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Can We Get Some Squirrels To Clear Out The (Left )Wing Nuts?

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:51 AM
Original message
Can We Get Some Squirrels To Clear Out The (Left )Wing Nuts?


Divide and conquer—that's what they try to do to any group trying to make social change. I call it D&C. Black people are supposed to turn against Puerto Ricans. Women are supposed to turn against their mothers and mothers-in-law. We're all supposed to compete with each other for the favors of the ruling class.

(Florynce R. Kennedy (b. 1916), African American lawyer, author, activist, and humorist. As quoted in The Decade of Women, by Suzanne Levine and Harriet Lyons (1980). Said in 1973.)



I have a request. This is for everyone who thinks that the women of the Democratic party have been acting like stuck up bitches who do not understand how hard it is to live as an African-American in this country, subject to arrest and prosecution for the crime of being Black. It is also is for everyone who thinks that Black men do not understand how hard it is to be female, since every 9 minutes in this country some woman is beaten by her partner. And, it is for women of color who feel like they are being torn in two directions.

Please read Women, Race and Class by Angela Davis. The book describes the history of the unified feminist and abolition movements lead social pioneers like the Grimke Sisters and Frederick Douglas. Davis’s book also tells the story of how the two groups were torn about by circumstance but also by the machinations of capitalist leaders who saw advantage in keeping their two lowest paid wage slaves divided and conquered.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2713755&mesg_id=2713755

The link above is my old book report from January, when DU was in primary mode. Back then, every group hated every other group. If one candidate lost a state, it was because some group in that state was prejudiced. Asians in California did not like Blacks. Neither did Hispanics in Nevada. Men in some states could not stand the idea of women in positions of power. Luckily, that insanity is over. However, I never would have guessed that in mid August, the RNC would still have its moles pitting women against Blacks on the internet, where no one can see that the person posting the inflammatory material is actually some white dude in a business suit named Brad with a degree in political science from a Bible School.

OK, now that you have ordered Women, Race and Class from Amazon.com or whatever book dealer you prefer, I would like you to consider something. The people who come up those paranoid conspiracy theories that go something like “The pant suit wearing minions of Hillary are going to storm the convention and try to steal the nomination and if they can not do that, they will throw the election to John McCain by casting their 18 million votes for the Republican nominee”----these wacko moles sound just like right wing fear mongers . No true progressive or leftist Democrat ever talks like that. Leftists do not fear large unwashed masses of people driven by anger. To Democrats, that is what Democracy looks like. .



Leftists love it when the people speak out. Leftists hate it when the people are silenced by the elite. When a progressive speaks of a conspiracy, they do it in the language that I used above, the language of the Marxist. They talk about capitalists and corporate CEOs and a small cabal of the ultra-rich who conspire to rob the people of their voices. They talk about Karl Rove and the RNC oppo room. No Democratic group on its own would dream up a conspiracy of African-American Obama supporters being bused from caucus to caucus where they could pad the vote. That is straight out of the imaginations of the right wing, which has nightmares about Democratic vote fraud and angry race riots. We are supposed to imagine the million man march in buses rolling from state to state raising its voice at local causes so that no one else can be heard. Kind of like the Brooks Brothers Riot that stopped the recount in Florida.

Think about the fantasies we have been peddled----Hillary’s 18 million pant suited lesbians, Obama’s 18 million strong abomination----and you will see that they could only have arisen in the minds of someone from the right wing---possibly even someone with experience in the U.S. government.

http://www.publiceye.org/liberty/donner.html

New movements are put through subversification to "fuel backlash charges that our national security is endangered by a sinister conspiracy of dissidents who have deliberately depleted out intelligence resources to prepare the way for a takeover." In this Kafka-meets-Orwell world, lack of evidence of the conspiracy becomes proof that one exists. Donner explains that "Since no evidence of such a conspiracy will emerge, the accusers will exploit, as in the past, its nonexistence: Is it not obvious that a cover-up was part of the conspiracy and that the absence of proof demonstrates it effectiveness?"21 The recent work of journalist Steven Emerson and the interviews with former FBI hardliner Oliver "Buck" Revell are examples of this process.


The thinking which is described in the article above, about government efforts to stifle civil liberties and dissent, is consistent with that which is used by those who fabricate the absolutely ludicrous conspiracy theories that have become as common as dirt at progressive forums like DU over the last 12 months.

