McCain refused to be released by Norht Vietnam, not out of courage, but out of self-preservation

[IndianaGreen]

McCain was treated gently by his North Vietnamese captors compared to the treatment that Admiral Stockdale had to endure. When he was offered to be released early on account of his father, McCain refused. This was not a gallant act or even an act of courage, but an act of self-preservation. McCain knew that if he had accepted the offer, he would forever be labeled a collaborator.

More about our war "hero:"

~The Measure of The Man~

Anyone who has had an adversarial relationship with John McCain will tell you that there are few with less self-control than the senator from Arizona. Many have questioned his ability to maintain a clear head in a time of crisis. For those of us who have seen these sparks of insanity from McCain, we know all too well that what lies beneath is something dark, ominous and certainly not presidential. John McCain makes reference to his service to our great nation by almost daily reminding us of his five and a half year captivity in the Hanoi Hilton. Yet few have been able to look beyond McCain, the POW, to examine his political record, as if it were taboo somehow to be critical of a former prisoner of war. But what about this former prisoner of war and his criticism of the very same people who fought to bring him home from the dark dank cell he likes to remind us about so much? - The POW/MIA Families of those less fortunate than McCain, those who still have yet to be returned to the soil they gave their lives for.

Since his return from Hanoi, McCain has …

~Ignored pleas of POW/MIA Family Members for his political influence in the overall POW/MIA Issue as well as with their individual cases

~Verbally abused POW/MIA Family Members in public and private

~Attempted to negatively influence those who testified before the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs

~Diminished legislation that gave oversight and protection to the families

~Dismantled protection to any future servicemen that go missing.

Yes, John McCain, the American politician, the man who many think would and should be the primary advocate and activist for the POW/MIA Issue is in fact the Issue’s primary adversary. You read correctly, the Issue’s primary adversary. John McCain has not provided one positive contribution to these same families that fought along side the first Mrs. McCain for close to six years to bring home all of those who were known to be captured by the Vietnamese. One would think that McCain would feel almost beholden to these fine American military families who united in one of their darkest hours to keep the POW/MIA Issue in the forefront of the War in Vietnam. Yet, nothing could be further from the truth.

http://powwarrior.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/the-measure-of-the-man-why-john-mccain-doesnt-measure-up/

[Hugabear]

1. This absolutely is important

Not so much because of his reasoning for refusing to be released, but for the abysmal way that he's treated servicemen and women since his release.

[IndianaGreen]

2. McCain has crapped on veterans!

Look at McCain's record when it comes to veterans! McCain opposed the new GI Bill, siding with Bush because the bill was "too generous" to our war veterans. This from a man that goes to the VFW and other veteran organizations a portrays himself as a champion of our soldiers, airmen, and sailors. What a hypocrite!

One thing we can say for certain about McCain, he is a son of privilege, just like George W. Bush. Like Bush, he has a good pedigree (grandfather and father were Navy admirals), and like Bush, he was a poor student more interested in parties and booze. Despite his bad grades and disciplinary problems, McCain exploited his family connections to leapfrog ahead of his classmates and land a coveted job as a Naval aviator. Sounds like Bush!

[LittleClarkie]

11. I'd rather focus on that than going after the man's war record

His treatment of veterans is relevant.

The rest of it strikes me as swiftboating. Hated it when they did it to Kerry, will not participate in it now with McCain.

[krawhitham]

15. It is not swiftboating if it is true

just saying

[BrklynLiberal]

3. Add this to the long list of reasons why no one should even consider voting for McSame.

[bigmoon]

4. Obama needs to attack him on this

He needs to be exposed that he was not the big war hero people think he is

[eridani]

16. Don't agree. If this attack is to be made, it must be made by anybody BUT Obama n/t

[IndianaGreen]

33. McCain was no war hero, and he wasn't a maverick

McCain Has Rejected Goldwater Legacy, Says Granddaughter

Sam Stein

John McCain is prone to tout himself as a "Goldwater Republican," the inheritor of a party and ideology that his Senate predecessor from Arizona, Barry Goldwater, helped shape decades ago.

But Goldwater's own family members say that, if the family patriarch were alive today, he would be sour on McCain and shudder at the kind of conservatism that the current GOP nominee is proposing.

"I don't know if he would recognize the Republican Party today," Alison Goldwater Ross, a registered Democrat and granddaughter of the 1964 GOP presidential candidate, told The Huffington Post. "I'm sure if we were to raise his ashes from the Colorado River... he would be going, 'What? This is not my vision. This is not my party.'"

