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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:19 PM
Original message
A Pollish Joke
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 08:57 PM by NanceGreggs
"Three pollsters walk into a bar and …"

You can add your own punchline, but if you want it to be funny and based in fact, it’s going to end with all three of them, having surveyed the crowd, coming up with totally different results.

When it comes to the current polls on the respective positions of Obama v McCain, I fully appreciate what it is the pollsters are selling – and sorry, I just ain’t buying.

My wariness stems from the obvious: too many polls that say too many different things. And I am especially suspect of anything that’s being sold via MSM infomercials (aka “the news”), which have a distinct tendency to flog “products” that alternately suck and/or blow.

Telephone polls have always been flawed. But in view of today’s technology, they are now fatally flawed. Whole swaths of the population are, by necessity, left out of the equation: e.g. cell-phone users and those who don’t respond to calls when unfamiliar numbers pop up on their caller ID screen.

In addition, when one looks at the number of participants in a particular survey, weighed against the number of voters in this country, it would seem obvious that seven Hispanics, a dozen Catholics, and two retirees might not be a substantial enough sampling by which to declare how all Hispanics, Catholics and retirees are intending to vote.

And yet the pollsters try to convince us that because one of the two Ph.D.s who wound up in their survey was still ‘iffy’ about voting for Obama, this can be extrapolated into a declaration that only fifty percent of the well-educated are behind Barack.

And so it goes, a never-ending “interpretation” of data collected through highly questionable methodologies, ultimately run through the spin cycle of the media and presented to the voters as fact.

And I ain’t buyin’.

When you include that infamous margin of error, the polls have been telling me for weeks that Obama and McCain are virtually neck-and-neck – an assault on my common sense and ability to reason, which invariably leads to a combination of frustration and belly-laughs, to wit:

Obama continues to attract record audiences, while attendees at McCain’s events (if you don’t count his security people) number in the dozens … and yet, they’re neck-and-neck.

Obama’s scheduled appearances result in blocks-long line-ups, often the night before the event, while the announcement of a McCain appearance causes the yawn-o-meter to go into the red … and yet, they’re neck-and-neck.

Obama acknowledges the justified anger of the populace due to high gas prices and rampant unemployment, while McCain calls the populace a bunch of whiners, who have merely “imagined” their own non-existent problems … and yet, they’re neck-and-neck.

Obama outlines specific plans to deal with the energy crisis, the faltering economy, the outsourcing of US jobs and the need for affordable healthcare, while the only thing McCain has been specific about is how incredibly popular Obama is in comparison to himself … and yet, they’re neck-and-neck.

In the last four years, the Democrats have gained party registrants, while the GOP have lost voters previously identifying themselves as Republicans … and yet, the Democrat and the Republican candidates are neck-and-neck.

Registration of new voters identifying themselves as Democrats far outweigh new Republican-affiliated voters - in some states in a seven-to-one ratio … and yet, the Democrat and the Republican candidates are neck-and-neck.

This is just a small smattering of why I don’t take the “polls” seriously.

But don’t take my word for it. Ask yourself the following “poll” questions:

When was the last time you heard an anecdotal story about a life-long Democrat switching their party registration so they can vote for McCain this November?

When was the last time you perused a Freeper site and saw overwhelming support cited for McCain?

When was the last time a friend or relative told you they have always voted Dem, but this time they can’t resist voting for that charismatic Republican who can’t remember what he said an hour ago, no less what he voted for/against in a single instance of his senatorial career?

I know it’s easy to blame current poll results on all of those stupid people we hear about – the ones who don’t pay attention, the ones who don’t care about politics, the ones who don’t even know who the candidates are, but invariably wind up in a survey allegedly consisting of likely voters.

But then the question arises: How do the pollsters keep randomly finding so many stupid people? According to “the polls”, isn’t that a statistical improbability?

My advice is to keep your eyes and your ears open, and assess what it is you actually see and hear. Don’t let the pollsters sell you their snake-oil; their numbers are just as reliable as the “facts” you get from your local friendly news media.

And by the way, when you’re telling that pollish joke, don’t forget the part about how the three pollsters who walked into the bar didn’t pay any attention to who was paying their tabs.

