Please, stop pretending that bitching about Obama on DU makes you a heroic revolutionary patriot

[WildEyedLiberal]

I see so many posts here defending the need to "criticize" Obama that use the most over-the-top self-congratulatory hyperbole.

"WHO WILL DEFEND OUR FREEDOMS IF WE DON'T SPEAK UP????"

"WE NEED TO HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE!! NO EXCEPTIONS - OUR DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE!!"

"STOP TRYING TO STIFLE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WE ARE LIBERALS, NOT ROBOTS! WE DON'T LOCKSTEP LIKE REPUBLICANS DO - WE CRITICIZE OBAMA BECAUSE WE ARE FULL OF FIERCE PATRIOTIC FERVOR, A STRIKINGLY INDEPENDENT INTELLECT, AND UNTOUCHABLE PRINCIPLES!"

Oh, PLEASE, already. You are POSTING ON A MESSAGE BOARD. You aren't "defending freedom." You aren't "saving democracy." You aren't doing anything dangerous or daring or gallant or revolutionary or heroic. You're posting on an anonymous online messageboard. America will not be saved by what you post. Your online criticism of Obama will do absolutely nothing for our democracy. All it does is make it abundantly clear that Obama - like every single other Democratic candidate of recent memory - is, unsurprisingly, not good enough for the partisan left who will attempt to undermine him at every turn, just like they undermined Gore and Kerry.

You say you don't "march in lockstep." Well good for you. You are so much more impressively independent and strong-willed and therefore admirable than people who don't nitpick every fucking thing Obama does. Actually, what you are doing is attempting to silence any criticism of your endless negativity by accusing your detractors of being blind party hacks who want you to assimilate into the unthinking collective. How ironic.

Oh, speaking of people "stifling" your "freedom of speech": Freedom of speech means you have the right to say damn near anything you want without being locked up. No one on DU is going to throw you in jail for criticizing Obama. Believe it or not, they, too, have the freedom of speech to tell you that you're being divisive and unhelpful. You can argue that they're wrong, or you can argue that you're right, but "freedom of speech" has fuck all to do with it. Talking about freedom of speech on a censored private messageboard in which conservatives aren't even allowed to participate is rich, anyway, but the irony seems lost on most of you. Nope, anyone who thinks you ought to STFU with the constant negativity is STIFLING your FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Get a grip. Yes, you have the "right" to criticize Obama. No one ever said you didn't, Christ, so stop pretending that you're being persecuted.

You know, this post isn't even about whether or not your criticisms of Obama are valid. Depending on what your political views are, I'm sure many of these posts are quite sincere. What it IS about is people nailing themselves to the cross and proclaiming themselves to be True American Patriots Bravely Speaking Truth to Power through the valiant and harrowing act of bitching about Barack Obama on an online message board. Please, just get over yourselves, and if you MUST criticize Obama, stop pretending that you're some courageous Tom Paine and accept that other Democrats also have the "freedom of speech" to tell you you're wrong.

[Lord Helmet]

1. I'll K & R this.

[bjobotts]

245. I'll k&R this...I'll bet you K&R'd "My country right or wrong" too.

[bjobotts]

247. Screamed bloody murder when Bush did it, but now Obama supports it so it's ok

[sui generis]

415. because our tyranny is good for you

it's only bad tyranny if it's the other guy. :silly:

Yeah, DU has its share of wannabe petty tyrants, and faith-based anything is just another magic wand or scepter.

What. Ever.

[Scairp]

300. I guess I haven't seen that

But then again, I don't read much beyond LBN anymore, and the Top Ten each week, but personally I really like Obama. My support for HRC had nothing to do with any personal feelings I had or have about Obama. But I'm afraid. I'm afraid that our racist sheeple voters in this country will not elect him, regardless of what a complete dickhead McCain is. I also have issues with his experience in Washington and the fact that he hasn't been on the national radar very long at all. My feeling was that Hillary should have been the nominee with Obama as the VP. She has the experience to do the job at this point given what is going on in our country right now. I think that she is more electable than Obama when is comes to the general election. And after serving eight years as VP, which would have given a lot of voters who have problems with Obama now a chance to get used to him, he would have won the presidency in a landslide, no matter who the Repuke candidate would be at that time. That's the bottom line, I'm afraid. If Senator McMaverick Straight-talker of bullshit is actually elected, we are doomed. I have grown children and stepchildren, but I also have a three year old, and I want her to have a future, and if the policies in place now are continued under another Republican administration, I don't see that any of us have a future that is anything but horrible. My husband is British, and at this point he doesn't want to move back there. I'm trying to convince him that IF McCain is elected we've got to get out of this country. If not Britain then another European country. He works for an international corporation that is headquartered in a European country, so I'm hoping that if things start to go really bad here, he will agree to pack up and leave. I think that any kind of nitpicking at Obama right now is really born of the same fear I have expressed here. I so hope that I am wrong, I want to be wrong, but I have a sick feeling that Obama is going to lose the general election.

[Hekate]

301. I think the only way Obama will lose is the same way Gore "lost"--dirty machines, vote suppression,

...outright theft. And I am VERY much afraid of that. I am also deeply afraid of a replay of 1968.

Aside from all that Obama ought to win by a landslide, because McCain is such an awful candidate it's mind-boggling.

I know how you feel about wanting to leave if McCain takes the Oval Office. My husband and I are too old now. It would be up to our grown kids, and they don't see the situation the way we do. I am more afraid of exiling myself someplace where I won't see my family again than I am of trying to ride out a disaster here.

Hekate

[Scairp]

395. Maybe

And yes, the media's War on Gore had a great influence, perhaps the greatest influence, on that election. I am not sure how this one is going to play out with those media morons who have the audacity to call themselves journalists but are nothing more than overpaid lapdogs who do their corporate master's bidding. And just because McMaverick is a hopeless idiot doesn't mean he can't be elected. Look no further than the thing that has been squatting in the White House for almost eight years. Now, it seems he wants to go out with a bang rather than a whimper by starting up with Iran. My instinct to flee is as strong as it's ever been, but we too must, at least for the time being, ride it out. I'm sure that if things got really, really bad here my husband would agree to go live elsewhere, at least temporarily.

[Occam Bandage]

2. K. R. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[DeschutesRiver]

171. Another thanks

been thinking the same thing.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bjobotts]

229. Gore and Kerry undermined themselves by running to "the middle"

[bjobotts]

230. the "MIddle" is enabling Bush. The dems need to stand on the line drawn in the sand

[Occam Bandage]

288. I like how you couldn't even wait for anyone to reply.

[DeschutesRiver]

296. Some people are legends in their own minds

and they get used to having conversations all by themselves.

This is happening alot at DU right now - people who aren't looking for discourse or interested in debate; some don't even appear to understand what is at stake in this election. Cheap shots like that just mean they don't have an argument worth putting forth - kind of a McCain move.

Hoping it is temporary insanity that will pass closer to the fall.

[JNelson6563]

380. No shit. Hysteric hyperbole anyone?

I always crack up at those who run around a thread posting repeatedly (ad nauseum) carrying on hysterically.

Julie

[JNelson6563]

381. Oops. Dupe deleted.

:shrug:

[shagsak]

342. welcome to ignore!

Anyone who makes a habit of replying to themselves is obviously out for attention. Sorry boutcha!

[Shoelace]

346. pfft! Big Oil, corporate media enable Bush, NOT the middle class

well the list is a bit longer than the two mentioned but you get the point.

Obama may not be perfect but he's the only game in town if we want to stop the senseless war in Iraq anytime before 100 years, so get off your high horse and fight for those who have the courage to change what they can, the serenity to accept the things they can't change and the wisdom to know the difference!!!

[lark]

374. EXACTLY as Obama is now doing

with ducking for cover with FISA and letting Dodd and Feingold get out in front of him. Shameful.

[rhett o rick]

322. How admirable that you hold principles in such high esteem. But come November

principles won't be on the ballot. To participate you'll have to choose a person.

[sudopod]

325. I guess we just don't love America as much as you do.

LOL

[lostnotforgotten]

3. Ok Obama Appeaser - What Constitutes Defending Democracy In Your Eyes?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

[WildEyedLiberal]

9. "Obama appeaser"? If you hate the Democratic presidential candidate that much, don't post here

Because you officially do NOT enjoy "unlimited freedom of speech" on Skinner's messageboard, of which the rules unequivocally state that all posters MUST support the Democratic party's candidates.

If you really think that pissing on DU "defends democracy" and you have no idea what else to do, then you're a complete waste of time.

[lostnotforgotten]

22. Life Long Progressive Liberal - I Can Choose To Not Vote In The Election

Obama has just given me the reason to do so.

If you enjoy being spied upon by your government (FISA cave-in), then so be it.

I for one do not.

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. I don't expect to see you post at DU again then

You just broke DU's rules by stating you won't vote for Obama. Frankly, I wish more of the self-righteous uber "patriotic" hang-wringers would come out of the closet like you and admit outright that they want McCain to win so Skinner could start taking care of business. If you don't see what an unmitigated disaster a McCain presidency would be, then you don't belong on DU, and I don't give a rat's ass how "progressive" you are.

[lostnotforgotten]

I Said I Can Choose To Not Vote For Obama - He Can Win Progressives

Back if he chooses - so far he is losing.

[johnaries]

100. So you speak for All Progressives?

I'm a Progressive, and he has my vote. Start speaking for yourself, and stop deluding yourself.

[LynneSin]

299. wait, I'm a progressive - when did we vote for you as our spokesperson??

You speak for YOURSELF - not for progressives or liberals. Believe it or not alot of us support Obama and plan to vote for him and some of us (not myself) realize that John McCain is NOT an option - not voting or voting 3rd party like the Green enables a McCain victory.

Please, next time speak for yourself.

[redqueen]

328. Win progressives back?

:rofl:

When did he lose them?




Enjoy your stay.

[27inCali]

403. NO REAL PROGRESSIVE WOULD STAND BY

WHILE AN ASSHOLE LIKE MCCAIN ASSUMED POWER, REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER FLAWS HIS OPPONENT MIGHT POSESS.

[natrat]

123. great some freak on the internet tells someone else to go away

there will be lots of disillusioned folks when this is all over

[Jakes Progress]

137. So Skinner has changed his name?

Skinner, when did you change your name to WEL?

Emote much?

[Zachstar]

144. Shows what kind of lack of education you have. He never said he would not.

[bjobotts]

233. Geez get a grip you really have your self righteous head up your ass

[bjobotts]

235. You can support Obama as better than McCain and still criticize him when he's wrong

[lark]

377. True,

but you said you would not vote for him - so which is it? I'm curious.

[bjobotts]

248. Should say the same thing about you blindboy,"My democrat right or wrong"

[bjobotts]

250. I wanna see what other sems think not someone telling them not to post here

[styersc]

272. So much for your freedom of speech assertion.

[mrbluto]

307. So it's against the rules to say you have a choice?

He says "I can choose to not vote for Obama"

Didn't say he wouldn't - just said that was a choice he could make.

Is that a violation?

Then he says "Obama gave me a reason"

Did he say he wouldn't vote for Obama? Did he say that was a decisive reason?

Should people add up the pros and cons and make a decision, or should they dispense with that?

Someone says "Vote for me." is it permissable to say "I will so long as you do X", or "promise to do X", or "support X like you said you would.", or is it impermissible to say so?

Should our support for Obama be unconditional?

Even if it is unconditional is it impermissible to even ask questions?

or state disappointment?

Is it ok to vary one's enthusiasm for Obama based on any criteria, or should we all maintain a high level of enthusiasm no matter what happens?

Please let me know.

I'm interested in what sort of supporter you think it is my duty to be.

[blondeatlast]

94. Get. The Fuck. Over. Yourself. Sheesh. nt

[Politicub]

120. Yeah, that's progressive alright

Taking an action (not voting) that works in the GOP's favor. It's up to you if you want to delude yourself into feeling like you're promoting a progressive agenda. I tend to think holding Obama's feet to the fire once he's elected is a better choice, since he will more likely have a sympathetic ear to progressive causes vs. McCain.

But I know you'll argue with me, so I don't even know why I'm wasting the pixels writing to you in the first place.

[TreasonousBastard]

157. then go do your "choosing" somewhere else. n/t

[Cheap_Trick]

174. Enjoy President McCain then snapperhead

and don't bring your sorry fucking ass back in here bitching about him.

[cliffordu]

201. Need a whaaaaaaaambulance??

<img src="" />

[World Citizen]

210. First things first

I guess I feel that the threat to the world is much more serious than you do.

For me it's as if, there is a giant meteor heading for earth and we have only one device to divert it, but you want to argue that maybe we shouldn't use it because the company that built it doesn't give enough health care insurance to their employees.

[redqueen]

329. Well said!

Not sure how long you've been here... but since your post count is so low... I'll just go ahead and say welcome to DU!

:hi:

[ooglymoogly]

226. Now that is a wrongheaded Idea. Granted Obama

has taken a lot of the wind out of our sails, but everyone who can run, walk or crawl to the polls must do so and vote for Obama. A non vote that should have gone to Obama, is a vote for McCain. Lets wait until Olbermann's special comment on monday night. He may have someplace to hang our hats.

