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HOLY CRAP I scooped a REAL bombshell

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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:39 PM
Original message
HOLY CRAP I scooped a REAL bombshell
Americans are dying in a desert - for nothing.

Jobs - they're gone.

Taxes - Mine are too high, many are getting very lucky but I dont earn that much.

Ahhh, never mind, lets keep talking about Vietnam, unit citations, which liars are lying about lying and what lie did they tell to Nixon when they lied before.

Did I mention the main issue this election is a fucking war that ended 30 years ago? WHAT ABOUT THE WAR NOW!!

DU is as off base on this BS as Kerry is and as freepers and the RW is.

The issue is NOT Vietnam.. yet EVERYONE is pretending it is. Our side and their side.

Vietnam

BAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Enough already
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. you got that right
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would argue
its about November first, the war etc etc 2 months from now.

But I do understand your frustration.
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babylon_system Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. So true
Spin control tells the candidates that the country needs a strong warrior leader so they do the best they can to spin their national security credentials. Meanwhile, the stupid war keeps killing more.
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. "..the country needs a strong warrior leader.."
or they could settle for George, who can put on a flight suit, stuff a sock in its crotch and play one on TV. :evilgrin:
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Didn't you get the memo?
Dems love to spend all their time and energy disproving RW lies and avoiding the issues so that they can lose to idiots like GWB in a squeaker and then whine about it for four more years.
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I got that memo in 2000
I was hoping we'd learned something since then.
*sigh*
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Ding! Ding!

*
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. oh, i thought this was gonna be about Laura
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. After all those years with George...
she's probably a dud by now.
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Will Pitt was way off base on this one it won't even make the
news line. Here is the only place it will get any play and not much here either. What a waste of time and energy, I won't be wasting any more of my time waiting for the "big scoop" from him any more.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What a rude, arrogant, mean-spirited thing to say
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 09:15 PM by nu_duer
How did you "waste your time waiting" - ?

wtf does that mean?

Would it not follow that you wasted your time replying to a thread about something that had just wasted your time?

Who the hell knows the significance of this yet anyway? You?



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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
41. You ROCK Mr. Pitt. You KICK ASS
You got CNN to report a story discrediting the liar who has done the most damage to the Kerry momentum so far.

You are one of the most important people in this nation right now, and I congratulate you.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. CNN says you're wrong
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yes. CNN which is working diligently to help Senator Kerry get elected
is giving lots of airtime to the broad question of whether Kerry's war time service was exagerrated.

Those who are paying close attention will find out that the liars are lying.

I question what the undecideds who by definition do not pay close attention to the news will glean from this. My concern is that it is more "noise" about a "cloudy" issue that gets more airtime.

Since I appear to be the only person on this board to feel that way and have been lambasted all night for suggeting such, it would be prudent for me to shut the fuck up and hope I am wrong.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Actually you are wrong
I know everyone on here likes to disparage American Jane and Joe Sixpack, but Jane and Joe Sixpack don't even pay enough attention to KNOW what's going on.

There ARE, however, a LOAD of Americans who are VERY interested in this and have been following it very closely.

I have been debating, in real life, several bush supporters on this issue since the smearies started. I've been reporting their debunked lies every time.

This one is going to be ESPECIALLY sweet to report and they will have to see they have NOTHING LEFT. Their guy O'Neill is a big fat liar.

So yeah, it'll get play PLENTY of other places. ANd it's flying over the internet now.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. yep..
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 09:01 PM by girl gone mad
I found what I thought was pretty sold evidence showing Kerry was stationed near the Cambodian border right around Christmas, only to hear a Kerry spokesperson backtrack on his tesimony a bit and to see the media play up the "did Kerry lie to congress?" meme ad nauseum.

That's when I got religion and realized that right or wrong, we are playing right into their hands by even pursuing this issue.

We could wrest back control so easily. All we have to do is say "who cares?" We learned a long time ago that our soldiers had been fighting in Cambodia. Soldiers are dying in Iraq today, let's talk about the war we're fighting now.
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Amen Sister
Cambodia.

Yeah, thats important to today.

Please.

