After awhile ,Ralph, it's either mental sickness or money.........

[ItsMyParty]

Look, I can 100% support the efforts of some scrappy son-of-a-bitch who knows he can't win but will make such a significant dent in the votes that he starts scaring the hell out of the major parties and the status quo with the possiblity that there will soon be a third party to contend with.

But I look to even Dennis K who stayed in to the end to make a point and then bowed out and supported Kerry. When it gets to where Ralph is today we are either talking 1) a slimy bastard who has learned how to manipulate a handful of people to line his pockets, or 2) a mentally ill person who in other circumstances would be committed for evaluation, or 3) both. Let me make something clear.

Thank God for the fighters. Thank God that through them change has happened. But there is a distinct difference between fights that grow and grow and become stronger and this crusade of Nader's that is dead on arrival. There may be a day, Ralph and Dennis K, when people will arise. But it is not now. That type of arousal in this era will not come from people who get totally broken by the Bush regime. They will simply adapt. It comes from those who are hurting, are being wiped out, are still operating under a democracy, but who can bitch to their Democratic Party and bring about reforms or rise up. Don't you understand, Ralph--we offer them the fertile ground for uprising; the republicans will wipe out any chance of them ever rising up.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ItsMyParty]

2. yep, sure and it takes a shitload of republican money to make sure

that us losers stay to the left of the road, correct?? Got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you...........

[babylon_system]

3. Republicans make strategic decisions to sabotage the Dems

But Nader supporters are not Republcans. There is genuine leftist dissatisfaction with the status quo and Nader addresses this dissatisfaction. Kerry made the choice to pander to pro-war moderates rather than to carry the banner of the anti-war left represented in the party by Dean. Kerry made a strategic decision to veer right on the war issue assuming that anti-war voters would have to vote for him anyway. Nader keeps the anti-war movement alive and hopefully the Democratic Party will come around to support peace and justice once again.

[Cheswick2.0]

8. that thinking is insane

It's not working and if Nader had enough supporters he would need all the help from the republicans.

[blondeatlast]

9. But Nader supporters are shooting themselves in the foot.

If they are pissed, let them put him in Congress (an excellent idea, actually).

This is the wrong damn time, the wrong damn time.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. how can he maintain a voice on the left when he is the Other Republican

candidate? After 2000 are we more left now? Is the country more liberal now that AL Gore got taught a lesson?

[maine_raptor]

7. I Love It Cheswick Nader, the Other Republican Candidate LOL

Nader, the Pork of Choice

:bounce:

[blondeatlast]

6. ANader-enabled Bush win will undo all the excellent legislation

Ralph Nader has pushed through all these years. They've already destroyed tons of environmental and worker rights legislation.

And I find it contemptible that he has accepted money from Repug operatives.

Ralph has become an embarassment to the left.

[babylon_system]

12. Maybe I missed something. Did Nader take Repug money? n/t

[blondeatlast]

16. Yes, my friend, he has taken big bucks from well-known

conservative funding sources.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0819-13.htm

[babylon_system]

20. Apparently, Democrats have taken even MORE than Nader from these groups

Many political donors give money to multiple candidates. I don't take this as an indictment of Nader.

"As a group, the 51 donors have given $54,300 to Nader and just over $415,000 to Republican candidates, parties and leadership PACs. They have contributed nearly $66,000 to Democrats. All but six of those donors have contributed more to Republicans than to Democrats during the current election cycle.

Nader’s fundraising total from donors who have contributed to Republicans represents only about 4 percent of the $1.5 million he has raised overall. Still, that’s enough to infuriate Democrats who blame Nader for siphoning votes from Al Gore in 2000 and handing the election to George Bush. Nader took 2.7 percent of the popular vote four years ago."

[blondeatlast]

10. BULLSHIT.

With Nader-enabled Bush in power, there is no exit from Iraq. As long as there's oil to be had, we'll be there. The ONLY hope for ending the invasion is to elect Kerry.

I was a Kucinich supporter, but I'm smart enough to know that Bush has no incentive to get us out. Our only hope for peace is to elect John Kerry.

You may be smart, you may use big words, but pragmatism wins me over every time.

Nader is a tool of the Repugs. Can you live with that? I can't.

Sorry fella.

