I am a Born-Again Christian Obama supporter and lifelong member of the Democratic party--

[Indiana_Dem]

I saw a distinct contrast in Obama's response and McCain's response. All McCain said was basically "I'm saved". Anyone can say that. George Bush said that. Obama's remarks were much more a witness to what one usually says when asked the same question. McCain quickly changed the subject and offered some anecdote of his life that had nothing to do with the question as to what he believed or not. I hope other evangelicals catch that.

Just my 2 cents.

p.s. and I'm really getting ticked off at intolerant people on here that have the freedom not to believe what they want yet consistently knock down mine. I don't make smart remarks about their beliefs and I expect the same in return. Thank you.

[peacebird]

1. i am not christian, and i agree completely with your analysis. Do you think other B-A's will agree?

I hope so.

Obama offered thoughtful responses - when he was presenting things that the audience would love AND when talking about what he knew they would hate.

[Indiana_Dem]

6. I'm not sure if other B-As would see it the same as me-

I consider myself an exception but maybe I'm wrong. I am pro-choice, pro-separation of church and state, etc., for reasoning too lengthy to discuss here. Obama probably best represents who I am as a Christian as anyone I know. I imigaine there are others like me and Obama, maybe more than we think. That's why it was important for him to get up there to fish them out. IT may look like he was a failure and the media may spin it that way but for some it will help them relate to Obama better.

My husband felt like McCain spoke more of non-values related issues even though he was so black and white. He thought Obama answered more of the questions directly based on his ethics, morals, and religious beliefs. McCain mostly pounded his talking points with personal stories inbetween.

I felt like he was trying to overplay his military experiences up too much so that they sounded like pandering and fakiness to me. None of it related much to values to me.

[Cosmocat]

13. It just is bizarre ... Seriously ...

McCain is NOT an actively practicing christian ...

It is obvious ...

And, BO very much seems to be ...

That played out in this forum ... BO talked in a manner that displayed a three dimensional understanding of the faith, he was able to consistently integrate it into the discussion from start to finish ...

I am not a christian ... I could have FAKED it better than McCain did ... He had maybe two canned responses and the prison camp story ...

But, the crowd was in the bag for McCain and was polite at best for BO ... And, of course, the MSM spun it as BOTH candidates proving their faith, McCain being "understated" or whatever ...

It isn't about faith, it is about politics ...

Plain and simple ...

[1Hippiechick]

58. I, too, am Christ-follower Democrat. Note that I purposely did not use the term "Christian" which

has become a bad "brand" IMO. I think the criticism on here is for the far right wackos who pull out of the OT the scriptures that 'support' their belief in war. And, the far right wackos, IMO, are the ones who grew up in or attend hellfire and damnnation churches that "preach" (not teach) of a stern and harsh God. It's as if the NT doesn't exist. Have you picked up on the Matthew 25 group who are now posting on YouTube? Matthew 25 (starting at the 35th verse) is EXACTLY what Obama was talking about - straight out of Scriptures--about caring for others.
Matthew 25:35
35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

The Bible STATES that the greatest commandment is LOVE--of God and of others:
"When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" he replied, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind' - this is the great and foremost commandment, and there is a second like it, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'. The whole Law and Prophets hang on these two commands." (Mtt 22:37-40, Mrk 12:28-34).
When the Christian practices the greatest commandment, he does so with a new standard of love, the love which Jesus Christ himself demonstrated while he was on earth among men.

[Indiana_Dem]

70. That's exactly how I feel (what you've written about)--

...is this MAtthew25 group also called Red Letter Christians? There is a group that call themselves Red Letter Christians who emphasize living by Jesus' words that are found in red in most bibles. I relate more to this group than any other.

[Patchuli]

93. I am happy to find you both

because I feel the same way that you do! I'll have to check out the Red Letter Christians. I think it's obvious that Barack is a practicing Christian. What he said came naturally. I cheered when he said he is pro-choice. I am having a crisis with my church...I always feel like a black sheep and I am tired of that. I try to follow more closely to what Jesus taught and that's not what I see in the right wing fundies. I feel barely tolerated for my political and social beliefs.

[Indiana_Dem]

106. Know that you're not alone!

That feels pretty good. Thanks for sharing! I felt that way in church, too. I loved the worship and even sometimes the sermons but it became too difficult to endure the views of those around me in the church. I don't understand how it is that the people around me in a church can believe the same in salvation and the written word but think so differently--they take from it something entirely different than how I perceive....or at least they act entirely different than howI perceive one should act!

