Well, I hate to say I told you so....but this Saddleback Church event WAS a trap.

[Bicoastal]

And not because of the questions asked, either.

Because it was immediately clear to me that 90% of the people in the audience--members, I'm guessing, of Warren's church, and thus part of the only religious denomination standing firmly behind their Republican nominee (Evangelicals)--were behind McCain's answers from the very beginning.

What do you feel about abortion?

"I'm against it." (Crowd goes wild.)

What do you feel about gay marriage?

"I'm against it." (Crowd goes wilder.)

So he won THEM over. Someone on cnn.com is saying that McCain's task from the beginning was to get Bush's base to line up behind him, obediently, as they did every 4 years. So mission accomplished, I suppose. But Obama was never going to have this crowd behind HIS stance on these issues in a million years. Not without betraying his core principles. So he was honest, gave what he clearly believed to be the truth and got less applause from the Evangelical audience. No one, not Warren, and especially not Obama, was there to remind this audience how many times McCain had changed his mind on these same issues, or areas in which he was just plain mistaken. But never mind--McCain repeated the same old Conservative bromides, and they cheered him wildly for it.

And may I remind everyone that this wasn't supposed to be a contest to see who could get the loudest response from Rick Warren's church--it was supposedly going to be a conversation with the American people from all walks of my life. But my worry is that the 90% of the country, busy watching the Olympics, is going to watch pre-edited news coverage of this event and go--"Well, whoever those people in the audience are, they're applauding McCain more. McCain must be the stronger candidate."

T-R-A-P.

[TexasObserver]

1. Yep. A Set up. And McCain had the questions in advance.

[Skwmom]

58. No wonder he limited press access. He must have spent his time

memorizing the answers. No one answers questions without a pause to construct their thoughts and answers. He's on record fumbling for answers, yet he just rattles of the answers to multiple questions in one night? No way.

[TexasObserver]

63. Yes. Not just prepared, but WELL prepared.

He was like a kid who got a copy of the test ahead of time. He couldn't wait to pounce on the question with his prefab answer. He even messed up when he asked if this was where he should talk about the Supreme Court, or if that was coming later.

[hisownpetard]

72. Totally!! Several commentators marveled afterwards at how quick McCain was with his responses, even

answering "before the question was completed."

Yeah, right. As we've seen time and again, he is not quick on his feet, nor does he ever answer in complete sentences.
His answers were rehearsed and memorized, whereas Obama was hearing them for the first time. And, if you look at all the questions
in the aggregate, I believe they were specifically designed to cover all the points that McCain needed/wanted to address.

I would bet the farm on it.

Edited to add:

It was made even more abundantly clear when, instead of facing the person who asked the question, McCain turned toward the camera and addressed
his rehearsed answer to the TV audience.

So although the format has been hailed by some commentators as a brilliantly controlled environment with the same audience, the same questions/questioner, I believe
it was hugely tilted in McCain's favor.

The Republicons can do nothing fairly.

[Muttocracy]

2. because of the live audience, yes. nt

[Ian David]

3. Yup. n/t

[stray cat]

4. Free publicity for Obama with a crowd who can pay $1000/seat

I think Obama played better than McCain to the TV audience

[Epiphany4z]

6. I agree

but boy MSNBC is working hard to knock it down

[Andy823]

12. I agree.

Most of those in the audience were not going to vote for Obama in the first place. I too think that those at home will be able to get more out of what Obama said, and see through the pandering canned answers given by McCain.

[polpilot]

62. Great prep for Obama's debates in the future. Good move by campaign.

This is about the undecideds & McWar lost. Undecideds...unimpressed by ALL of McWar's pandering to a pro-McWar crowd.

[bluerum]

5. Yes - the tired out "legislate from the bench" got a hearty round of applause.

I was thinking ya - as long they legislate in your favor you're ok with it.

[Bobbie Jo]

51. Following Bin Laden to the 'Gates of Hell' was a real crowd pleaser too. nt

[Thrill]

7. Obama didn't hurt himself. He did what he was suppose to do

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

8. Much to my surprise

Warren played it very evenhandedly. The questions both were asked were essentially exact quotes, He lost control when Grampy McShit started playing to the crowd. Obama took the whole thing seriously; Grampy was either telling war stories or sounding as simpleminded as the Chimp.

