!@#$% -- Now some German pols are saying the NEW Berlin speech site is a Nazi symbol

[highplainsdem]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,566920,00.html

07/20/2008

BARACK IN BERLIN

Is Obama Speech Site Contaminated by Nazi Past?

Finally, Barack Obama's campaign has settled on a site for his Berlin speech. But some German politicians have now criticized his choice as being one full of Nazi-related symbolism.


Finally, it's official. Barack Obama, when he arrives in Berlin on July 24, will hold his speech at the Siegessäule monument in the heart of the city, according to an announcement made by his campaign office in Chicago on Sunday. In his speech, he will speak about the "historic US-German partnership" and about the importance of strengthening trans-Atlantic relations, according to his campaign team.

-snip-

Still, even as the issue of his speech's location has now been settled, a number of politicians in Berlin are still dissatisfied with the site. The Siegessäule -- or Victory Column -- was erected in memory of Prussia's victories over Denmark (1864), Austria (1866) and France (1870/71). The column originally stood in front of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building, but was moved by Adolf Hitler to its current location in 1939 to make way for his planned transformation of Berlin into the Nazi capital "Germania."

"The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France," the deputy leader of the Free Democrats, Rainer Brüderle, told Bild am Sonntag. He raised the question as to "whether Barack Obama was advised correctly in his choice of the Siegessäule as the site to hold a speech on his vision for a more cooperative world."

Andreas Schockenhoff of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats said, "the Siegessäule in Berlin is dedicated to a victory over neighbors who are today our European friends and allies. It is a problematic symbol."

-snip-

[jefferson_dem]

1. Please.

Is this really helpful?

[highplainsdem]

5. I'm upset that there's now criticism after the campaign decided against the Brandenburg Gate as the

site. And I'm beginning to wonder if there's any site in Berlin he could find that wouldn't have connotations some German politicians would object to.

What isn't helpful is their reaction, after the campaign chose a different site.

Are you criticizing me for posting that they're now complaining about this? Did you criticize anyone here who posted about some people having complained about the Brandenburg Gate site? Or is this once again a case where I'm being sniped at because I supported Clinton in the primaries? I'm getting very tired of this sort of thing.

[Sanity Claws]

2. Obama would take away the Nazi symbolism

Obama is everything the Nazis stood against. He is mixed race. Nazis wanted racial purity. Obama is no part Aryan yet he has excelled in everything he has done.
I think it would be a good way for Germany to cleanse the bad karma from the site.

[highplainsdem]

6. I agree.

[saltpoint]

3. The many thousands of people who will come to listen to Barack Obama

are not Nazis and they will be the ones who decide how valuable his address really is.

This is right-wing nonsense and a low-class smear-job undertaken because dense as it often is, the Right understands that Obama's campaign will score a powerful triumph with this address in Berlin.

They're trying to loosen the bolts. It likely won't work.

[Youphemism]

4. If it's that much of a "Nazi symbol," why is it still standing there?...

What a bunch of hooey. If it were truly considered some horrible artifact, it would be in a museum, not still out in public. It predates Hitler by the better part of a century -- he just moved it while redecorating.

Non-issue.

[Benhurst]

9. A statue dedicated in 1873 "predates Hitler by the better part of a century"?

[Youphemism]

14. Let's see here...

1937
-1873
-----
54

100
-54
---
46

Yup.

[Benhurst]

27. 1937? Hitler was became Chancellor on January 30,1933. He becane Dictator of Germany

on March 23, 1933. The Siegessaule was dedicted on September 2, 1873, not quite 60* years before Hitler took control of Germany.

Whether or not the monument should be considered a Nazi monument in any way whatsoever is another issue; but it predated the Nazi takeover of Germany by little more than half a century.

*Check the math in your last post-- you were off by ten years.

[Youphemism]

32. What on Earth is your point here?

54 years, 60* years? Those are both the better part of a century. Anything more than 50 years is the better part of a century.

And, by the way, none of that matters anyway. The point is that it vastly predates the Nazi era, and that is obviously the point I was making. (Though Hitler was named Chancellor in '33, that was not when the Nazi ascension began, which was pretty much the context. You could argue it was a year or two before my date -- it was chosen fairly arbitrarily.)

Anyway, none of this is worth delaying you getting to your Aspergers testing.

* (Looks like even during a math-impaired early morning, I can ballpark "the better part of a century.")

[grantcart]

7. Its a Prussian monument in a town that had few remaining historical

buildings or symbols remaining.

It is generally seen as completely non political reminder of Berlin's past and has been featured frequently in all kinds of music videos:

Cultural References

The column is featured in Wim Wenders' film Wings of Desire as being a place where angels congregate. The golden statue atop the column was featured in the music video to U2's "Stay (Faraway, So Close!)" and inspired Paul van Dyk's 1998 trance music hit, "For an Angel"; the column was also featured in his music video during the "Love Parade" in 1998. "El Ángel" in Mexico City bears a more than passing resemblance to the Berlin victory column, while both echo the earlier examples of the victory column crowned by an angel, notably the Alexander Column in Saint Petersburg.