So, I am calling bullshit on every crackpot story about armies of angry manhaters with unshaven armpits who are out to sabotage the convention and every tale about how the thuggery committed by Obama’s legion of teenaged pranksters has lead to the destruction of life as we know it on this planet.

Anyone who can not hear the right wing scriptmaster behind these kinds of stories has not been paying attention to the propaganda that our government has been churning out for the last fifty years.

Now that you are no longer distracted, you will be able to concentrate on the record 35 million votes cast in the Democratic primary----which means that the Party is 3/5 of the way to victory this fall. No wonder the Republican strategy includes Democratic infighting. If they can not persuade us to fight among ourselves, the chances are we will win.
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nice picture. n/t
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. What do we do about the nuts who have been pushing the
meme that the only way Obama can win is to pick Hillary as his VP?

Oophs, I asked the wrong person.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Very timely question.
Thank you for asking it.

It needed asking.


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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Do you have a refutation for that, or just personal attacks?
If you think we can win while telling half the party to fuck off, chances are good you have been punked by Rove.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
48. It's not an attack, it's a legitimate criticism
of the constant meme that is repeated over and over again by one side. No one is telling one side to "fuck off", we are telling them we won't be held hostage with a gun to our heads by those who make demands and blackmail people. If you believe it is right to continue to hold the party hostage, then you certainly might want to think about voting for McCain.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. The squirrels are tired...
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 04:50 AM by me b zola
They have been feasting on the grey matter members of puma(quite nutty!) and now they are bloated and lazy. Maybe the sloths are not too busy.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. People here completely fell for right-wing crap about the Clintons.
You don't have to like 'em, but gee whiz, even Bob Herbert was slinging that right-wing hash about the Clinton Admin "vandalizing the White House" when the FBI and GAO said there was no such thing. And that was just over a month ago Herbert was citing completely unverified Bush Admin. trash.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very well said
And you've put into words what I've been thinking. I don't believe that there is this 'discord'. I think any 'discord' is being manufactured by the Republican Party and its' minions - the MSM.

So, I am calling bullshit on every crackpot story about armies of angry manhaters with unshaven armpits who are out to sabotage the convention and every tale about how the thuggery committed by Obama’s legion of teenaged pranksters has lead to the destruction of life as we know it on this planet.
Amen. I'm in Central NJ - Clinton Land. I don't know a single woman, be she white, black, hispanic, Indian, middle Eastern, Tunisian, asian - that initially supported Hillary Clinton . . . that is not voting like our daughters, neices, friends daughters lives, Quality of life, ability to prosper and achieve - depends on Barack Obama being in the White House in January. Much as the MSM has tried to stir it up - I think the vast majority of women who identified as liberal/progressive/socialist/democrat at this LAST year - know that John McCain is a mysoginistic asshole.


Anyone who can not hear the right wing scriptmaster behind these kinds of stories has not been paying attention to the propaganda that our government has been churning out for the last fifty years.
And with a high pitched scream for the last 15 years. And the people who really <b>cannot</b> hear or read between the lines and see it for what it is? They are all watching Fox or reading its' website. They aren't 'bad' people per se - they just need to be lead and somewhere got the message that it's bad to question the status quo, and challenge the policies that status quo becomes. Since you are looking at this from a historical perspective - let's remove it from the Civil Rights and Women's Rights movements (hard for me to do - I'm originally from Rochester NY and it's hard to grow up there and not know precisely who Frederick Douglas and Susan B. Anthony are and WHY they are important :-) ) - The 'Status Quo' hated FDR. We all know that here. The reaction of S.Q. to policies that shook up the way America did things in order to pull us out of financial despair? Let's plot to kill him.


Now that you are no longer distracted, you will be able to concentrate on the record 35 million votes cast in the Democratic primary----which means that the Party is 3/5 of the way to victory this fall. No wonder the Republican strategy includes Democratic infighting. If they can not persuade us to fight among ourselves, the chances are we will win.
Yahoo! Woohoo! I couldn't agree more. I think - jmho - that this election CAN be one but it's going to take an overwhelming number of previously DISaffected voters coming out and pulling the lever for Obama & *Insert Name of your favorite Veep Pick Here*. That means we have got to stick together.