Rove knows how to play the left and right, thats the only thing I see.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. The little lies they tell day in and day out...
It doesn't matter if a million people prove them wrong, they'll repeat the lie until it gets boring. Then theyll tell another lie, and we'll all waste countless hours trying to prove them wrong again. They have no credibility, but they had none to lose in the first place.

It's death by a thousand cuts, but which side is holding the knife?

We are losing this battle because they are dominating the issues.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well you sure set us straight
the national media is a joke, and you know this. If Kerry doesnt talk about this, do you think the GOP and the media will stop?
You think the media wants to talk about Iraq?
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. William Pitt's Scoop IS Weighty.
The front man in a 30 year campaign to smear John Kerry has finally been caught red-handed lying.

Either John O'Neill is lying now through his teeth...

Or John O'Neill lied to the President of the United States.

Why the hostility to WR Pitt, dude? He's on our side.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. "Why the hostility to WR Pitt, dude?"
Old-fashioned green-eyed envy. We see a lot of it in these parts where Will is concerned.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. Why Vietnam matters -- long and a bit angry
Some of us of Vietnam-war-era age, commonly known as baby-boomers because we were born in the ecstatic post-World War II euphoria, may remember that in 1992, Bill Clinton was the first of our generation to run for President, and one of the accusations flung at him by the GOP was that he was a draft dodger, and a draft dodger couldn't be commander in chief of the US military. This was right after the Gulf War that supposedly had banished the Vietnam syndrome from our national psyche.

Bill Clinton not only won in 1992, but he won over a gen-you-whine war hero, GHW Bush, and his national guard boy hero, Danny Quayle. At that time, Quayle's NG service was touted as legitimate, because after all, he could have been called up at any time and sent to Nam.

When Clinton, as C-in-C, presided over the Blackhawk down episode, his lack of military credentials became an issue, however briefly.

And, when Clinton in 1996 defeated ANOTHER gen-you-whine WW2 hero, Bob Dole, the whole issue continued to fester. Vietnam had never been addressed in the political arena, which is where it NEEDED to be addressed. Fortunately, Bill Clinton presided over an era of mostly peace and prosperity, and what little he did militarily was either overshadowed by sex scandal or dismissed as wag-the-dog.

In 2000, however, we had our first presidential race pitting two Vietnam era "vets" against each other. Lacking a wartime context, the 2000 race didn't focus on military issues. Gore was no "hero," and neither was Bush, and there wasn't a war on the horizon. The Balkans were quiet, the cold war was over. There were no enemies in sight. And remember that the right wing ideology NEEDS enemies. They can't exist without them. Without a declared enemy, the military backgrounds of Gore and Bush remained largely unexplored.

But after September 11, and after the start of offensive operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, the issue of chickenhawks re-emerged. The generation that had fought and bled and died in Vietnam was now seeing its children sacrificed in a way they thought they'd never see again: sent to battle by sanctimonious blowhards who had themselves never seen war. The generation that in many cases hadn't even been able to vote during Vietnam was now coming of political age. The issue of military service in Vietnam is immensely relevant to the current political scene.

And I personally think no one understands that better than John Kerry. Unlike John O'Neill, Kerry learned the lesson that his country, the country he had volunteered to risk his life for, had lied to him and put him in a horrible situation for no good reason. Kerry understood, in a way neither O'Neill nor Bush were or are able to do, that serving one's country honorably is not the same as honoring that country's leaders with blind obedience. Kerry learned that serving one's country honorably may mean pulling aside the curtain to reveal its flaws -- the atrocities of a hundred hamlets in Vietnam or the atrocities of a prison in Baghdad.

Bush never learned the lessons, never experienced the horrors that shaped the Vietnam generation. He never knew the self-doubts, the self-hatreds, the fears, the grief. He lied about being in the Air Force and he lied about being in war -- and for many in our generation, even those of us who did not serve, that is a grave dishonor to the hundreds of thousands who did serve and the 58,000 who died.

The Civil War ended officially in 1865, but we all know from the voter purges in Florida that the plantation, segregation, racist sentiment has never died in some parts of the old south. I'm not going to get into a flame war over the confederate flag over this, but in many ways the lingering, festering wounds of the Civil War last so long because the victors -- the North -- were unable and/or unwilling to address the underlying issues. Much the same, IMHO, is true of Vietnam. Like the Civil War, Vietnam divided this country and without the catharsis of a full accounting, we cannot heal.