[lark]

375. Yes, you could do that

but is that the best course for you, your family or this nation? I am not an Obama fan, he's just the last man standing who's not a complete right wing tool. Would you rather have all war all the time, or some middle of the road guy? I'll take middle of the road any day over non-stop needless aggression. Would you rather have more availability at lesser cost for health care or less availability at much greater cost?

Yes, I am totally pissed about Obama and his totally craven actions on FISA, but nothing could make me sit at home in Nov. Well, I guess BHO could come out in favor of Iran war and then I would sit home, while I was researching other countries to move to.

Barack is the best option we have, so unless he really, really, really, screws up - I hope you will reconsider. Hold your nose if needed, but please don't stay home, vote anyway.

[bjobotts]

232. "Obama appeaser" is a statement not a condemnation or smear

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. How about NOT FUCKING LETTING JOHN MCCAIN GET ELECTED!! nt

[lostnotforgotten]

17. How About Holding Obama's Feet To The Fire Like We Did With Hillary

Appeasement, I am not in the mood for appeasement any longer!

If you want to hold your nose while you vote, then so be it.

I am tired of being a progressive liberal and having to feel appeased each and every day because the Democratic party will show no courage.

Where is all the courage that that Obama talks about regularly now?

[jenmito]

27. What do you LIKE about Obama? Are you an Obama supporter?

[WildEyedLiberal]

31. Nope, see reply #22

I certainly hope such blatant anti-Obama trolling is taken care of, per DU's election year rules.

[lostnotforgotten]

37. FISA Cave In - Bill Gates As Continuing SECDEF - How Is This Trolling?

eom

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. You know good and well that not supporting the Dem nominee is trolling

I am not replying to you any more because you just want an excuse to attack Obama and I'm not giving it to you.

[lostnotforgotten]

49. Obama Can Win Me Back, But He Will Have To Move Left To Do So

eom

[blondeatlast]

77. Speaking of "lockstep" can you come up with your own terms? God, you guys are tiresome.

I like a challenge--and I CAN think for myself.

[WildEyedLiberal]

87. Isn't it ironic?

"Lockstep! Lockstep! Lockstep!"

DO they even know what it means? Do they not grasp the irony that bleating the same tired catchphrases over and over is not exactly a sign of independent thought?

[blondeatlast]

91. I've been political wonking for 30 years; the only ones I really dislike are the irony challenged;

and this one has it in a dump truck.

[Chulanowa]

206. This is your first time watching a general election, isn't it?

During the primaries, each candidate of all parties tries to assert the cores of their pwn party - the hard right, progressive left, fringe interests, etc. Then in the general, they reach out to the other party's bases to try to undermine party support and win some points for themselves.

Interesting point to this is that McCain is not doing this - he's staying hard right pro war elitist freakshow. Which means that Obama, by making small gestures, can pull the center-right to our side for this election - or at least, get them so annoyed with McCain that they stay home.

Once in office, presidents have a strong trend of going back to what they campaigned on during the primaries. You have little to worry about.

[Miss Chybil]

266. Candidates of both parties move towards the middle in the general

election. It provides them their best chance of winning and in this game winning IS everything.

[27inCali]

404. If you can look at McCain and still needing winning over

you're a FUCKING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. It's Robert Gates, genius. At least get the trolling right when you do it. nt

[jenmito]

42. Thanks. He should be TSed. n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

52. Ah, We Are Now All Lockstep And No Criticism Is Allowed

Some democracy we have here when legitimate issues are raised about the policies of the presumptive nominee.

[jenmito]

57. You said you're not going to VOTE for the Dem. nominee. Voicing concern/criticism is one thing...

Saying you won't vote for him is another.

[lostnotforgotten]

63. He Has Time Change And I Will Monitor His Positions

So far he has let me down - especially on FISA.

[jenmito]

73. Do you have even ONE post in support of Obama?

[lostnotforgotten]

74. No - I Avoided The Primary Wars!

eom

[jenmito]

76. I'm talking about since he became the nominee-OUR nominee.

[jenmito]

86. kick for response

[blondeatlast]

89. He had to go back to "ProgressivePurity.com" for ammunition. I was an idealist too, way back

before we had the internets...

Every generation has 'em and they are so damn obvious--and irony challenged.

[jenmito]

149. I guess so!

Funny how these people disappear when questions are asked.

[WildEyedLiberal]

59. HAHAHA

You are SUCH a perfect example of my OP and you are too wrapped up in yourself to begin to grasp the irony. Priceless!

[lostnotforgotten]

66. And You Are SO Focused On Your Dialectic That You Cannot See Others Arguments

eom

[johnaries]

104. Talk about the pot calling the kettle....

You are the one who refuses to see other's arguments. You re the one calling for everyone to follow you in lockstep. "I am a Liberal Progressive" indeed! As if you think that anyone who thinks differently from you cannot be truly Liberal OR Progressive.

BTW, having a "Cabinent of Rivals" is a very Progressive idea - as opposed to a cabinent of Yes Men as BushCo had.

If you want to do something, then do something. But then don't whine and dry when others don't do what you want them to.

[Janeite]

337. Off topic, but

I Like How You Capitalize Every Word In Your Subject Line.

[blondeatlast]

67. Indeed! This is a flameout worth wattching! nt

[blondeatlast]

64. "Lockstep." Ooh, I'ma skeered... nt

[bjobotts]

240. Yeah support Hoyer and Rockefeller too.And if Cheney says hes a dem vote for him

[bjobotts]

283. Cause we vote personalities here and not principles. Hell we'd support toture if it meant dem presid

[bjobotts]

284. Especially if Obama said we should reconsider..what ever he says, aslong as he gets presdent

[Alexander]

303. Talking to yourself again? You might want to seek help for that.

[sharp_stick]

314. Dude you really like to hear yourself type huh?

It took me forever to get to 1000 posts, you, probably a week.

[shagsak]

344. Everytime I hear the word Lockstep,

I think of "Achey Breaky heart".
I can't believe you guys are all in lockstep,
"Don't tell my heart, my achey breaky heart..."

Then I laugh. Then I cry cause I realize we are being sabotaged.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

146. *snort*

:-)

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Danger Mouse]

176. DU isn't a democracy, it's a PRIVATE MESSAGE BOARD.

[lostnotforgotten]

32. I Was An Obama Supporter Until Two Things Occurred

1) The FISA Cave - IN!

2) The news that he is seriously considering keeping Robert Gates as SECDEF.

Both items now have me convinced that he is a centrist poser at best.

[jenmito]

38. Then you shouldn't be here. n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

45. So Legitimate Criticism Of Obama Policies Is Not Allowed At DU

If you think I am tough then you are in for a real surprise as the Repugs go into attack mode.

My concerns are legitimate in the context of public policy.

[jenmito]

53. When you say you're not going to vote for the Dem. nominee, you don't belong here. n/t

[bjobotts]

243. Yes it is.We air our discussions out not blindly support people. We support principles not personali

[WillParkinson]

Because someone disagrees with a candidate

Does NOT mean they are not a progressive. And it's up to Skinner and the rest to say whether or not someone belongs here. Not me. Not you. If you feel that we don't belong here because we won't just fall to our knees for Mr. Obama then, please, feel free to alert and let the powers that be make their decision.

[WildEyedLiberal]

54. Too many "progressives" forget that this is a DEMOCRATIC message board

See the url? It's called DEMOCRATIC Underground, not "Progressive Underground." "Progressives" are welcome AS LONG AS THEY SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT. Skinner has made this ABUNDANTLY clear time after time after time, so I can only conclude that certain instigators pretend to not understand this rule so they can continue to sow discord and antipathy towards our nominee.

[lostnotforgotten]

61. Obama Has Time Change And I Will Support Him If He Does

Are we all to be in perfect agreement with his shifting policies - ie Flip Flopping like he did on FISA?

[TreasonousBastard]

161. You do realize that no one here, much less Obama himself,...

cares whether you support him or not.

You exist here merely as weightless electrons clanging about a monitor and as such have no power or influence, as do we all. So it would be best if you left this place in peace so the rest of us can discuss what we are doing to help get Obama elected.

[WillParkinson]

407. My dear TreasonousBastard...

You do realize that what you've just said can be attributed to anyone here, even yourself?

[TreasonousBastard]

416. Yes, of course, which is why...

I rarely stand on a soapbox and make demands on internet forums.

[WillParkinson]

65. From Dictionary.com

dem·o·crat·ic Audio Help /ˌdɛməˈkrætɪk/ Pronunciation Key -
–adjective 1. pertaining to or of the nature of democracy or a democracy.
2. pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all: democratic treatment.
3. advocating or upholding democracy.
4. (initial capital letter) Politics. a. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Democratic party.
b. of, pertaining to, or belonging to the Democratic-Republican party.


Please note #2 - Social equality for all. Mr. Obama has already said he disagrees with gay marriage. For me this is one of the larger issues in this election.

I belong to the Democratic party. I want rights for all. And I feel THAT is progressive.

And, as I said, if you feel that I do not belong here then please feel free to alert on me and let the Mods decide.

[lostnotforgotten]

69. Hear, Hear - Social Equity For All!

eom

[blondeatlast]

84. You are so irony challenged I can't help but make sport of you. Sheesh. nt

[WildEyedLiberal]

90. You know good and well that "Democratic" is capital D as in the party

I didn't say you had to agree with every goddamn thing Obama says or does. My OP isn't even about that - it's about the people who pretend that they're some kind of courageous martyrs for justice because they post on a message board. No, REAL martyrs for justice are out there in the real world putting their jobs, careers, freedom, reputation, and even lives on the line to work for change. They don't have time to sit around and bitch on DU.

I don't know whether you belong here or not. You are here, so you must think you do, and you said earlier that you were planning to vote for Obama, so I guess that means you do. Please reread my OP - in fact, I explicitly said that no one is trying to "stifle" anyone's opinion. It's not even really POSSIBLE, unless, of course, you violate an actual DU rule and Skinner or the mods take action. What I am just sick and tired of is the self-proclaimed 'true progressive' crowd constantly acting like persecuted prisoners of conscience because other people on DU tell them to STFU.

[WillParkinson]

97. You said...

""Progressives" are welcome AS LONG AS THEY SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT. Skinner has made this ABUNDANTLY clear time after time after time, so I can only conclude that certain instigators pretend to not understand this rule so they can continue to sow discord and antipathy towards our nominee."

One can support a candidate and still speak against him or her. What you consider to be discord and antipathy may be considered by some to be trying to open eyes to their way of seeing things. I will not say that EVERYONE is doing that. Some may very well be trying to do as you describe. But telling people to STFU (as you say) IS persecuting people and trying to stifle dissent.

[WildEyedLiberal]

107. It's usually pretty obvious who the shit-stirrers are

When certain posters establish a firm track record of constantly carping, sniping, and sneering at Obama repeatedly, it's pretty safe to assume that their motives are suspect. And I think everyone else on DU has every right - (again with that word, people have the "right" to say whatever they want, no one is trying to make criticism of Obama illegal) - to tell them to STFU.

Honestly, I just roll my eyes if anyone claims that they're being "persecuted" on a message board. No, persecution is losing your job, or being harassed everywhere you go, or being arbitrarily arrested. Persecuted is NOT having a bunch of people disagree with you and tell you to shut up on an anonymous message board. It's this such over the top rhetoric that I'm so opposed to; this idea that people are living dangerously, putting it all on the line for their "freedom of speech" or whatever. Give me a break. My point about this being Democratic Underground is that such people cannot seriously expect that constantly bitching about the Democratic nominee will not meet with stiff resistance. It is therefore disingenuous of them to claim that they are being "stifled" when the mission statement of the board makes it clear that we are to unite behind the Dem nominee. It would be as preposterous as me going to free republic, trashing McCain, and then howling that they are persecuting me when they pile on.

[mrbluto]

334. Do you have a list ? - I'd love to see it.

Since it's obvious it should be easy to make a list.

Let's see a list.

Doesn't have to be complete. Give us 10 or 20.

I'll check back and see if you can put some evidence behind your assertions.

By the way - if I'm on that list I'd like you to point out a single negative thing I've said about Obama since he was recognized as the presumptive nominee.

Do a little googling - should be easy enough - if what you say has any merit.

I expect I won't be hearing back from you.

[DaDooRonRon]

164. An interesting line in your response

"REAL martyrs for justice are out there in the real world putting their jobs, careers, freedom, reputation, and even lives on the line to work for change"

Like Cindy Sheehan perhaps?

Ann Wright?

Medea Benjamin?

A socialist (gasp!) friend of mine whose "justice arrest" sheet is longer than my arm but who wouldn't vote mainstream if you held a gun to her head?


Are these folks examples of who you mean, or do all these REAL martyrs for justice need to have a (D) next to them?

I mean, like is Joe Biden a REAL martyr, or just someone who, you know, martyrs himself at the altar of Visa and MasterCard?

[NorthCarolina]

312. To the contrary

you are exactly the mindset that DOES belong on a Democratic site like this because you are a true Democrat.

[NorthCarolina]

85. Isn't the Democratic Party the party of "Progressives" a.k.a. the "Progressive Party"?

or do we really just have two "Conservative Political Parties" and the "Progressives" have no political party? Please clarify.

[DaDooRonRon]

136. True progressives have many choices

"Party-firsters" have only one.

The "party-firsters" cause the damage but always blame the outsiders.

It's weird logic, but they swear by it.