Such bewilderment, Ross offered, would extend to McCain, the man who took over Goldwater's seat in the Senate in 1987 and currently is the GOP standard-bearer. The two Arizonans clashed on several occasions during their political careers. Goldwater, as documented in "Pure Goldwater," a book by the Senator's son Barry Jr., was depressed and angered by McCain's involvement in the Keating Five scandal. Later in his career, a rift developed between the two after McCain used Goldwater's name -- without his permission -- for fundraising purposes.

"My grandfather felt that he was deceived by McCain," she said. "Because he looked at McCain and said, here was this young guy who has a lot of potential in the Republican Party, who is coming through the ranks, and then he pulled something like this. My grandfather had to ask, 'Is this something I want to be close to?'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/27/goldwaters-granddaughter_n_103725.html

[littlebit]

36. Oh yes let Obama attack McCain on that

Then let's see how many people run back to the republican party. That would be the stupidest thing he could ever do.

[cliffordu]

5. This is the kind of attack that can work - use the stuff about the veterans he has

failed through really shitty voting record.

He is a complete failure, as a veteran, a legislator, and a man.

Leave the POW stuff alone, begin at his first diss of veterans.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

6. Attack away on his veterans' policy, but the POW shit is a deadly losing cause.

Honest. Really. No foolin'.

[RamboLiberal]

17. Exactly - I'm sorry to see DU'ers going down this path

and I really thought many here were smarter than this. Crap from the same crowd who smeared Kerry.

[Hugabear]

18. It's not "crap" or "swiftboating" if it is TRUE

In the case of John Kerry, you had a group of guys who were spreading lies about his service record.

In this case, it's absolutely true - McCain has even admitted that he collaborated with the North Vietnamese while he was a POW.

Is anything during his military career off limits?

[cliffordu]

25. Sorry you just cannot get it.

[Hugabear]

28. Well then, let me ask you this

Let's say that 30 years from now, one of the officers involved in the Abu Gharib torture scandal decides to run for president. Should we consider his/her actions at Abu Gharib to be off-limits? Would we say "they served their country, stop swiftboating them"?

[cliffordu]

31. If you cannot tell the difference between being a POW and a jailer at Abu Grahib

you are a fucking idiot.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

27. What part of "deadly losing cause" do you not understand?

:*

[Arkansas Granny]

20. Totally agree with you on this. His actions on the veterans policy is fair game.

We need to stay clear of any negative comments about his POW status. We would lose more votes than we would gain.

[grantcart]

7. People should be aware that

the people offering this are angry at McCain for siding with Kerry and Clinton.

They hate Clinton and Kerry as much as they hate McCain.


The charges of angrily confronting the MIA families has been thoroughly debunked. The account with Dolores Apodaca Alfond is on youtube and you can watch it. Please understand that when McCain is defending different people he is defending CLINTON appointees.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CazKanlYDg



These people believe that the PRV and the USG conspired to cover up MIA information.


The PRV gave investigation teams to literally go anywhere in the country, which they did, and mamoth excavations were undertaken like an archeological dig.


The PRV also opened up all of their files at their Defense Office.


At the end of the day the claims by the PRV were all upheld.



It is true that there was a relatively small group of about 20 prisoners in Laos that were known to be alive and disappeared at the same time. It is thought that they were executed as revenge to a particularly lethal bombing of civilians in Laos. It had nothing to do with the Vietnamese.

The United States never broke diplomatic relations with the government of the Pathet Lao (oddly enough) and maintained a small consulate in Vientenne all through the war.

[grantcart]

9. lol the youtube stopped as I was running through it again and is now

"no longer" available lol



It shows McCain getting pissed at these people but it is nowhere near the ferocity of their written accounts.

[LittleClarkie]

12. Thank you. This is a bit circular firing squad-ish

The same people went after Kerry in much the same way. It was weird then. It's weird now.

[Major Hogwash]

22. Clinton was not the President in 1992, when that hearing was held, grantcart.

So, the confrontation with Dolores Apodaca Alfond has not been debunked, as you claim.

The YouTube video shows an angry McCain, glaring at Dolores Apodaca Alfond simply for asking why that Senate subcommittee was shutting down, when all they had to do was ask for an extension for more time.

I don't understand why McCain refused to let Alfond speak or finish her statements. She wasn't addressing McCain, she was talking to Bob Smith, the guy from New Hampshire.
So, it doesn't make any sense to me why McCain was so upset.

This meeting took place before Clinton was even elected. It's from 1992.