Just my opinion – but I’m stickin’ to it.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually, Stupid People are easy to find.
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 08:28 PM by TomInTib
Just check out the Nielsen and Arbitron ratings.

on edit:

I would like to add the Billboard Top 100 (although my tastes in music pretty much suck, too).
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Local teevee newser reported primary results and said the numbers were within the "margin of error"
One candidate garnered 53% of the vote. The other guy got 47%.

Margin of error in election results? We had it here in Michigan yesterday.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. My dear Nance!
I love it!

Way to go, girl!

K&R

:patriot:
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kicked and Recommended /Well reasoned and funny ! And sad.
I worry that the continued "closeness" in the polls is a setup for an attempted November election theft.
We're being prepared, all evidence to the contrary disregarded, that it could go either way, no?

I do what you say to do: I keep my eyes and ears open.
My eyes see tons of Obama signs (in NC) and one or two McCain signs. Same with Bumperstickers.
And I hear people talking about voting for Obama who I know voted for Bush twice.

So I am (prayerfully) grateful.



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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hi Nance.
Yet again another great piece of writing.
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is your best column today, Nance...

Seriously, they're all pretty great!

K & R! Again.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. The pollsters have a fairly good record in recent years
Consider the 2006 Senate races. According to the polls just before the election, there were some races where one candidate had a clear margin and a handful that were close. When the results were in, all the "clear win" candidates had won and all the "close" races were close. We took the Senate because all the close races except Tennessee fell our way.

Even back in 2006, some people screened their calls. Some people had cell phones. Experienced pollsters can compensate for these problems, at least to some extent.

The main thing to remember about the presidential polls at this point is that so many people aren't really paying much attention to the race yet. Past presidential campaigns have seen significant fluctuations in the polls in the last couple weeks before Election Day. To a politics junkie, it may be inconceivable that, after a typically interminable modern campaign, people don't know all they need to know by Labor Day. The fact is, though, that many voters make up their minds or even change their minds pretty late in the game. The final pre-election polls have tended to be at least roughly accurate.

My guess is that Obama's current slim lead in the polls is a roughly accurate reflection of the current division of opinion, but that he will be doing better by the time the last poll is released.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Uh, Jim. I believe you sort of missed the point of the OP.
You won't find many on DU who don't believe Obama hasn't got a solid 15% lead over McCain, in spite of the MSM.

1) It is in the pollster's and MSM's mutual interest to keep this horse race going. More readers, viewers and listeners mean more $$$ for both businesses.

2) It is of vital interest to the GOP that voters believe the election will be close. Without the fiction of a tight race, election fraud is impossible to hide, no matter how many different tactics are used (and it's quite a list).

That's my short version, but you can search all of DU for lots more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions....
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. In addition to what DCKit said above ...
... here's a very big problem.

A friend of mine had a media consulting company, that consulted to radio stations interested in upping audience share by changing their format, etc. John's company relied on telephone surveys to gather info, and he explained to me that the biggest problem in the field was the fact that certain types of people participate in surveys and polls, while certain types never do so. And that means, as he explained, there is a whole segment of the population whom pollsters know absolutely nothing about - from their income bracket, to their music preferences, to their political views. THAT was over thirty years ago.

Now we have today's situation, where we not only have a large portion of the population who WON'T participate in polls, but also those who CAN'T because they use cell-phones, or screen their calls and dismiss unknown numbers.

You've stated that "Experienced pollsters can compensate for these problems, at least to some extent," and therein lies the problem. How do you 'compensate'? How do you base assumptions on a complete lack of data?

In addition, as I mentioned in my OP, poll participants are invariably a tiny fraction of the voting public. If your poll randomly chooses TWO Hispanics, and one of them says he doesn't have a driver's license, does that mean 50% of all Hispanics don't drive?

And there's also that pesky problem of polling organizations having political biases of their own, which are going to result in a spinning of the data - in the same way corporate-owned news outlets spin the "facts" of a news story.

All this to say that polling is a flawed non-science, and extremely open to manipulation - which is why I choose to look at the facts on the ground, not the numbers being touted as facts.

If a neighbourhood is full of Obama lawn-signs, Obama bumperstickers, and Obama-T-shirt wearing citizens, all the polls in the world aren't going to convince me that that neighbourhood is "McCain Country".

It's a simplistic approach - but it's much more grounded in reality than some of the polls I've been seeing of late.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. For some, the "wiggle room" is what is all-important,
and man, have they milked that for the last eight years.

