Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

VP Blues

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:10 PM
Original message
VP Blues
I. How to Pick a Vice President

There are several schools of thought.

I. VP as Meat Shield. This is for the president who worries about being impeached---Richard Nixon, George H.W. Bush. Pick a Spiro Agnew or Dan Quayle so that Congress can not impeach you for fear of having an idiot president. With impeachment now a Texas Two Step, you have bought yourself extra protection.
II. VP as Help Mate. This is the option for the most confident candidates---Bill Clinton, LBJ. Select a running mate whom you really like, who has politics a lot like yours, whom you can send to work doing important jobs during your administration. Bill Clinton made Al Gore one of the most active VPs of all time. LBJ revealed an unexpected liberal streak when he selected Humphrey, whom he put to work on progressive causes.
III. VP as Back Up President. This is the option for the novice candidate. The one who is strong on charisma but low on national experience. Former governors Carter, Reagan, Bush Jr. and youthful JFK all made good use of well known veteran party stalwarts to shore up the base and to reassure voters that once they were in office someone would have their back. This allowed the American people to take a chance on change.


Which kind of Vice President should Barrack Obama select? His number one vulnerability is the same as that of JFK----his extreme youth and his exotic background. JFK was a Catholic. Obama is of mixed race and spent part of his life in another country. Obama needs a VP with extremely high name recognition----there should be no “getting to know you” involved. If the GOP has a chance to paint his VP as inexperienced or risky, then his choice will do him no good. He needs someone with experience. He needs someone who can mobilize the party base. He needs someone who can clean up in the VP debates. He needs his own LBJ.

II. The Selection of LBJ to Run With JFK

In retrospect, the selection of Johnson to be Kennedy’s running mate was a fortunate one. The combo probably helped JFK win his squeaker close victory over Nixon. LBJ continued to fight for such JFK initiatives as the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and he created Medicare. However, at the time, people predicted disaster.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n10_v29/ai_19898073/pg_3?tag=artBody;col1

By late morning, word of an impending johnson nomination had reached the convention floor. "All hell broke loose! They were just up in arms," Hubert Humphrey said of his fellow liberals. The normally sanguine Arthur Schlesinger lit into Phil Graham with such ferocity that Grahams wife, Katharine, had to pull them apart. New Mexico Congressman Stewart Udell ran from delegation to delegation "putting out fires," promising his liberal friends that a Kennedy-Johnson ticket was the surest route to victory. It was a difficult pitch. Negro leaders cried "sell-out", the D.C. delegation, infuriated by rumors of Johnson's selection, threatened hollowly to tear the convention apart. As word of the spreading liberal revolt reached JFK's suite, Robert Kennedy in particular saw the choice of Johnson as a grave mistake.

Johnson had his own fires to quench. Few Texans had even considered that LBJ might take the vice presidency. Now, most felt deserted and sick at heart, just as bitter as the Kennedy supporters. "Who'd want to be vice president for that man?" Jake Jacobson demanded. Juanita Roberts, Johnson's secretary, was not the only one to characterize the ticket as upside down. In Johnson's suite, political leaders gathered to voice their support or outrage. Robert Kerr was so livid that upon confirmation of the bad news, he reportedly slapped Bobby Baker in the face. Get me my .38," Kerr yelled at Baker, LBJ, and Lady Bird. "I'm gonna kill every damn one of you. I can't believe that my three best friends would betray me" Eventually, either Rayburn or Baker converted Kerr, who apologized to the Johnsons for "los my head "

Meanwhile, the two Kennedy brothers sat alone inside Jack's suite in utter indecision. "Jack changed his mind back and forth, as I did ... at least six times," Bobby remembered. "The problem was, if it wasn't a good idea, how you'd get out of it. Secondly, if you did get him out of it, how bitter would he be?" Shortly after 1:00 p.m. they decided to talk Johnson off the ticket, to undo "the terrible mistake" Text


But in retrospect, it was not a mistake. It was a winning move. JFK had avoided the Last Temptation.

III. The Last Temptation

From the link above:

Had Bobby been converted to a Kennedy-Johnson ticket? It seems highly unlikely, for as Bobby later explained, johnson had 'said some rather nasty things -- or his people had -- and we hadn't really gotten over that'.


Politics is not for the squeamish or those with fragile egos. If you care that your opponent “said some rather nasty things” you will soon find that there is no one you can do business with in DC.