[grantcart]

26. You are correct that this meeting was before Clinton

The reason that McCain didn't let these people continue is that after tens of thousands interviews with refugees, complete access by the Vietnamese to both the complete country and all of their files it was clear that there were no unaccounted for POWs or any obstruction to doing excavation work anywhere in Vietnam.

There had been a real reconciliation between American Viets and the Vietnamese to the point that the Americans actually ended up assisting the Vietnamese account for some of their missing.

The reason that the whole military leadership turned on this particular group is that after extensive briefing the overwhelming majority of POW/MIA families accepted the results. This splinter group did not and they tried to 'hijack' the leadership for all POW/MIA families. Their evidence is in the realm of 'crop circle' quality. Something seen from a satelite that only a MIA could have constructed. Having gone over the evidence over and over again the whole establishment had enough. McCain is upset because they have been explaining the same thing for 10 years and in order for thier charges to be true it means that all of the senior officers now in military leadership are lying and conspiring against MIAs.

When Clinton re-established full diplomatic relationships with Vietnam the Republicans tried to use it as an issue but McCain defended Clinton and undercut the Republicans on this issue. This was the old McCain that would occasionally step up and do the right thing. That McCain is long gone.


If you want to slime McCain on this be my guest.

But don't fool yourself these people hate McCain because they think that McCain is liberal and they really hate Clinton and Kerry and you and me.

Here is the website that they launch the attacks

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

Note that its run by Ted Sampley

Ted Sampley is the founder and head of Vietnam Veterans against John McCain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czKN372PXdE

Her is the second part of the interview where they allege that John McCain is in cooperation with the Clintons

and is as liberal as the Clintons-- these people are nuts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSPfKPBsXWg&feature=related


As you can see from this interview on Rush Limbaugh these people are attacking McCain because he is TOO LIBERAL.


They are known liars and started all of the lies against John Kerry.

[Major Hogwash]

29. Once again, I must remind you, that not everyone agrees with the findings of that subcommittee.

So, don't assume that "everyone was accounted for", when they obviously weren't.

Government is not here to protect the thoughts of the majority, it is here to protect the thoughts of the minority.
And just because you disregard some of these people as "a splinter group" doesn't mean they didn't have valid claims for wanting to find out what happened to their loved ones.

I don't agree with your claim that Vietnam was "open and forthcoming" and did everything they could to return the bodies of those American soldiers. I don't give a damn how many interviews they had.

This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton. You keep mentioning him in your replies, yet Bill clinton had nothing to do with these people or these hearings. Period!!
This has nothing to do with John Kerry.

And damn little to do with Ted Sampley.
Who, by the by, served his country in Vietnam, honorably, I might add. He served as a Green Beret with the Army and was highly decorated for his actions in that war, himself.

So, his opinion is just as valid as John McCain's, if not more, since McCain didn't even want to talk to those people anymore. McCain didn't even want the investigation that the subcommittee had concluded to be made public, for crying out loud!!

I may not agree with Ted Sampley, but by gawd he has as much of a right to talk about this issue as anyone else since he was the one those people went to for help.
They couldn't get any help from McCain, or any of the other Republicans, so they asked for help and Ted answered the call!
That's the America way, whether you like his politics or not!



I have to tell ya, if the United States had this attitude now about soldiers serving in Iraq, that once they went missing, we would just look for them for a few years and then call it good and shut the books on the subject, there wouldn't be a volunteer Army!!

[SwampG8r]

8. this is every bit of it relevent and fair game

but the pow attached to it gives mccain the moral high ground
detach all pow references and focus on the veterans abuse and its a solid hit

the pow/mia issue is the worst part becase those families have been trapped in that dank dark cell fo 30 years now with no hope in sight

god i try not to hate anyone but i am starting to simmer over this assbag

[IndianaGreen]

34. McCain collaborated with his captors while...

Admiral Stockdale held firm.

[SwampG8r]

35. its a no win issue for obama

[LittleClarkie]

10. Dat you Ted Sampley?

I see farther down the page he attacks both McCain and Kerry for helping to open relations with Vietnam.

Some POW/MIA people are such conspiracy theorists. How do you find the remains of someone's loved ones without opening relations with that country. And yet so many in the POW/MIA movement didn't want us to open relations with Vietnam until they told us where all the POW's were, which assumed they were all still in some work camp somewhere.

I hated it when such people went after Kerry. I'll not participate as they go after McCain.

[Major Hogwash]

21. Ted is not the only one that feels this way about McCain.

The problem that many of you have is that Ted is telling the truth about McCain.
You don't like Ted, so you lump all of McCain's critics in with Ted.