True progressives, of course, swear AT it. :)

[Joe Fields]

173. Skinner has also stated that deserved criticism is acceptable.

If it weren't we would be no better than free republic, which is what you and many "Wild -eyed obama syncophants are trying to turn this place into.

I'll say what's on my mind when I feel like it and let Skinner decide. I've been here for many many years. But if people like you take this place over, then Skinner won't have to jerk my ticket. I'll pull it myself.

[Breeze54]

362. You're wrong, WEL! -DU Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals...

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives.

Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here
are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[DaDooRonRon]

131. Why?

Because the poster can think for him/herself and doesn't march in Democratic lockstep?

Oops, forgot - NOBODY does that here.

People make it a point to say they don't march in lockstep, all the while condemning anyone who may not vote Democratic this time around, kicking Cindy Sheehan to the curb, and moaning about anyone who has taken the time to research Obama's positions and come to the realization that he is the mother of all centrists and is dragging the PINOS (progressives in name only) along for the mother of all wrong-way donkey rides.

You need a REALLY big dump truck for some folks around here. :rofl:

[bjobotts]

261. Neither should you if you think dems are lemmings. Obama better than McCain

but doesn't make him right when he aids to turn America into a police state. Quit blindly supporting personalities and support the principles they are supposed to stand for. When they don't ...call them on it...don't say oh, it's ok if you do it.

[redqueen]

332. So WHAT if he's a poser?

Really.... so what?

What's your alternative?

Let McCain get in there? Cause that'll really show em?

[TBF]

340. "Was" indicates past tense. You no longer support our democratic nominee?

[27inCali]

405. He was always a centrist

really made a big point of it numerous times through out the primaries...

did you miss that or something?

because a lot of us were supporting him because he seemed like a guy with progressive leanings but enough of a centrist vibe to pull some more of the center-right people (I call them California Republicans) over to us.

[blondeatlast]

30. The Op wasn't addressing you specifically, but damn you fit the bill nicely!

Little polish on that cross, your Holiness?

[lostnotforgotten]

35. Funny You Don't Know Me Yet, Seem Convinced That You Do

Ahh, I forget, everyone at DU is clairvoyant.

[blondeatlast]

169. Damn right I am. Put that thing down, you don't know where it's been! nt

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. Don't you love the people who let you know how much purer and more virtuous they are than you?

"Well! Maybe YOU are okay with the government destroying your freedoms, but *I* am not! I will therefore help John McCain get elected while you ignorant sheep vote in lockstep."

[lostnotforgotten]

40. Let's See - The Democratic Party And Its Nominee Speak As If They Care

About such freedoms.

When given a chance they prove that they do not.

On this topic how are they any different than the Repugs?

I though we were all about change we could believe in!

[jenmito]

47. I doubt you were EVER about "change we could believe in." n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

58. I Have Always Been About Change That Benefits All

I am not sure that the slogan is appropriate for the presumptive nominee.

[jenmito]

82. So up 'til this FISA vote, you supported him? Do you have ANY posts to back that up if so?

[WildEyedLiberal]

110. *crickets*

Unsurprising...

[jenmito]

150. Yup-just as I expected.

:hi:

[Faygo Kid]

127. Thank you, jenmito, for this exchange on a Sunday.

It's greatly appreciated.

I have your back.

[jenmito]

148. No problemo, faygokid!

My pleasure. And thanks! :hi:

[Faygo Kid]

153. I smell a rat today.

Many anti-Obama, pro-Hillary posters who disappeared have shown up again today on DU, as a group. I don't believe in coincidences.

You're doing a great job, and thank you for it.

[jenmito]

156. So do I...

And a search of the poster I was responding to showed NO positive posts about Obama, so it's not true (IMO) that s/he just turned against Obama because of the FISA bill.

Thanks! :)

[tomp]

181. and some who have never been "supporters" of either are still here...

...telling the truth.

[jenmito]

190. And they shouldn't be here if they don't support OUR nominee. n/t

[sui generis]

414. it's not black and white

anti-Obama pro-Hillary - I call crap.

I want Obama to be a better candidate. If the best some people can do is claim that we're pro-Hillary (durrrr? newsflash, primaries are over), I'd have to retort that the Followers of Obama are here to make sure nobody disagrees with Obama even if he puts a steaming turd on his forhead and calls it macaroni.

Sorry, Obama can do better, and I certainly want him to.

[bjobotts]

263. I still support him as better than McCain, but call him out when he flip flops on FISA

[bjobotts]

265. This is exactly what supporters did with Bush the compassionate conservative who now tortures

[lark]

379. What if you always thought Obama was a centrist?

His craven FISA dive just proves what I always said, he's so middle of the road, he's the solid line down the middle. He's no more left wing than HRC. Thing is, will compromising his principals do him any good, or just make him even less attractive to independents? I think he is shooting himself in the foot with this, and it makes me very sad to see him acting just like all the other pols in Washington DC.

There are times when I really like him, am awed by his brilliance, then there are times like this when I think he's a lightweight and not to be trusted. At all times I think he's better than McBush 111.

[blondeatlast]

46. Thank God He's here, it reminds me to take my Clorox ablutions today! nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Appeasement.....hmm....where have I heard that word several times?

Oh yeah, from RW assclowns in the media!

Fuck that shit.

[AZBlue]

98. So you won't be voting for Obama?

Why are you here? To express your concern?

[Danger Mouse]

170. Do you do stand-up?

[TBF]

184. Why is everything still about Hillary? Please let's move on... we've

got a great democrat to elect. And we've got lots of work to do.

[NBachers]

221. Will ya quit'cher bellyachin'?

[cui bono]

227. Hold his feet to the fire AFTER we get him elected.

And if you are that angry I hope you are letting Hoyer, Pelosi and Reid know about it. Have you? Tha tbill never had to see the light of day but for them allowing it.

[rhett o rick]

323. I agree with you. Hold Obama's feet to the fire, BUT after the election. It is destructive to argue

now about his positions.

[redqueen]

331. "I am tired of being a progressive liberal and having to feel appeased each and every day... "

Do you know that doesn't even make sense?


"Where is all the courage that that Obama talks about regularly now?"

Do you not understand that Obama has to campaign for moderate and independent votes? He should have every Democratic and liberal vote IN THE BAG.

[bjobotts]

238. We won't and we won't let Obama turn into him either.

[johnaries]

93. "Obama appeaser"?

I think your true colors are starting to show. And they aren't looking Blue to me.

[Danger Mouse]

177. All you need is a little red nose and some oversized shoes...and your costume will be complete!

[JI7]

191. funny, you are the exact type she was writing about

[cui bono]

231. Please define "Obama Appeaser".

I think you are getting it as wrong as Bush did.

How did that poster appease Obama? And what are Obama's objectives that are so awful that they should not be appeased?

[Damian the LHP]

365. Gee, you're sounding kinda Rethug today.

This is pathetic.

[globalvillage]

4. Hey there WEL

:yourock:

[WildEyedLiberal]

15. Heya lady

Thanks :)

:hi:

[FrenchieCat]

5. I'm still waiting for those patriotic "hold his feet to the fire" souls

have said about John McCain, who's more than just wrong on all of the issues.

I have yet to see the evidence that these "concerned for the freedom of speech and the 4th Amendment" folks have ever said anything negative about what John McCain believes. I have asked some of them, and thus far the response has been NADA. None.

[Joe Fields]

23. And I'm still waiting for you to logically refute the premise of my post.

Instead, I get the classic switch. You never addressed the premise of my post, and you probably won't.

[FrenchieCat]

41. I already posted my disagreement with Obama on this issue.....

and also the reasons why I believe that Obama is not the only player,
and the fact this "outrage" about a bill that will pass no matter what,
has become about Obama and not about civil liberties.

Porportionality and reasonability are virtues that I practice.

Now, where are your McCain threads, cause I have yet to get anything from you other than to search for myself. I have, and I haven't found anything of note. Maybe you can help me on that?

Here are my threads on Obama's decision starting 9 days ago. I let go about 2 days in....because I had made my point......and I'm not stupid enough to believe that ragging on Obama nonstop is going to stop that bill once it is on the floor. In other words, I'm not dilussional.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6400385

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6400838

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6390859

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6395674

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6391042

http://www.opednews.com/articles/FISA---Obama-can-choose-to-by-FrenchieCat-080621-624.html

[Joe Fields]

178. Good god, answer the question.

reading comprehension problems?

[niyad]

6. on the other hand, questioning some of his remarks and actions doesn't make that person some sort of

devil, either, no matter what his most passionate supporters think. works both ways, you know. the grief that people have been, and continue to, catch, over even the faintest hint that they have some reservations about him has been disgusting.

[Barack_America]

14. It doesn't make you evil. It's just completely counterproductive...

..to what we all agree upon is the goal (I think); getting a Dem in the White House.

[lark]

384. We are not Repugs,

we don't do lockstep very well. (My computer is being weird, hope it's not making multiple posts out of this?). As a true Dem, we need to be alert to what's happening and the Dem candidate who said he wouldn't vote for FISA and who was against it, then didn't do anything to stop it being the law of the land. Not speaking out against that is like Repugs not speaking out against Bush breaking the constitution with illegal wiretapping to begin with. Are we now to be in favor of shredding the constitution just because Obama is? Hell, NO! We'll call BS on this because it is so very important. He just failed a MAJOR test of character. We shredded Bush for this endlessly on this board, now it's OK because Obama says it is? Come on folks, that's just dangerous and stupid. We need to call him on this and hope he "changes his mind once more" when he's in the WH. If we all go along with this, what will motivate him to change? Obviously his principals wouldn't force this or he couldn't have bent over so far to begin with.

[FrenchieCat]

16. For 8 fucking days?

Sorry, but there is Free Speech, and then there is overkill aka ragging endlessly!

At some point,

[Pirate Smile]

7. That was damn entertaining.

:D K&R

[blondeatlast]

8. And for the love of Pete, stop using "lockstep." We can't even agree on the sky color at DU. K&R. nt

[NoodleBoy]

10. You're not blonde! stop misrepresenting yourself you fascist!

[blondeatlast]

19. ??? I guess I don't get it...

:shrug:

[NoodleBoy]

21. . . .

I just wanted to find something to disagree with you about.

[blondeatlast]

25. It's kinda cool outside today...

Will that work? :rofl:

[Faygo Kid]

A reminder: Two terms of George W. Bush. And he isn't finished with us yet.

I'll take my chances with Barack Obama's imperfections. We MUST throw this group out of office, and assure that the last eight years are never repeated in our lifetimes.

I stand with Barack.

[blondeatlast]

34. "(The NeoCons) aren't finished with us yet." That sums up what's at stake beautifully. nt

[butterfly77]

12. Thank you..

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. K&R.

THEY CAN TAKE AWAY OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEEEEDOMMMMM!!!

... Oh, wait, this is an internet message board and I'm not actually being drawn and quartered for opposing the King. Never mind.

[MarjorieG]

18. A little expression at the surprise, okay. Put energy, effort elsewhere. Get Obama elected.

[DFW]

20. In the interests of not being confused with freepers---

Could we please wait to trash Obama until AFTER he's inaugurated?

[TreasonousBastard]

24. K&R Been sayin' this all along...

Ain't none of these keyboard heroes out there risking their jobs (if they're actually working) homes, and maybe ome jailtime screaming about their imaginary freedoms.

Too bad we can't ship 'em all to Zimbabwe where they can tell Mugabe how to run his elections.

[Rowdyboy]

26. K&R....Primaries are the time for criticism and dissent....Now is the time to come together....

and unite to beat the hell out of the Republicans. If half the energy that went into tearing down Obama was spent on defeating McCain we'd be in much better shape.

[JVS]

135. Right on.

[tblue37]

209. Bill Clinton's line, one of his best, was that during the primaries we can fall in love, but

for the GE we should fall in line.

One reason Republicans always get it close enough to steal--and sometimes actually even win outright--is that no matter how they bitch, when it comes time to support their nominee and vote their party, they do so, no matter how hard they have to hold their noses.

Democrats, on the other hand, have a tendency to take their ball and go home in a snit.

We have two choices in this election: Obama or McCain. There are no other options for this election. If Obama is not elected, McCain will be. (Oh, and the next president will name two or three Supreme Court justices--at least.)

[Laurab]

28. Thank you! Our Democracy IS at stake if McBush is elected.

I can't afford to nitpick or attack our Democratic nominee - I'll save that for when he's President, which many people seem to think he IS already.

This country will never recover if McCain is elected - THAT is my biggest concern right now, and I wish that more people on this board would be concerned about it as well.

K&R

[WillParkinson]

39. Sorry, but it seems that many people...

seem to think Mr. Obama is the second coming, not just President.

If we're not coming together on a candidate can we at least find out WHY we're not coming together? I have said that I will vote for Mr. Obama, but he has not earned my vote. And, if he continues on with some of the things he's done in the past and recently (FISA being one of them) my vote is also his to lose.

True, I do not want Mr. McCain in because as has been mentioned he is the same as Mr. Bush, but some of the things Mr. Obama has done in the running almost seem to qualify him (in some regards) as Bush-Lite. (And, yes, you may jump on me now for expressing how I feel.)

[FrenchieCat]

48. So can I see your posting against McCain?

Thank you.