[Skittles]

9. anyone who couldn't see this coming is a f***ing IDIOT n/t

[krabigirl]

25. Yep. That this even was allowed to happen is disgusting, and an outrage.

[Skittles]

35. I don't understand even agreeing to a debate with a f'n PASTOR

:thumbsdown:

[XemaSab]

41. It was a dialogue, and not a debate, and I thought the guy's questions

were really good. :shrug:

[Skittles]

43. so how much did faith come up

too fucking much :thumbsdown:

[americanstranger]

64. Maybe, umm, because it was in a church?

Duh.

- as

[BlooInBloo]

10. He went to the devil's lair, and performed excellently.

[Andy823]

15. Great way to put it.

I think he knew what it would be like, and I think he did better with the TV audience than those at the church.

[cynatnite]

11. This was a bullshit forum from the beginning...

I said so, too. This is what happens when elections turn into christianity contests.

Glad I didn't watch this.

I'm pissed as hell Obama agreed to this.

[Diamonique]

21. I'm glad he did it.

Obama gave thoughtful answers to the questions asked. McCain gave talking points from his speeches and told POW stories.

I think McCain helped himself hold onto the fundies, but he didn't make any inroads to the independents or the disaffected Rethugs.

Obama was never going to get the fundies anyway. But at least they -- and everyone else -- can now see that the "empty shirt" meme is pure B.S. They may not agree with him, but they know he's not empty. He held on to his base and made some inroads into the independents and the disaffected Rethugs.

[Spazito]

13. If it was a trap, it didn't work....

Obama knew going in who would be in the audience and what their focus would be. It is a Christian fundamentalist crowd, they lean republican.

Obama risked little by doing this and gained the opportunity to open some eyes about who he is and what he believes.

[Motown_Johnny]

14. We all klnew that going in, the idea is to try and peel away some of his base and to be more

acceptable to moderates.


Obama did a great job

[flamingdem]

16. Obama knew what would happen, it's good for women to hear McLame's anti-choice rap nt

[Middle finga]

17. Do Obama really need that Evangelical Bush Base?

Those simple minded folks don't care about thoughtful and reasoned answers. Stop running behind these voters and go after those tens of millions of eligible voters that didn't vote in 04.

[americanstranger]

65. That's what his ground game is doing.

He's got four times the campaign infrastructure in the states than McCain has.

He's been setting this up to go after those voters since, pardon the expression, Day One.

- as

[flamingdem]

18. Obama looked good, we need to work to get him elected on the real issues nt

[theoldman]

19. I am sure that Obama was smart enough to know the

audience he was facing. He was hoping to get a few of them to change their minds. If he succeeded in this, he came out ahead. I don't think that McCain won over any new supporters. Don't forget that the largest audience were the TV viewers. I don't think McCain won over many of them.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

23. Obama was playing to the TV audience

Grampy McShits was playing to the room.

[oldleftguy]

20. It was a trap!

McCain was among friends, clear in his dogma.

Obama was in the lions den, and should have never entered a forum like this.

This may not end well.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Let's recognize religion for the yoke that it is!

It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society.

V.I. Lenin
Socialism and Religion

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people<1>.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Karl Marx
Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

24. Ian Anderson put it well

1.. In the Beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he Him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.

4. And Man formed Aqualung from the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind.

5. And these lesser men did Man cast into the void. And some were burned; and some were put apart from their kind.

6. And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did rule over all the earth.

7. But as all these things did come to pass the Spirit that did cause Man to create his God lived on within all men: even within Aqualung.

8. And Man saw it not.

9. But for Christ's sake, he'd better start looking.

[KittyWampus]

28. without a yoke you cannot plow a field. Without plowing fields you cannot sustain civiliazation

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. No, no no.. without a yoke the PROLETARIAT cannot plow the fields

Without the proletariat, the Robber Barons would starve!

[ArbustoBuster]

74. The yoke is not for the benefit of the oxen who are yoked.

It's for the benefit of the farmer.

Under this metaphor, religion benefits priests and prophets, not the common worshiper.

[chatnoir]

26. How did this fundie forum come to be anyhow

between Barack & McBush? Unless I erased it from memory, I don't recall some fundie forum back in 2000 or 2004...