[Patchuli]

109. It's eerie and weird

how these people that profess to love each other can be Republicans. Republican mindset is: Me first, screw you and too bad. It's xenophobic, racist, homophobic and everything that Jesus said not to be. How do they justify it? My sister is a member of Saddleback and I'm feeling pretty bad about that right now. I also kinda hung up on her after telling her she was a racist the other night so here we go with Family Feud, Part 2!

[ecstatic]

92. sincere ones will. The bogus Limbaugh, Coulter, Rove variety

who are not truly practicing the faith will just find more ways to mock.

[grantcart]

2. I think that there are a lot of evangelicals that are very suspicious about politicians

who are quick to give the 'right response' and look for more evidence than what they are mouthing.

As for those who dump on evangelicals here I commiserate with you but unfortunately the leadership of the evangelical movement has been hijacked and for many people their only exposure is to the caricatures they see on TV

[Bluerthanblue]

3. amen-

I appreciate your perspective, and the way in which you voiced it.

I agree with your take on this. It's about more than the 'buzz' words, and symbols. IMO-

:hi:

[FrenchieCat]

4. As a Born Again Christian, I will testify to the fact that you are correct......

Christianity is about Humility in the servitude of Jesus Christ. McCain did not articulate any of this.....as he was not humble.

Defeat evil? Sure......like we mere mortals can.

[nc4bo]

7. Yep and Obama said the H word, more than once. I was so proud of him. nt

[Wheezy]

5. I agree

I am Christian. My husband is a pastor and has been undecided about his vote between McCain and Obama up to this point (I'm a dem, he's independent).

After watching tonight, he said he'll be voting for Obama because of the thoughtful way he answered (not to mention the answers he gave).

I think others will notice this too. McCain stumped and avoided some questions. Obama showed us his struggles and his heart. He was much more authentic.

[Willo]

8. I expected McCain to answer questions from his faith point view

to which I expected him to fail because you just can't fake that (at least not to other christians).

Instead he failed by not answering any question from that perspective. Not a one.

What McCain got was a big audience for his stump speech.

[Indiana_Dem]

10. Exactly! nt

[1Hippiechick]

80. "What McCain got was a big audience for his stump speech." Can I get an Amen!?! :) n/t

[K8-EEE]

9. I think we're all born once & die once, & "faith based" politics is hell.

If the majority of the voters in this country thinking "GOD wants me to vote for..." we are just done for.

Thomas Jefferson would be spinning in his grave listening to all this "faith based" stuff!

[Willo]

11. Sigh...how silly are you trying to be?

If people were waiting for God to tell them who to vote for, they wouldn't LISTEN to what the candidates are saying.
Christians are expected to pray for those in leadership positions. That they would lead wisely.

Every hear the words King of kings, Lord of lords?

Get a clue and don't just make stuff up.

[K8-EEE]

27. Just waiting for somebody to pander to us reality-based people

And I'm sorry, I've heard a LOT of "God wants us to vote for Bush." That's why he's in there! Did you see the movie Jesus Camp?

IMO a good president would serve people of ALL beliefs -- including those, like Thomas Jefferson, who thought belief in supernatural things were superstitious and dangerous.

[Zhade]

37. Indeed. How about a shout-out to us freethinkers?

We vote too -- and democrats of all stripes support secularism, as they should.

Right?

[Indiana_Dem]

43. YEp. I'm a BA Christian who believes in separation of church & state.

Secularism in government is a good thing.

[K8-EEE]

49. I'm glad you're out there!!

Wish there was more of you.

[1Hippiechick]

81. Joining her. That is what I thought was so brilliant about Obama's answers last night!

He was able to articulate his personal belief system BUT emphasized that others didn't have to ascribe to his belief or he to theirs to lead a nation of all people (very, very loosely translated.) Read the transcript or watch the videos. I thought he was absolutely brilliant.

[Zhade]

95. Woohoo! Glad to count you as an ally!

NT!

[Indiana_Dem]

41. YEs, I know all about what you're writing of-I agree whole-heartedly

with your statements.

[Neshanic]

12. What are the core beliefs of a Born again Christian Democrat. That sounds like a paradox.

You do know that "Born Again" denotes that you have accepted Jesus Crist as your Savior and all that goes with it. The Bible is all true. Everything in it. Things like that. How does that work?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

14. Jimmy Carter

nt

[Neshanic]

75. Not BA, by standards of BA's today.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

76. I think if you asked Jimmy Carter...

he would emphatically say that he IS, in fact, born again.

