the ads WORKED among vets!!!!! according to CBS

[buycitgo]

he's lost, and dumbo's gained NINE points since the convention

CBS nightly news is covering this now, as I type

what to make of this?

[Democat]

1. It's all part of the secret strategy, just like in 2002

:(

[Julien Sorel]

9. There was no "secret strategy"

in 2002, besides trying to survive an extremely disadvantageous electoral landscape. If only ignorance and volume were inversely related.

[Democat]

24. Maybe you weren't here in 2002?

Many Koolaid drinkers told those of us who questioned the 2002 election strategy that we just needed to wait for the secret plan. The Democrats were going to fight back, they were just waiting for the right time.

It sounded a lot like what some are saying now.

Just keep waiting for our side to attack. Just keep waiting.

Anyone who was here during the 2002 election should be smarter than trusting the "secret plan" theory.

[Julien Sorel]

41. I don't recall seeing any talk about a "secret plan"

in 2002, certainly not from the DNC itself. In the wake of 9/11, any "attacking" the Democrats did would have been painted as unpatriotic and disloyal -- that's just what the environment was like. So while, to the immature mind, there was some brilliant strategy the Democrats could have used, but were just too stupid and cowardly to try, the reality is there are times when rolling with the punches is the best you can do.

As for "waiting for our side to attack," our side has attacked. And attacked. And attacked. It isn't getting any coverage. As I have pointed out here before, the Kerry campaign + 527 money have spent roughly as much money on negative ads as have the Bush people. I'm not sure what more "attacking" should be done. Kerry has 75 million to spend between now and the election, yet you want him to spend it defending himself against these absurd charges, while somehow attacking Bush, and make the money last for the entirety of the election. Of course if he ran out of money, or ended up being heavily outspent by Bush near the end of the election, the same group of chicken littles would be screeching about money mismanagement.


Foxtrot Oscar.

[Hobarticus]

2. Among the vets they polled, that is...

As this story develops, this'll go away.

[info being]

3. Uh, which ads and what are you talking about?

[buycitgo]

6. sorry........in hurry.......swift vets

[buycitgo]

4. ABC giving short shrift to Kerry

mentioned that Kerry struck back, THEN concentrated on Bush response

[buycitgo]

10. first, ONeill, then THURLOW!

then, they quote thurlow's and kerry's citation

THEN they have thurlow on again, saying KERRY wrote the citation

THEN Elliott, talking about false reports, but NOT saying that he DENIED he said it?

they mention, at the end, that wealthy republicans involved

total BULLSHIT

completely slanted to put Bush in best possible light, while feigning balance

despicable

[Ghetto_Boy]

5. Never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter

[Shopaholic]

8. The bad news is that the Swift Boat Vets for Bush are coming

out with a new ad tomorrow. Just denouncing this in a speech isn't going to get Kerry anywhere--he needs to allow MoveOn.org to hit them hard and he needs to run his own damn ads to refute this bullshit and get down and dirty since it's very apparent that the SBV aren't going to go away and are going to keep it up now they know it's working.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Allow? Kerry has no control over Move On.

So they are free to do as they please.

[Shopaholic]

27. What I mean is. . .

that the next time MoveOn comes out with an ad the Kerry Campaign needs to keep their mouth shut and let it run. I know why they denounced the MoveOn ad--they thought that by denouncing it the Bush Campaign would follow suit and denounce the SBV ads but whoever thought that had to be out of their fucking mind because this is how these SOB's win--this is what they do--they use every single, dirty, underhanded trick in the book to win and it's WORKING. And if the Kerry Campaign doesn't wake up and realize that these motherfuckers do not play fair and never will we're going to lose. And if we lose this country and the world will lose too. Sorry for the rant but I'm furious right now and I can't figure out who I'm the maddest at--the Kerry campaign, these liars, or the media for continuing to kiss *'s ass even when they KNOW that this is all a pack of lies. What exactly does Shrub have on these media folks--pictures of them with goats--now I know why he was so damn fascinated with that book about goats in the Florida classroom!!!!

[tblue37]

61. No, this isn't right.

What he did was disassociate himself from the Moveon ad, as John McCain insisted. The Moveon ad still runs, and Moveon will continue to run appropriate ads, but Kerry has "risen above the fray." Manwhile, McCain also insisted that Bush denounce the "dishonest and dishonorable" swiftboat ads, but Bush and his spokespersons are refusing to do that.

Result: Both ads still run. The Moveon ad is clearly based on facts. McCain did not call Moveon's ad "dishonest," as he called the swiftboat ad. Kerrry immediately distanced himself from the swiftboat ad, making Bush look even worse for refusing to do so with the swiftboat ad.

This one is a point for Kerry.

[NightOwwl]

65. Late on responding..

but I think you are just plain wrong. Did you think Bush would follow Kerry's lead after Kerry denounced the ad? Of course not. Why do you think Kerry would be that gullible? Wait until you see a clip of him saying "Bring it on" in his speech yesterday. Look at his eyes when he says it. If I were Bush, I'd be peeing in my pants right now.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. I agree one hundred per cent

they have the ability to stuff anything they want out of the mainstream and the public eye. They are taking the initiative to do what they like to Kerry, whether or not it is true and that it is all a lie simply does not matter-- to them or to the media. They have done it over and over and over. and they have been successful as we can see by the polls. It should NOT be, given the evil of the Bush administration but they have managed to do it and that is the truth. It is not a slur against Kerry. It is plain and simple truth and this is what needs to be fought against. Vigorously. We cannot sit back and wait for a couple of days because they are ready before we can even reply with another lie that will get the headlines and the attention of the stupid sheeple in the US. Who can remember anything about Ken Lay, or Cheney's secret meetings, or any number of egregious assaults on the American people perpetrated by the
Bush? They are gone in a week--down the memory hole while another emerges to take it's place.

It is wrong to give them this opportunity, imo and not immediately crush them into the ground. Mr. Nice guy does NOT work with these people. It simply does NOT. We cannot stick up our noses and claim the "high ground"

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Last week they had Kerry UP one point over Bush in the same poll.

So that means that really it's been a wash.

[DeadHead67]

12. This is only the BEGINNING of this story. . .

. . .Wait till the story all comes out, that is if the 'liberal' media does the follow-up.

[MoonRiver]

13. DO YOU HAVE A LINK? Or something to substantiate that spin?

:eyes:

[otohara]

54. Here...

The appearance of his fellow Vietnam veterans at the Democratic convention helped John Kerry’s support among veterans, but the recent attacks on his Vietnam service may have moved veterans’ support back toward George W. Bush now. Kerry is running well behind his opponent among veterans; now, 55 percent of veterans back Bush, and 37 percent back Kerry. A few weeks ago, both candidates were tied among veterans.

PRESIDENTIAL CHOICE AMONG VETERANS
(Registered voters)

Now
Kerry-Edwards
37%
Bush-Cheney
55%
Nader-Camejo

1%

Post-Democratic convention
Kerry-Edwards
46%
Bush-Cheney
46%
Nader-Camejo
1%
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/19/opinion/polls/main637122.shtml

[buycitgo]

14. NBC

giving more time to ONeill and Scotty M than RASSMAN!

didn't see the whole thing, but, once again, the advantage seems to go to the ones who MAKE the charges!!!!

HEY

KERRY!!!!!


can you LEARN something from this?????

start going after his f************ FLIGHT PHYSICAL!!!!!!


FORCE him to go on the DEFENSIVE!!!!!


that's the ONLY thing that works

DEfense does not WORK!

I saw bits of all three broadcasts, and they ALL favored bush, giving MUCH more airtime to the LIARS

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. This is doubtful

especially with the escalating recriminations.

Bush may pick up some support from vets, but in the final analysis, most people will see that Bush was a full fledged chicken shit draft dodger, and Kerry was the true patriot. This is a temporary lift.
Bush has shot his wad.

[Malva Zebrina]

43. In a recent interview done on AAR by Al Franken a Bush supporter

an educated man who was a lawyer, said that military service to him was irrelevant to the election when Franken asked about it. Perhaps it is irrelevant. It would only become relevant if someone would bring up the coward's military record and NO ONE has. Therefore, we are taunted and then drawn into Kerry defending the accusations of a filthy group of fat bellied freeper veterans that are obviously a lie, but they go on--they go on with the lie as if there were no opposition at all. They get on the shows that the people watch, and they simply repeat the lie. And they go on and make another lie and another ad that would reinforce the notion in the heads of the people that Kerry fudged his medals. We have been drawn into this battle that has put Kerry on the defensive, forcing him to spend money on ads defending himself and his military service and that money will be sorely needed later, and NO ONE is bringing up the Bush record of AWOL == NO ONE

This is an attack and parry, but the people of the US have no interest in the parry. It is too weak,mainly because it is too late, not because the words Kerry uses are strong.

At this point, with no one bringing up the shameful record of Bush, all other issues, such as jobs, economy etc. are secondary at this point. The sensationalism of the accusations are what is occupying the attention of the bread and circus Americans.

It is shameful indeed but we knew Bush was a filthy prick and will do anything to win this election. He will and Mr. Nice Guy Kerry has made a mistake in not immediately challenging these thugs.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

48. the AWOL will be played

there's more than 2 months left. DOn't worry, all cards will be played.

[rumguy]

16. Kerry is leading among vets and military families in Pennsylvania

which is an important swing state.

"Military veterans or voters with a household member who is a veteran or currently in active duty or reserve service support Kerry 46 – 42 percent, with 6 percent for Nader.

These voters from military families say 54 – 41 percent that the war is wrong."

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x12945.xml

Chimp has lost ground in Ohio since the ads began running there - so are they really working?

I'm sorry - but I'm gonna have to call PUFF...PIECE...

:puffpiece:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Yawn....melodrama is ever so slightly nauseating.

:eyes:

[markses]

55. Perhaps

:eyes:

[rumguy]

19. Kerry is ahead in the swing states

and * is looking very shaky in Florida.

I think your doom and gloom is unjustified.

I feel very confident.

[RummyTheDummy]

38. Some people love to covet the struggle

They simply cannot allow themselves to be happy or even --gasp-- optimistic.

[markses]

56. Gasp

.............

[enigmatic]

63. I think the old adage..

that some people who aren't truly happy unless they are miserable applies..

[DaveinMD]

20. give me a break

Keep underestimating Kerry. He is fighting back and he's a great closer. He was trailing Weld for much of the 96 campaign and closed hard. The same thing happened in the primaries this year. Don't underestimate John Kerry.

[Julien Sorel]

21. If Kerry lost the election because of this,

then the country will deserve what it gets.

I don't see it happening, though. This is just a distraction during the slow times of the campaign. The media have to find something to get people interested and excited -- something to keep the people like our chicken littles here in a constant state of near hysteria.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. Hey....

[buycitgo]

31. thank you....heh

momentary respite from nazi-induced delirium!

[markses]

57. I'm not at all panicked

n/t

[buycitgo]

28. MAN, I hope you're wrong

if he gets on it NOW, it's now too late

he's still got the lead, and internals are good, BUT

and it's a BIG one

DUKAKIS lost eight points in a week or so, because of that ahole TANK ad

did you know that?

might not be true, but I read it here

guess how much he lost by?

case almost closed

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. "The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling!"

:eyes:

DTH

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

50. Except that NO ONE wants Bush.

Except for that, you're so right.

I believe someone here on DU was actually able to come up with someone who did NOT vote for Bush last time, who IS voting for him THIS time. Can you think of one? Who has Bush converted? He lost the popular vote last time. Who are the new voters flocking to his banner?

List them, please. We need to know.

[markses]

60. Well there's Jamie and Linsey and Collette and Margerie

and Carol and Art and Trish and Don and Melanie and Jacob and Maurice and Greg and Gregg and Hal and Jay-Bo and Keerstin and Holly and Dave and Larry and Rob and Yolanda and Barry and Fred and Kevin and Victor and Zach and Rick and Odell and...

[SaveElmer]

22. Calm down !!!

Every time a poll comes out everyone here starts wring their hands like mad over a 1 or 2 % dip in Kerry's support

Calm down!

The important point of this poll is that Bush is still only polling 45%. His numbers haven't moved an inch in months. Undecideds are gonna break heavy for Kerry. These 1-3% swings in support are meaningless.

Right now I would say Kerry wins 51-46 with about 320 electoral votes.

[buycitgo]

25. I'll calm down when I look up at the TV and stop seeing

Dukakis

Kerry gave them TWO WEEKS to fester

and it's trending badly

polls are fine, but unless he and his surrogate respond by ATTACKING, and NOW, just wait and see

I could be wrong

I hope so

but, so could you

[SaveElmer]

29. Ask William Weld about Kerry's campaign abilities

He is simply allowing these people to shoot their wad on this stuff. The media will move on to something else, and then Kerry will get a bigger splash when he does respond...and don't worry...he will!!!

If Kerry comes out and responds to every little charge his message will get washed away. He is simply waiting for the right moment to get the maximum benefit.

[Shopaholic]

30. And now the fuckers are coming out with a second ad

tomorrow. This will not stop and there will be more just like it on whatever subject they can find.

[buycitgo]

GREAT point! did you see the BS about Kerry the evil DATER????

it will be nonstop

Kerry better realize that the only differenc between this and Nam is that the bullets are electronic

that's IT!

he had better not let this slide any farther

[Liberal Veteran]

32. Some people seem to forget what's coming on October 5.

This is hardly anything to panic over.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. The New R.E.M. album? n/t

[aquart]

51. WHAT is coming October 5?

Can't remember what I don't know.

[tblue37]

62. That's the release date

for the Farenheit 9/11 DVD.

[Big Al from WI]

34. The margin of error was 8%

so that must have been a REALLY small poll. I think you only have to survey about 1000 people for a 4% margin of error- so an 8% margin of error would be like 500 people or even less. I wouldn't worry about it.

[buycitgo]

35. right....just wait a few weeks........seen this

if Kerry doesn't go on the ATTACK, he's screwed

Dukakis had a HUGE lead after his convention, which he admitted TODAY on Franken was squandered by his FAILURE to fight fire with fire

but, what does HE know?

right?

[SaveElmer]

36. Exactly...bottom line

With a 2% swing from the last CBS poll...we are talking about 10 people answering differently between the two polls. And what percentage of that was veterans. This is nothing!!!

[lancdem]

46. More like 300 people

[DU GrovelBot]

37. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
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[rumguy]

40. Fuck off Grovel Bot!

[Liberal Veteran]

39. Okay...TIME OUT and read this.

Four weeks ago, Kerry was polling at 35% percent among veterans and 48% for Bush in this poll.

Last week, it was Kerry at 48% and 47% for Bush in this poll.

This week Kerry has lost a few point FROM THE PREVIOUS POLL which has a margin of error at +/- 8 percent.

Quit panicking over sensationalism already. You are just playing into the hands of the media.

[rumguy]

42. Exactly Kerry is doing just fine

Polls fluctuate - get over it people!

The only polls that matter are the ones in the swing states, where Kerry is doing very, very well.

[lancdem]

47. What were the overall numbers in this poll?

[0rganism]

53. Wait... the MOE is 8%? So they surveyed 150 vets to get this number!

WEAK! This is definitely NOT NEWSWORTHY. CBS is pandering to bush by even mentioning such a meaningless pile of poo.

[Uzybone]

45. The sky is falling the sky is falling !!!!

We are doomed we are doomed we are doomed!!!! Unless we follow the advice of partisans of candidates who lost badly in the primaries then we are doomed!!!

[BillZBubb]

52. I wasn't a partisan of any of the candidates who lost.

But I still am very concerned about the Kerry campaign. He should be winning by at LEAST 10% in any and all polls at this point.

Everyone with brains knows Bush* is a total failure. Yet, Kerry can't seal the deal. That should worry every one of us.

[Lefty Pragmatist]

64. Kerry could never be ahead by 10%.

This is a split electorate. The most either candidate will get on Election Day is 52%. Kerry's dead on -- in other words, he's getting 100% of the support he could conceivably get. Trick is to keep it; he isn't going to grow it -- there's nowhere to "grow."

Nobody is going to convince those who believe in Bush to vote against him, any more than anybody here could be convinced to vote for him under any circumstances. Their Kool Aid is just as tasty as ours. This is an election about reaching perhaps 4% of the electorate -- for the other 96% it is a done deal.

[Sugarbleus]

66. I'd like to know where the "Vetereans for Peace" and other's

like that org. are at??? Would be nice if they came out to support the cause here.

[sampsonblk]

67. Of course. But now Kerry has struck back

Kerry at least struck back, and he did it strongly. Its about time!