I.e., "who knew Bush could draw so many new voters in 2004?".

Granted, those "new voters" came out of somewhere that was not male or female, not urban or rural, not approving nor disapproving of the president.

Some things are a mystery: that's the line they depend on to steal the point or two to beat the spread.

K&R.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Exactly. It isn't the science that's bad, it's the politics behind it.
Exit polling is perhaps one of the most important sciences that is being systematically discredited.

Even though Voter News Service called Florida correctly in 2000, they were replace by Edison/Mitofsky who said that they would not repeat the mistakes made by VNS in calling the 2000 race for Gore. Except that we all know that it was CORRECT for VNS to make that call the way they did because there were over 50,000 spoiled ballots in Duvall and Palm Beach Counties. That was cleary indicated by BOTH the exit polling (which was accurate) and by the recount and ensuing court battles.

I'm all for the scientific aspects of polling, that isn' the real issue. We have the technology. I have a real problem with the way they being bought and sold on the open market, liars for hire is what we have been reduced to.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. VNS was a consortium,
if I recall correctly, underwritten in part by all the major media outlets, at least the TV networks.

Edison/Mitofsky was a privately held interest. Warren Mitofsky could verify that, if he were still with us.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. "Liars for Hire"
That's it in a nutshell - and they'll dazzle you six ways to Sunday with the statistics that prove how they're telling the truth.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Reply to DCKit and Nance Greggs
My thanks to both of you for your thoughtful responses. I'm no big expert on polls so my response is based partly on impressions I've formed without being 100% sure of them. I should've gone to bed hours ago, though, so I'll have to content myself with this.

DCKit emphasizes the charge that the pollsters have an incentive to cheat in McCain's favor, so as to keep selling poll results. My guess is that the media outlets buying poll results or commissioning polls or whatever will keep doing so regardless of whether the race is close. You think that, if Obama showed a 15% lead in August, the media would decide to stop reporting poll numbers? Of course not. The MSM vastly prefer reporting poll numbers and other "horse-race" aspects, as opposed to analyzing the substance of public issues. A pollster would best help its business by building a reputation for accuracy, not by trying to hype a close race.

I agree with DCKit that election fraud is a huge concern. There are many legitimate arguments to be made on that score, about EVM companies and Republican officials. To go further and say that all the major polling firms are also in on the conspiracy (with the assigned role of deliberately lying about pre-election poll results, on a large scale) is a little too TFH for me, though.

Assuming for the sake of the argument that the pollsters are sincerely trying to get it right, they still have two problems: They're taking only a small sample, and they can't ensure randomness.

On that first point, Nance points out that "poll participants are invariably a tiny fraction of the voting public." That's true. Nevertheless, the fraction isn't so tiny that two Hispanic responders might represent the whole Hispanic community. A typical national poll of the Gallup - Zogby - CNN variety samples about 800 to 1,200 people (either registered voters or likely voters, depending on the methodology). They'll have more than two Hispanics.

Sure, there can still be errors. Even if they were able to sample with perfect randomness, it would be possible to pick a random sample of 1,000 people, half of whom happened to be Bob Barr supporters. It's just unlikely. Exactly how unlikely any error is can be determined with fair mathematical precision, given the assumption of randomness in sampling. It turns out that the size of the sample, expressed as a fraction of the total universe, isn't very important. If a pollster gets responses from 1,000 New Hampshireites about their Senate race, and a different pollster gets responses from 1,000 Americans about the presidential race, the figures for Shaheen and Obama will be about equally reliable. The key to the "margin of error" of a poll is to predict the standard deviation of the population. (Yeah, I know, some of them are pretty deviant. Thank you, Groucho. Let's move on.)

For these reasons, I discount these two problems. First, I think it's reasonable to assume that the pollsters strive for accuracy. Second, there's mathematical basis for believing they'll achieve accuracy if they can get a truly random sample. That leaves the biggest problem -- the possible bias in sampling.

Nance writes:
You've stated that "Experienced pollsters can compensate for these problems, at least to some extent," and therein lies the problem. How do you 'compensate'? How do you base assumptions on a complete lack of data?