The Last Temptation is to put ego before duty. I don’t wanna have a VP who said some rather nasty things about me in the primary . Why not? If having a former rival close at hand makes voters more likely to ignore your own relative lack of experience and elect you president so you can acquire experience in office then what is lost?

Once you are the Party nominee, you have a duty to the Party to create a ticket that is electable. If you do not win because ego got in the way, 100% of the responsibility will rest on your head forever.

IV. The Thomas Eagleton Consideration

The Republicans and their right wing news media flunkies have made it clear that they are using the 1972 Pat Buchanan/Nixon/CREEP handbook. Chaos at the Convention, moles online posing as supporters of Obama or Clinton posting inflammatory rubbish about fellow Democrats (the use of “cattle futures”, “Vince Foster” and “Clintonista” at DU should have been the tip off), conservative journalists instructing Republicans to cross over to vote first for Obama and then later for Clinton to keep the Democratic primary contest going as long as possible. These things have been well documented elsewhere, and I have linked the documentation in my journals.

This means that the next step in the plan will be moles planted at the Convention to disrupt the proceedings. Maybe a national terra warning to distract from Obama’s big moment.

And then a replay of the Eagleton Affair, since this sealed the nails in the McGovern campaign’s coffin.

Democratic nominee George S. McGovern's presidential hopes virtually evaporated when it was revealed shortly after the party convention that his newly chosen vice presidential running mate, Missouri U.S. Sen. Thomas F. Eagleton, had been hospitalized on three occasions for depression and had undergone electroshock therapy.

Eagleton had kept the explosive information from McGovern at the convention, but too many Missouri politicians and others knew about his secret for it to be kept under wraps. An anonymous tip about Eagleton's past to the Detroit Free Press began the chain of events that eventually brought the Democrat's episodes to public view.

The least responsible coverage of the ensuing frenzy was provided by columnist Jack Anderson, who falsely reported a half-dozen Eagleton "arrests" for drunk driving and other traffic offenses based on a questionable and unverified tip. Anderson's gross breach of journalistic ethics in printing unproven gossip generated some sympathy for Eagleton, but it could not save him.

Under pressure from McGovern and many senior Democrats, Eagleton withdrew from the ticket, but not before McGovern had swallowed a suicide pill by declaring himself to be "1,000 percent" behind his doomed partner.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/frenzy/eagleton.htm

Who was spreading all these rumors? No one knows for certain, however according to Hunter S. Thompson, the FBI had Eagleton’s hospital records.

This was all back in 1972, before there were 7 ½ years of warrantless government spying on every telecommunications transmission in the United States. The Bush administration knows everything that every possible VP nominee----and their families, friends, campaign workers, staff---have done, said, bought online and sold (as in stocks) during all this time. They also have the goods on lots of people who can be persuaded to make things up about possible VP nominees.

If Obama picks someone who is relatively unknown on the national stage, that person has a great big Kick Me sign plastered on his or her back. Because Karl Rove has no imagination. Karl Rove’s biggest fault is his predictability. If something works once, he will do it again. There is zero chance that they will not try the Eagleton ploy if there is any way that they can get away with it. And as we all know from the Eagleton affair, asking a candidate, his family, friends and staffers if he has skeletons in his closet assures you of absolutely nothing. You need someone who has had time to acquire political enemies who would have uncovered and used any dirt that was there already.

V. If McGovern/Humphrey had run in 1972….

Nixon still would have won. He was the incumbent, and he was breaking laws and doing dirty tricks. But I will bet that McGovern would not have lost 49 out of 50 states.

McGovern, as the winner of his party's nomination, was willing to bury the hatchet. Humphrey refused to run with McGovern. He was too angry. Pat Buchanan’s divide and conquer operation in which dirty tricks were played against one Democrat and attributed to another Democrat proved wildly successful. None of the other Democratic candidates would run with McGovern. Even Teddy Kennedy, who supported McGovern would not help him out. It was the year the party imploded, just the way that Nixon wanted it to.

This year, things are less lop sided. The race between Obama and McCain is much closer, since neither is an incumbent. Maybe that is why Obama is the one who is unwilling to bury the hatchet. He thinks he needs no help winning the election. He does not like the thought of being overshadowed, so he would rather not have the woman who got almost as many votes as he did sharing the ticket with him.