[Arkana]

27. He showed he wasn't afraid to visit an unfriendly forum, sit in front of

a very unfriendly audience, and talk honestly and at length about issues that most Democrats avoid because they're too afraid.

Fuck this Admiral Ackbar "ITZ A TRAP" bullshit.

[grantcart]

29. Really

McCain didn't gain a single evangelical vote because he is already leading 69-29 and its not going any higher.



On the other hand McCain made the most radical declaration of life begining at conception possible. I wonder how all of the professional women who were pissed at Obama and love Hillary thought about that? I don't think that McCain picked up a single vote but anybody that is pro choice just had their vote decided.

[RagAss]

30. I Posted this Thread Yesterday and Got Beat Up Here....

"The voice of reason is normally drowned out by the clatter of egos"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6641521&mesg_id=6641521

[Mark E. Smith]

31. My wife, our 2 kids and I were out there on there on the street ...

... and Obama signs ruled the wasteland. Great bunch of people out for this one.

2nd place? Ron Paul folks. Man, are they a group living in their own special reality.

Hardly any McCain supporters, though. Bob Avakian supporters were more numerous. One rather
drunken fellow with a stack of McCain signs wandered about looking for takers, and in vain. Our
people kept patting him on the back, leaving a lot of Obama stickers there. Dude was oblivious.

Next time we're making a banner that will say "Insane McCain." I feel the need for something a
little more confrontational.

[scot]

42. The McCain supporters were inside.

[hisownpetard]

73. A big thank you to you and your family for doing that!

:hi: :thumbsup:

[Naturyl]

32. Trap or not, it just wasn't good for us.

Obama did fairly well but appeared somewhat nervous and didn't score any real home runs. McCain swaggered in with the home crowd waiting and took charge with the kind of simplistic one-liners Americans love. Who really couldn't tell that a "forum on faith" would not be the best venue for us? And what are the chances of us ever seeing a "forum on rational thinking" where Obama would have the kind of obvious advantage McSame had tonight? Yep, precisely zip.

[JackORoses]

37. you are wrong. Obama is employing a brilliant strategy.

If you cannot see it now, you will later. Don't worry.

[Naturyl]

39. Not going to explain what that would be?

Just proclaiming "you are wrong" followed by no case is not very convincing.

[JackORoses]

46. if you can't comprehend it now, I cannot explain it to you

once he has garnered results, it will be easier for you to understand.

[Naturyl]

48. That's a cop-out

And condescending to boot. I assure you I can understand anything you might have to say. So, with all due respect, lay out an argument or don't bother to address me.

[JackORoses]

50. you don't have to understand anything I say. Do you understand what Obama is doing?

If you don't, then do you really want me to go to the lengths of explaining it in detail,
or would you rather just wait and see for yourself?

[Naturyl]

53. Whatever. You can tell me briefly or not, it's up to you

But this nonsense of pretending you are privy to some exclusive insight beyond my comprehension has got to go. How would you like to be treated like that?

Outline it briefly or don't. Your call. But don't just assert superior understanding and refuse to back it up. Is there some reason you are afraid to plainly state your view?

[JackORoses]

71. not exclusive at all

Obama is being inclusive. That is the key. He is not ignoring a great mass of humanity that Democrats have in the past.

He went onto their turf and took their best shots, gracefully.
He demonstrated his Christian faith and reached out compassionately.

This will not change the majority of their minds. But it does open a great big door that was closed before.
And some of those people will come through that door.

It is absolutely necessary for McCain to hold all these people if he wants to stand a chance.
He will fail in this effort. He is not George Bush. He will not be their Pastor-in-Chief.

This is by no means a mistake on Obama's part, it is a highly calculated strategy, and it will work.

Sorry, I didn't go into detail before. Most of the 'concerned' folks on this board don't really want to learn anything.
I see now that you had a genuine question, and are actually interested in a response. I hope this will suffice.

[Generic Brad]

70. Not all evangelical Christians are Republicans

My impression of evangelical Christians is that the majority of them are more concerned with social justice and literally enacting the teachings of Jesus. While the crowd at Saddleback may have been more Republican friendly, I thought Obama did a credible job and was trying to establish goodwill with the majority of evangelicals sitting on the fence.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our third quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[AllentownJake]

34. When Obama announces his VP pick this week

How much footage of Saddleback will be played. They'll leak they are announcing it soon and the news shows will all be "Who is it going to be?"