Just because he doesn't fit your stereotype does make it untrue.

[Neshanic]

79. I'm not the standards maker, the far religious right as BA call that shot. He's not.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

105. Sez you...

There is no such thing as the Religious Right. It's a label created by pundits and demographers to describe a group like-minded religious denominations. There is no Pope of the Religious Right who determines if somebody is Born Again or not.

Jimmy Carter is a Born Again Christian.

[Patchuli]

110. And whose standards might those be?

I'm a liberal, a Deadhead and a born-again Christian. I have voted Dem all my life.

[Indiana_Dem]

21. Born again means born first in the flesh and then again in the spirit-

Now believing that the whole bible is true and everything in it is a subject of debate. We've been given the free will to choose to believe or not to believe that Jesus was the savior who came perfect and died for us in perfection because we are not perfect. That is the crux of Christianity.

I carry this concept over to society. I believe the foundations of the country of America lie on the same rationale. America is a country who should give people the free will to believe and do what it is they want to believe & do except if it hurts others. This is why I believe in separation of church and state and am pro-choice (God gave us a choice to sin or not to sin--no answers as to when life begins specified as far as I am aware of), pro-gun (with certain limitations to prevent chaos and promote civil order), pro-environment (we are stewards of the earth we have been born in), etc. I'm what you would call politically a left libertarian.

Personally, I am not for abortion but for caring for those that are born into adversity. I don't own or have any experience with guns. I would not like to fight war except maybe in self-defense (the world's natural laws are grounded in "survival of the fittest"). Ultimately, I would hope I could die without fighting it if someone were to take my life but it's not in my human nature so it would be a test.

So there's a little bit of an answer to the paradox.

[Neshanic]

77. That first sentence is the kicker. There is NO wiggle room as a BA.

Go ask any BA on the street. Any televangelist. Any Baptist preacher. You CANNOT be born again until you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and all that goes with it. That's the way it is.

Bible belief in totality.

There is no free after being born again. By what you wrote, I am sorry to say, you are not born again, but what a born again would call a cafeteria Christian. That's just the facts.

[Patchuli]

112. I didn't see Indiana Dem "wiggling" on that

so what are you talking about? Did you read the same sentence I did?

[noel711]

90. John McCain is hedging his bets...

But he can't have it both ways...

No substance in his comments;

And that tripe about being 'saved'??

He can talk the talk, but did he walk the walk?

The most important step one can do to show that
the 'born again' experience is real is by
submitting to baptism.

John McCain isn't baptised.
He won't put his money where is mouth is.

If these fundies really cared, there would be outrage.
he's using them all.

[Divine Discontent]

34. I follow Christ's teachings

I do not ascribe to everything that is in the Jewish Torah (the first 5 books, esp. the book of Leviticus that talks about slaves, women menstruating, and supposed same sex laws). I believe that religions clearly have canonized the books of the bible (approved versions) that they wish to push - I believe Christ's words are reported accurately, and His mission to save us from sin is very clean - I just find it hard to believe that the church leaders over the years hasn't had a nasty part in the rewrites from the ancient Aramaic to modern English. Many believe that King James (who commissioned the most popular version of the bible) was a gay man, and was a self-hater and had them write in anti-homosexual lines, so who knows other than the power above us all. I know GOD loves me the way I am. Thanks for asking an open question, Neshanic.

[Neshanic]

78. Your beliefs would fall far short of born againism by all standards of the group calling themselves

born again.

[martymar64]

111. That's why I'm not a christian

I can accept the moral and philosophical teaching of jesus, but I draw the line at supernatural mumbo-jumbo (rising from the dead, etc). I just cannot accept that portion of the story, it is simply not believable and no amount of faith will get me to believe it. I thought about going to church just to meet some nice girls but I wouldn't be able to fake my disbelief.

[northofdenali]

15. Christians SHOW that they are.

The rest just say it.

I know so many born-again folks who really mean it, and show it. What is that Bible verse about "works"?

I know so many hypocrites who are "Christians" but don't try to help the poor, the hungry, the injured or ill.

Having been raised solidly in the Catholic church, but no longer a believer, I will distinguish on acts, not on words.

Your 2 cents matter.

[Indiana_Dem]

22. I agree totally. nt

[blondeatlast]

100. Matthew 25: "Ye shall know them by their works."

The Fundie hypocrites get a faulty Bible that leacves out that messy Matthew. Matthew is a challenge to faith, not just to believe, but to live it.