[babylon_system]

13. Did Kerry promise to withdraw from Iraq?

Nope!
I will vote my conscience.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/kerr-j17.shtml
Kerry’s statements are only the most glaring demonstration of a remarkable and instructive political fact. Although the majority of the American people now regard the US invasion of Iraq as a mistake, and well over 40 percent believe that US troops should be withdrawn immediately, the official two-party system has conspired to produce a presidential election campaign in which there is no outlet for antiwar public opinion.

[blondeatlast]

15. Fine, but when your guy's legislation is summarily overturned,

don't look for sympathy at DU.

If Bunnypants is re-elected, you'll be one of THEM.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. BTW I am voting my conscience too

Mine tells me it is immoral to re-elect bush to punish the democrats.

[babylon_system]

21. What does your conscience tell you about war?

That Kerry will prosecute the (REPUBLICAN) War on Terrorism better than the Republicans, as he promises? He will kill only the Iraqis who deserve to be killed?

[Cheswick2.0]

18. You expect promises from someone who needs to get

more than 2 percent of the vote to be sucessful? Promises are for fringe fools who can promise you the moon because they never have to deliver.

[babylon_system]

22. I see, pro-war is pragmatic realism so just bend over and say "AHHHH"

No thanks!

[blondeatlast]

24. We'll ALL be bending over if Ralphie enables a bushit re-election.

See you in Gitmo, fella.

Hope we don't share a cell-block.

[babylon_system]

25. Does Kerry plan on dismantling Gitmo?

Didn't think so..............

[LisaL]

27. Will Nader do it?

No, because he has no chance of getting elected?
So, what will happen if Bush is re-elected?
:eyes:

[liberalmike27]

36. What is Interesting

Is that Ralph was up until the Carter administration in the political debate. Just about that time, unions were beginning to fail, and the conservative wave was starting. Carter was a pretty right-wing president, though he had some leftist leanings.

About that time, Ralph starting being shut-out by government. It isn't a coincidence that Democrats corporate contributions were increasing all through that time, and union contributions to the democrats were diminishing as each union failed. This trend of increasing corporate money and control over democrats continued through the next few decades, until now.

Beginning with the Carter administration, and corresponding to the increase in corporate control over the democratic party, and already having control of the republicans since corporatism is more normal there anyway, Ralph Nader began losing influence. The corporate world had suffered greatly from Nader's initiatives, which had made our world, its products and services, and life in general safer for real people. At the same time, this did of course hurt corporations. Getting the picture? Corporations take control of Democrats, and consumer advocate and all he tries for, gets shut out.

I'm sure he was the first to realize how badly the democratic party was being taken over by corporate strings, and many of us are coming around, at least those who do some minimal reading on the subject. Neither of the major parties serve the people. Ralph is the only one who would. I don't think many people realize how lost we are, and how great this man is. Who has facilitated all of the demonization of Nader? No surprise, the corporate media, aided by corporatist democrats.

We desperately need Instant Runoff Voting, where people can vote their preferences. I think if that were to happen, you'd find Nader, or a similar type of politician, and the Republcans in the instant runoff, as the Democrats have lost their soul to corporations. Look at who passed welfare "reform," GATT, and NAFTA, all of which have turned out to be horrible for human workers in our country, as well as the third countries who are gaining the jobs, who have no minimum salaries or pollution controls. We are truly screwed, and all of this hatred of such a great guy is terribly misplaced.

[greenbriar]

4. NADER just loves to have everyone pander to him

I wish he would just bow out

[ItsMyParty]

11. Actually, and I'm not being sinster here in my own thread, I like the idea

voiced above of Nader running for Senate or House of Representative (or, even a Governor position)---hey, that's where the other guys had to work their way up from (either that or military). He could really begin a grassroots movement of substance. You don't develop substance by just being some loudmouth on the national scene. Not only get in and work at these other levels but when you establish yourself there, bring others up with you. Think what might have been if Nader had started there and built and built over these years JUST LIKE THE GODDAMN RIGHT WINGERS--that's how they began and that's how they took over the government. Ralph could have really produced a viable third party; but he was too involved with himself to put in the real grassroots effort. (again, was it the money issue that he didn't bother??)

[blondeatlast]

14. Nader supporters fail to realize that enabling the Republicans

means the end of Ralph's excellent works till now.