They don't have a complete lack of data. They have demographic information about the population and about past voting trends. For example, let's say that, based on Census data and on historic turnout, we conclude that 25% of the votes will be cast by people below a certain age. We then look at our sample and find that only 22% of it is below that age. (This is what would happen if, for example, younger people are more likely to have cell phones and no land lines.) I think the standard procedure is to give greater weight to the responses of those 22%. Similar fixes are applied for factors like gender, income level, etc. It's not perfect, because young people with land lines aren't necessarily representative of young people as a whole, but it's a lot better than what you'd get if you just recorded the responses of the first thousand people who answered their phones and reported those raw numbers.

So is polling "a flawed non-science", as Nance argues? It certainly doesn't have the precision of rocket science, where a very tiny percentage error would mean that the spacecraft either crashes into Titan or flies right past it. Success means entering orbit, which requires accuracy well to the right of the decimal point. That will never happen with polling. On the other hand, it has the basic characteristics of a science, namely that hypotheses can be formulated, subjected to experimental testing, and discarded if found false. Polling today is much more accurate than in, say, 1936, the year of the famous Literary Digest poll predicting an Alf Landon victory. Polling isn't rocketry but it's also better than an educated guess.

What would throw the polls off most significantly would be the presence of novel factors that they haven't yet been able to adjust for based on experience. The most obvious possibility, in my mind, would be that, this year, the long-heralded explosion in the youth vote finally occurs. Pollsters try to identify likely voters based on past trends. It's possible that Obama really will inspire huge turnout gains among young people. If so, then some polls could correctly predict McCain's percentage among each age group, yet overestimate McCain's percentage of the total. Of course, we've heard this before. I think there was an Onion headline about the 2004 election: "Young People Totally Intended to Vote in Record Numbers". You have to figure, though, that Obama has a better chance of pulling this off than Kerry did. Even those much-maligned polls showing that the percentage of support for the two major candidates is close also show that the percentage of enthusiastic support is a blowout for Obama. That certainly translates into those lawn signs that Nance sees. We can hope it will translate into turnout as well.

So, here's my prediction:

The election will be roughly comparable to 1980 (Carter vs. Reagan). The people are unhappy about the way the country is going, especially the economy. They want change. They're ready to vote out the incumbent party. Nevertheless, they have some doubts about the challenger -- about whether he's really Presidential caliber, especially at a time of foreign crisis. That concern will keep public opinion close until late October, and the polls will reflect that. Over the course of the campaign, though, the people will become more familiar with the challenger. They'll see him in televised debates, holding his own (or better) against his supposedly more knowledgeable opponent. They'll overcome their initial worries about him and decide that he can be trusted with the Presidency. The polls in the last week before the election will reflect those opinions, showing a significant shift away from the incumbent party, and the challenger will win with a popular-vote margin in the range of eight to ten percent.

No analogy is perfect. McCain isn't the incumbent seeking re-election, as Carter was, but I think McCain's efforts to distance himself from Bush will largely fail. The more important difference is that election fraud is a much bigger concern this year. Some votes will be stolen. The lesson I draw from the closeness of the polls is not that the pollsters are incompetent or are lying, but rather that we can't count on having that eight-to-ten percent cushion, which would probably be cheatproof. If Obama does indeed now have a slight lead, and if he doesn't benefit from a huge shift in his direction, then his lead on Election Day might still be small enough that it could be wiped out by fraud. And, yes, I'm now wishing I'd paid more attention to this problem beginning in 2004, but that's a topic for another post.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Addendum: A very informative article about polling
Congressional Quarterly has recently published an article that goes into much more detail about some of the subjects raised in this thread: .

It offers some support for each side in our discussion. Here's part of what it says about the cell-phone issue:


About 14 percent of the adult population now relies solely on cell phones — a disproportionately young cohort (typically 18-29 years old) that contains a greater proportion of African-Americans and Hispanics, males and the religiously unaffiliated. Because Obama derives so much support from these groups, pollsters are having to decide whether to conduct random cell phone-only surveys — which can cost three times more because of the extra screening involved and federal regulations that require the numbers to be manually dialed by interviewers, not auto-dialed.

Late last year, the Pew Research Center conducted two surveys of people who use land lines, cell phones only, or both, and found that all three groups responded similarly on key political measures such as presidential approval, the war in Iraq, party affiliation and which candidate they were supporting in primaries. However, the demographic mix of the cell-only population made respondents more sensitive to such issues as immigration and less concerned with Social Security or pension reform. They also were more likely to get their news from the Internet, late-night comedy shows, or social networking sites than newspapers or network evening news programs.