[jefferson_dem]

16. First off, as a non-evangelical, I stand with you.

I am sorry some "Dems" here come across as bigoted as those they claim to hate.

If folks buy into this McCain sideshow tonight, they deserve the candidate as much as he deserves them. I heard where he didn't even say the word "God" or "Jesus". Yet this was a conference on FAITH?

[Indiana_Dem]

45. Thank you. My sentiments, too. nt

[murray hill farm]

71. Mine too!

i believe that we may all be suprised as to the outcome of this forum.

[1Hippiechick]

82. And had that been Obama's omission, the MSM would have been all over it

as would have the ppl who still believe him to be Muslin! Grrrrr

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. I'm an atheist and I haven't seen the forum yet

But I've always felt that Obama talks about Jesus as a philosopher and teacher. You get the sense that Obama wants to emulate Jesus. Which, whether or not you believe he existed or was a deity, is not a bad thing. Conservatives like McCain clearly don't have a clue what Jesus was about and it's sad that so many of His followers in this country don't see that.

[otohara]

25. Obama Was "We" - McCain "Me"

the crowd ate up McCain as if he had a halo around his head. They were respectful to Obama, but went nuts over McCains pandering answers and lame jokes.

[me b zola]

18. McCain's answer to the question of how he lives out his faith everyday

was a war story from over forty years ago. To paraphrase McCain, I prayed everyday that I was a prisoner. Does he relive that trauma everyday? If so he doesn't need to be anywhere near the levers of power.

Obama expressed an understanding of the message of Christ, where as McCain showed absolutely no understanding of that message at all. The alarming thing of it is how many in that audience didn't seem to notice.

[Divine Discontent]

36. EXACTLY!

the audience just went in there with their preconceived notions of each candidate and ignored how short McCain was on things, and how clearly Obama spoke about 'faith'. Sad... people live with blinders - however - we know there are some that had to have seen the light, and that's good.

[Cosmocat]

60. It wasn't about faith ...

it was about politics ...

As noted, BO displayed a viceral integration of faith in his life ...

McCain couldn't even fake it ...

[1Hippiechick]

83. "The alarming thing of it is how many in that audience didn't seem to notice." Oh, yes they did.

And if they did any reflection at all--or if they read the transcriptions or watch the videos--and I believe they will probably create "discussion groups" to discuss the videos--it will be obvious.

[Indiana_Dem]

85. I have 2 in-laws that are Rick Warren people--

When I get a chance I'll have to feel them out as to how they're thinking after seeing this. They will be a good litmus test of what this particular group of people will think. I don't speak with them that often because they live out of ste from me but if the opportunity arises I'll let everyone know how they're thinking. I sent them pictures of me with Obama. They know I've been an Obama person from the beginning.

[1Hippiechick]

88. Great! I may have to "drop in" on a progressive Baptist church that is affiliated with Saddleback

to hear what the local buzz is here. (No longer part of that church b/c the minister who was a great teacher was a rabid Repuke who watched Limpballs.) I will never forget the night that he mentioned watching that idiot. I asked the guy next to me, "Did he just say that he watches Rush Limbaugh? Please tell me that he didn't just say what I think he said." Shaking my head as I write this...

[me b zola]

89. I agree that there was an open minded contingency in the room

...and that the audience was much larger/broader than what was in that room.

My point was just how frightening are those rw christians who were clearly in the tank for McCain. I've noted several times in the past few years how what they are being sold as christianity hasn't the slightest thing to do with the teachings of Christ, that in fact they have thrown Jesus under the bus. I don't talk a lot about my own spiritual beliefs on this board, but what the rw has done in disappearing Jesus from their "worship" is disgusting.

[CitizenPatriot]

107. I agree

I felt that some of the audience got to know Obama in a new way -- and respected him for it. This is positive, even if they don't vote for him. Why? Because while they may have had prejudices before meeting him and hearing him speak, I sense that some of those ideas were challenged and could not hold up under the reality of the man in person. This is a great victory for humanity-- though it is a small step.

I'm glad that Obama (or any leader) has a sense of internal spirituality which can guide him in tough times and which connects him to all people. Any religion or spiritual guidance can offer this -- and I hope we don't get hung up on Christianity. I honestly can't imagine Christ thinking it was imperative that he and his name be recognized as the only source of righteousness. We can see goodness no matter what the label or name of color or origin it comes in.