Yesterday (maybe the day before) - I posted that I don't feel we call allow Marriage between Gays/Lesbians to be put on the National Agenda. Typing it again - I still feel like I'm throwing this positive progressive force in the Democratic Party under the bus. But I also feel - if we can JUST WIN IT - if we can just stick together and get a Democrat in the WH, and truly strong majorities in the House and Senate . . . we can bring about the change to provide these folks with the protections of marriage that those in LTR's really do need. I.E. Protecting their partner upon their death - which marriage allows. I feel like we need to NOT let Gun Ownership issues become a part of the referendum . . . Want me to go on?

These are 'differences' in people that the MSM can 'play on'. Instead of focusing on issues that affect us all, regardless of our personal lives, religion, belief systems etc. etc. It's really about the 'Economy Stupid'. And it's really about the 'Illegal Occupation of Iraq Stupid'. And it's really about our 'Infrastructure Stupid'. It's about our Environment, Education, Health Care, and aging population of Baby Boomers. I'm not one - but I'll tell you - if we don't take action now to get our arms around the issues that impact them - I foresee a healthcare crisis, financial crisis for these people that have worked hard all their lives in a changing economy that have been nickeled and dimed to death.


If we don't KEEP IT TOGETHER (because I don't believe it's falling apart - the sky is NOT falling) - they (those vile neocons) will steal it again.

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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Divide and Conquer! I have been saying this for years
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 09:02 AM by windoe
knowing as soon as people are on to this ploy, the PEOPLE will be in charge of this country. This requires everyone to make a decision to put aside ALL superficial differences, RECOGNIZE all divisive tactics and not be swayed by them whatsoever, and stay focused on the only issues that matter!!

I love your collage, I do them too!! I did a real trippy one in '84 that looks like it could have been done yesterday, while I was living in AK and awakening to what was going on in the 'lower 48' during the Reagan years...I knew a lot of people who were ranting about the corporate takeover then!! I will eventually get your suggested book, I read Chalice & the Blade (Riane Eisler), back then, Woman as Healer (Jeanne Achterburg) is also good. I thought I would never see these repressive times for women in my lifetime, it is agonizing to watch.

Man this country better wake up on time or we are totally screwed.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. I consider this Rightist claptrap.
You folks just might get your way with your favorite girl candidate but then again you might not.

Last time some of the rest of us checked in on the nomination process, Obama had won and she had lost.

It's not a Left vs. Right thing at all. It's a She Got Her Sorry Butt Whipped thing.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Dude I think you missed the point
unless I am not getting something. We are all on the same side here, the divisiveness is coming from the MSM and we are all behind Obama. Correct me if I am wrong here.
This post is just about the MSM tactics, and the state of affairs for women in general, as I read it.

Have a great morning OC :)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. We're havin' a great morning. Thanks.
I'm just pretty much played out on the OP's pro-Clinton rantings.


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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I have to reread
perhaps I missed something, just human you know :)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I own up to being at LEAST as human as you are.
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 10:09 AM by Old Crusoe
The OP's piece here is intelligent, as any of us would expect from a writer of this caliber, but on points, it wobbles and then crashes.

Who are "the Left," for example, but raving lunatics who want to destroy the Democratic Party, per this piece?

Is the OP including Noam Chomsky in that group? How about Mike Malloy? How about Democrats who aligned with the Left in the past. Bella Abzug, for example. Is she implicated as a destroyer of the Party?

The casting seems unlikely because it's unspecified and the tone is Left-blaming.

The Left has routinely been outnumbered in this country but as Eugene Debs would put it, that suggests that their position is valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

A more balanced characterization would have been useful and fair. I didn't see any tilt and with that absence plus the OP's recent and slobberingly imbalanced rants for a Clinton-only Party, I thought I'd weigh in.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Yep that would include me too
looks like I'm the one that missed this point :blush: being pretty far to the left myself, though not all the way out in the wilderness with the libertarians & anarchists :) , having met many in my travels. I wasn't privy to that last point you made either.

I am firing up unused brain cells as we speak--and thanks for the Eugene Debs link, sounds like we are kin.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. My mom's mom was part of the very socialist farm labor movement
in the years leading up to and during the Depression, and was an activitst for LaFollette.

Debs has been a champion of mine for a while. Plain and direct and right-on kind of mind.

Political parties generally aren't that effective for needed, quick, meaningful reform, but they are what we have available. The trick may be to reform the culture around which the Party defines itself, and to do that, Kurt Vonngeut felt, we have to tap every useful source. He told the Indianapolis STAR in a 1980s interview:

"In order to have a truly healthy society, we have to include people with different ideas. Our society is changing and we have to be able to adapt to those changes. If our number of choices is limited, our chances of survival are less."