[WillParkinson]

56. Sure...just read the post

"True, I do not want Mr. McCain in because as has been mentioned he is the same as Mr. Bush, but some of the things Mr. Obama has done in the running almost seem to qualify him (in some regards) as Bush-Lite. (And, yes, you may jump on me now for expressing how I feel.)"

See the "do not want Mr. McCain" part? Yes, I am posting against him. I do not like him. I do not want him as my President. As I've said in the previous message and in many others, I will vote for Mr. Obama because he is better than Mr. McCain. Not because I feel as though he's earned my vote.

And my vote is still his to lose. I have never sat out an election in my adult life. I hope not to have to do it in this election.

[FrenchieCat]

62. Do you have anymore.....that one is somewhat tipid.......

[WillParkinson]

71. Would you be satisfied with anything I said?

If it wasn't in full 100% complete agreement with Mr. Obama? Likewise, have you said anything against Mr. Obama? Or are you in 100% agreement with absolutely everything he says?

[redqueen]

339. The rule isn't that we simply think McCain is worse. The rule is that we SUPPORT Obama.

"my vote is still his to lose. I have never sat out an election in my adult life. I hope not to have to do it in this election."

That's not supporting.

[lark]

385. Aren't you pushing the rules a bit far, here?

If he says he's voting for Obama, isn't that supporting? Where is Skinner's rule that we have to provide material support, or enthusiastic support? So, if someone gives Obama no money but still votes for him - isn't that supportive enough for you, oh queen of compliance? :think:

I thought this was a Democratic message-board, not an Obama page?:shrug:

[redqueen]

393. No. I'm not pushing anything.

Read what he said:

"my vote is still his to lose. I have never sat out an election in my adult life. I hope not to have to do it in this election."


He could lose the vote? That's not support.


He HOPES he won't "have" to sit out an election? That, also, is not support.

[WillParkinson]

406. When the candidate does so many things that I disagree with...

I apologize for the fact that I cannot be enthusiastic about his candidacy.

I could proffer half-hearted support for him but would that be genuine? Likely not. If I am going to support someone I want to be able to do so with my heart not being full of doubt.

As I've said, if that's not enough for you please feel free to alert on me and let the Mods decide.

[Laurab]

158. I don't think Obama, or anyone for that matter

is the "second coming". Personally, I have read Obama's books, I believe I know what he believes and how he thinks, and while he may not be perfect, I feel he will make an excellent President. I'm not naive, I know he is a politician too, and I will never agree with everything ANY politician does or says.

It's not my place to "jump on you" or tell you how to think. I'm glad you'll probably vote for the nominee. I have kids and grandkids, and the only thing I know for sure is that we cannot afford to have John McCain as president.

I don't believe Obama will be "Bush-Lite" at all - what I DO believe is that he knows what he has to do to get elected. I also know what he has promised to do if he is elected, and I believe that he is an honest man - far more honest than most politicians.

If he loses your vote, there's certainly nothing I can do about it. Me, I'll save the purity test for AFTER he's elected. If others think we can afford "bomb bomb Iran", 100 years in Iraq, more tax cuts for the wealthy, etc., then that's their right, and hopefully if that happens, they can live with it, and the country itself can survive through it.

I don't think it will happen - too many people don't want "4 more years", and I'm very hopeful, myself, that we can begin repairing this country in January '09.

[unapatriciated]

289. "Purity", "Purist" those words seems to be a little over used lately....

are they code words for dirty hippie, liberal, far left loon ? I have heard and been called these names before but usually by repugs. I also have children and grandchildren and have no desire to see McCain elected, for that reason alone Obama will get my vote. My children and grandchildren are also the reason I will let my candidate know when (and why) I disagree with him. Fisa was not a small issue and I and others had not just a right but a duty to voice our dissent. In my opinion this was a chance for him to lead not follow. Obama has many polices and stances on issues that directly affect my children, that I disagree with. If enough of us let him know how we feel and why, he might "change" and "grow" into an even greater candidate. If we say nothing now what makes you think he will listen to us after the election?

I'm a mother who wants equal rights for my lesbian daughter, a health care system that includes my disabled son and a country that will not leave my grandchildren behind when it comes to education.

[redqueen]

341. They're code words for people stupid enough to vote against their own self-interest

despite knowing better. Unlike republicans... those "What's the Matter With Kansas" people who vote against their self-interest because of whatever silly issue they get all worked up about.

Liberal purists are the mirror image of those... only worse. They're supposed to know better.

[unapatriciated]

353. sorry i don't think fisa is a silly issue...

and to vote against it is somehow voting against our own self-interest? I think the repugs will use this against him. I guess I 'm just too "stupid" to understand how the fourth amendment is somehow obsolete and part of the "Liberal Purists" agenda. To use this word purist against a fellow democrat who disagrees about this issue is the same as when the repugs refer to Obama as an elitist.

[redqueen]

394. Who said it was silly?

We have one nominee. Criticize the stance on FISA all you want...

[bjobotts]

260. McBush won't get elected.You can support Obama and still call him out

when he goes against everything we believe in like the fourth amendment.

[bjobotts]

267. Agreed but it doesn't make what Obama did right or us blind.

[jgraz]

291. So let's make sure we flush it down the shitter beforehand!

Love the strategy there. :thumbsup:

[dflprincess]

359. Yes, democracy is at stake

and I don't quite understand why it's any less at stake when it's the presumed Democratic nominee who is willing to trash parts of the Constitution. If McCain was the only candidate who was voting for FISA we'd all be screaming that he's pushing us closer to facism. But, because Obama is doing it, it's a smart political move. So, does that make it a smart political move for McCain as well? It can't be one way for one candidate and the other way for another.

[Kahuna]

33. Whew Sister! You said a mouthful.

:yourock:

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Oh, here isn't the only place. At my Unite for Chane meeting yesterday over 3/4 of the people signed

my petition asking Obama to reconsider his stance on FISA, and then I also hang out over at the Obama website myobama.com at one of the largest groups there. It's filled with Obama supporters working to get him to reconsider his support for the current FISA bill. Here's the url, come over and check us out! http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA

So how was your Unite for Change event yesterday? How many people were there? Do you have any interesting stories about the people you met?

Thanks for sharing in advance.

[Barack_America]

51. Sweet! Undermining our candidate's volunteer base!

That's VERY helpful!

[John Q. Citizen]

111. Tell me about your Unite for Change meeting. Mine was very cool. We had

finger food and hor d' oeuvres for the first hour. It was great to see a lot of the people who I'd been working so hard with in the primaries. (just a few short weeks ago) Some of us were at camp Obama together. Here in Montana, last in the nation, we put Obama over the top!

The new regional field director was there. He knew the staff that had come down to Ravalli county in the final ten days of the campaign. Me and a few other people had opened our own donated completely volunteer office (we had no paid staff, just us locals) and had been phone banking and canvassing for about a month prior to the staff arrival. We were doing 700 calls a night twice a week out of our office.

The Hostess and I had met at camp Obama and she was hired to run the Missoula County Office. I live about 1/4 of a mile into Missoula County but geographically I'm closer to Ravalli county, so more of my campaigning went on there.

The hostess helped me print up my petition, as well as some supporting information (the ACLU's analysis of FISA, a list of the Dem Senators who attempted the filibuster, Obama's differing statements then and now on FISA, and phone numbers for Obamas national campaign office and his Senate office. She and her grown kids were my first signers!

I had a great and long talk with the Regional field manager about an idea I have for Obama to visit the Town of Troy, in NW Montana, and specifically a disc golf course there that a local activist working with at risk youths had built with a city/private partnership. The city gave 20 acres of land right in down town Troy, MT, and an area that had been used for drinking and drugging (it used to be called "Hobo Jungle" for years) was turned into a community asset. It's used almost constantly and the city uses it for economic development. They put on some large tournaments each year and draw over a hundred contestants for 3 days from all over Montana as well as from Idaho and Washington. Disc Golfers are natural Obama supporters, and they are also kind of viral trend setters. They encompass pre high school up into their 60's in age. I spoke with the Obama's campaign Chief Operations Officer Betsy Myers last month when she was here about the same idea ( I think disc golf would make an exceptional micro targeting opportunity for Obama)and I wanted to pitch my idea with him and also ask him to bring it up with Betsy again. He knew all about disc golf,(folf) Betsy had never heard of it before I spoke to her.

After an hour of chatting, getting signatures, and munching we settled down for our meeting. The Missoula office will be opening next week. We talked about attracting former Hill supporters as well as independents, and about some of the goals for Missoula. People talked about their experiences in the primary and their expectations for the general.

After that hour I helped the hostess and her kids clean up the event and then I got some interesting info. You know how Obama went to the Crowe Reservation and was "adopted " by a Crowe family? Well apparently, while a the other reservations had voted for Obama, there were some hard feelings that need to be mended. Some of the interactions with other native American groups didn't go as well as hoped, and a women who was knowledgeable about it was saying that some real political work and outreach was needed. So I'm going to call some contacts and see if i can find a native American liaison for the campaign. I think I have a couple of good prospects. I found that interesting, because a DUer who now lives away from MT had posted at the time Obama went to the res that Obama had been adopted into the tribe of his "natural enemies." He was being facetious, but there was more to it that that.

Anyway, how did your meeting go? How many folks did you have?

[Barack_America]

117. I work organizing college students...

So, considering they're off for the summer, I'm taking a bit of a break. Actually, I'm trying to finish the bulk of my PhD over the summer, because I dedicated so much time to the campaign for our primary that I almost got kicked out of the program! :scared:

But I'll be swinging back into full gear in a month or so, to reconnect with our campaign youth coordinator about how to best implement student registration and GOTV efforts as they move back into town. Fortunately, the same youth coordinator that we had for the primaries has returned to our area for the general, so we'll hopefully be on the same page from the get-go.

Although I am itching to get out there and register more voters. I haven't seen many registration events in the neighborhoods that I like to target (i.e. the "hood"). Most of the events are playing it safe in the more "latte liberal" type neighborhoods and that's just not where the battle is, IMO. I'm not really a "meeting" type person and I try to avoid them if at all possible. I prefer to get my orders and get to work. I strongly prefer registering voters (I did over 500 before our primary) and canvassing (over 1000 doors knocked!).

Sounds like you had a good meeting!

And, isn't Betsy awesome? I got a chance to meet and speak with her back in April. She impressed me greatly.

[John Q. Citizen]

141. Betsy was amazing. She was here with former Sen. Callahan for a Women for Obama

event.

Congrats on your over 1000 doors! Back in the early nineties I canvassed full time for three years with Oregon Fair Share and also with some of their sister organizations (Fair Share/Citizen Action) It was issue politics which in some ways is easier that electoral politics, but we were also fund raising a minimum of $110.00 a night which is a lot harder than doing ID's and registering voters.

And hey, if you can't subvert your own volunteer base, who the hell can you subvert? :)

Seriously, I think the grass roots needs to keep the pressure on Obama so to speak. That doesn't mean we pick needless fights, that just means we recognize that there are a lot of non-grass roots (ie corporate, elites) forces that are putting pressure on him as well, and we need to push back. Poor guy. Now he's a sandwich. A squished one at that.

Hey, one more story. On election night June 3rd, an old lefty radical organizer buddy of mine told me that he was looking through his archives and he found an old issue of the New Party News Letter. The New Party was a lefty group that had chapters in various cities and towns and was working to make fusion voting legal again across the country.(New York State still has fusion voting. It's a way for third parties to have some political clout without acting as spoilers. The Dems and the Repos have outlawed it most places)

Anyway our local New Party effort elected a majority to the Missoula City Council for a while back in the mid 90's, much to the dismay of the local Dems.

He said the news letter in question had a photo of me on the front page with my infant daughter on my back collecting signatures for a statewide minimum wage increase initiative. On the second page (inside) was a photo of The Chicago New Party endorsed winners from the previous election (1996 I think), and one of the winners was a younger Barack Obama! How's that for cool? Barack was a New Party endorsed candidate! Shhh! Don't tell anyone or the conservatives will explode and perhaps some Dems as well!

Anyway, have fun and keep knocking and registering! If politics isn't fun it's not worth doing.

[WildEyedLiberal]

70. You are, quite obviously, not the kind of person I'm talking about

So why take offense to something that clearly doesn't apply to you? Are you doing nothing to work for change but bleating on a messageboard, and do you then have an overinflated sense of self-importance about said posts on a messageboard? No? If not, then why assume the OP applies to you at all?

[John Q. Citizen]

118. Because I figure that a lot of the folks who do what you are refering to and a lot who take

offense at the folks you are referring to are probably sitting bleating on a message board.

Besides, I want people to see the url for the Obama group, both because I think it's important for the campaign to know the effect of the FISA thing on their people, and because the more people that get over to the Obama site the better anyway, even if it's not to the group I'm promoting. Once they are there they are asked to join, and whether you are concerned with FISA or not, you are there either way.

Also, I think it's important for people to know that you can be pissed, disappointed, and even actively work to pressure your candidate to do what you want without having to see them as the enemy, or to be seen as the enemy.

We saw this with Code Pink, for instance. Some people bashing them without understanding the important role they play, and some people hating on the official because they don't get what they want. There is another way.

So did you make your Unite for Change meeting yesterday? And if you did will you share your story?

[Jakes Progress]

145. Crickets.

[John Q. Citizen]

159. Damn it! Why can't I get anybody who's pissed at folks who don't like Obama's stance on FISA to

tell me their Unite for Change stories?