The Victory Column opens daily and is a major tourist attraction to the city of Berlin: April-October 9.30am-6.30pm November-March 9.30am-5.30p



Design & Dimensions

Built on a base of polished red granite, the column sits on a hall of pillars with a glass mosaic designed by Anton von Werner.

The column itself consists of four solid blocks of sandstone, three of which are decorated by cannon pipes captured from the enemies of the aforementioned three wars. The fourth ring is decorated with golden garlands and was added in 1938/39 when the column was moved to its present location (see below).

The relief decoration was vandalized and removed by French forces in 1945, probably to prevent Germans from being reminded of former victories, especially the defeat of the French in 1871. It was restored for the 750th anniversary of Berlin in 1987 by the French president at that time, François Mitterrand. However, several sections remain in France.

[saltpoint]

16. THIS is a great post.

One among several, actually. You do this all the time.

Thank you for referencing Wenders' marvelous film in defense of our candidate for the presidency, who is likely in his Berlin address to blow all of Europe away. I envy the Europeans making plans at this hour with their friends to meet at this tower to hear the next U.S. president.

Great post, grantcart.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. If you walk around it the whole monument its splattered with bullet holes

From the battle of Berlin. They left them in as a reminder of what war was.

The Reichstag after its restoration has triumphant anti-German graffiti scrawled across the building's walls by Soviet soldiers who stormed the building in 1945 remain intact, as will the bullet holes left from the storming of Berlin that finally brought an end to World War 2.

"I think it has more integrity to reveal and accept the history, making it tangibly visible for present and future generations." said a spokesman on not repairing the damage.

[jefferson_dem]

8. The source who says it's a "problematic symbol" also excused the beating of a gay parliamentarian.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2035868,00.html

Dismiss this non-story for what it is.

[scarletwoman]

12. I think the bushies are putting heavy pressure on the Merkel government to diss Obama.

Right wingers scratching each other's backs.

sw

[Baclava]

10. Merkel warns Obama not to use landmark for 'electioneering'

BERLIN (AFP) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel has slammed a request by Barack Obama to give a speech this month before the Brandenburg Gate as inappropriate, her deputy spokesman said Wednesday.

The conservative leader said that while she would be pleased to meet the US Democratic presidential hopeful, it would be wrong for him to hold a "campaign rally" at the historic symbol of German unity.

"It is unusual to do electioneering abroad," spokesman Thomas Steg told reporters.

"It is unusual to hold election rallies abroad. No German candidate for high office would even think of using the National Mall (in Washington) or Red Square in Moscow for a rally because it would not be seen as appropriate."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080709/ts_alt_afp/usvoteobamadiplomacygermany_080709165528

[JackORoses]

11. is Merkel really stupid enough to think McAnus has a shot?

[Baclava]

15. I guess Merkel's afraid of appearing partisan.

The fact that almost all of Europe prefers Obama over McCain makes the whole thing only more delicate.

[Franks Wild Years]

36. Yes, this is an issue for many European leaders.

See: John Major endorsing Bush I moments before Clinton won in '92. Something which was later perceived as a considerable mistake. They'll accept US politicians endorsing *them* but they're often loathe to jeopardise relations by coming out strong for one candidate or another.

[scarletwoman]

13. So, is Berlin "contaminated by Nazi past" by having this monument on display?

I mean, come on -- you can't have it both ways. If it's a "problematic symbol", then why do the German's keep it?

The article also rightly points out that part of what's been going on with the disagreements over the site of the Obama speech has to do with internal German politics:

The exact location of Obama's speech (more...) had become a matter of intense speculation in Berlin after his campaign team originally suggested an appearance at the Brandenburg Gate.

<snip>

Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit, who is a major figure in Germany's Social Democrats, was in favor of the Brandenburg Gate site and the Obama visit quickly became yet another excuse for German politicians to fire off barbs at each other.

I think what we see here is that right wingers are the same everywhere: whining hypocrites.

sw

[Peacetrain]

17. Whether it is or whether its not..

Does not make one whit of difference. If it were, the symbolism of a bi-racial person co-opting a nazi place, is not a bad symbol either.

[thewiseguy]

18. Merkel's party is deeply afraid of Obama's speech

Cant wait until Obama gives his speech.

[WinkyDink]

38. And there it is, in a nutshell.

[Occam Bandage]

20. The Siegessaule is beautiful. If it's an embarrassing Nazi symbol, why does it still stand

in the middle of Tiergarten, viewable through the center of the Brandenburg Gate?