[JackORoses]

36. it was Obama's Trap, and he did catch a few percent of McCain's base with it

wait and see....

[thewiseguy]

38. No it was not. He spoke to McCain's base and delivered a strong performance.

Going into this event I was not considering the evangelical crowd to be on Obama's side.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. I think Obama is trying to win over educated religious demographic

I don't think anybody is under the illusion that he will win over evangelicals en masse. But I do think he can appeal to the more educated people of deep faith because they will at least listen to what he has to say.

[barack the house]

44. I think Obama did what was right to his voters and explained to those who are not why he believed...

as he did. He did very good I thought and was very diplomatic.

[McCamy Taylor]

45. No duh. I could have told you this before hand. Axelrod is not even trying to win the general.

He needs to be replaced with someone who knows what he is doing.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elkston]

52. You wrote some decent essays a while back, but lately you've been really annoying.

[Skwmom]

59. Like James Carville or one of the Clinton loyalists?

Yeah that would be a great idea.

Axelrod and team are doing a great job, especially when you consider that they are fighting 3 fronts.

[rufus dog]

49. Only about 500 tickets were sold out of 5000

The rest were given away, mostly to church employees, that is how I got in. The guy two seats down from me keep turning to his wife (?) when McCain was on and stated, "this is just his stump speech."

[Diamonique]

61. You were there?

If you have an OP with your impressions of the Forum, I'd love to read it.

[trashcanistanista]

54. I got home late and watched the repeat of McCain

first and now I am watching the next repeat with Obama. He is outstanding. McCain was a dud and I think people applauded his idiocy to be polite. I think Obama won the church audience and the tv audience tonight. He was excellent. I sensed Warren favored Obama more, but I heard that beforehand he is an Obama supporter. It was pretty fairly done. Obama did an outstanding job defending pro choice, stem cells and gay marriage. He stood his ground and did not pander. They can take it or leave it. He got applause at places I did not expect. We will get some supporters from this. He was genuine. I think they saw it.

[Frank Booth]

55. This was great for Obama.

Of course he knew that the crowd would be pro-McCain. But except for the political freaks that frequent websites like DU, the only people paying attention to this event are Evangelicals.

And by participating and doing well, Obama has likely made a dent in McCain's support among Evangelicals. The Democrat will never win the Evangelical vote, but if Obama could chip off 5% more than we got last time, that could tip the election.


McCain gained nothing tonight because he had nothing to gain. Obama, on the other hand, has cemented his status as a viable alternative for some Evangelicals.

[Cronus Protagonist]

56. I tend to agree with you

And it was, even if it gained no votes, a good trial run for both candidates, but Obama was on hostile ground, McCain was the old coach from a winning season to the people there - he had everything to lose and nothing to gain. Perhaps McCain didn't lose too many of his base, but Obama would surely have peeled off a few of those educated Christians.

On short, McCain got a softball free-ride and Obama was tested under fire. Both came out unscathed, but Obama came out with more swing voters as well.

[Mass]

60. I agree. I have not seen it, but, from what the media are reporting (the only thing that will matter

it is a trap, a way to describe Obama as intellectual and McCain as direct and down to earth.

[Avalux]

66. Obama bravely ventured into enemy territory last night and did very well.

McCain was playing to his base; he had a captive audience. The questions were tailor-made for him and he probably had plenty of time to rehearse his segment. It was more of a talk show segment complete with glib little answers to get a rise out of the crowd.

Obama was sincere, reflective and humble; he answered questions intelligently. If he changed the mind of even one person in that room, it was worth it.

[Hobarticus]

67. You really need to give "the country" more credit...

Granted, "the country" has put a silver-spoon drunken fratboy at the wheel for the last eight years, but I think they've realized that they need to take a closer look at things for themselves, and not just gobble what the media is spooning them. Too much is at stake.

[Hepburn]

68. Name anything about the Religious Right that is NOT a trap!

IMO, there is NO way to win with those nutso RR types except to be sure and be on point about women being unequal and walking three paces behind the hubby at all times.

JMHO

[workinclasszero]

69. I thought O did great

So the crowd goes wild for McWar, what did you expect? He will say anything to get elected. The funny thing is, McCain hates the religious right and his record proves it.

I think undecideds will like what Obama had to say last night.