What's the deal?

I did like Kristy's campaign stories, but she didn't even seem that pissed at folks who don't like Obama's FISA stance.

[Jakes Progress]

175. That's because they are keyboard warriors.

I'm still bummed that I didn't get to mine. I should have gone but was depressed from the death of my cat companion of 16 years that morning. I spoke with a couple of our regulars who said it was quite uplifting. I should have gone; maybe it would have helped my mood.

[John Q. Citizen]

196. Sorry to hear about your loss. It can be so tough, for us, the living. Of course the

beautiful part is that your life was touched by a creature you loved and who loved you back, quite an amazing thing.

[Andrea]

396. Don't be too hard on yourself.

It takes time to recover from the loss of a companion animal, especially after so many years. My condolences to you.

[unapatriciated]

298. Thank you for saying it so well....

"I think it's important for people to know that you can be pissed, disappointed, and even actively work to pressure your candidate to do what you want without having to see them as the enemy, or to be seen as the enemy."
We didn't make our meeting unfortunately we work week ends, but I did sign the online petition. Hope to get involved soon but it's hard when you work weekends and swing shifts.

[Psyop Samurai]

50. Couldn't help but notice the irony of your sig line. nt

[WildEyedLiberal]

79. What's that? Do tell

I'm not a fan of coy innuendo. It's cowardly. So please, tell me: what's ironic about my signature line? Be specific. Are you accusing me of not having integrity? If so, then have the balls to do it explicitly. Would you care to explain in detail how any of my OP belies an alleged lack of integrity? If I am sick and tired of the faux "progressive" martyrs, then I have no integrity? I am to assume that you think that, because you apparently are offended by my OP and thus probably engage in the kind of behavior I address in my OP, that you DO have integrity?

No please, tell me exactly what you mean.

[WildEyedLiberal]

102. What's the matter? Don't have the courage to spell it out?

I despise cowards.

[Psyop Samurai]

113. Ya need to slow down... Way, way down.

:eyes:

I find your OP to be a presumptuous ad hominem, and your aggressive approach to be more counterproductive by far than what you're accusing others of.

I do not feel obliged to elaborate on my prior comment -- it's for you to meditate upon.

[Jakes Progress]

154. Meditation - no. Pointless Chest Thumping - yes.

This kind of OP is a transparent plea for approval."Oh, look at me, look at me. See how big and mean and tough I am. Please K&R me. Don't you love me?"

Examine the concept and what it portends to do. The OP says he wants to get people to stop posting anything not positive about Obama. So the OP picks on a goodly number of those here and saber rattles and foot stamps and shakes the branches telling us that we aren't to be here, that we are all selfish and stupid. As we all know, telling someone they are selfish and stupid is exactly how you get them to do what you want. The OP can't be that dumb, so he isn't really trying to help Obama by getting people to stop posting criticism.

I just wish Obama had a little more of WEL in him. Now if the OP were to act like the candidate he supposedly supports, he would spend most of the post agreeing with the dissenters and then tell us that he will try to fix the problem later.

[shagsak]

345. LOL

I think I get it, so the sig line contains John Kerry, who was sabotaged by the swiftboaters and should have been president. And now Obama is our nominee and the guy with the sig line is the one sabotaging Obama so that he won't be president. Just like the swiftboaters!

Man that's rich. If it's unintentional is it still his fault if we lose to McSAME?

[lark]

386. Me, me - I can answer that

You signature is "wildeyed liberal, yet you are taking a stance that his voting to shred the constitution is OK (for now) because he'll change it all when he's in the WH. Very disengenuous, and the opposite of liberal or progressive.

[NanceGreggs]

55. Hear, hear - and K&R!!!

:applause:

[Undercurrent]

60. Well said, WildEyedLiberal!

[bjobotts]

252. Evisceration of the 4th am. Cheney/Bush/Bond/Blunt all thank you too

[bjobotts]

253. Blindly support the person who supports this./ Worked for Bush enthusiasts

[bjobotts]

285. You mean Blindeyedliberal. My Obama right or wrong just as long he get president

[Canuckistanian]

68. Hahaha, good points

Especially about the "free speech" proponents.

I think we had a snoot-full of these posts during the primary battles.

Relax. Chill out.

Obama is NOT the enemy. He will NOT make things worse.

And even if you don't like the current state of affairs, THINGS WILL CHANGE.

If anything, Obama has proven that he is NOT a rigid idealogue and can adapt his vision to situations that change rapidly.

[BooScout]

72. And exactly who pissed in your wheaties today?

:eyes:

[WildEyedLiberal]

95. Do you ask that of the people who rend their garments with angst over every pissant thing Obama does

Or just the people who call said martyrs on their over-the-top bullshit?

[BooScout]

108. Take your own advice.....

It's a message board for god's sakes.......your blood pressure must be sky high over much ado about nothing.:eyes:

[WildEyedLiberal]

109. My blood pressure is just fine

Why do you assume I'm upset? I enjoy being creative when I write. This whole thread is quite enlightening, actually.

Oh, and I really love the rolling eyes smiley. It's really unique and clever. Could you post a few more of them for me? Please?

[BooScout]

114. Oh....I dunno........

I assumed your BP was up because your OP is so full of anger at people voicing their opinions that it seems it may explode......and just for you.......:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :evilgrin:

[bjobotts]

255. This is really a big deal. The only time ACLU/Move On condemned his action too

[bjobotts]

257. Only time I wrung my hands out. Stop minimizing it."If the pres does it,it'snot illegal"

[wndycty]

80. K&R

:kick:

[Enrique]

81. we need to arm ourselves NOW

who's with me?

[dailykoff]

83. On the other hand, if we can't count on Obama to defend basic civil rights

without speaking up, then we're going to have to speak up. So I think you're trivializing something important.

[politicasista]

88. A bangin, phat K&R!

Me is all for constructive criticism, but the over the top Obama bashing doesn't help our cause.

:kick: :yourock: :hi:



edit for word.

[sandnsea]

92. Nicely done

:applause:

:hug:

[madfloridian]

96. "Our integrity sells for so little, yet it's all we really have. It is the very last inch of us.

"Our integrity sells for so little, yet it's all we really have. It is the very last inch of us. But within that inch, we are free."

Good sig line.

[WildEyedLiberal]

99. Yes, I quite like it

Thank you.

I hope this is a genuine compliment and not a coy implication, because someone upthread already insinuated that my sig line is "ironic," and there's very little I dislike more than people who don't have the courage to outright accuse me of something and so do it in clever, subtle little innuendos. So I really hope this isn't another one of those, because that's pretty craven, if so. If not, accept my apologies and thanks again.

[RichardRay]

101. Huzzah, huzzah and bravo...

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[burythehatchet]

103. It's a catchy argument, but trends show a different story.

The impact of robust discussion on message boards such as these is growing. KO's Countdown is essentially a summary of what is discussed here and on other boards. Campaign staffs have invested in mining these boards for information, emotion, and inclination. The $$$ is coming from here in far greater proportions. I could go on, but I believe you aren't reading the tea leaves accurately.

[blondeatlast]

112. The OP isn't dismissing the arguments; she's discussing the need to martyr one's self as a victim of

oppression because one doesn't happen to agree with the majority. I ignore the over-the-top posters on both "sides" for lack of a better term, but the sackcloth and ashes gang make me want to spew.

[tomp]

188. i've been in the political minority since i knew what politics was...

...i've paid my dues in organizing, demonstrating, marching, writing congresspersons, etc., and goddamn it if it doesn't sometimes feel like martyrdom, especially when "one's own" party so easily casts off the basic tenets of my political beliefs in favor of "expediency" and getting elected, and then does nothing to act like a party that actually represents me when elected. i have never in my lifetime voted for a candidate that i FULLY support. i'm quite frankly a little tired of all this bullshit about party loyalty and apologism for inferior candidates. when was the last time the democratic party even threw a bone to its progressive wing? the democratic party is going to lose the support of real progressives one day and WEL isn't helping.

[FrenchieCat]

202. Problem is you are not the only one that has done all that they could.....

so you see the "dom" of martyrism is quite heavily populated.

There are no inferior or superior candidates beyond those who win versus those who lose.

Perhaps you are so used to losing for so long, you have no clue when a winning candidate is staring you in the face.

And in the last 8 years, how many progressive bones have you been thrown? Cause that's how long we haven't had a Democratic President......so obviously it ain't about the bone....it's about the meat, i.e., without power, don't shit get done...progressive or otherwise.

In other words, first things first, and you are no bigger a hero than the rest of us.

Got that?

[tomp]

237. the election of a democrat and "winning" are two different things for me.

but that's because i'm not a party person. i'm a politics person. i want someone who represents me and what i believe in. i don't care what letter follows the name, and frankly, i care first about the principles and then about "winning". in my view, i "win" when i stick to my principles.

the people i fully support never get near the election and i'm forced to vote for the inferior (to me) candidate (that is, unless you'd rather i didn't vote).

you are being really obtuse and/or naive if you think progressives were thrown any bones or if anything resembling progressive got accomplishedunder clinton.

[lark]

376. Remember FMLA?

Hint = Best workplace new law in forever and Clinton signed it. Millions of people have been able to keep jobs because of this that would otherwise have been fired.

[ElboRuum]

409. No... No... No!!!

Don't mention the successes... it'll just confuse him.

[lark]

387. Why is it always about size with men?

Geeze Louise!!!

[blondeatlast]

225. My first choice has never won the primaries and I've been voting and activist for 30 years.

Don't lecture me, grasshopper--I knocked on doors in 1978.

[tomp]

239. beat you by ten years, grasshopper, but so what?

you and frenchie cat are a real tag team, aren't you. do you share that brain cell?

[blondeatlast]

244. What the heck are you talking about? nt

[blondeatlast]

256. Y'know, I'll just let that stand. The personal attack on both of us

says more about you than having a post deleted ever could.

And no, this gal doesn't tag-team, but I have been a victim of it.

[unapatriciated]

294. lol I was just going to answer the same, started when I was 16

damn I'm just an old.:hippie:

[blondeatlast]

350. My apologies for being born a few years later. I did it on purpose, of course.

:eyes:

[unapatriciated]

351. what you are not understanding

is that fisa is a very important issue and some of us believe we not only have a right to disagree with our candidate but a duty to do so when it goes against our best interest. It gets old when you continue to insist that any criticism somehow suggest we are playing the "martyr" are "purists" .
You were the one took the dialog in the direction of how long you have been involved and when you are trumped you get upset.

[blondeatlast]

352. I'm not upset and I've been politically active since I was in my teens.

You seem willing to discuss this like an adult so I'll engage you. I don't mind the concerns about Obama but I'm scared--I have an 11 year old son and I see the only chance to protect his future as a Democratic administration and hopefully congress.

I'm concerned about FISA and I contacted my worthless Senators (McCain and Kyl) about it. It's just that there are a zillion other issues I'm concerned about (SCOTUS, Iraq) and no candidate can be all things to all people.

This is just the problem here--we're all inflamed and can't seem to discuss things rationally; I get labeled as "lockstepper," those concerened about FISA are "fringe." Never the twain shall meet, it seems. That sucks.

I'm as guilty as anyone but I'd like to discuss things the way we are now; that's why I came here.

[unapatriciated]

354. I am just so tired of it all....

lets just agree to disagree without comparing who is the more loyal and active D. I will never understand the fourth amendment being a "fringe" issue.

[blondeatlast]

355. As long as you won't call me a "lockstepper," we have a deal.

As I say, my first Dem choice has never won the nomination (and oh, the hopes I had and the effort I put forth for Mo Udall, even before I could vote! )

:hi:

[ElboRuum]

410. You wear that like its a badge of honor.

If you are so far out of the main, then you are IN the minority.

Some quick facts.

The minority view is lucky if it can consider itself well-represented.

The minority view is unlikely to resonate well enough with the everybody-else to experience anything but the occasional victory.

As long as you are in the minority view, you will not be represented no matter who gets elected because that person will not be in the minority view. This is a country where the majority view often gets it way while the minority view rarely does. Sorry if this bothers you, but it is the truth.

You will never fully support a candidate because people generally do not agree on all things and you seem to regard those differences as either abject idiocy or dark betrayals. I know you've never considered this before, but what if YOU are the one who has it wrong? And if you always view things in this rigid manner, you will never experience one iota of satisfaction, even on the occasion that a candidate does something you might like.

Of course you are tired of party loyalty and apologism, because every time someone says "hey, let's win something for a fucking change!", you say, "I don't like his/her views on traffic codes and frozen yogurt, fucking DINO! Only a DLCer would support stopping on a red! And how DARE he prefer vanilla to pistachio!" To you, it seems, supporting anyone but the one you deem most worthy is "apologizing for an inferior candidate's shortcomings". I know if I tilted at windmills like you do, you know, in much a way that Don Quixote might remark "Man, that dude is FUUUUUUUCKED UP.", I'd be a little tired, too.

This isn't about throwing progressives a bone, it's all about your views being satisfied, even if we don't share them. But don't sit there and make it seem like Obama just ain't "our" cup of tea, when, in reality, he isn't your cup of tea. He's progressive enough for me, even if he isn't for you.

I would say that, if we were to sit down and have a point-for-point discussion on issues, you and I would probably disagree to varying degrees on 75% of the topics discussed. That would not make me the one who is wrong.