I think the evening was a huge shift and a success for Obama. we can't listen to the sad puppets of ministry of propaganda anymore -- only people with no clue are listening to them anymore. They are the wave of yesterday and a part of the problem that can't be fixed via them. They must be replaced, ignored, and perhaps pitied if you have it in you:-) Only KO and Rachel and a few others have any sense of reason and are paying attention to what is going on while we are all being placated with bad food and mind-numbing entertainment.

[Motown_Johnny]

19. DOH,, I was about to make a smart ass remark, but then I read the p,s,

[Zhade]

20. "I don't make smart remarks about their beliefs" - LACK of beliefs, you mean.

We atheists don't have beliefs like you do.

And, no offense, your beliefs don't get automatic deference. If they're ridiculous, they're ridiculous.

[Whisp]

23. good post. and I don't like those smart remarks about others beliefs either.

some people figure that all religious people are dangerous wackos and just can't get over that hump. that's tragic.

[Zhade]

30. And some of us just think you believe in nonsense.

Doesn't mean we think you're dangerous.

Of course, there's no way to know, given that we don't really know what beliefs you act on that we don't know about. I figure if you're here and sincere, though, that you're probably safe.

[Whisp]

40. actually personally I'm not religious at all in the traditional sense

but having some respect for those that do isn't too hard for me.

[1Hippiechick]

61. Then you are on the right track."Religion" is what Christ taught AGAINST. It's SPIRITUALITY that we

aim for.

[Zhade]

96. I have respect for PEOPLE. I am not required to respect religious beliefs, and I don't.

NT!

[and-justice-for-all]

24. I found this "Faith Forum" to be absurd...

and a waste of time.

Lets have a them debate on TED with a panel of Scientist, from all fields rather than these continued forums hosted by irrational people.

[otohara]

26. Yes, Yes, The Ted People

is an excellent idea.

[Divine Discontent]

28. I appreciate your remarks from beginning to end

exactly - Obama's comments were much more expressive - McCain avoided revealing anything, and when you're asked about a public witness of your faith in Jesus, you tend to say more if asked.

And you're not alone in your latter comments, although, many on DU are very accepting, like we are of their other beliefs or non-belief, but there are some of the non-belief crowd (I said some) that must really be so angry at churches that they feel we're a threat to them, when they should realize we spend some of our time on a very progressive board.

Thanks for your measured comments. I appreciate what Obama did, but this silly religion forum gave McSame to sound like McNut and they ate it up as all he did was give code words.

[seasat]

29. A core belief is that you are saved by faith not acts

Obama talked mainly about faith while McCain only really talked about acts.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Otherwise, they'd be Catholic.

[Top Cat]

72. What's wrong with catholics?

[BlooInBloo]

73. WTF are you talking about?

[Indiana_Dem]

44. Good observation! nt

[1Hippiechick]

62. People who interpret "acts" as the "rules and regs" of "religion" are Pharisees. They equate "acts"

with salvation. "Faith without works is dead" is true, but faith--belief--is paramount. The acts are a manifestation of faith, IMO.

[Indiana_Dem]

68. Very good! nt

:applause:

[Withywindle]

31. Thank you!

Coming from one who is very much NOT "saved" - I recognize there is a (very very slim) possibility that the Abrahamic religious family just **might** be the correct spiritual paradigm out of thousands upon thousands that our species has produced....and if it is, I want out because I find it morally repulsive.

McCain's flavor of it is the worst of the worst. Willing to worship a deity who wants to commit billions to hell (this the aspect I find most offensive - how on EARTH is this a good quality) but not willing to assume the responsibility of considering this might possibly apply to him!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[K8-EEE]

35. I'm just sick of the "Judeo-Christian" superiorty/persecution complex

The one thing I have thank Bush for - he got me to think about my religion (Catholicism) and give it up. That "values voter/Christian vote" nonsense in 2004 was the final straw. I came to the conclusion it's not God people are talking to...they're just talking to themselves. I cannot believe any benevolent God would endorse Bush/Cheney and their wicked deeds; however just like Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet etc., Christianity can be the dictator's best friend.

I think it's just ridiculous that somebody with the rational, Deist beliefs of Thomas Jefferson could not even get elected in this country anymore. I don't think all in all religion is a positive influence in modern America.

[Zhade]

38. Hear, hear.

NT!

[Indiana_Dem]

46. That's also why I left organized religion but that doesn't mean I

have left my faith. That's all it is is faith. Belief in things not seen.