I signed on to the LaFollette and Vonnegut models, I guess, because they included more people and looked at things from the ground up instead of the top down. If you limit your choices you lower your odds, and then suddenly the pundits wake up from the corporate-induced Rip Van Winkle snooze and an Afro-American is running for president.

It's kind of exciting to read a paper these days!
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Exclusivity has been so destructive,
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 11:33 AM by windoe
especially in this diverse country, we are so rich in untapped ideas!! Your mom sounds fascinating, and someone to be proud of. We really need to wrest our agriculture from the corps, they are selling the land out from under us, it is so hard to watch.
Getting ready to move west, will be computerless (gasp) till I get settled, am enjoying my last few days online. It has been very exciting to witness so many people coming awake and empowering themselves.
I hope to live with solar and will learn everything I can about independent living. I am 51 so I will be running on wits alone B-)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I. Wish. You. A. Wonderful. Relocation.
And whatever community is lucky enough to get you, I hope they are appreciative.

All good steps. Pick out some favorite CDs for the trip and off ya go!


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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thanks!!
:hi: Got my good tunes ready to roll!! Take care of yourself, been a pleasure!!
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Ah yes, fight rightist claptrap with sexist claptrap!
And don't forget triumphalist claptrap - you bitches better kneel down and obey! That'll convince 'em! :rofl:

Here's a free clue: the enemy is McCain. The longer people pretend Clinton is still the enemy, the more likely we lose.

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I reference no kneel-down "bitches," to use your term.
That's your take.

It's incorrect.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Your incorrect take is that she's still fighting the primaries
All she's doing is pointing out that continuing the primary fight hurts us in the general.

Otherwise, why keep up the "your girl lost - get over it" horseshit? It's ugly, divisive, sexist (and don't even try to refute that one, you'd be hollering if someone called Obama "your boy" and you bloody well know it) and you should do as Barack asked you and drop it, IMFO.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Sorry. At this point the nominee, Barack Obama, is in a position
to offer the veep job to anyone he pleases.

For all I know it could be Hillary Clinton. I hope to Christ it is not Hillary Clinton, but certainly it's a possibilty. Let's hope it is a slim possibility. The slimmer the better, in fact. Worst primary campaign of my lifetime. Riddled with errors and poor judgment and arrogance. Riddled.

It could be Gov. Sebelius. I like her a lot. She was a girl baby.

I love Barabara Boxer, although her selection as veep would likely spook the herd. U.S. voters appear to be a fragile, often-uninformed bunch. Barbara Boxer was also a girl baby.

I didn't hear the OP, or you, or several other DU "feminists" speaking in such vehement support for Senator Moseley-Braun in the 2004 election cycle. How odd. She was a girl baby also.

The flicker of cyberspace you are having this exchange with is a past volunteer for Sen. Boxer and the late Bella Abzug.

Girl babies both.


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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I was busy fundraising for Senator Moseley Braun in '04
No time for food fights. But I did end up voting for Dennis in that primary.

Your choice of feminist-baiting words indicates some inner conflict on your part. That's a pity.

I would vote for Boxer in a heartbeart. She's fucking awesome.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I say thanks to you for your support of a great soul. The ABC
interview with her and Congressman Kucinich (another great soul) by then-ABC anchor Ted Koppel, was one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard/seen in my life.

Koppel disregarded their chances owing to the perception (often media-driven perception) of their lack of support in current polling. Koppel was rude, dismissive, and IMO as unprofessional as a political journalist can possibly be. Both she and Kucinich deserved someone like Judith Swallow of the BBC, for instance, for that interview/debate.

You might be surprised how unconflicted I am on the archetypal feminine.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Ah heck, Marrah. You've been on my case since the primaries.
Lighten up.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Oh, but I never played with this one before.
You're probably right, since you usually are and all. :loveya:

I'm gonna go wash my hands now.