I think many on DU have read the few accounts by the wives, widows, children of Vietnam vets who were never able to speak of their experiences. Vietnam was a living nightmare to many, some who were there, some who weren't. We've read of the returning vets from Iraq who snap and kill their families and/or themselves. The same thing happened with Vietnam. We've read of the brutality in Iraq, and we know from Sy Hersh and the Toledo Blade and the Winter Soldiers that there was brutality in Vietnam.

In that sense, it's deja vu all over again, and we can't break the cycle until we face the horror that has been pushed into the farthest reaches of memory, until we accept the wrongs that were done by well-intentioned people, until we accept -- as the right wing is totally unable to do -- that the United States of America is an agglomeration of essentially fallible people, who sometimes make really horrible mistakes and then try to justify them, deny them, ignore them, forget them.

As a government, the U.S. never addressed the issues of Vietnam. The vets came home, many of them damaged in mind as well as body, and they were forgotten. No one wanted to hear their stories of shooting old men and children, of bayoneting pregnant women, of burning whole villages to the ground for no reason other than anger and frustration. "The enemy" did things like that, not Americans. We were the saviours of Europe and the Pacific, liberators, heroes. We weren't barbarians.

But Vietnam wasn't a war like any other we had fought, and the men (and women) who came home weren't always treated as heroes the way their fathers and grandfathers had been. So that's why the Swift Boat Vets' lies are bringing back the horrors to the minds of men who have tried for 35 or 40 years to forget. That's why the lies about John Kerry are so important to be exposed. John Kerry had his epiphany in Vietnam, but he at least he had it from experience. He's not a flip-flopper -- he's a man who has the self-presence and self-confidence to admit he has made or is involved in a mistake and then to go forward and try to correct it.

O'Neill and Bush never learned that. Neither did Cheney or Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz or Perle or Ashcroft or any of the rest of the evil GOP termites, gnawing at the framework of our noble experiment. And because the presidential race is between these two elements of the Vietnam experience -- the one who learned from experience and the one who believed what he wanted to believe without risk -- as a nation we have to revisit this and resolve it, or at least try to.

Because in the end, Vietnam is Iraq. If we don't as a nation and as a government learn the lessons of Vietnam once and for all, we will make the same damn mistakes in Iraq, and Iran, and North Korea, and Syria, and we will end up, as someone said, like 19th cnetury Paraguay, who waged war on all her neighbors until 90% of the male population was killed.

The men who are waging the war in Iraq right now are the same ones who avoided the war in Vietnam, not for the reasons Bill Clinton did because he thought the war was wrong. They avoided it because they had other priorities. They thought they were too good to fight. They thought they were entitled to the sacrifice of others. Now it is their peers who have come to challenge them. While it may be difficult for younger voters to understand why this ancient history is being dredged up, it is also important that they understand how history, even recent history, has shaped the world we have today.

Vietnam was never over. There was no victory, there was no surrender, there was no reconciliation. There was only pain and death and despair and anger and frustration and hatred and confusion and disillusionment. Maybe, just maybe, some of that will be resolved in the near future.

For the sake of our Vietnam war generation and for the Iraq war generation, I sure as fucking hell hope so.

Tansy Gold
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. My short answer is that 9/11 changed everything
but thank you for the eloquence.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. 9/11 did change everything, NYfM
But not just in the way -- again, just MHO -- it appeared on the surface.

In a sense, 9/11 was a result of our collective failure to address the American debacle in Vietnam, and especially of the chickenhawks' failure to address it. They hadn't fought it, they didn't have the physical and emotional scars. Fighting another was easy for them.

So my hope -- and I suspect perhaps it is John Kerry's hope, too -- is that this examination will result in at least some resolution of some of the lingering pain, allowing for true healing and true growth.

But we shall see, we shall see.


Tansy
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. It is a PATTERN we fight, not just the particulars
Beautiful and weighty post, T_G!

When we don't recognize the patterns of history, we doom ourselves to go another round.

Consider missed opportunities to help a post-colonial country, rather choosing to prop up a corrupt regime for proxy wars. (Ho v Diem in Nam- supporting Hussein in Iraq- arming fundie muhjedin in Afghan, etc)

Profiteering political backers involved (Brown and Root/Dow/Boeing/etc with LBJ and -hey!- Brown and root/KBR/Halliburton/Bechtel with Cheney, Rummy, et al

I could go on and too often do, but hope I have been coherent on this point.
Gulf of tonkin, er, 9/11 didn't really change that much at all. Just a trigger.
A starting gun if you will. Off to the Races, it's PNAC in the lead.
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skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Wow
If I could write like that, I would consider myself eternally blessed. Awesome post.

:toast:
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Gotta Admit
While it was a little wordy, very good post.

Damnit! I'm motivated now. Lets talk about Vietnam!

Kiss me goodbye and write me while i'm gone.. good bye my sweatheart hello Vietnam.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. (blushing)
Thanks, Skygazer.

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. if a reply could qualify as
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 10:40 PM by dweller
a homepage nominee, your's would be it.

thank you for putting into words, lengthy, weighty and thoughtfully true what i have been feeling for a time now.

Peace,
dp
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. And peace to you, too, dweller
It was all spontaneous, direct from gut to fingertips, though I had been thinking about the whole issue for a day or two.

I wrote it in one big rush, then posted before I even proofread. If I'd read back over it, I probably would have aborted.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. That's one of the most moving pieces on Vietnam I have ever read
I am 33 years old and only have one memory of Vietnam--the TV footage of the helicopter taking off from the embassy. I remember adults arguing passionately and angrily about some country I didn't know about.

And just the other morning, I complained to my husband that I wish the whole Vietnam thing "would just go away."

But I understand what you are saying, completely. Thank you for writing that. You are of my father's generation, and my father-in-law served three tours of duty with the Army and came home with five medals and as a different person each time, according to my mother-in-law.

Thank you for your service. Your words made me cry.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Thanks, Moonbeam, but I didn't serve.
My husband is a Vietnam era vet, but he was in Europe, not SE Asia. My brother-in-law, however, spent 14 months at DaNang.

I'm just a humble scribbler with memories of people and a time when things were never quite what they seemed to be or what we expected them to be. A lot of us wanted answers then, and when we didn't get them, we just kept waiting. And waiting. And waiting.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. My husband served
active duty Army from 1985 to 1997. Desert Storm was his war. Short.

Oh he was also "lucky" enough to get in on some of the Reagan action in his earlier years in the Army.
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. a reverent bow to you
brilliant post, ms gold. i see willpitt has started a thread to get this on the home page. i nominated it, and i am sure others have as well.

you are right, viet nam matters. it is a matter of character now.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
40. Best post I've seen here in a long time
What a gaping wound this has opened in the psyche of America. We who remember have come out in force in this season of dissent.

I love your post. I'm sending it to my kids.

Thanks.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Hey you deserve a front page editoral on DU
Really moving. Really to the point. Thanks.

"Kerry understood, in a way neither O'Neill nor Bush were or are able to do, that serving one's country honorably is not the same as honoring that country's leaders with blind obedience."
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. We'll talk about whatever we need to talk about
to get Bush out, Kerry in, and end this sorry, sorry chapter of U.S. history.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
35. kick
:kick:

please read upthread 'Why VietNam Matters'.

dp
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. The issue is Republican smear campaigns
And Kerry exposed their tactics, once and for all. Nobody will EVER forget this, makes winning other elections a whole lot easier.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Ann Richards..
exposed Bush's tactics. I remember, I worked on her campaign. Bush managed to set the agenda then, too, and exposing their sleazy methods and outright lies was not enough to salvage a victory.

I believe that they expected we would ferret out all of the inaccuracies of the swiftvets. They threw this group together quickly and on the cheap. Bush wins by virtue of the fact that all people in the media are talking about is whether Kerry served honorably or not, whether he committed atrocities and whether was right to protest. Kerry is on the hotseat. Bush is willing to accept a few cuts as long as he's the one holding the knife.

It's time for us to go on the offensive. They are counting on us to drag the Swiftboat story out with our debunking efforts. I think we would be better off changing the subject instead.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Nationally
It's exposed nationally now. It wasn't when Bush beat Ann Richards. that's the difference. They've went to the well one too many times.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
38. The issue is campaign ethics
and the GOP have dragged us into the political gutter since the 1990s.
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