[rockymountaindem]

50. I just want to interject here: please don't let your image of Jews be shaped by the phrase "Judeo-

Christian". The only people who say that in this context are the evangelical Christians. You will practically never hear a Jew say it because the two religions are quite different. I'm just saying please don't lump us Jews in with the people who use the "Judeo-Christian" phrase most often, like Dobson and the late Rev. Falwell.

[1Hippiechick]

63. "Christianity can be the dictator's best friend" Look what has been done TO people in the name of

"Christianity" beginning with the invasion of North America and the slave trade. Gee, these wonderful Europeans who invaded North America and "Christianized" the Native Americans. The slave traders who bought and sold people like cattle, and treated them worse. That was all done in the name of Christianity. As I have said on other posts, the Christian "brand" has become so tainted that many of us do not call ourselves "Christians" - rather, we are "Christ Followers" who try to live lives of love and caring concern for others--usually the ones that the far right "Christians" turn their noses up at.

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. thank you for your courageous post

Some of the idiotic comments made by some people have no more intellectual honesty than the ravings of Pat Robertson,

[PurgedVoter]

42. I'm a liberal fundamentalist!

And I don't buy that the Bible is word for word perfect. Anyone who thinks it is, needs to read it again.
Anyone who reads what Jesus said and comes up with a conservative viewpoint is a loon.

Selfish people have been using twisted 'Bible Logic' since the moment the Bible was considered an authority.

Here is a fun one for the silly conservative Christians, adultery, such as what McCain has done, requires the death sentence for men. Always! There are circumstances where women can get away with it. So clearly, God will punish us if we let McCain become president.

[Indiana_Dem]

47. (Joke) --->Jesus was a Democrat. Moses was a Republican.

Why?
Jesus served the multitudes.
Moses served the Chosen Few.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

No, seriously, for all of you athiests and others who responded--I REALLY think on my own and I even found an enlightening book written by an athiest or agnostic that you might even like...it is called _Ishmael_ by Daniel Quinn. His theories incorporated into this story have made me form an opinion about some of what's in the bible books. You guys really ought to read it. It makes the bible make a whole lot more sense in some parts!Awesome book. It explains why we are where we are today.

[Forkboy]

53. I don't know if Moses was Republican or not....

But anyone who takes forty years to make what should be a two week trek would make a good one.

:hide:

Good joke, btw. :)

[1Hippiechick]

64. Read Lee Stroebel's works - confirmed aetheist - here is a link to his YouTube testimony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

Our older son is 35 and has been an agnostic until 5 years ago. Lee Stroebel's works appealed to our son b/c Lee set out to disprove Christianity and in the process becamse a Christ follower. Lee's background is in journalism and law - legal editor.

In case you are a spiritual seeker.....

[barack the house]

48. The ludicrous thing is being liberal is very christian. Help the sick and poor and work for peace...

Even in the book of genesis it talks of help the environment. As for abortion it's judge not yet ye be judged. I take that to be we do the compassion and him up stairs does the rest. The abortion movement is pure ego that the bible doesn't advocate for. As for is there a heaven it's right here our work is to move the world closer and closer to that in our development. My guess we keep coming back till we get it right. I'm atheist in I can't believe what I can't see scientifically but I am open to a possibility of something larger than ourselves.

[DemBones DemBones]

56. Yes, until hate comes in. Hate is not Christian and

shouldn't be liberal yet there's hate here for the Christian religion, for Republicans, and for Democrats like Hillary Clinton, simply because she won the popular vote and is close in delegates to Obama. What a terrible crime, to run a good race as a Democrat!

People seem to forget that it is possible to disagree without hating anyone.

[Lisa0825]

74. *sigh* She didn't win the popular vote

unless you totally screw with the numbers. :eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

84. I don't hate Christians

but I do hate what their tight embrace of irrationality, superstition, and "faith" (which is believing what you know ain't so -- Mark Twain) has done to our country.

[Zhade]

97. CLINTON DID NOT WIN THE POPULAR VOTE. STOP LYING TO YOURSELF.

By the way, there's no crime in hating religion, and it's not persecution, so get the fuck over yourself.

[Median Democrat]

51. AGREE - The RW Treats Abortion and Gay Issues As An Easy Get Out of Hell Card

One thing about the Evengelical hardline right is that they dwell on "moral issues" like abortion and homosexuality, and ignore the major areas where liberals and christian viewpoints SHOULD overlap like social justice. Republicans have used these divisions to control the Presidency. However, issues like the education, social security and health care should be issues that christians and liberals directly overlap. I am not talking the corporate christianity that is sponsored by corporations. I am talking about the Christianity in the bible, not as preached by James Dobson and other hate mongers.