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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Amen
:pals:

Everyone get onboard - McCain is the evil one.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. Those of us who are Democrats
See all of this bullshit between the factions as the actions of Republican shit stirrers. Both the hyper pro and hyper anti Clinton folks are on the same freaking side- McCain's side. The end. Nothing good for our nominee or our Party can come from all of this pouting and posing and the attempts to make division.
Rhetoric is easy to spew. All that matters is the objective of the poster. What is the end result of the crap posted? In that way, the PUMA and anti-PUMA folk are the same fucking people with the same exact goals. In fact there is one PUMA obcessed poster on DU that seems to be a promoter of PUMA using negative attacks. 'Tis all she talks about. As if it mattered. As if we are not on the verge of a hugely positive Convention, at which all of the principles will deliver the exact same message- Barack Obama for President. That will be Hillary's message. That will be Bill's message. It will be the single message of the entire Demcoratic Party, and anyone who is a Democrat knows that to be true. Those who post the divisive stuff are simply on the other side. Period. The end. They might not know it yet, but they are working for McCain, pure and simple.
Two sides of the same destructive coin.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
21. Angela Davis is an intelligent soul.
But she is marginal in the cultural for a reason.

You are endorsing a book title because it gives voice to issues you care about. Perhaps a later age will honor Ms. Davis' contributions, but this one most certainly is not doing so, and I don't see a dramatic change in that trend any time soon.

There is the Melville Effect that could kick in at some point for later generations.

There will be a ton of titles coming out, likely this fall and certainly all of next year, in which the election cycle of 2008 is examined. Any number of angles will be explored.

IMO it is unlikely to directly reflect Davis' concerns except by other authors who are, ironically or not, better at reaching an audience than she is. Cynthia McKinney is running for president this year. I find her repellent on a variety of levels, not least that her "issues" subtract from the Democratic Party's efforts by pretending to lure disaffected purists away from "compromised" candidates like Obama, an assessment I find close to useless.

McKinney's track in electoral politics is reflective of Davis' track in political academia in that they are both anger-fueled visions with extraordinarily limited impact.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Have you read "Women, Race and Class?" If so you would not call it "limited".
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. You seem proud of your predictions but you seem to have
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 06:50 PM by Old Crusoe
difficulty following your own points.

"The Left" is your reference, in your post. A list of those on or in "The Left" in the United States would almost assuredly include, but would not be limited to, Angela Davis, Prof. of Philosophy.

But "The Left" is an amorphous entity, and occurs in fragments in certain places at certain times. Angela Davis is a Communist. She has made a career of challenging what she feels are sexist and racist impositions on human beings in the United States, and spent ample time at Brandeis and in Europe honing her perceptions.

And she is a distinctly limited voice. Ask 1000 academicians whose work broadly impacts on American culture and I doubt if you get enough"Angela Davis" answers for a good poker game.

She is a gifted and dedicated mind occupying a marginal space in American letters. As I indicated, perhaps a later age will revive her stature; I wouldn't look for it in our life times, however, McCamy.

"The Left" as a manipulative entity, as well as "the Right" as a manipulative entity, creates a separate debate from both 1) the value of Davis' life work or this individual work specifically and 2) lays bare the uncomfortable fact that anything that stands still long enough can become a target of criticism, whether you and I affirm it initially or not.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. "calling bullshit on every crackpot story about armies of angry manhaters with unshaven armpits"
This is a prediction, not a preference, If Clinton is the VP, Obama will win. If not, he will lose.

No true progressive or leftist Democrat ever talks like that.



Your hypocrisy and BS propaganda knows no bounds!







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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. ProSense. Good morning.
We agree.

The national political parties, no matter how imperfect thy may be as change-agents, nevertheless are what we have to work with.

Most Democrats don't much care who shaves what nearly so much as they care that Karl Rove is frog-marched out of his comfy office suite some bright fall morning.

And like ost institutions, change usually occurs in the society as the result of the work of scientists and artists, for example, before it reaches a convention floor.

And that said, 2008 gives us a very history moment with an outstanding candidate. The OP's piece doesn't indicate the actual threat of extreme viewpoints undermining that historical fact or draw any sort of substantiated example for why something good is threatened, as opposed to conventions or elections of other years.

Nixon's silent majority, for example, was the "extreme" group in 1972 which saw the defeat of a good man and the re-election of a scoundrel.

Nice to see you around these parts.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Excellent point.
:hi:

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Silent majority was the "extreme group"? No, the Plumbers were the extreme group.
The criminals were extreme. Pat Buchanan and Donald Segretti and Halderman and Colson and all the rest of the CREEPy bunch were the extremists. Are you guys for real?