So please. Continue. Be the second coming of Jeanne d'Arc of you must. But you'll get no sympathy from me. Being an iconoclast because you think it's the right thing to do is occasionally a rough and depressing philosophical angle. I know from personal experience.

But I never whined about it like you have.

[blondeatlast]

105. "sackclothnashes.com" I've just registered that domain; I expect to make a FORTUNE!

Who's in with me?

[johnaries]

106. Thank You! rec'd.

[depakid]

115. It's a political message board...

actually, the it's the "hyperbole board" within the boards.

What else do expect people to talk about?

And how else do you expect progressives to react to condescending posts that can't resist gratuitous smack like this:

not good enough for the partisan left who will attempt to undermine him at every turn, just like they undermined Gore and Kerry.

Seems to me you're whinging about the very thing you're admonishing others for!

[blondeatlast]

119. She didn't say don't disagree, just don't be a whining, purer-than-thou martyr about doing so.

Sackcloth and ashes flatter no one and repel folks because it smells rotten.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Politicub]

116. K&R! Great post!!

But but but... my nitpicking problem is so more precious than the specter of another four years of a GOP president... /sarcasm

[Two Americas]

121. how about this?

How about you stop pretending that bitching about defenders of the Bill of Rights is "supporting the nominee," and that people who are defending the Bill of Rights are talking about Obama?

The "partisan left" is not undermining the party. The entire success of the right wing and the Republicans came from following their "partisan right," not from becoming Democrat-lite and attacking their partisans relentlessly.

I am not seeing much criticism of Obama. There are about 100 posts complaining about criticism of Obama for every one that actually does. I haven't criticized Obama, and have expressed nothing but support, the same way I have for every party nominee for 40 years, yet every time I post someone attacks me for allegedly criticizing the nominee.

[TheDonkey]

122. LOL, great post.

[JohnnyCougar]

124. LOL. Frickin' awesome.

[Straight Shooter]

125. Oh, FFS.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Cha]

126. Thanks Wild Eyed! This had to be said.

I called Obama and voiced my opinion that he Vote NO on FISA and support Dodd and Feingold and now I'm letting him and his team handle it.

My personal fave is.."Obama's betrayed us!"

[elshiva]

128. ....

:hug:

[politicasista]

132. ....

:hi:

[elshiva]

133. ...

:hi: back.

[tandot]

129. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! K & R

[katandmoon]

130. You sound like the one who needs to come down off the cross

I have criticized Obama plenty, and I have NEVER depicted myself as a "heroic revolutionary patriot," nor have I seen any other Obama critics depict themselves that way. YOU are the only one here that I see depicting Obama critics that way.

I simply want and -- expect -- the candidates I have little choice but to vote for, considering the much much worse alternatives, to be held to the exact same standard AS the alternatives. Anything else, in my opinion, is hypocrisy and opens Democrats up, justifiably so, also IMO, to some of the exact same charges as we level at McCain. And I simply don't believe adherence to a double standard helps our cause. I believe it hurts it badly.

[Faygo Kid]

134. George W. Bush. Two terms. This time, we go for the win.

I don't give a tinker's damn about ideological purity. I want Bush out, and my country back.

I do see many Hillary backers here today who left DU after Barack's inevitability. Strange that they all return on the same day.

[katandmoon]

143. I don't consider it a" win" if Obama votes for the FISA bill

After saying he opposed telecom immunity. Because now he's giving Bush exactly what he wants. There is no way to spin that away. All of the blistering hyberbole in the world launched at former Hillary supporters can't change that inconvenient fact.

And by the way, I don't know what you mean about "many Hillary backers here" "returning on the same day." Are you keeping some kind of track?

[Faygo Kid]

152. Nope. Just a regular poster here on DU. And I see what's happening today.

I hardly launched "blistering hyperbole at former Hillary supporters."

Still, the mods will take care of this.

Barack Obama is the nominee. And I support him. This attempt to undermine him here on DU will go nowhere.

[katandmoon]

179. Please GMA FB! The only person "undermining" Obama is Obama!

[Faygo Kid]

211. OK. See ya.

Back to hillaryclintonforum.net for you.

Sorry your candidate lost. Not. PUMA awaits you.

The rest of us will take back this country.

[Jakes Progress]

270. Release the hate.

In the end it will only harm you.

[bjobotts]

276. Precisely but blind boy here is so willing to ignore anything as long as Obama is doing it

[bjobotts]

277. Brownback already saying if Obama came around on FISA he'lls see we right on Iraq too

[lark]

389. Man, you win the prize for conspiracy theorist

It'z actually quite funny. Thanks for the laugh.

[info being]

317. Exactly

[shadowknows69]

138. Best piece I've read in a while

[bjobotts]

278. You need to read [e-mail] for a reality check

[fascisthunter]

140. Purists vs. Locksteps

"nailing themselves to the cross"

yeah... that'll work:eyes:

[Napoleon Bonaparte]

142. By that logic, we should all stop posting messages

The argument that we are anonymous, therefore what we say doesn't matter, is not a valid one, in my opinion.

By that logic, your own message is worthless, because America does not care, according to you.

[Stinky The Clown]

151. A good post from one of my favorite posters

Haven't seen ya in a while WEL. Good to see you're still fiesty as ever! :hi:

[saltpoint]

155. After consideration of this original post, my thought was from the

perspective of a citizen Democrat, in that I came away from this post wanting its author on my side and not against me when matters of conflict rise in the national arena, or the local one.

Were I a Republican, it might occur to me that this election and perhaps from this point forward, I would face in Democrats like this one an unprecedented and intelligent ferocity willing and quite able to expose the 8 years of treachery, deceit, incompetence, skullduggery, and inhumane shitwork of George W. Bush and his wicked administration.

I would feel the heat of the fire in a post like this and even in the instance where I am a Republican -- god forbid that would ever happen -- I would reassess my goddam position rather than face the brains and ferocity in front of me.

That there is defense of our nominee in this post by content and context is a plus, IMO, but what the thing does early on and throughout is inspire challenge to any Republican out there, whether a famous one like Limbaugh or Hannity or some anonymous fool you run into around town, any of which require redirection and possibly a bit of verbal roughing up.

Over and out.

[madfloridian]

160. What will you do when Dems go along with the Iran war drums?

Will you be so angry?

Can we dissent?

[Coexist]

162. ,,,

[grantcart]

163. k and r

[Joe Fields]

165. How shallow and presumptuous of you to assume my feelings aren't genuine.

You know nothing about me.

[Napoleon Bonaparte]

167. Don't we know we are nothing but fakes?

Because we fail to embrace our candidate in 100% of the instances.

[Algorem]

166. "bitching"? why the misogynistic language?

what are you,"on the rag"?

i think someone's not tired of picking fights.

[papapi]

219. I thought any gender could 'bitch'. Am I wrong?

[Jakes Progress]

168. Lots of energy, but confusing.

You say you have the freedom to tell someone they are wrong, but if they tell you you are wrong, they are republicans who must be thrown off of DU. Kinda backward, no? One of the elements you discuss - Freedom of Speech on DU - can quite possibly become a moot point.

We have our right, as Democrats, on a Democrat message forum to talk about how we think Democrats should vote. You can say you think he has to be republican lite to win, but many of us think that we need to tell him that being republican lite is the best way to lose. You seem to think you are helping him get elected, while many of us believe that this kind of attitude and behavior will end in his defeat. You have a right to your opinion on how to help get him elected. I disagree, but I'm not going to pretend to speak for Skinner and tell you that you will be banned for having a different idea than mine.

What is wrong with trying to influence your candidate? If Obama said tomorrow that he was thinking of supporting a war with Iran, would you want to tell him you didn't think he should? (I assume you thing he should not.) If he wanted to support a republican bill banning abortions after the first month of pregnancy, would you try to influence him?

Drink a little less coffee. Meditate. Reflect. It will help.

[Danger Mouse]

172. This is the best OP i've ever read on DU. You, sir, are my hero.

:applause:
K and motherfuckin R.
SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER!!! HOLD HIS FEET TO THE FIRE!!!!
drrrooool...

[understandinglife]

180. "... and accept ..." that ANY American can tell you you are wrong.

And they are.

Excellent post. Recommended.

Thank you,
Bob

[BlooInBloo]

182. It's just their within-the-rules way of getting back at him.

[madfloridian]

183. So, if we speak up are we "unpatriotic"?

Just wondering.

[bjobotts]

280. Don't criticize,O must win election, then stay popular, then reelection

Always be some excuse to not speak up when O makes big mistakes on what he supposed to stand for (in his own words?)

[bjobotts]

282. Media now saying "Obama abandoning core beliefs for political gain"

When dems move to center they lose elections. Repubs campaigning on far right principles lost in every case since 2006. Dems aginst the war and stronly against FISA have won every time in republican states with republican reps being replaced for the first time in 12yrs. Doing what this poster wants and not taking a stand will do more to harm Obama than help him. But his opinion overrules the facts. For examples go to [e-mail]

[Major Hogwash]

185. What's really funny . .

is they're bitching on a forum.
Can you imagine what these people are like in real life?

Hahahahahahaha!

Like the real world isn't bad enough, they have to bitch about our nominee nonstop on the forum and then claim they have the right to "hold his feet to the fire".

Like they were the first ones to ever bitch on the intermenet!!

I love it.
Bitch, bitch, bitch.

Like they are striking a blow for freedom by bitching about Obama at DU!!!

Hahahahahahaha!

"Hold his feet to the fire" - that's a good one.
Hell, a lot of these same people were heaping barbeque brickettes on him during the primary trying to get him to burn up.

Like my grandfather used to say - consider the alternative!!

If McCain doesn't scare them yet, they're too stupid to vote!!

[TexasObserver]

186. the dirty dozen are still here, still attacking Obama at every turn

I suppose it's time to put all them back on Ignore, since they're clearly not on board with Obama.

[madfloridian]

192. Who are the dirty dozen? Am I one because I criticized FISA?

Who are the dirty dozen.

[TexasObserver]

214. No.

For the past month or so, there have been about a dozen posters who attack Obama and claim to have been Hillary supporters, although whether they really were is an open question. They haven't relented since Hillary conceded. Since they don't seem to care for Obama, and they do seem to spend most of their time spouting RW talking points, I don't believe they're really Hillary supporters at all.

[mtnsnake]

242. Of pipe the fuck down with your silly conspiracy theories.

Get a life while you're at it.

[TexasObserver]

258. And there you are, right on cue.

Thanks for proving my point.

[mtnsnake]

320. You are simply starting rumors. Either answer the question posed to you or stop with your BS

You brought up the "Dirty Dozen". You have been asked twice by someone to explain who this Dirty Dozen is.

So have at it. Who is this "Dirty Dozen" you claim is out there? When you tell us who it is, be sure to provide proof of your allegations by posting links that back up your claims. I can't wait to see this.

[madfloridian]

195. Who are the dirty dozen. repeating the question.

.

[TexasObserver]

264. If you don't already know ...

... you're going to have to figure them out for yourself.

If that answer isn't sufficient for you, too bad.

[Starry Messenger]

187. Thank you!

I just wanted to type that before I scroll all the way down through...

MPK

[barack the house]

189. AMEN. Now let's get this guy elected and fix America it's our best shot however some may cut it.

[jules1962]

194. Hell yeah!

I am a diehard John Edwards supporter, but I will absolutely support and vote for Barack Obama. It really irks me that so many just bitch about everything. If you have constructive criticism, fine. But to just bitch about things is just so lame. If you have strong feelings about things than do something about it. Ragging on the nominee is not very productive, and just gives fodder to the repugs. I was heartbroken when JRE suspended his campaign, but I chose to suck it up and think about the important task of getting a Dem in the White House. Hillary, John, and a lot of the rest got behind him and are supportive. Why can't the rest of us?

[earth mom]

193. And you need to stop pushing the denial. It doesn't get anyone anywhere. nt

[LWolf]

197. Please don't pretend

that there is anything "democratic" about silencing dissent.

[Duder]

198. I agree…

I also believe that honest and reasonable debate and disagreement on issues is what makes us Democrats and not Republicans. Honest and reasonable being the key. If you don’t like a bill I commend you for contacting your representatives and letting them know. I don’t share the belief of a few idiots that not voting or voting Republican is in any way, shape, or form progressive. You have to know when and who to pick your battles with. Right now, supporting Obama will do more for progressives than any other choices. Right now, you can forget about justice until that chimp that’s holding the presidential pardon card is replaced in the Whitehouse. Right now, you can be supportive of the Democratic nominee for president whose views you may not be 100% in agreement with, or you can be a bastard of cynicism.

[madfloridian]

199. So we really don't have freedom of speech if we talk about things like FISA

Is that what you are saying?

What if he sounds like he will go along with attacking Iran?

Do we speak up then?

[FrenchieCat]

203. Well McCain is sounding like he will go along with attacking Iran.

Where's your 30 threads on that? :shrug:

[madfloridian]

204. So you don't like my FISA posts. You don't mind losing your privacy

and not speaking up about it.

They are pulling our strings....this is NOT McCain bringing it up for the vote. It is our Democrats.

It could not come up for a vote unless they allowed it.

[Major Hogwash]

273. You made your point last week.

But banging on it every day isn't going to make it any better.

Haven't you got anything better to do?

[lark]

388. We move the hell out of America

if Obama supports attacking Iran because our country will be all but gone and we will have been hoodwinked one too many times.

[woolldog]

200. Thanks. It needed to be said.

[wildeyed]

205. Great rant!

Cool screen name, too :)

[rg302200]

207. K&R

great post!

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crankychatter]

215. "if anybody needs to go, it should be the Obama supporters???" Nice self-introduction there, Slick

[NatBurner]

218. that's deep

in a bongwater kinda way

[blondeatlast]

223. Might want to check out the RULES page of the next private message board you sign onto.

You are quite mistaken in your assessment--and you are lecturing people who've been here from its inception.

(No, I don't claim to be, but still)

[bjobotts]

271. Agreed. a landslide.And yes he's still wrong on FISA and we are against it.

[Number23]

212. Damn!

You are POSTING ON A MESSAGE BOARD. You aren't "defending freedom." You aren't "saving democracy." You aren't doing anything dangerous or daring or gallant or revolutionary or heroic.

Holy sh*t!

Talking about freedom of speech on a censored private messageboard in which conservatives aren't even allowed to participate is rich, anyway, but the irony seems lost on most of you.

Ka-boom!! :rofl:

What it IS about is people nailing themselves to the cross and proclaiming themselves to be True American Patriots Bravely Speaking Truth to Power through the valiant and harrowing act of bitching about Barack Obama on an online message board.

I would add that this also applies to folks who are incapable of posting without sounding like total @ssholes allegedly in SUPPORT of Obama as well. Very nice post. DU is cool but the fanatics seem to be taking over.

[reflection]

315. I think as a society

we are all becoming rather black-and-white in our thinking. Not much room for shades of grey anymore. Sometimes I feel as if I am at a football game instead of being a citizen, if that makes any sense. (Probably not.):)

[Number23]

397. Makes perfect sense

:)

[Eric Condon]

213. Rec'd.

There are some people here who would accuse Kucinich of being "too centrist" if he was the nominee. Thanks for articulating exactly how a lot of us feel. Whatever his faults, Obama is a DAMN good candidate, and is certainly the most actively progressive nominee we've had in a long, long time.

[psychmommy]

216. amen ya wild eyed liberal you.

i should not come to my one place of sanity and have to defend the presumptive nominee over and over. constructive criticism yes. i am not voting for the nominee and i am gonna crap all over those who do is not acceptable. i don't agree with everything he says or does-but i am going to work to get him elected. i do not want john mccain-or the shell that is left of john mccain-to be the president of these united states.

[elocs]

217. I'm happy to give you a Rec. I've been saying the same thing for days now,

although not as well or as vehemently. I am another one who has grown tired of the purer-than-thou bunch who so self righteously preach and lecture us about how they are the only ones who really love the Constitution. They are the ones who actually march in lockstep with their nonstop slamming of Obama. If you dare disagree with them, then you must hate the Constitution or you are not really a patriot. I saw it happen when at first Feingold said he would just throw up procedural roadblocks to the FISA vote. He was then treated with scorn by our preachy choir, but then when he said he would support a filibuster, magically, he was a PATRIOT!

I would certainly hope that this bunch who can be so endlessly critical of Obama could take some time off from slamming him and maybe devote as much time to being critical of McCain. Criticize him if that is your passion in life, but you do NOT get to come on these DU boards and say you are not going to vote for our nominee. Delight in doing that and I hope you get the boot you so richly deserve.

[bjobotts]

274. Yeah, my Obama right or wrong..he's still the best no matter what he does.Fuck the 4th Amd

[papapi]

220. No one on DU is going to throw you in jail for criticizing DUers. K&R

[The Doctor.]

222. K+R.... I'm really sick of the stupid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3524807#3527373

[DaveJ]

224. While appreciate your freedom of speech disclaimer...

As I've said before, good luck trying to control free speech on the internet.

[cbc5g]

234. Purists like to quote Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Franklin Roosevelt as examples of purity

One owned slaves and compromised on the Constitution with others to allow slaves so it could pass, one pushed through the alien sedition acts, one put Japanese people in internment camps in WW2. While these are all heroes of America, they did pretty bad things too, not exactly purists.

[bjobotts]

275. So do democrats. "Others did bad things means what exactly."

[johnlal]

369. Some of their contemporaries spoke in opposition

Would you tell THEM to shut up as well?

[tom_paine]

236. I think the smart thing for all of us to do is pull behind Obama.

Whatever our individual disagreements with him, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot to engage in petty infighting, not now.

I'm not thrilled with what Obama has said on FISA and a couple other things, but am I going to cut off my nose to spite my face and not vote for him? No way. Of course I am going to vote for Obama. With Bush Minority Voter Supresssion and other manual and possibly electronic methods in place, Obama needs every honest vote he can get.

I also agree wholeheartedly with what you say about posting on an anonymous mesaage board. What makes a person patriotic is what goes on in real life, not behind a keyboard.

From speaking out to volunteering for campaigns to letter writing (a special tip of the hat to DUer w8liftinglady, our most prolificly published letter-to-the-editor-writer and veterans activist...yes a True Patriot and it has nothing to do with her DU presence) to any real world acts or actions.

And yes, I wholly agree that posting anonymously on an internet message board does not qualify as one of those actions.

I only hope that all the bitching is just bitching. And that 90% of those who are bitching right now are going to do the right thing and pull the lever for Obama in November.

[RNdaSilva]

241. Ranking the remaining two dominant presidential candidates,

politically, and based on a certain Bo Derek movie, I'd give Obama a 7, McCain a 3. Would prefer at least a 9 for Obama come November. Doubtful that McCain's ranking will gain any ground. Now, are comments as to how Obama might attain a 10 acceptable? At least according to my opinion. FISA for one, though not convinced that he's on the wrong track here as yet.

There's no way that I would vote for McCain...but striving for perfection is a great goal. Striving.

[The Liberal Thinker]

246. Thank you so much for this post.

I'm a newcomer to DU and was taking a break cause I didn't want to hear the BS from all the crazies here. Thank god there is some rationality within our party - listening to most of the people here makes you think the Left is actually what the Hannitys and Limbaughs say it is.

[Peacetrain]

249. K&R I couldn't have said it better myself

and straight to the point.. thank you W.E.L.

[bjobotts]

268. Then you must be retarded lol

[JimGinPA]

251. K&R #111

[johnaries]

254. I'm beginning to think some DUer's have Munchausen's Syndrome.

As a friend of mine once said "If the world were perfect, they'd bitch because they didn't have anything to bitch about."

[beachmom]

259. K & R

[Miss Chybil]

262. ROFLMAO!

Excellent!

:applause:

[OwnedByFerrets]

269. WOW, great post. K and R

[SidneyCarton]

279. Amen and Hallelujah

K & R

[bowens43]

281. what a sanctimonious , self righteous post.

......I guess we should just goose step into line ands STFU , right?????

[Barack_America]

297. Until November, frankly, yes. nt

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynneSin]

304. The point is simple

For probably 99%+ folks posting here at DU, we are here to help get Obama elected. I find this a great site of resource information that I can share in RL situations. I love how Late Breaking News is posted here and I may see a tidbit here that ends up in a conversation in real life when talking about politics. I also read up on the smears about Obama and read the replies about other posters thoughts on them and how to deal with them.

And thru the states formers I talk with other campaigners about getting together and campaigning for our candidates. So what you have is a large, almost united group of people throughout the world meeting on a board like DU but taking DU with us when we go back into the world and promote our ideas, which for the bulk of us is getting Obama elected.

So to be honest, America won't be saved by what I post just like my one single vote can't make a difference this election. But it's the collective group of people that makes the changes and for this website and the bulk of us posters - it's Obama that we are supporting. So the negative crap is bullshit. Sure people have the right to say it but this is a site whose owners have created for electing more democrats. Obama bashing now that he is the nominee is not a way to help get him elected.

[madfloridian]

287. You are right. You win.

I for one will not post anything about anything the Democrats are doing unless I think it is a good thing.

Silencing works when it is thread after thread.

[jgraz]

290. So not surprised to see a Kerry pic in your sig.

Tell me, how'd all your sanctimonious pissing on progressive activism work that time?

[JI7]

308. the sanctimonious pissing back then was from the types she describes

[jgraz]

330. Really? I remember all of us busting our asses for Kerry while he continually screwed up

[sandnsea]

356. He "screwed up" once

The only real screw up was his answer to the war question at the Grand Canyon, because he didn't hear it correctly. There weren't any other "screw ups", nothing that any loyal Republican wouldn't have been able to kick to the curb in 10 seconds. That's the entire point here, there is no perfect human being. There is something seriously wrong with the people who expect one, and who get perverse pleasure in picking the candidate apart while alternately blaming the candidate for "screw ups" that never really existed in the first place.

[jgraz]

358. Yeah, that whole "losing the election" thing

Other than that, he was GREAT!

[mtnsnake]

392. lol

[mtnsnake]

391. Kerry screwed up on a continuous basis, gaffe after gaffe, some of them embarrassing as hell

How frustrating to watch the Kerry campaign blow an election to such an imbecile as Bush.

Thank goodness we have someone in Obama this time who at least knows how to be careful and how to fight back without hesitating.

[johnlal]

368. Good point!

Ha!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

292. Refreshing post!

thanks

[Runcible Spoon]

293. refreshing as in the same old shit, many more words?

:eyes:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

295. so?

[walash]

302. Blog on sites where you can have more impact.

Your blogging here is not as effective as blogging on other news site trying to change non committed, Independent and Guns Owned Party voters or other voters for Obama.

You might be able to change Independents and Gas & Oil Party voters if you blog on Conservative and other news sites. Those votes will have more impact since you are bringing in new supporters. It will have a double impact if you can make someone switch sides. You can write on the blogs at:

wsj.com (this is the Wall Street Journal website, Washington Wire, Political Perceptions and other, it's free for blogs, no fees to pay, many Cons and Independents read the WSJ)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ (The Fix, The Trail, it's free also)

http://realclearpolitics.com/ (blogs, this is a conservative site)

http://boards.msn.com/default.aspx
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/blogs
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/default.htm


I am sure there are many other sites. Just add them here, repost this message wherever possible, and tell your friends.

Why does a "war hero" hide his military records? Google these to learn why.

McCain Adultery
McCain Temper
McCain Phil Gramm
McCain Charlie Black
McCain Rick Davis
McCain Affairs
McCain Songbird
McCain KLA
McCain Kosovo
McCain Kosovo Muslims
McCain I would vote for a Muslim
McCain Albanian Million
McCain Flip Flops
McCain Hero
McCain Womanizing
McCain Infidelity
McCain Lobbyists
McCain registered foreign agent
McCain Spanish Psychiatrist
McCain Gramm
McCain Keating Five
Mccain Senate Ethics Committee complaint pow wife
McCain Brainwashed
McCain Big Oil Lobbyists
McCain Fortune
McCain USS Forrestal
McCain wife of pow duncan hunter
McCain Randy Scheunemann
McCain Randy Scheunemann Russia
McCain Charlie Black Russia
McCain Charlie Black
McCain Torturers' Lobby
McCain Rick Davis
McCain Paul Manafort
McCain Lobbyists
McCain Doubletalk
McCain Torturers' Lobby
McCain Tom Loeffler
McCain Renzi
McCain Peter Madigan
McCain John Green
McCain Vicky Iseman
McCain Arizona Mob
McCain Traitor
McCain I am a War Criminal
McCain War Criminal
McCain Adultery
McCain Military Record
McCain Manchurian
McCain McNasty
McCain Equal Pay
McCain Economics
McCain Phil Gramm Loophole
Phil Gramm Death Bonds
Phil Gramm CFTC
Phil Gramm Enron
Phil Gramm Enron Loophole
McCain Enron Loophole

Of all my research on him, I only found one story that made me like him, the others were all negative or neutral. I don't trust him. He is corrupt in so many ways.

[KalicoKitty]

310. Good post!

Thanks! Bashing Barack Obama makes no sense, unless they want insane McCain aka McBush, McSame, McBomb......

[last_texas_dem]

305. Bitching on a message board about some of Obama's stances and actions

may not make one a heroic, revolutionary patriot, but neither does complaining about people who bitch about Obama's stances and actions. If posting on here is so inconsequential as your post suggests, why devote so much energy to excoriating those whose views differ from yours? After all, these are just postings on an "anonymous online message board." And besides, this place would be awfully boring if all anyone ever did on here was post love letters to Obama.

[Time for change]

311. Amen

I haven't noticed anyone trying to come across as a "heroic revolutionary patriot" by criticizing Obama, but I guess that's a matter of interpretation.

Those who criticize Obama on this board are using it for what it's supposed to be used for. There is a big difference IMO between criticizing Obama from the left (which is almost always the case on this board) and criticizing him from the right (for example, by saying Obama isn't strong enough against terrorism). Criticizing him from the right can be advantageous to McCain and can border on going outside the DU rules. Criticizing him from the left, on the other hand, is probably more advantageous to Obama than to McCain.

To say that our posting is "inconsequential" is disingenuous IMO, especially when one posts here to say that. One may as well say that our votes are inconsequential. I know damn well that when I vote in a presidential election it is extremely unlikely that my vote will change the outcome of the election. But that certainly isn't going to stop me from voting. By the same token, whenever anyone expresses their opinion on our national political situation, on DU or elsewhere, we are contributing to the political dialogue in this country, and that is not inconsequential.

[JVS]

398. Here is the format to look for. These kinds of posts do happen.

1. declaration of degree of outrage
2. declaration of how X is destroying the counytry/freedom
3. insistence on not being a fucking sheep unlike all those who disagree with you
4. (optional) prediction of dire consequences for daring to oppose your view
5 (optional) there is no difference between the party
6. Quote the fouding fathers, or gandhi, or someone who people make lots of statues of.

[autorank]

306. "Straw man" + "bait & switch" w/a little whine (and cheese)

This is a strange post. You tell people to stop acting like they're 'defending freedom' when they
criticize Obama.

That's the straw man. I see criticism of Obama's policies and have not noticed any martyrdom
attached. People do defend their right, as Democrats, to influence the party, platform and
candidate; usually when someone comes along and attacks them for expressing themselves.

The "bait and switch" is from the issue of "criticizing Obama" to what you see as their attitude
in doing so. Since you don't substantiate that, it's a weak argument, based only on your
interpretation. But worse, you attack the person (your generalized heretic)thus switching away from
the real issue, which you bury in insults - the expected process of critiquing a candidate.

Then we get the message that you're really bothered by all this. OK, that's easy. Stop reading
those messages.

Do you have some other point beyond your unsubstantiated interpretation of criticism and your
belief that that criticism is directed at the man, "Obama," and not the policies?

[info being]

318. I guess the point is that we should never criticize Obama

But to phrase it this way makes the case far weaker yet.

[rhett o rick]

324. We should not criticize Obama at this point in the process. Before the primary and after he is

elected are fair game. He is our candidate now, we need him to win, we must support him now.

[autorank]

361. The new "silent majority" n/t

[quickesst]

309. On the other hand......

..sticking one's head in the sand, and pretending everything is as perfect with Obama as his primary fans would have had us believe, does not serve the Democratic Party well either. If there are legitimate criticisms of Obama, they should be addressed. To ignore them with a heaping helping of denial only serves the right-wing slime machine when they use them. I know it's disappointing to many here who have realized that Obama cannot actually walk on water, but he's the Dem candidate, and he will be subject to many criticisms, smears, and outright lies, but remember criticism of concern is not the same as criticism with the purpose of destruction. Thanks.
quickesst

[ut oh]

363. Not a single poster here claimed Obama was 'perfect'

Way to go for absolutism....

No one is claiming here that Obama is perfect, but he is the best candidate we have. And that is significantly better than the other option...

I certainly don't think Obama is perfect... NO POLITICIAN is perfect. However, it is reasonable to support the one who stands closest to your own 'priciples'. Obama is that candidate.

'Criticism of concern' is not what many of the posters here are going for (and I agree is healthy to discuss), it is your second 'criticism with the purpose of destruction' style that many of us are seeing here from particular posters and it what prompted this post (what I interpreted from the OP).

To paraphrase, we have some posters declare... 'OMG he's not trying to block the FISA bill!!!!! I'm not voting for him dammit! Let McCain win, I don't care now since he's not speaking out against FISA!!!!!!!!'

That is divisive and destructive on these boards, as it is the type of response that will garner strong reactions from a majority of members of this forum, because many of us do support Obama and realise that, although he's not perfect, he's our best chance at changing the direction of this country, by not voting for him, those posters who are pissed about FISA (or whatever the topic du jeur is), those posters are promoting the status quo (regardless of their 'principles'). Do you want the status quo??

Another poster mentioned, some of the greates American heros held positions, made decisions that were not 100% agreeable by their 'base', but they were still the RIGHT people for the time and did more good for the country than bad.

Now, I'd consider 'Criticism of concern' more like this:

"Hey guys, I don't like the way Obama's leaning on the FISA bill. What can we do as a community to help sway him to get with those that are trying to stop the bill?"

That would be Criticism of Concern - See a problem, look for ways to solve it in a positive manner. Not just bitch and claim you're now not voting for a candidate, proclaiming it to a board that has a majority of Obama supporters.

[Name removed]

313. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

338. "O-Bot" mentality? Care to expound upon that?

[ElboRuum]

372. Since the post has gone ungently into the grave... allow me to translate.

"You like Obama. I don't. I'm an asshole. Here's an insult to embarrass you publicly."

:eyes:... What's really giving me a serious case of the red-ass is that quite a few of these posters have been here for YEARS. They know the bloody rules, but they seem to have no respect for their spirit because they stop just a half-a-hair short of violating their letter.

[info being]

316. As soon as you agree that doing so makes you at least a perfectly good citizen

[Richardo]

319. I can only recommend this once...

...more's the pity.

:patriot:

[bunnies]

321. Hot Damn!

I love this post!

[rhett o rick]

326. 140 rec's. I question what the goal of those that want to criticize Sen Obama in here?

at this point in the process. We have two choices for president. If you don't like Obama, get out.

Criticize him all you want in the primary process, I did. But he is our candidate. We must support him now or, if you don't, you are supporting McShame. Those are our choices.

After the election, then please go ahead and hold President Obama's feet to the fire. I will.

[redqueen]

327. "Please, just get over yourselves, and ... stop pretending that you're some courageous Tom Paine..."

:spray:

:applause:

[wryter2000]

333. Thank you

Believe it or not, they, too, have the freedom of speech to tell you that you're being divisive and unhelpful.

I'm always amazed that flame bait is protect speech, but calling it flame bait is considered "censorship." In my experience, this is a right wing tactic.

[windoe]

335. I will vote for Obama

and am very hopeful and proud to have such a great candidate for president. Obama is willing to listen to dissent, unlike * who was psychologically unable to- and I hope that during the next administration people will feel free to express their true opinions without being dismissed as being unpatriotic, treacherous or divisive.

It is necessary to express perfectly normal anger and outrage over having civil rights impinged upon, and I do not like being told I cannot express anger, my own personal truth, and sharing open discussions of any sort on a free forum, as I would not attempt to suppress someone else's opinion, though I may not like the way it is expressed.

Expressing ourselves is not going to get in the way of Obama getting elected, in fact free expression is a good sign, as long as hate speech and violent threats are not used. It is part of a process of healing, to let it all out first, then we can convert the energy of this anger into the work that needs to be done.

[Kajsa]

336. Thank You!

:applause:

[Sheets of Easter]

343. You've said everything I've been wanting to say...

recommended.

[jane_pippin]

347. Well said. Thank you.

Wish I could rec it more than once. :thumbsup:

[dolo amber]

348. ...

:patriot: :yourock:

[IronLionZion]

349. Oh Hell Yes!!! K+R+Bookmarked

That's exactly what I've been thinking. So many people here need to get over themselves. We should get some cheap Chinese-made medals to give them or something.

[jus_the_facts]

357. Please, stop pretending that BITCHING ABOUT POSTING ON DU makes you a heroic revolutionary patriot..

:eyes:

[AngryOldDem]

360. GDP lives. n/t

[Papa Boule]

364. Don't you DARE try to cow me into not speaking up for my rights

by mocking, or ridicule, or discounting those who do speak up, or telling me, in your last sentence, that I'm wrong to. Or that I and others like me are puffed up or full of ourselves for doing it.

And that's really the whole point of your post, though you tried to dodge it and not say it directly.

I will not sell away my rights under some misguided, sick, "we must all be good and bend over and take it" candidate or party loyalty, or by veiled or overt suggestions that my speaking out against having my rights trampled may cost the party an election. That's nothing but a slithery attempt to intimidate, shame, and silence.

HOW DARE YOU.

I'll stop now before I start typing what I REALLY think about your post.

[MrScorpio]

366. Damn skippy

Work it!

[Name removed]

367. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ElboRuum]

378. At one point or another...

...you have to decide what you want to accomplish. If you feel strongly enough about it, sometimes you have to make some difficult choices. I think what you're missing is that most of the shit said against Obama here is often said in the absence of any framework that might be considered "constructive". Now this is the kind of crap we need to avoid, whether you agree or not.

If you have to have it explained to you;

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

So long as it remains in that framework, I doubt that there would be much in the way of concern about any of this. But it is clear over the past week or so, that because Obama is the Democratic candidate, and we are in the Democratic party, that anything said is fair game. Note that this goes completely against the last sentence, because it is just this type of rhetoric that echoes the tone of our opponents. When a candidate is chosen as the nominee, we are expected on some level to close ranks and unify, and that was made completely clear when the primaries ended.

So I refer you back to my initial statements. At one point or another you have to decide what you want to accomplish. If you feel strongly enough about it, sometimes you have to make some difficult choices. If your goal is criticism, that is one thing. I too am not happy with the FISA legislation that has so many here posting screeds against Obama. But he is still our candidate.

It is the goal of most of the people on this board to see that Obama gets elected in November. That is what I want to accomplish and I feel very strongly about it, so I do have a difficult choice to make. More than enough time has been given to "unify" the party behind the candidate as it applies to DU. And while I would love to see all of those intent on division refocus themselves to the task at hand, time for that has been and passed, and it is time to move on. Those who choose to be divisive, we must leave in the past they cling to. More and more people on DU have become weary of this "noble show of concern". After a certain period of time, it ceases to be concern and becomes nothing more than disruption.

The "conscientious objector" crap that no one sporting a few working neurons would accept as sincere is what's bullshit.

[sui generis]

383. I will continue to question Obama on specific issues

that, sir, quoting the rules to me or not, is that.

I don't give a crap how that makes anyone else feel, nor how it is perceived. When I ask a question or question a policy it is because I want an answer.

That is what I want to accomplish. Having said that, there is nothing ANYONE can do on DU that would make me behave differently. I have to believe that my pursuit of information makes me an informed voter, and especially I am not going to allow you or anyone here to qualify questioning our candidate as an activity of the lowest common denominator.

Sorry - generalizing is ugly no matter who does it.

[ElboRuum]

408. Fine...

If you do so in the full honoring of the rules that YOU AGREED TO ABIDE when you first signed up, there is no reason that you cannot do precisely that.

But I know the difference between criticism and concern trolling, and when you come in here denigrating Obama supporters as though they are members of some Kool-Aid cult, well WTF do you think I'll think it is? Will I consign myself to thinking that this constitutes your noble "pursuit of information". Fat chance.

You keep doing what you're doing, and I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Mmm-kay?

[sui generis]

413. sorry

FUCK the rules. As quoted by people like you. School marms untie!

And quit being so god damned persecuted. There is a reason you have the opportunity to ignore me using technology. I advise you to use it.

mmmkay?

[ElboRuum]

423. As quoted?

Heh-heh. They ain't my rules. I've never put a person on ignore nor will I start now. Mmm-kay?

[1Hippiechick]

424. PROBLEM: your response gets lost in this morass of sophomoric babble - make it a topic - & kick!

[Yael]

370. Huge K&R. Would rec it twice if I could.

[ElboRuum]

371. I am continually amazed...

...at how many people still thing "freedom of speech" means freedom from consequence of speech. Is "freedom of speech" the adult equivalent of "ollie ollie oxen free"?

K+R for common sense.

[lark]

373. TY - You're wrong

:toast:

[blues90]

382. Jesus , what a load . NT

[crankychatter]

390. have I kicked this lovely rant lately? - NT

[JVS]

399. But... but... but... I can quote people from 200 odd years ago who spouted great plattitudes while..

going home to rape their slaves after their fancy meetings!

[anigbrowl]

400. Kick, with relief.

Legitimate concern for our institutions is a great thing. Unfortunately, it all too often devolves into histrionics and posing.

[Zodiak]

401. No one here has proclaimed themselves a hero or a revolutionary

Patriot, maybe.

Even your made-up quotes do not support your premise. If the discussion starts on a false premise that is also a mischaracterization and simplification of your opponent's position, do you think productive discussion will result? What that even the intention?

People have reservations about these recent moves by the Obama campaign and the party as a whole, and it is dividing and fracturing our coalition. This is not the fault of those who have reservations, but the fault or the leadership for putting Obama in this position, a failure of Obama's campaign to understand what mordant holds his coalition together, and a failure of those who refuse to see that making Obama blind to the trepidations of his supporters does not help him one bit.

[27inCali]

402. RIGHT. THE. FUCK. ON.

I would try to add to this, but there's really no point, this is so dead on.

[kid a]

411. fuckin a - kick

[kid a]

412. kick again - i'd pin it too if i could

[sui generis]

417. well at the risk of getting a(dmin)-bombed

I have to say I think there is a completely fucked bias here in the deletes in the name of keeping the peace.

Whatever - moving on now. I have nothing further to add - the tone of the OP bullshit says it all for this thread.

gaaaaaah. And I'm not even anti-Obama but I am anti-Followers of Obama to the bloody fucking end.

[kid a]

420. you really are clueless, aren't you

[sui generis]

422. oh will the kindergarden name calling never stop.

:eyes:

[sui generis]

418. please stop pretending that you're persecuted if you support Obama

n fucking t

[kid a]

419. idiot alert

[sui generis]

421. edited to add

that certain of his capital F Followers are certainly worth persecuting - I openly despise mindless cultist idiots in the democratic party.

You are a detriment to Obama, not an asset, and you take away from the discussion with simpleton posts like "idiot alert".

You aren't even worthy of alerting the mods.