

[FatDave]

126. Do what you like with it with one caveat.

You should probably change "military records" to "POW records", which is the main point of contention.

[TellTheTruth82]

122. His records have been released

The AP looked and them and wrote on them in May of this year.

A link:


http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=1446

[tekisui]

124. That was some shitty site you linked to.

He hasn't released his POW military records.

[redqueen]

130. I hope you're not surprised. This place is overrun with them. (nt)

[TellTheTruth82]

133. maybe so

but it does show that his military records were released, no matter what you think of the site. There is a link to the AP story there as well.

[FatDave]

136. A broken link.

I had to do a lot of digging to find the actual article. See below.

[nc4bo]

131. Oh WOW, the Associated Press AP? bwahahahaha. nt

[FatDave]

134. It took me a long time to find the actual AP article

But here it is: http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1400139&nid=213

It's pretty much a puff piece about how remarkable and heroic McCain is, though apparently the author obtained the records via FOIA, and not having them volunteered by McCain.

I haven't found anything about any reporters outside of this one seeing the records, and based on the article either the records were very sparse or the author was very selective.

I found lots of other sites citing the AP article (most with broken links to it) but none with additional information. It seems like a less than thorough vetting.

If anybody has additional information, I'd like to read it.

The afforementioned author has also been cited by Media Matters for an arguably minor but misleading omission in regards to John McCain: http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/tags/jim_kuhnhenn

[nc4bo]

135. Geez. It's dripping with pure sugar cane syrup and asks no questions.

Not much different than what any one would hear and view on The Republican Network Media Stream.

(They) basically provide him cover.


It must so be nice to have so many "friends" to CYA for you. :sarcasm: We should all be as fortunate as McMaverick.

[redqueen]

137. And even better (worse), he's got "friends" here covering for him here, too!

:wow:

[CitizenPatriot]

132. FT and RQ

thank god. thanks for your posts. I thought I'd lost it here.

Are we not supposed to question things anymore? This must not be a site for Democrats anymore.

Dude with the bad link, he HAS not released or declassified his POW records. Follow the link at the bottom of my signature line and you will meet several hundred angry and devastated POWs and their families and families of MIA POWs who have begged McCain to declassify his POW records so they could find their FAMILIES.

Odd thing for a family values pro vet candidate to do, eh?

The bad logic and bs makes me feel like I'm on FreeRepublic today.

________________

here's what I'd like to say to people still making this indefensible comparison:

You are comparing records Obama has no control over to records McCain purposefuly used his power and elite status to seal. You are suggesting they are equal in importance and relevance to their respective campaign platforms and mental health?

If so, Obama must be running on a platform which these records could completely dispel. These records must also possibly reveal him to be a traitor. They must also possibly reveal that he is mentally unstable. they must also possibly reveal that he has put his self-preservation ahead of the LIVES of thousands. I could go on, but I think you get what I'm saying.

McCain made this The Issue. he is running on his ability to lead us in war, foreign policy, and being a war hero. Why would we take his word for that? I can list -- and have on other threads -- dozens of proven times he has lied to us on video -- so it would be ridiculous to ask us to take his word. Just nonsense. He lied to us just the other night. Sorry, but I need to see the records.

Are you saying that you do not think that McCain should have to release his military records?

TRANSPARENT AND ACCOUNTABLE

esp in matters of national security, how you treat others whose lives depended on you, your mental health!

[Cronus Protagonist]

139. He's a traitor

A songbird enemy collaborator.