[Occam Bandage]

21. Wait, and for that matter, why is it the center of the yearly Loveparade?

[NYC_SKP]

22. These critics are empowering the dead Nazi leader.

All this concern serves only to perpetuate the myth of the third reich.

The tragic events have left their mark, moving the event will not change that.

The monument existed before Adolf, it would be a non-topic but for this bit of outrage.

Stirring it up, IMO.

:kick:

[Trillo]

23. Interesting reading through the comments. Why is a "symbol" of importance?

Shouldn't any place where the corporatist operates be the much more important factor? Is there anyplace where they don't? Consequently, is the emphasis on "a symbol" becomes a red herring of distraction, so the more important factors are not-recognized by the masses?

It appears that Obama is trying, by campaigning in Germany, to be a "world-class" politician, clearly this has multi-national implications and as such would seem a foreign policy statement of future intent.

As an aside, "symbols", or more precisely, trademarks, are the flags of corporations, many of whom are today extra-national. This may imply the objections to the location are minimally coming from right-wingers, and maximally, from corporations themselves.

One other question of import, what is the current-day distinction between governments and corporations as they relate to this issue? If Obama changes the location, what does that say? If he keeps it the same, what then?

[LiberalFighter]

24. Reagan spoke at the Berlin Wall -- That is communist!!

What about all the speeches at the prison camps?

[Hav]

26. And Bush spoke in the Reichstag..

Seriously, it's a non issue. It will be very hard to find any place that doesn't have some kind of history.

[WinkyDink]

39. Not precisely. He spoke NEAR the Wall:

The President spoke at 2:20 p.m. at the Brandenburg Gate. In his opening remarks, he referred to West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl. Prior to his remarks, President Reagan met with West German President Richard von Weizsacker and the Governing Mayor of West Berlin Eberhard Diepgen at Schloss Bellevue, President Weizsacker's official residence in West Berlin. Following the meeting, President Reagan went to the Reichstag, where he viewed the Berlin Wall from the East Balcony.
http://www.reaganlibrary.com/reagan/speeches/wall.asp

[annabanana]

25. and I'm sure "Some German Pols" miss Hitler too...

some people say this is manufactured outrage designed for no reason except to make Obama's visit less magnificent...

[highplainsdem]

28. IHT story on this, emphasizing the objections are from "conservative and opposition politicians"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/20/europe/berlin.php

[NattPang]

29. If that was the case, he might as well stay out of Germany alltogether.

after all, the entire country can be said to have a Nazi past. :eyes:

[scarletwoman]

31. Yes there IS that, isn't there. As I said, rightwingers are the same everywhere: whining hypocrites.

What a bunch of nonsense!

sw

[vaberella]

30. If his talk is cancelled because of so much non-sense...

Germany and the people of Europe might actually take to the streets to protest.

[flamingdem]

33. More Controversy = More Free Publicity for Barack!

:toast: skol!

[Alcibiades]

34. Now the CDU hates the Siegessäule?

If the Siegessäule is so problematic, why don't they tear it down? I never heard anyone from the CDU complain about it before. If you wanted to tear down everything in Berlin that had any Nazi connection, you'd tear down everything built before 1945.

This is laughable. The Siegessäule is a symbol of militarism--it's adorned with captured cannon, and is topped by Nike. So what? It also symbolizes the unification of Germany.

One thing that is for sure for me is that it's not a Nazi monument. It's clear now that the CDU folks will object to Obama speaking anywhere in Berlin. If they really want to tie themselves so closely to Bush, that's fine by me. Let them invite McCain to Munich if they really have a problem with it.

[bklyncowgirl]

35. I think it would be hard to find any historic monmument or place in Berlin ...

I think it would be hard to find any historic monmument or place in Berlin that did not have some Nazi associations.

The Nazis played on Germany's glorious past and used these monments very effectively. Unless they decide to stick Barack on an airport runway for his speech it's pretty much unavoidable.

[Alcibiades]

40. And even then...

Tempelhof Airport, which is due to close this October, might be seen as an effective place to celebrate German-American friendship, given its history in the Berlin Airlift and its subsequent use as an American base. Of course, the Nazis also used it to assemble aircraft during the war, so it would also be disqualified under the grounds of having a "Nazi past."

[WinkyDink]

37. Hey! They're lucky it isn't Bitburg! Way to remind the world of your hideous past, German politicos!

Not that we needed reminding....

[Mass]

41. Well, the Siegessäule is a symbol of war. So, it is a weird place to make a speech about cooperation

Hitler is not the matter, but it is a symbol of Bismark and whoever chose this place is an idiot. However, I doubt it will bother anybody except those who want to be bothered by something Obama did.

[Thothmes]

42. JMO

the only victory monument that should be allowed in Berlin is one with the Sickle and Hammer