Fear of being upstaged by your VP choice is not a sound reason to reject a running mate. If your VP can draw that kind of support, then she is an asset. A winner never misses an opportunity to improve his odds. Resentment over "nasty words" in the primary is not a sound reason to reject a running mate. If it were, JFK probably would have lost to Nixon and we would not have a Voting Rights Act, a Civil Rights Act and no Medicare either, but we still would have had the Vietnam War.

Clinton settles the experience problem, the same way that LBJ, Mondale, Bush Sr and Cheney settled it for their running mates. She is solid with the base, so that Obama can attempt to connect with independents. She is excellent at debate and on the attack. She is thick skinned and does not mind being the target of the GOP's negative campaigning. She has an established network of supporters and donors to draw upon. She is strong on the economy, the number one issue with voters. She can pull back the blue collar Democrats that McCain is trying to poach and shore up the battleground states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Florida. She is used to playing second fiddle and letting someone else take all the credit. She also makes an effective meat shield, since there are many Republicans who will hesitate to make a serious attempt to unseat Obama for fear of creating a second Clinton presidency.

Most important of all, the unity ticket eliminates the lingering question of dirty tricks in the Democratic primary, which the Republicans will attempt to exploit to greater advantage in the fall in order to peel away some of those 17.5 million Clinton voters. For those too young to remember 1972, Humphrey had a loyal Democratic following, and they were steamed with George McGovern. His African-American base was not about to vote for Nixon, but they reversed their trend of increasing participation in presidential elections. I.e. that year a bunch of Black people stayed home rather than vote for McGovern. And blue collar whites who traditionally voted for Humphrey----an unusually high number of them crossed over and voted for Nixon. This year we may see women stay home and we may see blue collar whites cross over to vote for McCain, and that could be enough to tip the election if it is a close one.








Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Women are not going to be staying home for this election.
Don't be such a blowhard for the Republicans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Read the WaPo link below. A fair number of working class voters believe neither candidate represents
them. This is Obama's chance to broaden his appeal to the working class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Unions strongly support and have roundly endorsed Barack Obama.
Unions represent working people.

Women are not going to stay home on election day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. So naive.
You really think you speak for unions and women? You're willing to bet America's faith that you're right, just 'cause you can't stand that woman?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. I speak my small part for unions and my small part as a
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 07:32 PM by Old Crusoe
pro-feminist male. Yes.

In the meanwhile, Obama leads among low-wage workers over John McCain by a 2-to-1 margin.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/hardesthit/images/assets/Poll.pdf?hpid=topnews



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Then we share a history.
Unions could save the country.

But the OP never said he would lose the unions. I believe her point was that we don't need to let mccain have a third of the low-wage vote. Why give those up?

And some women will stay home. I know some who are angry. They are not going to support mccain, and they don't believe he will be better, but just like their domestic or social lives, they are tired of being taken for granted. The attitude that they haven't got a choice, that they have nowhere else to go, so why bother to listen to them is pissing them off. They know not voting Democratic isn't a rational choice, but sometimes you just get so damned tired of always getting the short end of the stick that you don't care. That is how a group of very liberal and very intelligent women put it to me the other day. They got a little steamed when I tried to tell them that mccain would be worse. Steamed that I would assume they didn't know that. One told me it was a gut choice, that the only reason she could think of is that it was for the long haul. Maybe the Democratic leadership and all those "damned little yuppie pseudo feminists" (her words) would stop using their vote like their own personal toilet paper if they thought women would not just fall in line every damned time. In the long run, they probably will still vote Democratic, just maybe not at the national ticket. It might depend on how the campaign goes. Will Obama walk for feminist issues?

I just don't see why we should take the chance with any votes. This isn't going to be the cakewalk that some think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I feel that the claim that women will stay home in any significant
numbers is absurd.

Women, by virtue of their being women, are not going to vote against Barack Obama because he isn't female and Hillary Clinton IS female.

That's not a feminist position. And it's not a reliable, statistically likely outcome for voters.

My grandmother was very active in the (virtually) socialist farm labor movement in the midwest. The Depression rattled through the American farmland a long time before it became an official, "calendared" historical event in the cities. She had no female candidates on her ballot in northcentral Indiana or in southwestern North Dakota. None. It didn't stop her from organizing to change the attitudes that had to be challenged in order to get different outcomes.