Environmental, consumer, safety and health--Bunnypants and friends want nothing more than to kill it all. They already have, and they will keep doing it.

Nader's supporters are the worst thing Nader has going for him. they can't see the forest for the trees.

I've been on DU for two years, don't want to get banned now, so I won't say what I think of them.

[babylon_system]

23. Yes, idealistic Nader supporters are the reason why Democrats fail

Nader is a Republican plot to siphon "Democratic" votes from Democratic candidates. Those votes belong to the Party! Who do those Nader loving liberals think they are voting for someone other than the Party candidate! Geeeesh, they must think this is a democracy or something!

[LisaL]

28. I don't know what they think

But they might just as well vote for Bush.
We live in a real word, don't we?
Are they happy now that Bush is destroying the environment?

[quaoar]

31. Nader was on McEnroe's show on CNBC last night

McEnroe told him that he had never voted until 2000 and that he voted for Nader. This put a smile on Ralph's face until McEnroe said, "But..." and then explained that things are different now.

Nader then held up his book to make sure he got a plug in. It was kind of sad and pathetic. He should be an elder statesman of the Democratic Party. Instead, he's Don Quixote.

[blondeatlast]

32. Don Quixote with slime on his hands.

It is kinda pathetic. I used to have so much respect for him, but he's lost someting somewhere and just become sad, and unfortunately, sleazy.

[babylon_system]

33. Nader is true to his progressive convictions

Nader hasn't lost anything by sticking to his values. So-called Democrats have lost their progressive credentials by supporting pro-war candidates. They might as well be Republicans, like Lieberman.

[blondeatlast]

34. He's still taking money from big-money politicos.

He's a sick, sad, slimeball who doesn't care (or maybe wants) the country to go to the toilet in a Bush re-election.

And his supporters are the bush-enablers.

Edit: if he hadn't siphoned votes off of Gore in 2000 (thank God I wised up and voted D), we wouldn't be in Iraq.

You can talk all you want, but I know that Bunnypants had his agenda set when he ran. Bush got us into Iraq, and Nader's candidacy may help keep us there.

That is all. I'm through with you; we aren't gonna change either one's minds.

[babylon_system]

35. Nader doesn't owe the Democratic Party the time of day

and neither do his supporters. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just stating what I believe to be true.

Nader voters do not owe their votes to Democratic candidates. No one owns those votes. People are free to vote for the candidate of their choice. People who are bitter about Gore's inability to prevent Bush from stealing the 2000 election can blame Gore, the Democratic party, GW Bush, Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, the Supreme Court and the Republican party machine. Nader is not culpable at all. It is simple-minded in the extreme to believe that anyone who doesn't vote for a Democratic candidate is, in effect, voting for a Republican.

It is really sad and pathetic that Democrats believe their candidate can't win without stealing progressive votes from Nader. Maybe next time, the Democrats will adopt more progressive policies to attract progressive voters, or maybe they can join the Republican party since that's where their policies are heading in any case.

[quaoar]

38. Nader reminds me of the fundamentalists

The fundamentalists pursue a Middle East policy with the ultimate goal of bringing about Armageddon and the Second Coming. That's why they support Israel so strongly -- they feel it is necessary to fulfill prophecy.

Nader would like to see Bush re-elected so things will get so bad in this country that people will make a sharp turn to the left, like during the Great Depression.

[babylon_system]

39. You might be right

Nader is so committed to progressive ideals that he can't stand to sell out to pragmatic "moderate" Democrats who very much resemble Republicans, especially on economic and foreign policy issues.

Was Nader ever courted by the Democrats (since the 1970's)? Was he invited to join the Clinton White House? or the Democratic Party? Were any planks from his platform adopted by the Democrats in order to reel in his supporters?

No, Democrats just assume that progressive votes should go to them by default. They should have learned otherwise in 2000 but they are so triangulated to attract moderate, centrist cross-over Republican voters that they have forsaken the progressive left. Maybe they deserve to lose those votes if they refuse to earn them.

[chaumont58]

41. Politics is the art of the possible

If the left vote is split, it is just possible that the result will be something like chimpie. And that is just what happened in 2000. All the newly minted gold star mothers can thank ole Darth for enabling chimpie to launch an adventure that got the mothers their gold stars.

[babylon_system]

42. Blame Lieberman for the Iraq war, not Nader. Lieberman still supports war

Nader has always been anti-war. If anyone, aside from the obvious Bushistas, is to blame for the deaths in Iraq on both sides, it is the Democrats who literally voted for war and enabled Bush to carry out the PNAC agenda.

Nader has a right to run and speak his mind. It is sickening that Democrats want to censor and suppress him because they demand loyalty from all progressive voters as if they are entitled to those votes! Those votes are not owned by anybody but the voter. Democrats should not take them for granted. Many Nader voters would rather not vote at all than to vote for Vichy Democrats like Lieberman.

If Gore wanted Naders voters he should have appealed to them with progressive policies. Instead, he wanted made a play for the right-wing Florida voters by putting Lieberman on his ticket. Unfortunately for him, they couldn't read their ballots and so they gave Jeb Bush an opportunity to trash a few thousand critical votes that were actually intended for Gore. Naders votes were never intended for Gore. I don't know where Democrats get off thinking that they own Nader voters.

But go ahead and blame Nader if it makes you feel better but it won't help Kerry to take Nader voters for granted again.

[DeepModem Mom]

26. From LBN, another Nader outrage: hired conservo firm to help get sigs

Nader hired conservative firm to help him gather ballot signatures

SAM HANANEL, Associated Press Writer

08-24) 15:28 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

Democrats criticized Ralph Nader on Tuesday for getting help from Republicans to gain access to state ballots in his independent presidential campaign.

Last month, Nader's campaign paid $75,000 to a well-known conservative political consulting firm that specializes in gathering signatures for ballot petitions.

California-based Arno Political Consultants has helped a long list of Republican clients, including the presidential campaigns of Ronald Reagan, former Sen. Bob Dole and the first President Bush. Its clients also include corporations and groups of the type Nader has battled in the past, including the Tobacco Institute, the National Rifle Association and the California Timber Association.

"Nader isn't reaching out to progressives to help identify possible Nader voters, he's reaching out to a company with expertise in finding Republicans and conservatives," said Democratic National Committee spokesman Jano Cabrera. "Republicans are interested in getting him on the ballot."...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/08/24/politics1828EDT0702.DTL

[LisaL]

29. Nader can't possibly care about any of the issues

He is supposed to care about, IMO.
If he did, he would work with Democrats.
But he is working against democrats and with republicans.

[blondeatlast]

30. That's it; the man's as slimy as Cheney.

He's lost all his LW street cred now.

This is the man who says there is no difference in the parties?

Serves him well, doesn't it?

I once had the utmost respect for Mr. Nader, damn near went Green in 2000, but he's turned into what he would despise if he could see through his massive, distorted ego.

Mr. Wonderful, if you wanna vote for him, knock yourself out. I hope you are in a state where he made the ballot--I couldn't vote for him if I wanted, which I definitely don't.

Don't expect allies here on DU, it's pretty abundantly clear what the membership and the Administration thinks of your slimy greaseball candidate.

There's this other site that might welcome you, though, it just can't be named on DU.

[Chili]

37. Nader's motive...

...at this point is neither money, power, nor due to mental illness. It's petty revenge. He's furious with the Democratic party because they didn't embrace him and endorse him and let him play in their sandbox, which would've been to their political detriment. Observe his request to appear at the DEMOCRATIC convention??? What was that, the Democrats' last chance to kiss his butt in order to avoid him exacting his revenge in November? So Ralphie took his pail and toy shovel and his boo-boo lip home and is now determined to "show them" by kicking sand in their faces. He's gonna show them how much power he still has. I'll show you! I'll make them pay, by God!

And he's using Republican philosophy to do it: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I too once had great respect for this once great man. It is sad to see him become a petty vindictive attention-grabbing power-broker. He could be working behind the scenes. He could've even blackmailed Kerry and the Democrats - he could've made platform demands in exchange for his support. It wouldn't have been pretty, but at least it would've proven his sincerity. This... is pure ugly revenge.

[babylon_system]

40. That's called politics

You earn progressive votes by adopting a progressive platform. If adopting progressive policies "would've been to their political detriment" then Democrats do not deserve progressive votes.