Now, I really like how Obama noted that great evil is often perpetrated in the name of good. This is an issue that the RW does not want to touch, because it really undermines the us against them worldview they like to push, because it forces you to examine whether you are really perpetrating good. Was

Abortion and homesexuality are the two big issues by hard line evangelical christian types. However, how often are these subjects mentioned in the bible? Homosexuality? Only about 5 specific times, though fundametalists can get up to 20 or so with some creative interpretation. Abortion? First, abortion is not referenced in the bible at all, and most of the Religious Right's teaching is to a few references to a prophet in a womb.

Now, what about poverty? The bible has close to 200 clear references to poverty, perhaps up to 300 if you read poverty expansively.

So, why does the Religious Right dwell on abortion and homosexuality while paying little attention to poverty? Because homosexuality and abortion is a them issue, it is not a you issue. Poverty is a you issue that forces each Christian to deal with it right now.

If you are a straight male, you can stand still and avoid having an abortion or being gay. Sweat free christianity.

HOWEVER, poverty and social justice? Now, that forces you get off your duff and do something about it.

So, I am not going to bash on Christians who are serious about getting back to what the bible is really about, rather than focusing on issues that are not mentioned that often if at at all such as abortion and homesexuality.

[Indiana_Dem]

54. Good insight. I'm bookmarking my own post because of you! nt

[1Hippiechick]

65. That's the "Pharisee Faction" as I call them but they don't seem themselves that way. Rules and regs

are their "focus" and they represent exactly what Christ taught AGAINST. Obama was spot on in the debate and showed much more knowledge of spiritual teachings than McBomb's "religion."

[XemaSab]

52. Thank you for this

I know a lot of people here don't trust people of faith, but ALL true Christians wrestle with their faith every day, in my experience. It's the ones that don't you have to watch out for. :o

[DemBones DemBones]

55. With all due respect, I don't believe that anyone

can really tell if someone believes in Christ from what they say.

George Bush doesn't just say he's saved. He can tell a story of faith and being born again that convinces fundamentalists, including ministers. Does that mean he is a believing born again Christian, or a guy who learned how to talk the talk well enough to fool people? We may think he's just lying but we can't know his thoughts or anyone else's.

Mainstream Christians don't see a need to be "born again" because we believe our baptism as infants was our birth in Christ, with our parents and godparents making the promises for us and being responsible for teaching us our faith. We Catholics renew our baptismal vows at Easter, during Mass.

We are committed to our faith and we have profound religious experiences, just as "born again" Christians do. But we don't usually discuss our religious experiences with people we don't know well. It's just not part of our tradition and is probably most at odds with Episcopal tradition, because of the strong British influence.

John McCain was an Episcopalian until he married Cindy. They attend a Baptist church but I don't think he has ever become a Baptist. He was also raised in the military culture as his father was a Naval officer and then he had a twenty-year Navy career himself before entering politics. When you come from a culture and religion that emphasizes formality and discipline, and are a man as well, you're just not likely to be too open about your deepest beliefs and experiences. Obama's life experiences have been very different.

McCain may have been talking about very deep experiences when he prayed every day as a prisoner but unwilling to give details.

He and his wife adopted an orphan from Bangladesh, an infant with a hare lip and cleft palate, which is certainly the sort of thing Christians should do if they are able to. Cindy does a lot of charitable work, for years she headed a medical mission group that she founded, went to different countries to help poor children with medical problems,is now active with a group campaigning against land mines, several others. It's informative to read candidate's web sites, I've read them all.

Maybe McCain and Obama are both true Christians, maybe neither is, maybe just one is.



I definitely agree that it is wrong for people to criticize others because of their theism or atheism, have been making that point here for years. The left should not be an enemy to religion if it wants to win elections.

[1Hippiechick]

66. "The left should not be an enemy to religion if it wants to win elections." It takes educating the

far-right wackos the difference between spirituality and religion (Pharisaical teachings), imo.

[saltpoint]

57. Fundamentalists in large number are Republican-voting droids. This is not

to say you are, as you obviously invest serious thought into your citizenship as an American.

My objections to fundamentalists involve those fundamentalists who distribute "Voter Guides" in church -- in their tax-exempt churches -- which smear Democrats; those fundamentalists who bring pressure to bear on media to remove anything controversial from broadcast; those fundamentalists who torment and taunt women at abortion clinics; those fundamentalists who make such a theatrical show of opposing Hallowe'en; and those fundamentalists who organize against Democrats by initiating and fanning the flames for "ballot initiatives" which are hateful, intemperate, and divisive.

When I dismiss fundamentalists, THOSE are the funadamentalists I mean.

[Jim Lane]

59. An agnostic responds

There's no bright line about what's out of bounds when it comes to religion. You don't want us to "knock down" your views. Well, we can disagree with your views, we can even "make smart remarks about (your) beliefs", and yet still support your freedom to believe as you will. A commitment to tolerance and respect for all religions doesn't mean immunity from serious criticism. It doesn't even mean complete immunity from satire and snarkiness, although there is some ill-defined point at which that kind of response becomes objectionable.

As it happens, in another thread I posted an excerpt from a novel that has some scathing passages about organized religion. You can see it here: . I think this is knocking down the beliefs of at least some Christians, but I don't think it's intolerant. I'd be interested to know whether this is the kind of thing that you're taking exception to.

[1Hippiechick]

67. Have you read any of Lee Stroebel's works?

Here's a short video from YouTube, if you are interested. Our 35 y.o. son was agnostic until 5 years ago when he began reading Stroebel's works voraciously. Not trying to change your mind here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs

[Jim Lane]

91. Thanks for the link

In that video, Strobel talks about his conversion from atheism based on evidence. To me, atheism means a belief that there is no God. I characterize myself as agnostic, rather than atheist, because the limited evidence available to us is consistent with both hypotheses, so neither can be established satisfactorily.

According to , he seems to be a partisan of intelligent design and an opponent of evolution. I must confess my bias here -- that viewpoint lessens an author's credibility in my mind.

[Zhade]

99. NO. That is wrong. Atheism IS NOT the belief in no gods.

It is the LACK of belief in them based on the lack of evidence for them.

[Jim Lane]

104. I've seen it used both ways.

The begins: "Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism."

The website of ReligiousTolerance.org has a more detailed discussion of these two different ways of using the term:

Most of the North American public define an "Atheist" is a person who believes that no deity exists: neither a God, nor a Goddess, nor a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses. This definition is reflected in American dictionaries -- not just because most publishers are Christian, but because it is the purpose of dictionaries to follow the public's word usage. Some individuals who consider themselves Atheists mesh well with that definition. But they may be in the minority. Many, perhaps most, Atheists simply have no belief about deity. For them, Atheism is not disbelief in a deity or deities; it is simply a lack of belief in any of them. (from )

I personally find the more common usage to be more useful, because it facilitates a distinction between two different nontheistic viewpoints: (1) There is no god (= atheism); (2) We cannot know whether there are any gods or not (= agnosticism). Obviously, however, based on these two sources, there's also considerable support for your understanding of the term.

[JustAnotherGen]

69. Thank you for this Indiana_Dem

I needed to read your thoughts this morning. I'm a UU - not a Christian. It's refreshing to read the perspective of someone who DOES follow that belief system that perhaps looks at things the same way as I do . . .I.E. Separation of Church and state ALSO means the State should stay the heck out of my religion. ;-)

[DailyGrind51]

86. I am a Catholic and life-long Liberal who agrees that intolerance

to people of any faith is "bigotry", clear and simple, no matter how hard it tries to mask itself as intellectualism. The fact that Grover Norquist And Karl Rove have duped the weak-minded and the CINOs to believe that "they" really share "our" values is just as odious.

[Popol Vuh]

87. Tolerance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mts49wtW-3M

[nichomachus]

94. Religion has no place in politics -- period. n/.t

[SoxFan]

98. Begs to differ

[DailyGrind51]

103. Thank you!

[nichomachus]

108. That makes sense

only if MLK had been trying to force people to join his church. This is what today's crop of Christians are doing.

[blondeatlast]

101. That's how this Xtian saw the forum too, Obama lives his faith,

which is oftten a challenge on many levels.

McCain just believes, which is so damn easy.

My favorite Book of the Bible is Matthew--the entire book of Matthew is a challenge to live one's belief in Christ rather than just to proclaim it. That can be very hard to do sometimes--and this mere human has failed many times.

[JerseygirlCT]

102. Oh absolutely! He was visibly uncomfortable with the question

and immediately tried to switch to yet another POW anecdote. There wasn't anything sincere in it - every question was just another jumping off point to more talking points.