A voter -- male or female -- is not going to be sitting this one out. Way, way too much is at stake.

The OP is thorough and often insightful and I've offered praise on more than one occasion.

But this is a nervous fake to endorse Hillary Clinton as Obama's veep. I'm a sucker for anything Kennedy, but even that analogy here is skewhunky.

Still a slim chance HClinton will be the veep nom. But I strongly doubt it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Yours is a very cerebral reasoning.
But not all actions come from rational thought. Some come from a feeling inside.

So we will just disagree on how many will be angry enough to act in spite. The question about selecting the VP nominee is...Why run the risk? What is to be gained by taking the chance. What Democrat would make a better VP? Pulls more votes? Has more experience?

As I said elsewhere, I don't think she should take the position. It will only hurt her to do so. But it might let us put a Democrat in the Oval Office. it would be a sacrifice for her to take the VP nomination. I wish Al Gore had been willing to make that sacrifice and run.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. Obama has a list of maybe 60 people who could contribute
one or more specific strenghts to either his chances at getting elected and/or his ability to govern once he defeats McCain.

So if we wake up tomorrow morning and Obama announces that he's chosen Kathleen Sebelius, there will likely be a few people who stomp their feet and pout because she isn't Hillary Clinton.

Of course it would have worked the other way as well -- had HClinton prevailed in the primaries she would face at least some pressure by Obama supporters to choose him. But as the nominee, she would have been fully free to pick Wes Clark or Evan Bayh or George Mitchell. It would be her call and her supporters would defend her right to make it without impediment.

A popular leftist talk host last night spoke the praises of Ralph Nader. He's free to do so but I'm not a big fan of Ralph Nader, which is to say I like both that talk host and I respect Nader's brains, but I'm a lifelong Democrat and will support the ticket. I understand Malloy speaks for many people, some on these boards, but the election isn't going to be decided on the left end of the political chart. It's going to be decided somewhere near the middle.

It's a good time to be a Democrat, IMO, because the modern-day Republican Party's "middle" is way too far Right for me.

Gore these days lifts me. Gore of 2000 was less lifting, but still wildly more capable than the man who cheated him for the presidency. I'd feel a lot better about my country if either Gore or Kerry were in charge of it.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. His choice.
i agree. The OP was that Clinton added the most to both his chance to win and his chance to deal effectively once in office. I agree with the OP. I will vote Democratic, but don't believe we have it "wrapped up".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Women are going to be doinf all kinds of things
in this election. Just like men.

This was a long and interesting post. Did you just read the last few sentences?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. The OP disconnects on key points. Kennedy Johnson is endlessly
provocative stuff but in that era unions, for example, for much stronger and more influensive in U.S. elections and represented a more vital portion of the U.S. economy.

Hillary Clinton does not necessarily represent either working people or feminists. Neither of those groups are going to stay home in November.

Obama does not need Hillary Clinton on the ticket. A strong case can be made, on the other hand, that Kennedy would have lost had Johnson not helped in Texas and other southern states.

Before there was a "Nixon" doctrine for claiming the Southern states in elections, all the ingredients were in place. Johnson held the coalition together one last desperately close time.

Barack Obama is in no position remotely correspondent to that, among working voters, women voters, or most anybody else.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. You sullied a pretty thoughtful post with this:
"He thinks he needs no help winning the election. He does not like the thought of being overshadowed, so he would rather not have the woman who got almost as many votes as he did sharing the ticket with him."

This is pure surmise on your part, and amazingly unconvincing surmise at that.

I don't want Clinton as VP, personally, but there are some arguments in favor of her, and you've touched on some of them here. But the two sentences I've cited above really undercut your credibility.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LowerManhattanite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Agendas...
Some are hidden. Others, not so much.

Alas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. The endless pull on Obama's pantleg on this is becoming tiresome.
Each day we are treated to a new manifestation of the reindeer games played in the primaries. Surely in light of the strident admonitions and threats coming from the disgruntled they can't possibly think this nonstop manipulation helps their cause celebre, yet it continues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. He doesn't want Bill Clinton wandering around the WH, if I had a nickel for every time
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 04:04 AM by McCamy Taylor
I have read someone at DU give this as a reason why Obama should not pick Clinton, I would be a rich women. I am not making this stuff up. What is so awful about having Bill Clinton hanging around the WH? If Obama does not want to take his advice, he ignores him. If he does not want to hear him, he tells him to shut up. If he does not want to see him, he bars him from the premises. He will be the president. The "I don't want Bill Clinton hanging around the WH excuse" is lame. And I read it somewhere here within the last two days.