Man, I am going to have to write some more about this topic I can see, in order to correct your 1972 revisionism.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I'm sorry, but you missed the point.
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 06:53 PM by Old Crusoe
By a country mile, in fact.

Surprised you need hand-holding through this one.

Colson? Hunt? Segretti? et al? Yeah, yeah, they were bad guys, real bad guys, not to be distrusted, nosireebob.

The "silent majority" in large numbers rejected McGovern's candidacy to re-elect Nixon. If you start there as your point, as indicated in my post, you'll be able to connect a few dots.

Segretti helped sink Muskie's campaign in Florida, for example, but there are no stats that suggest Muskie would have won the nomination had Segretti not sabotaged him, and fewer still to suggest Muskie cold have defeated Nixon.

The nation wanted to feel good about Nixon, even in the face of no evidence supporting that claim, and coast to coast, they handed him more power and removed from consideration the ethically superior candidacy of George McGovern.



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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. It was a prediction. I am very good at my political predictions.
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 12:34 PM by McCamy Taylor
I debated whether I should say anything, since I know that there are people like you at DU, however I would have felt that I had let the Democrats down if I did not give my opinion, which is that Obama will probably lose if he does not have Clinton as his VP, and he will win and we will have Dems in both the WH and Congress for eight years and maybe even sixteen if he picks Clinton. That is how important the decision is. Faced with a choice like that, I can tolerate a little bit of ProSense nonsense.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Did you predict Hillary would win the nomination?
Your predict-o-meter needs calibrating.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
27. Geez, things calm down in here and, guaranteed, the shit gets
stirred again. Save the pedantic lectures, they serve no good purpose.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
29. Tip o' the Day: You don't have to be a "wingnut" to believe HRC is bad for the ticket
or understand that it may not be a simple matter of adding this magical "18 million" votes to Obama's, which, to some thinking, is only going to happen if she's put on the ticket.

Same argument, different packaging.

This black Democratic female doesn't need the lecture or the 'wingnut' name-calling. Is this another attempt at unification?
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. But you do have to be a wingnut to believe HRC is attempting a coup
Whether or not she's good for the ticket was the topic of another thread. Do try to keep up.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. That is true. It is the language used----the fear of the masses of women---that is right wing talk.
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 12:43 PM by McCamy Taylor
A true leftist conspiracy theory would have Clinton and a small roomful of VIPs plotting something all by themselves. The people would not be involved. If there were women on the streets involved, they would be spoken of as innocent dupes, with compassion.

Any time you hear millions of oppressed people like women spoken of as the enemy, you know that the conspiracy theory has a right wing origin.

This is something I threw together last night. I may do a more complete exploration of the same topic---an analysis of the origins of the myths of this years Democratic race---and show their right wing origins. It will be very easy to do since I already have journals about how the right wing press framed the oppo against both Clinton and Obama starting in early 2007--and I can show that everything that anti-Clinton Dems at DU and anti-Obama Dems at DU come straight from those right wing talking heads.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Thanks for the condescension, but no thanks
Whether my comments about HRC's fitness are off-topic or not - and policing a thread for topic around here can be like picking gnatshit out of pepper, but thanks! - the bottom line is this is another way to attack and dismiss as 'wingnuts' fellow Democrats who are distrustful of what might go down at the Dem convention. You obviously disagree.

I thought the reference to "35 million votes" was also interesting, if one does the simple arithmetic and factors in the mantra of "18 million votes" for Hillary. But maybe I'm off-topic. I'll do my very very bestest to try and keep up.

:evilgrin:

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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. Lincoln's image, presumably at the Lincoln Memorial, appears in your
collage.

Does he appear as one of those right-wing instigators, or as a left-wing manipulator outright?

There were some real conservaitve folks who didn't -- pardon me here -- cotton to Lincoln and spoke disparagingly of him at every turn.

Lincoln suspended some civil rights, appearing to invoke emergency powers in times of national tension.

Kinda tough to nail the man down on ideology, depending on who is asked, and when.

If Democracy looks like that collage, then Angela Davis AND Phyllis Schlaffly have an equal right to express themselves in the public square. Of the two models, I'd likely prefer Davis, since she strikes me as someone who means what she says, where Schlaffly is functionally illiterate and unchallenged.

I'd dump either one of them, though, to canvas for Bella Abzug, were she with us still.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
47. Who are the left-wing nut cases you are suggesting that we purge?
I'm not finding them in your post.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. That's a lot of writing to say very little.
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