Pew polls now include periodic cell phone samples, along with land-line polling, to bolster the representation of groups that are disproportionately cell-only, such as young blacks and Hispanics.


The CQ article also discusses one of this year's biggest polling goofs: the New Hampshire Democratic primary. Polls predicted a substantial Obama win, but the result was a narrow Clinton win. Note that, in this instance, the error was to report a close race as being not close, rather than vice versa, which undercuts the charge that the pollsters try to create drama where there is none.



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liberaltrucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Slam-dunk, Nance!
:toast:

Like many truckers, my only means of voice communication is
a cell phone. However I have a rather archaic device called
a CB radio (remember those?). Naturally, there are racists,
but the VAST majority of the drivers I talk to are at least
considering Barack. That in itself is a huge change from 04
and 00. There's hope. IMHO, folks in my profession, for the
most part, represent the mood of the Nation. That is NOT good
news for the Repukes-from President to dog-catcher.

:)
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Amen, Nance! It's so blatant, it'd be ridiculous were it not so
fucking SHAMELESS and sad.

Knocked it outta the park, as usual, Ma'am. :hug:
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. If the pollsters didn't provide the "numbers"
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 10:34 PM by madamesilverspurs
MSM would have to ask questions that aren't slanted in their phrasing. The latest meme is "Why doesn't Obama have a bigger lead?" Way more than a mere suggestion that there's a problem. Seems to me that they should be asking why the guy with all the (alleged) experience isn't miles ahead instead of consistently behind. One could almost believe that Diebold is doing their thinking for them. Yikes, talk about your standard deviations...!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. But then the question arises: How do the pollsters keep randomly finding so many stupid people?
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 11:07 PM by defendandprotect
Supposedly, Bush also found many "stupid people" to vote for him . . .

but, me thinks not --- !!!
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. but but but
young people don't vote. the gnews said so!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
19. Terrific post.
But, be careful, they're not in a jokery mood tonight.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
20. This was a joy to read, Nance. I love your perspective and optimism. n/t
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. 3 pollsters walk into a bar...... --------------------->>>>>
The first one runs through the crowd asking questions, and announces "I am with CNN and OBAMA is ahead 60% to 40%"
The second one runs through the crowd asking questions, and announces "I am with MSNBC and McCain is behind 40% to 60%"
The third one announces "I am with FOX News and we have a statistical tie"
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
23. Every poll I've seen shows Obama ahead.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 03:16 AM by caseymoz
I'd say at 4 points on average. And despite what you've been hearing, it has been very consistent. If you add up all the data, you come up with a substantial lead by Obama with a very low margin of error. This is exactly what I saw of Bush-Kerry polling numbers in 2004.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm

Even with the lack of cellphone coverage, the problem isn't the polling, the problem is the news reporting about it. They'll report a one point shift as a substantial tightening in the polls of the race, because voters opinions are beginning to move. For audience or leadership, they'll create news, as Gallup/USA Today did by throwing "unlikely voters" from the sample. To gain readership, it was effective, too, as many people probably wanted to find out where this sudden, solid McCain lead.

In passing I'll say that McCain's offering his wife up for the Buffalo Chip Pageant was a very serious error. He probably booted away 2-4 percentage points of women voters, who are probably not coming back, and that's one to two percent of his polling numbers. It's significant, and probably enough to put two states into Obama's column.
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RNdaSilva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
24. "A Pollish Joke"
Thought I was going to catch you in a spelling error. Should've known better.

Great piece...per usual. Definitely agree.
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Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
26. Dear Madam Vice President Greggs
I choose to fully believe polls that validate what I want to hear. I find it very reassuring in these troubling times. Polls that disagree with the "true" polls are obviously biased and inaccurate as easily proven by comparing them with the results of the true polls.

Don't take this away from me, as a religious agnostic I have a reservoir of blind faith in need of an outlet.
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
27.  Another good one.
Your string of winners is intact. Count me as a fan.
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. good points.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
29. K & R ...
:kick:
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Stats are stats.. the % margin is those pesky little outliers.. and boy
they sure get pesky these days... Beleive me, I've seen some of my Prof. fudge stats for grants... its possible to fudge these numbers even easier.. You probably cannot replicate the same survey or the same results; even if you contacted the same people each time.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
31. Dewey beats Truman... nt
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