That's not very liberal of you, and it's not right.

It's called "guilt by association" and it is just as wrong as claiming that anyone who criticized Bush was "not patriotic".

McCain is counting on his past relationship with Kerry for cover for some of his past disgressions.
Too bad Kerry can't cover up McCain's warmongering of the past decade!

Kerry and McCain are not on the same page when it comes to supporting the veterans of this country either.
Kerry works tirelessly to help us, while McCain votes against us every single chance he gets.

Ted Sampley is not the only veteran who dislikes McCain for being a liar and a disingenuous gasbag.
There are millions of veterans who feel the same way about McCain.
And a lot of these veterans just got back from serving in Iraq.

Yet, while McCain claims he "supports the troops" (the GOP mantra for the last 5 years) he constantly votes against getting them more medical or financial help.

[babylonsister]

13. No kidding. Wow. I'm not surprised, but shocked, I tell ya! nt

[SoCalDem]

14. Mccain was afraid of humiliating his father..and living with the shame

Military families are like no other.. The men in long-time military families spend their lives living UP to or living DOWN the military careers of their ancestors..

It's a sickness..

[old mark]

19. Mc Cain was NOT "treated gently".

Don't know where your information came from, byt the NVA was not "gentle" to anyone who was unfortunate enough to come under their power. They were and still brutal bastards and McCain's treatment as a war prisoner was in violation of any civilized standards.

I don't like the man, but I would not ever belittle what happened to him or anyone else at the hands of the North Viet communists.

They were and are pigs.

mark

[iconicgnom]

23. Was he treated worse than detainees in Gitmo and the black sites?

To learn something more about both the "american war heros" who did the bombing and the "communist pigs" who were bombed, a person might do well to read the wiki article on Operation Rolling Thunder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

an excerpt

"Before Rolling Thunder even began the North Vietnamese leadership knew what was coming. It issued a February 1965 directive to the military and the population to "maintain communication and transportation and to expect the complete destruction of the entire country, including Hanoi and Haiphong." The communist leadership declared "a people's war against the air war of destruction...each citizen is a soldier, each village, street, and plant a fortress on the anti-American battlefront." All except those deemed "truly indispensable to the life of the capital" were evacuated to the countryside. By 1967, Hanoi's population had been reduced by half.

To protect the northern economy, it was decentralized and large factories, located in the heavily-populated Red River Delta region, were broken up and scattered into caves and small villages throughout the countryside. In the more heavily-bombed southern panhandle, entire villages moved into underground tunnel complexes for the duration. Food shortages in North Vietnam became widespread, especially in the urban areas, as rice farmers went into the military or volunteered for service repairing bomb damage. When the nation's transportation system came under attack, destroyed bridges were repaired or replaced by dirt fords, ferries, and underwater and pontoon bridges. The system proved to be durable, well built, easily repaired, and practically impossible to shut down.
...
Perhaps North Vietnam's ultimate resource was its population, which was fired by nationalist zeal. During 1965, 97,000 North Vietnamese volunteered to work full time in repairing the damage inflicted by U.S. bombs. Another 370,000-500,000 worked part time. When the nation's lines of communication came under attack, railroad supply trains and truck convoys were split into smaller elements which traveled only at night. The logistical effort was supported by citizens on sampans, driving carts, pushing wheelbarrows, or man-portering supplies on their backs to keep the war effort going. They were motivated by slogans like "Each kilogram of goods...is a bullet shot into the head of the American pirates." "

End quotes.

So who were the real heros?

[iconicgnom]

24. Better to attack his incompetence than his "heroism". 894 of 899 says enough. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

30. could someone please help me understand-how

a "PRISONER" could refuse to be 'released'?

I mean- who the fuck is in control of the person? What would any 'prisoner' be able to do if the people holding them decided to release them? This makes no real sense.

If anyone asked the people at Gitmo if they 'wanted' to be released- could they honestly, really say- "NO".???? This is Mccain bullshit at its finest.

I've lost all respect for the man- he is a sad example of what insatiable ego can do to destroy a life.

[Gabi Hayes]

32. please STOP threads like this.....POW-related memes will only HURT

the narrative has been written for decades on McCain's socalled heroism

to me he's nothing but a mass murderer, whose life was saved by the very civilians whose families he KILLED the day the woman pulled him out of the water

that's another story, though

point is, this will NOT WORK

ask Wes Clark

you might as well have Obama surrogates deny that Jesus is the one and only lord, that he walked on water, turned said water into wine

it won't work

leave it alone