We are talking about the election that will decide the fate of our military and our economy. I will believe that Obama can solve the world's crises better if he convinces me that he can deal with one ex-president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. That's a very good point
And he needs to get elected.
And to get elected Clinton support is valuable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. Maybe that's is what she thinks.
You think that her thoughts are "amazingly unconvincing". Do you have any evidence of why her ideas are not as amazingly convincing as yours. I didn't like to think that he might be afraid of being upstaged was a part of the equation, but given the amazingly convincing reasons to have Clinton on the ticket, I don't think that considering this idea to be far afield. I dare say that any reasons you might give for snubbing her for the position might also be surmise and just as worthy of being labeled "amazingly unconvincing".

I don't think she should accept the offer. It would not benefit her politically and it would make her the target for every failed policy in the next four years. I think she knows that, but I also think she would do it because she can see that it is the best way to put a Democrat in the Oval Office.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. I really enjoyed the tales from the Kennedy/Johnson nomination brouhaha
and your commentary. I strongly disagree with your conclusion, however.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think Clinton would be a fighter.
She wasn't an effective fighter against Obama. She whined. She cried. She looked for sympathy. And on that basis alone, I think she would drag down the ticket. I won't mention other negatives.

I would like to see someone who is THIN-skinned become the Democratic VP nominee. Someone who could get blisteringly angry. Someone who would tear into McCain and his presumptive VP, Terry Schiavo, like a feral cat into a dead chipmunk. Such a candidate could be like Nixon was for Eisenhower; he could do the dirty work and allow the top of the ticket to remain clean.

Sadly, all the national Democrats are wimps. About the only angry candidate I can think of, because of past performances against Republican jerks, is Jon Stewart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. then like jfk
he needs southern or southwestern VP
like richardson
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. OT - but I need someone to enlighten me --
Why did everyone else refuse to run with McGovern? Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. humphrey had em by the balls
and was pitching a hissy it is kind of the way i remember it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Had him by the balls about what -- and pitching a hissy fit about what?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. i may be remebering wrongly
he had party big wigs lined up but didnt get the nom so he made sure mgovern had little support
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Okay - that makes sense. Thanks! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
55. In the OP
McCamy discusses the "dirty tricks" campaign that the republicans used to get the Democrats divided. It worked well. Karl Rove is an admirer of that campaign. We just got treated to the same thing in the primary and its evidence is all over this board. Humphrey and his people bought all the mess about McGovern saying this or doing that, and McGovern supporters did the same of Humphrey.

Deja Vu is a glitch in the Matrix. If we ignore it when the same thing is happening now, we will find brick walls behind those curtains.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FraDon Donating Member (316 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
57. It was worse than that. There was a virtual DNC boycott at the state & local level
for the top of the ticket. I traveled to college campuses across the northeast, for "McGovern / Shriver and a Congress that Cares". In most of the towns, the organizations were actually separate, and barely communicating.

Also, let us not forget the "temporary" lifting of "Operation Intercept" which flooded the campuses across the nation with higher quality, lower cost recreational drugs. You want to suppress student enthusiasm and political activity, keep 'em stoned. Everywhere I went, I would urge more organizing to get out the vote. Far too often, what I got was, "Yeah, yeah, soon enough; here try this."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. McGovern faced long odds initially in winning the nomination, but once
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 12:03 AM by Old Crusoe
he did win it, he faced even longer odds against Nixon, an incumbent, during a war which the majority of voters still supported.

Not long after the Nixon landslide win in 1972, two things happened that brought substantial change. One was that the majority of voters who supported the war began to turn in larger numbers away from that support and a critical mass was reached. Cultural pressures were brought to bear and at one point POETS for example (and many others) began to call Nixon very harsh names regarding his conduct of the war, and asking why, if the (now) majority of people in the country opposed the Vietnam War why young men should be punished for refusing to fight in it.

The second thing was that the barely perceptible whispers of Watergate began to take form. Very possibly the Washington POST had significant help from someone inside the government -- a Deep Throat contact or someone else -- or more than just one person -- and eventually critical mass was reached here as well, with it becoming clearer each week of 1973 and early 1974 that the President of the United States mobilized arms of the government to act against its own citizens.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. So essentially nobody wanted to be part of a losing ticket?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Eagleton bravely took the offer, then encountered career-ending
questions on electroconvulsive therapy treatments the press reported that he had received.

Sargeant Shriver, also a brave soul, stepped in to handle the duties of the campaign, but by then it was all over.

Sad to say, yes, many high-profile Dems turned McGovern down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Man - and we really needed him.
As the country soon learned and you mentioned in your post what a mistake Nixon was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes. Many of my relatives liked Nixon, having voted for him against
Kennedy.

They did not have either the wherewithal or the courage to admit that "those damn hippies" with the jeans and the beads and the peace signs were right bout the war.

Getting to that critical mass stage was a long, arduous road. People were gassed and beaten in Chicago and college kids gunned down at Kent State.

A dark time in our country's past.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. And I was teargassed in Seattle.
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 12:24 AM by gateley
A dark time, but we were growing and making strides at the same time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I am sorry that happened to you. Thank you for YOUR service to
bringing some light into that dark time.

The anti-war movement made some mistakes tactically, but it nver went so low as to break into psychiatrist's offices, as Nixon ordered, etc.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Oh - No need to be sorry - it was worth it!
We were DOING something. It was an exhilarating time, even with the horrors and ugliness of the war.

You're so right about the vileness of Nixon and the government. And the FBI!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. hey howdy
i was teargassed in washington DC
lol
good times good times
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. ....
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. ..
:smoke: koff koff
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. ...
:rofl: No kidding!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. I saw a bumper sticker back then
Volt for Eagleton
He's up on current events.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. Because of CREEP, the Pat Buchanan startegy to put the Dems at each other's throats
by playing dirty tricks against one dem that appeared to have come from another. Hunter S. Thompson, who was covering the McGovern campaign for the Stone added to the trouble by writing absolutely dreadful things about all the other candidates and then making his support for McGovern crystal clear. The implications was that McGovern and his people thought the same thing (Read "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72" some of the awful things that were said about Humphrey, comparing him to animals, tales of suitcases full of mob money, stuff like that). Since Thompson was a buddy of Pat Buchanan, I have long suspected that he may have been used like a two dollar whore by Buchanan during that election (as in "Hey, if you write for your man for the Stone you might be able to help him get elected. Just be frank. Write what you really think about the other candidates.") Pat Buchanan is much smarter than almost any other journalist. Remember, he wrote speeches and planned strategy for Nixon, and Nixon was extremely intelligent. Everyone underestimates Buchanan, because he hides his intelligence in order to disarm people, but if you watch him closely on MSNBC you can see that he always catches on to things much faster than anyone else. Rachel Madow is the only one who approaches him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. You seem blind-sided to what happened. McGovern won that
nomination.

Humhrey and other lost.

Hunter S. Thompson did not cause Hubert Humphrey to lose.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salonghorn70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. No One Wanted To Run With McGovern Because
everyone knew he was going to lose and probably lose big.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Obama does not *need* Clinton.
He doesn't *need* any one person. He has a number of good options that would compliment him well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. He needs all the support he can get
because we need him to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. John Edwards can accomplish the same thing as Clinton, if he is willing to run as VP again.
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 03:53 AM by McCamy Taylor
Since he is also strongly identified with economic issues and has a strongly following with the Democratic base and is well known. However, the press hates him much more than Clinton---witness the way they began to torpedo his campaign in January 2007. Since Edwards was and is my preferred candidate I still wish that he was the nominee, however, I think that it might be more humane to let him and Elizabeth have some time with their family at this point.

Richardson is another option, however his strength is all in foreign affairs, not in economic issues, which is where Obama needs the help.

Obama is unusually reluctant to talk about progressive economic issues. I guess he does not want to scare voters by making them think that he is an extreme or radical or left wing candidate. He is trying to be Reagan, second term, Morning in America. Something for everyone. But the posture he is taking has some people in dire economic need convinced that he is a corporate candidate who does not care for the working class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/03/AR2008080301969.html?hpid%3Dtopnews

Obama's advantage is attributable largely to overwhelming support from two traditional Democratic constituencies: African Americans and Hispanics. But even among white workers -- a group of voters that has been targeted by both parties as a key to victory in November -- Obama leads McCain by 10 percentage points, 47 percent to 37 percent, and has the advantage as the more empathetic candidate.

Still, one in six of the white workers polled remains uncommitted to either candidate. And a majority of those polled, both white and minority, are ambivalent about the impact of the election, saying that no matter who wins, their personal finances are unlikely to change.

"It's not my main concern in life," said Mary Lee, 50, a factory worker in rural Kentucky. "I know how politics is. I really don't think it's going to matter either way."


If he plans to continue this type of I'm a statesman, not an ideologue campaign, he needs someone who can immediately engage all of the angry, resentful Democratic and Independent voters who need health insurance and jobs and mortgage relief.

I have considered all the options and Clinton is the best though certainly not perfect. The GOP would love to use her to increase their own turn out. However, there is a definite lack of old style New Deal type progressive Dems right now.

Hmmm. Maybe he should consider Lloyd Doggett from Texas. That's about as old school as you can get.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. gad. baloney atop spam.
your posts are endless conjecture rooted in your own fevered imagination. Richardson has far more experience than JE on domestic economic issues. Edwards is a one term Senator who did nothing whatsoever of note to advance progressive economic policies whilst in the U.S. Senate. Richardson is a Governor and a 7 term U.S. Representative. And you vastly overrate JE's popularity with the American electorate. He's demonstrated that he can win... nothing.

And sorry, as always you get the basic facts wrong: Obama's greatest perceived weakness is not on economic issues but on foreign policy. The MSM has pushed that line for months. Hillary pushed it and so has the McCain campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Did you actually read it?
Or just pick out a phrase or two?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. If you consider JFK being assasinated a good outcome then..
Yea i guess it worked out great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. That's just plain silly. The good outcome is that there was a decent VP to continue JFKs policies.
Had JFK had the equivalent of a Dan Quayle, then the Republicans might have nominated Rockefeller and won the next election.

It always pays to have a good VP--unless you plan to commit crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Just silly?
perhaps he would still be alive today.

Kennedy increased the number of U.S. military in Vietnam from 800 to 16,300. It remains a point of controversy among historians whether or not Vietnam would have escalated to the point it did had Kennedy served out his full term and possibly been re-elected in 1964.<25> Fueling this speculation are statements made by Kennedy's and Johnson's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara that Kennedy was strongly considering pulling out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. In the film "The Fog of War", not only does McNamara say this, but a tape recording of Lyndon Johnson confirms that Kennedy was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, a position Johnson states he disapproved of.<26> Additional evidence is Kennedy's National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) #263 on October 11, 1963 that gave the order for withdrawal of 1,000 military personnel by the end of 1963. Nevertheless, given the stated reason for the overthrow of the Diem government, such action would have been a dramatic policy reversal, but Kennedy was generally moving in a less hawkish direction in the Cold War since his acclaimed speech about World Peace at American University the previous June 10, 1963.


LBJ quickly escalated our involvement in Vietnam from 16k and probably falling to 550k. I am sure that made the military industrial complex very happy. Maybe if he had picked a VP that was more in tune with him we wouldnt have gone that route after his death. Kind of mirrors this election with Obama being more interested in avoiding wars and Hillary more interested in provoking them eh?

What is silly is the idea that Obama needs Hillary to win this election.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. You are suggetsting LBJ killed JFK? I have not heard that one before. Care to supply evidence?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. What color is the sky in your world?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. Not only continue them
but turn some excellent ideas into actual legislation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
30. Russ Feingold would fit all those roles perfectly.
I. VP as Meat Shield.

Russ is so liberal that no Republican in their right mind would want him to succeed Obama.


II. VP as Help Mate.

Both men are constitutional lawyers from the Midwest with an emphasis on ethics issues. Feingold could easily help with progressive causes.

III. VP as Back Up President.

Feingold has 15 years of US Senate experience and another 10 years of Wisconsin State Senate experience on top of that. He's incredibly qualified and is in alignment with the party base on most issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. I would love Russ Feingold. It is a true "Bill Clinton" choice, very gutsy.
If Obama is really confident of winning, he won't be afraid to select a VP whose very name says "LIBERAL" in great big bold letters for everyone in the whole country to see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
37. Hillary would alienate as many as she attracted
A very, very small number of PUMA types will stay home if Hillary isn't on the ticket and frankly, if they're that fucking petty, they deserve President McCain. So, picking Hillary would bring them in. However, the moderate Republicans and independants that Obama is trying to attract are a big problem with Hillary. Roughly half the nation said they would never vote for Hillary before she'd even started campaigning. I'll be the first to admit that most of that isn't Hillary's fault but the fact remains that she would alienate more voters than she attracted.

Richardson would be a decent choice, Biden would be a good one. Barbara Boxer would be wonderful but I don't see it happening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. this is not backed by recent polling -
"According to the July 22-23 Fox/Opinion Dynamics poll, in an Obama-McCain head-on match-up, Sen. Obama gets just 74% of the Democrats and 6% of the Republicans. With Sen. Clinton as his running mate vs. a McCain-Romney ticket, Sen. Obama's Democratic vote goes up to 86%--a significant 12% increase. As for Republican voters, rather than getting "revved up" because of Hillary's presence on the ticket, there was no effect at all: The Obama-Clinton ticket gains 3% (from 6% to 9% among Republicans), whereas McCain-Romney gains the same 3% (from 82% to 85%).

So what about independents? An Obama-Clinton ticket appears to gain some strength in this critical swing-voter group. With an Obama-McCain head-on contest, independents are evenly divided, 32%-30%, with Sen. Obama over Sen. McCain. But with an Obama-Clinton ticket vs. a McCain-Romney ticket, the independents favor Obama-Clinton 38%-30%--a statistically significant 6% increase in a crucial voter group."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. Hmm, that's a surprise
On the one hand, Fox is involved so I instinctively distrust it. On the other, if it's accurate, that's a welcome surprise. Got a link?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. well, it's always good to question Fox, but as AFAIK
Opinion Dynamics is a reputable polster.

I don't have a link to the original poll, I got it from this article -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lanny-davis/why-obama-should-pick-hil_b_115947.html

It's Lanny Davis, who I know a lot of folks don't like - but the numbers are interesting. I do know that Clinton consistantly polled better against McCain in electoral college matchups than Obama did during the primaries. There must be a reason for that.

I really do think that Hillary on the ticket guarantees a win this Nov - Obama, by himself, will be a nailbiter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. Why not Boxer? I am curious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
63. Not high-profile enough mainly
Admittedly, I'm a Brit so I may be wrong here but I get the impression that, outside us political junkies, Boxer isn't that well known.

Also, to counteract his main weakness, I can see Obama picking someone positively weighed down with experiance, one of the stalwarts of Congress or governing. Finally, I think Obama will probably play it safe with a white guy on the assumption that two minorities or a black guy and a woman would be a little more change than the electorate would be comfortable with.

All of that said, I'd love to be proved wrong. I think Boxer would make a fantastic VP pick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. Hillary surrogates have been pushing Biden, not Hillary (Rendell and McCauliffe)
I think it will be Biden... he will satisfy just about everyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Not me. I don't want President Biden if something bad happens. He is sort of creepy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thank you, McCamy, for a very sensible and thoughtful article.
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 02:56 PM by MasonJar
I think you should e-mail it to Obama for his consideration. We cannot lose this election; that will spell disaster for the country. I definitely think that Hillary will buffet the chances of that win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
digidigido Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
48. You make a very strong case for Hillary
It is abundantly clear that the choice of running mate is going to be very important. What Hillary does bring
in a very positive way is a reminder of "it's the economy, Stupid" and a history of having cleaned up the mess
of Bush 1. She inspires women and conveys a ticket of hope and change. I completely agree he needs someone
with experience. Joe Biden is another excellent choice. I really liked Richardson but not sure he's tough enough.
I loved John Edwards but with the stuff about a "love child" going around the press I don't think he's a wise choice
unless it's denied and provably denied, and he too doesn't exactly have a long record of government experience
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
66. Ah there you go again presuming you know Obama's deep secret fears.
Edited on Tue Aug-05-08 07:52 AM by JTFrog
What a joke these posts are becoming.

"Fear of being upstaged by your VP choice is not a sound reason to reject a running mate." :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


But Excellent Judgment is a perfect reason to reject a running mate that would jeopardize your message of having said Excellent Judgment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC