Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Democratic left turn or right turn now....and who said we had to "go right" to win?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:32 PM
Original message
Democratic left turn or right turn now....and who said we had to "go right" to win?
I have wondered about when it became common knowledge that we had to "go right" to win. I never paid much attention to that trend, except to be mildly curious.

Then came Iraq, and it really made a lot of us wonder why so many in our party were supporting that invasion. Were they fooled, or were they actually in agreement, complicit.

It wasn't just the war, it was the trade deals, the bankruptcy bill, and for the last couple of years...the FISA mess.

It always ended up with the theme that we were just too liberal, that we did not understand the reality that we had to go along with the right wing to get along. It was always our fault, we were called liberals, activists, fringe. We just did not understand. We actually believed that by standing up for things you believed in you might just win.

This blogger presents a scenario about what was really at stake in 2003 between the think tank consultants in our party, and the rest of us. It is interesting the way he presents it.

The Feud Between the Democratic Leadership Council and the Democratic National Committee

Some of the conflict between Dean and the DLC stems from the 2004 campaign. In that campaign Dean was asking a very relevant question: What if the whole Hollywood production that has been titled “America’s Right Turn,” was nothing more than a phantom, a marketing creation, a fad, right up there with Pet Rocks and Cabbage Patch dolls? What if the strategy of the Democratic Party was merely like one of those bad Hollywood sequels, Rocky VIII, Crocodile Dundee Does Kansas City, Superman Redux? What if there was an error on the part of all the pundits who have made American politics a cacophonous squawk like a huge flock of crows descending on a particularly foul and rotting corpse?


What if our party and our country really did not want to be dragged kicking and screaming to the right? Trouble is the media's message was always with those who preached the gospel of moving right.

Dean officially announced his presidential candidacy in June 2003, fully a year ahead of the convention and half a year before the first primaries. In his announcement he threw down a gauntlet to his own party saying, “Most importantly, I have wanted my party to stand up for what we believe in again.” What Howard Dean was trying to tell us was that the rise of the Republican Counterrevolution could be a much more complex and sinister phenomenon that the mere fact that one bright morning in America people had suddenly awakened and decided to become Republicans.

Howard Dean showed that Liberal America still had a pulse, and a pretty strong one at that. All the prescriptions and therapies being advocated by the self-designated care givers such as “slowing down” and “relaxing,” “toning down” the advocacy may in fact be doing the patient more harm than good.


Oh, dear God, do you remember the times they told him to "tone down" his message. He was not even a liberal, and he could see what had happened. We had been hijacked.

After the Democrats won in 2006, you would have thought it was a time for rejoicing, but the DLC-types were determined to poison the water. Former Clinton aide and now-television-commentator James Carville fired a shot at Dean during an election night analysis on CNN. It surprised me that a person for whom numbers represent the main weapons of a well-stocked arsenal should come out shooting without any ammunition other than remarks from some anonymous Republicans (his wife, maybe). After comparing Dean to Donald Rumsfeld (as low a blow as one Democrat can make against another)


The writer, who has written for The NYT Magazine, The Nation, In These Times, and others....has written an extensive article covering several of the problems in the party.

The FISA battle is part of this division in the party in my opinion. I think Pelosi and Reid could have waited until we had a new president. But they did not. This is not a good thing to put Obama through right now, and I think many of us resent what they did. He's being put on the spot by party leaders.

Many of us feel there is a certain amount of CYA involved for the Democrats, and that is tragic. Some of the other instances where they ignored their base were fading into the background in our excitement over our candidate. But that is not how the game is played.

They are changing the law to "conform to past conduct".

TURLEY: Well, this is more like a one-man staring contest. I mean, the Democrats never really were engaged in this. In fact, they repeatedly tried to cave in to the White House, only be stopped by civil libertarians and bloggers. And each time they would put it on the shelf, wait a few months, they did this before, reintroduced it with Jay Rockefeller‘s support, and then there was another great, you know, dustup and they pulled it back.

I think they‘re simply waiting to see if the public‘s interest will wane and we‘ll see that tomorrow, because this bill has, quite literally, no public value for citizens or civil liberties. It is reverse engineering, though the type of thing that the Bush administration is famous for, and now the Democrats are doing—that is to change the law to conform to past conduct.

It‘s what any criminal would love to do. You rob a bank, go to the legislature, and change the law to say that robbing banks is lawful."

McJoan's diary on FISA


Waiting in the wings to once again be sure he is from the "policy shop" of the Democrats....is Al From. He has an op ed in the WSJ advocating free trade. He makes it clear that his group is still relevant and still in control. He says that with just a few minor tweaks to social programs we will all be able to love free trade as much as he does.

Confessions of a Pro-Trade Democrat

There is no doubt that many Democrats worry about reducing trade barriers. That is at least in part because the Bush administration has given trade a bad name by repeatedly resisting efforts to strengthen the guarantees of health insurance, job training, placement and portable pensions that can help workers cope with change. Under such circumstances, many hard-working Americans who are nervous about their economic futures are understandably wary of additional competition.

But globalization is here to stay. We need to respond with American ingenuity and optimism, rather than fear. Our biggest economic challenge is to create a path toward opportunity and mobility in the global economy. We need to build on the success of our exporters, and find a strategy that helps U.S. workers and businesses beat our competitors. The next president also needs to forge a new social contract that deals with the anxieties that often make middle-class families resistant to trade.

With such new policies in place, hopefully Democrats will welcome low tariffs and open trade. Once middle-class anxieties are addressed, most people will come to accept that our country is better off with an open economy. We need trade agreements that share the benefits across the economic spectrum, and also include sensible labor and environmental standards.


This group with Al From as boss was a leading advocate of the Iraq invasion.

They are not going to be willing to give up the "right turn" they have made.

The FISA bill will pass as is. There is going to be a confrontation about Iran before long.

Just think about it. What if it was all hype about that "right turn"? They managed to get us into one tragic war, and if indications are right...the powers that be might go along with another.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well said MF
I could not wrap my brain around a way to digest what was going on with FISA, but this post feels just about right to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Still not sure I have the grasp of it. It is a powerful rightward pull.
More than just one or two or a few.

Just when we start feeling good about things...pow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. MF, I think we both know
the DLC will not go down easily. I think you said (I hope!) that the DLC's paws are all over the FISA vote that went down in the house. I know it is a trite thing to say, but changing the status quo is never going to be easy and we will be taking one step forward two steps back many times.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Movement is Only Allowed in One Direction
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Good graphic.
Keep going in that direction until you crash. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. "put it on the shelf, wait a few months ... reintroduced it with Jay Rockefeller..."
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 11:35 PM by dailykoff
It almost sounds like they're determined to bury something before they're out of power, something really big, that Rocky is somehow attached to.. now what could that be?

hint: I'm guessing it's 110 stories big.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-23-08 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Amen, MF. I cannot agree more.
One of the theories out there is that Pelosi feels that opposing this FISA bill could cause us to lose an additional 10 seats (that we would have gained as pickups in swing states) in the House.

Ten seats? We're going to provide Bush Co. cover for ten House seats? We're going to allow unchecked domestic spying WITHOUT warrants for ten House seats when we already have a sizeable majority?

O'Really? And who would occupy those ten House seats? More Blue Dogs? More "Democrats" that vote like Republicans? Do we REALLY NEED MORE OF THESE?

Keep in mind that Pelosi supported Al Wynn and opposed the more progressive Donna Edwards (who won with strong grassroots support). Now we have Obama endorsing DLCer John Barrow over the more progressive Regina Thomas. Yeah, it's quid pro quo for Barrow's endorsement, but I would so love to stick it to all the establishment-types by helping Regina Thomas win the Democratic primary.

If she wins the Dem primary, she WILL WIN the Congressional seat. It is one of few CDs that is drawn for a Democrat. The district is also 40% African-American.

If you have a few dollars, http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19682">please send them Regina's way. She's got a tough fight ahead, but she is exactly the type of progressive Democrat we need to elect to replace these DLCers/Blue Dogs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Donna Edwards, though brand new....voted no to the FISA bill
Too many of those I have donated to through DFA and Act Blue....are just caving. Many are no longer making any effort to appear progressive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. MF, I fear it's all a charade. Just enough cover to let the one party system doing the
bidding of its masters.

Obama's moves these past couple of weeks are NOT about moving to some imaginary "center". This is NOT what the American PEOPLE want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. Dean was improperly defined as "left" by the media based upon one policy... the Iraq Invasion
it's all about the money

in 04 I was looking up alternative fuels for vehicles...

Found an electric car company that only existed on paper, soliciting investors....

On the front page of the website?

Dick Cheney, shaking hands with the CEO, a prominent investor

When the "right" people stand to profit sufficiently, anything can happen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tiptoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. 1988-2004 "The Democrats actually won all five elections by an average 8-9m votes. Don't believe it?
...Run the numbers yourself."

Click    HISTORICAL ELECTION ANALYSIS   for access to the Election Calculator, 1988-2004

What if the whole Hollywood production that has been titled “America’s Right Turn,” was nothing more than a phantom, a marketing creation, a fad...

What if our party and our country really did not want to be dragged kicking and screaming to the right? Trouble is the media's message was always with those who preached the gospel of moving right. ...

Just think about it. What if it was all hype about that "right turn"? They managed to get us into one tragic war, and if indications are right...the powers that be might go along with another.


For those of you not familiar with the Democratic Leadership Council a brief aside is in order. In 1985 a group dominated by conservative Southern Democrats including Al Gore, Chuck Robb, Sam Nunn, John Breaux, and an Arkansas governor named William Jefferson Clinton organized the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) with the initial mission of securing the 1988 Democratic presidential nomination for a moderate Southerner.

By 1990 Bill Clinton had became chair of the DLC. His first act was to preside over the formulation of the 1990 New Orleans Declaration. This document would become the blueprint for Clinton’s future and that of the Democratic Party. The most telling of these principles are:
We believe the Democratic Party’s fundamental mission is to expand opportunity, not government.

We believe that economic growth is the prerequisite to expanding opportunity for everyone. The free market, regulated in the public interest**, is the best engine of general prosperity.



More than a fad and mere hype: there was also Election Fraud.


**Is this an example of DLC-Bill Clinton's principle of "regulating in the public interest":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6384550&mesg_id=6385943

Read opening text and see the video of Keith Olbermann's June 18, 2008
John McCain's Connection to Big Oil & The Enron Loophole
with background on the Chairwoman of the pre-Clinton Commodities Futures Trading Commission (Wendy Gramm, wife of McCain-advisor and former TX Senator Phil Gramm) and her influence in making "hands off Enron" official regulatory policy of the CFTC that Clinton inherited.

Then note the highlighted words of KO, before he "fast forwards to the year 2000", when
Enron got a law passed containing what is now known as the Enron loophole. Where Gramm deregulated individual trades, the Enron loophole deregulated entire markets... ONLINE markets.

Enron had just started it's own ONLINE MARKET...and SET ITS SIGHTS on the STATE of California.

Over the next six months CA suffered 38 rolling blackouts, as Enron used artificial shortages, bogus deals, and total knowledge of the market AS SOLE OWNER OF ITS OWN ONLINE MARKET to TREBLE California's energy bills.

In the dark, regulators had less power than California did, leaving Enron laughing about it. "

"Clinton never undid Gramm's changes."

Presumably Pres. Bill Clinton had means after Wendy Gramm departed the CFTC, but his apparent inaction on CFTC "hands off regulatory policy" re Enron/Lay left CEO Ken Lay's "oil futures trading" activities unchecked between 1992 and 2000, preliminary to Lay's success at getting new law passed in 2000 that led to the gaming of California's energy markets months later at an eventual cost to CA of $11 Billion (courtesy Pete Wilson, Lay and "public servant" stooge Sch*zenegger, secretly in cahoots with Lay a year before running for governor of CA and, within 72 hours upon taking which office, settling Lt. Gov Bustamante's lawsuit to recover the filched $9 Billion).

According to KO's report, John McCain, too, appears unwilling to take regulatory action in the public interest to close the "Enron Loophole".

DLC-Bill Clinton -- recommender of GWBush advisor Mark Penn for Hillary's campaign ("Hillary Endorses McCain above Obama - Again and Again") -- has something in common with McCain: inaction against unregulated business interests at great expense to the public interest, including $4 gas.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. One question: Why did Pelosi and Reid bring the FISA vote up again now?
Was there a special reason? Are they doing it because they know all good Democrats fall in line? Again and again?

Why did they do it right now with so much at stake?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. It is indeed a phantom, a marketing creation like so many others...
...it is the hijacking of reality itself to create a completely counterfeit reality.

We are victims of mind war, and, collectively, have yet to develop the proper resistance.

Thank you for this post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. You've Got 3 Ideas, or Threads Running There, MF
I take issue with this one: "Globalization is here to stay."

I don't think so. The costs are so outweighing the benefits that the entire corporate construct will collapse of its own weight and contradictions.

Nation after nation will turn inward, seeking the security of knowing that its citizens will have enough high quality food, water, medicine, shelter and energy because it is all home-grown or produced.

The corporations will stop playing "catch me if you can". Multinationals will be locked out or broken up. We will have defensible borders--protecting us from corporate pirates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hey, Al From said that....not me....after all he started all this mess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. how so?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. We already have seen what "right" gets us; Bill Clinton......
.....We need a SHARP left turn, maybe kinda like a FDR? Is that to far left for DU'rs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. yeah, the first Democrat elected more the once since FDR
And I would enjoy yet another discussion with anyone on just how Centrist FDR was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I take it the FDR comment was satire?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. no, it wasn't satire
It's well documented that FDR co-opted policy position from the left to keep the left at bay politically and to save capitalism.

He was a proponent of welfare reform, once stating "the business of relief must end."

In 1932 he ran on a Free Trade platform.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'll agree with you on most all of your points, but you have to........
..........admit that he was the most liberal president of the 20th century with LBJ a far second. I wish we could do better in this country, but even if Obama is the great liberal that a lot of people seem to think he is (I don't think so) he would still be a far cry from FDR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. he was a product of his circumstances
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 01:49 PM by wyldwolf
We have not faced anything as dire as the great depression since then, so no president has felt the need to take such dramatic action.

He was an opportunist, but not in a bad way. There were some far left and far right radicals in that time making serious political inroads. FDR co-opted some of the left's rhetoric to diminish that influence.

FDR was the original "triangulator." He appeased Southern segregationists in exchange for them supporting the New Deal. He appeased socialist-leaning progressives for their electoral support. Classic DLC-style triangulation. Today's progressives would have been all over FDR for that.

Johnson was another classic centrist. He tempered his conservative leanings on national defense and military matters with liberal positions on civil rights and social reforms.

Obama, there's another story! He's a supporter of Bill Clinton's welfare reform, believes any number of the Johnson-era social reforms haven't worked as advertised, and is a proponent of private social security companion accounts. In "Audacity" he speaks glowingly about the Third Way in several passages.

But to compare anyone with FDR is futile because we aren't faced with those times. FDR was of average intelligence and lived a very privileged life. His circumstances forced him to become a great president. I have no doubt given the same set of circumstance any Dem we've had since would have risen to the occasion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. Upholding the Constitution is not left or right
and impeachment to uphold the rule of law, is this left or right? So frustrating to hear all the memes that frame these issues in terms of partisanship. Maybe I just don't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. The whole game is rigged.
There is no viable Left anymore.

There are merely a few remaining in Congress who still speak for us and for our Constitution.

This is now a slide into a capitalist fascist state which does the bidding of the corporate-elite.

We who hold out hope for a left turn are the suckers.

There's my two cents on the issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. right versus left
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 01:54 PM by Two Americas
Great work as always madfloridian.

I would caution us against using the right wing propagandists definitions of what is right and what is left, since they have defined those in a false way to advance their agenda.

For example, war is not necessarily right or left. Were we invaded by an extreme right wing nation, defending the country from takeover would not be right wing, politically speaking. The invasion and occupation of Iraq (I think that calling it a "war" reinforces the administration's lies about it) it so happens advances corporate interests and a right wing domestic agenda. If it did the opposite - resisted an invasion of the US by a right wing country, would we not support it?

For another example, you are a moderate I believe and I am about as left wing as they come, yet we agree, and Dean who is moderate agrees, on the issue of caving in to corporatism and the right wing. So that issue - free and open democracy not corrupted by corporate interests, and strong opposition to the extreme right wing does not depend strictly upon right or left.

Likewise, defense of the Constitution is not left wing or right wing.

The right wingers have defined right and left in such a way that ANYTHING that stands in the way of corporate and big money interests is portrayed as "extreme left wing."

It is the Democrats who are moving toward appeasing corporations and big money that is the problem - "free market" libertarianism, breaks and immunities for the wealthy and powerful, privatization, and corruption. All Democrats should oppose that, regardless of how much to the left or to the right they may be.

I think that very few people even here at DU have a very good definition for what is politically to the left and what is politically to the right. The opposition knows - the Republicans consistently and reliably and ruthlessly represent the interests and desires of the wealthy and powerful few, and try to destroy everything that is of benefit or gives any power or wealth to the other 90% of the population. Yet we have no consensus here that we should take an oppositional position to that, placing labor over capital and defending the public interest against the ravages and predations of the wealthy and powerful few. The Democratic party at one time did take such a stand, and despite the modern idea that "perfectionism" or idealism work against electoral success, those times when the party took strong left wing stands were also the time when the party had the greatest electoral success.

Yet I have been in several arguments right here over the last few days with people claiming that idealism and standing strongly for traditional party principles and ideals hurts "our" chances of "winning" - that the two work against each other, and that we must choose either principles or practical success. That is the compromising mentality that is empowering the right wing and weakening the Democratic party. It is similar to the arguments the right wingers make that tell us we must choose between security or liberty. These are false choices. There is no security without liberty - tyranny is not "security" - and respect for liberty makes us more secure, not less, and in the same way as Democrats, standing on ideals and principles makes us more likely to win elections, not less likely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
27. Howard Dean was correct.
America has been subjected to a long, systematic disinformation campaign intended to change the way we see ourselves. Progressivism and liberalism have always been strong threads in the fabric of society. But the whole "nattering class" has been trying to convince us otherwise. Take Carville & Matalin, for example. Matalin pulls rightward from the right, Carville pulls rightward from slightly left of center, or at least left of where the media would have us believe the center is--a point that is actually somewhat right of center, as that center used to be defined. Thus is the apparent paradox of the Carville-Matalin axis resolved. They are both pulling in the same direction. They are both working to accomplish a rightward drift in the political discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. ...but who with their head screwed on correctly would be watching Carville/Matalin?????????
Who . . .????

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. Dem candidates run to the center because
too many voters in this country are stuck on stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Okay, there're a couple things that are a little off with this.
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 06:02 PM by BullGooseLoony
First, I think you're confusing political climates. 2004 was much, much different than 2008. Dean's approach was dead-on correct for that time- he had to hold the line, and he did. He set us up for this election by maintaining the Dems' dignity and integrity.

Secondly, though, I don't think Obama is making a "right turn" or a "left turn"- I think Dean corrected shifted the Dem approach to a populist, farther left direction, and Obama is, in fact, maintaining it for the most part. I'm not sure that the FISA stuff is particularly representative of that, but you have to attribute Obama not reacting with more fire to it to the fact that he is running for President. He simply can't do that, certainly not for every issue. He has to focus.

I think Obama is running a Dean redux campaign. Trust it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. The fact that he IS running for President means He must stand up on FISA.
Good leaders don't start leading "tomorrow". They lead today.

We'll see how much fight the CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER has in him.

I mean, If this one isn't his baby, what the hell is??



madfloridian, I don't know why Pelosi and Reid are moving now. This is a high-level Democratic party payback for something. Who knows what?

A lot of dollars got spread around by the telecoms. And that's what we KNOW about.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. ...doesn't look like Obama is standing up on FISA . . . ???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Any chance that. . .
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 09:51 PM by defendandprotect
there's a lot you don't want to see . . . or acknowledge . . . ??

First . . . you're absolutely right on this one re Dean ---
Dean's 2004 approach was dead-on correct for that time- he had to hold the line, and he did.
He set us up for this election by maintaining the Dems' dignity and integrity.


I'd also say that I think he was the first to show that the internet could be used to awaken
citizens to the need to BUY BACK their own government. He did it well. And, Obama is now
using it. Dean led the way!


Re this, however . . .

Secondly, though, I don't think Obama is making a "right turn" or a "left turn"-
I think Dean correctly shifted the Dem approach to a populist, farther left direction,
and Obama is, in fact, maintaining it for the most part.
I'm not sure that the FISA stuff is particularly representative of that, but you have to attribute Obama not reacting with more fire to it to the fact that he is running for President.
He simply can't do that, certainly not for every issue. He has to focus.

I think Obama is running a Dean redux campaign. Trust it.


Obviously the fear is that Obama is making a turn towards the BIG MONEY MEN who have been
pushed at him over the last 10 days, beginning with the Clintons . . . who, btw, want $10
million repaid to their account . . . with obama's help!!

Giving up public financing means we will have a less democratic election.
Obama's position on FISA is highly worrisome ---
including his position on the SC decision re rape of young children/death penalty ---
especially since Obama teaches Constitutional law!!!

That's a lot of moving to the RIGHT for just a few days!




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
30. their belief in globalization is essentially an irrational religious belief
Positions stated without any evidence, except the belief that "globalization" is good. Absolute fucking psychosis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. ...by coincidence. . . "globalization is merely the harvesting of slave labor" . . . !!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's a DLC crock . . . but keep in mind that we are dealing with a fascist GOP . . .
anyone want to ignore that point --- ????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
37. America is a militaristic cult...
...and you have to talk tough to win its presidency. Even in a year when most Americans say we're headed in the wrong direction, we are still suckers for smell of leather and the sound of self-righteous rage. There are no melting pots in our anthem, only rockets and bombs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. Republicans constantly say Dems should moved to the right....when the Dems do
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 11:27 PM by LaPera
the republicans then say, see there's no difference between Republicans or Democrats, but we're better at national security so vote republican....typical republican manipulation of the Dems...

Like when the republicans always tell Dems the American people don't like attack politics, the Dems say OK they won't do it, then the republicans immediately begin their attacks, smears & lies against the Dems.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. When all movement is to the right, the left is "backward".
In that case, all forward movement is a variation of "rightward" and the options given are "to the right this way, or that?" Neither way is the way of "change" - not in any meaningful sense.

Change requires, first, to STOP the rightward movement. E.g. to stop this FISA bill in its tracks would help. It'd stop the rightward advance on one front. But recognize, that'd only be a delaying tactic. What, so it could be rewritten and represented to the electorate in a less explicitly fascist format? In other words, to acquiesce to yet another incremental rightward advance - but under the pretense that because it isn't as explicitly fascist as previous attempts, it's actually somehow "leftist"? That it actually represents "change"? Or rather, to STOP this FISA bill so that next year, after the Dems are in power, the entire concept can be revisited, from scratch, and even given a new name or acronym, eliminating the entire apparatus built by Bushco, the entire apparatus built on lies. That would be left. That would be "change".

The same thing can be said about EVERYTHING that's been going down, about every issue on which the Dems have caved on or are eager to cave on.

You want to "go left" on trade agreements? You don't do that by looking at it in rightward terms, by voicing how for or against "free trade" one is, how for or against some un-nuanced "protectionism" one is. One recognized that there in fact is trade between nations, and has to be trade between nations, but that *fair trade* requires a level playing field in socio-economic terms. For example, there is NO fair trade between a country that allows free associations (read: unions) amongst workers, and for collective agreements between employers/employees, and another country which DOES NOT allow free associations and collective agreements. There's no fair trade between a cuntry that has a universal medical plan that covers all citizens, all workers, and one which does not, and where medical costs are out of reach. And so on. Even to THINK about these matters is a "leftward" thing - and to discuss these matters requires a wider vocabulary than exists in the current mainstream political dialogue, or narrative.

oh well, ... anyway I like your posts madflorian. You do well by us.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yes, and how DID all movement start going to the right?
It's a question our party needs to answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thank you, Glenn Greenwald, for keeping on about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
42. It's a combination of educaton and lemming mentality
If you're going to re-educate the masses you need to own the means of propaganda......and that is proportionately harder to own today than a 100 years ago. Back then a pamphlet or a newspaper could ignite a nation. Now, it's essential to control the spew coming from broadcast media. And that ain't gonna' happen! Also, we are increasingly a stupid, lemming nation. We cannot discern who is beating us over the head in order to look for an escape route. That's why Americans will (by the tune of 85%) scream about how bad things are and then about half of them say they will vote for McCain. If the right has it's way, it would like to shut down what info people may get (the few who aren't total morons) from teachers regarding the supposed differences between Dem and Repub parties. Info to the public is Repub/Facist enemy #1. It's only if this country descends into total chaos and civil war that any other voice will ever come through. Bottom line: get use to being a peon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC