The Fact-Checker: Was Obama ever a Muslim? (in response to ad from "Willie Horton" ad creator)

[DeepModem Mom]

WP: Was Obama ever a Muslim?

The Republican consultant who helped sink the 1988 Dukakis campaign with his infamous "Willie Horton ad" is using his attack dog skills against Barack Obama. A web ad created by Floyd Brown, founder of a conservative political advocacy group called the National Campaign Fund, accuses the presumptive Democratic nominee of covering up his Muslim past. The ad relies on a mixture of half-truth, innuendo, and dramatic headlines rolling across the screen to depict Obama as fundamentally "untrustworthy."

The Facts

As with his 1988 ad attacking Michael Dukakis for being soft on crime, Brown has grounded his assault on Barack Obama on a seemingly solid fact. It is true that the Associated Press reported, in passing back in January, that Obama was "enrolled as a Muslim" in a Catholic school in Indonesia in 1967. He was six years' old at the time. The bulk of the AP article was devoted to rebutting rumors that the Illinois senator had attended an Islamic madrassa while growing up in Indonesia.

Documents viewed by the AP showed that students attending the Fransiskus Assisis Catholic school were registered under one of five different religions: Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Obama, then known as Barry, attended the school from 1st through 3rd grade as student 203. He later enrolled in Public Elementary School Menteng No. 1, a school incorrectly described by the Washington Times Insight magazine and Fox News as an Islamic madrassa.

The Brown ad misses out key facts that cast a very different light on Obama's Muslim connections. At the Catholic school, he was required to participate in Catholic rituals and pray four times a day. Teachers quoted by the Chicago Tribune said that he was probably registered as a Muslim because this was the religion of his then-Indonesian step-father, Lolo Soetero. Like many Indonesians, Soetero was a rather lax Muslim who drank and did not abide by the strict tenets of the faith....

***

The Pinocchio Test

Barring fresh revelations, the Obama campaign's explanation for the "Muslim" annotation beside Barack's name in the Catholic school ledger seems reasonable. Three Pinocchios for Floyd Brown.



http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/was_obama_a_muslim.html?hpid=sec-politics

LINK TO VIDEO OF AD, "WAS HE MUSLIM?": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbsihrdn-_s&eurl=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/was_obama_a_muslim.html?hpid=sec-politics

[anonymous171]

1. Floyd, it's not the 80's anymore. Borderline racist attacks don't have as much credibility.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. "borderline"? This is full blown racism.

[Rainbow gatherer]

36. True but...

If we are having problems here in the USA with people believing Barak is a Muslim (what's wrong with that anyway?) one wonders how many in the Muslim world will treat him since in Islam a man can marry a Christian or Jew but is required to raise the children Muslim. Will they perceive Barak as a Muslim apostate? This is scary.

[question everything]

52. The question, then, should be: was Barack Obama Sr. a Muslim?

I agree with you that this should be irrelevant, however, for most voters, it is.

If his real father, not step-father, was a Muslim then, according to Islam, the children born are Muslims.

Another question: if he officially converted to Christianity - and I don't know that he did - does this "release" him from being a Muslim?

I don't know the answers, but this is something that the Republicans can grab and run with it.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I will not be watching the video ad ever........

as that is what Floyd wants from us.

I refuse.

[Rick Myers]

4. Pure trash... n/t

[saracat]

5. Except Catholic schools do NOT require non Catholics to "participate in rituals"

or pray four times a day". Why on earth would anyone say that? My entire family has gone to generations of Catholic schools at all different levels from kindergarten to boarding school to college and that was NEVER the case going as far back as my great grandparents? Why would anyone say that? My husband is also a non Cathoic who attended catholic schools and NEVER had to do those things? What is the Campaign thinking?

[Occam Bandage]

6. Nobody is suggesting all Catholic schools do.

The article is saying that the Catholic school in question did.

(Unless, of course, you are claiming that no Catholic school anywhere in the world has ever led its students in prayer, or made them to attend Mass.)

[saracat]

7. It is extremely unlikely that ANY Catholic school makes any non Catholic student

participate in rituals or pray four times a day. They don't even require that of the Catholic students. They might pray in the morning or attend Mass on Holy Days but non Catholics are never required to participate. And praying four times a day? No one I know has ever heard of such a thing. This seems really bogus to me. And I find it next to impossible to believe the Catholic school"in question" did such a thing or was in fact so completely different than all other Catholic schools around the world. Nothing is impossible I suppose, but this is a very bizarre statement to be made about a Catholic school.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. My schools had us pray 3 times per day and go to mass once per week.

So yeah, it's "possible".

[bhikkhu]

11. Prayed 3 times a day, mass twice a week, plus religion class

That was my Catholic school regimen in CA from 1971-1979. It wasn't prayer like the fundies do - sweating and speaking in tongues and such, but it was prayer nevertheless. I was not particularly religious, but there was never any question of participating or not participating; everyone participated. You are talking about little kids minding their teachers, really, and if the parents had any problem with it they would not have had their children there.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

13. Because you are the foremost expert on the Catholic schools in Indonesia. nt

[saracat]

15. Like Catholic schools vary all that much? Do you think we alter our religious teachings too?

Indonesia practices a "different kind of religion?" Are you implying that Indonesian Catholics pray more and are more "devout" and indulge in forced proselytizing? Hardly likely. And yeah, I am probably sort of an "expert" on Catholic education in general. But whatever.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. Judging from several responses you got in this thread, you are no expert in Catholic education.

And unless you've spent a significant amount of time in Indonesia studying their parochial school system, you don't know squat about it.

[saracat]

19. And you are in no position to sit in judgment but you do anyway and always on anything. Sigh.

A combined total of 106 years of parochial , high school and college education in Catholic schools across this nation and abroad in my "immediate family" enables me to have sufficient evidence to offer an informed opinion on the subject. I cannot say the same for others.Bye.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. How many of those years of experience were in Indonesia? None, I'm guessing. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

23. But schools vary greatly even within small areas.

My cousin went to Catholic school in Joliet and I went to Catholic school further north and we had very different experiences.

Schools can even vary with time. The Catholic school I went to for grade school and middle school is now much stricter than it used to be.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

24. Oh I know. But there's no telling Saracat anything once she gets on a roll. nt

[saracat]

28. As opposed to yourself whom is always right about everything

and so objective too! :sarcasm:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

44. I admit when I'm wrong and I try to be objective

I also notice that you haven't responded to a single post that has pointed out that you are wrong about Catholic schools requiring non-Catholics to participate in religious exercises. Only to me. Why is that?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. It's sad for me to go back to my old school.

Even though we had to pray a lot, it was a very liberal school. But since the sister that acted as principal died, it's become much more conservative.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

22. Did any of your relatives go to *that* school in the year Obama did?

[PM7nj]

18. Yes. Catholic education can vary greatly.

I started school in the Diocese of Trenton and later transfered to a school in the Diocese of Camden. That was like going to a totally different world. I can only imagine what the Diocese of Jakarta is like.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. I went to Catholic school in a suburb of Chicago and apparently in varied GREATLY from your school.

[Genevieve]

26. And, she is "The Numer One Obama-Expert".

eom

[roseBudd]

35. Yes always finding fault, out of concern I am sure

[Genevieve]

46. I call it 'Frantic Unauthentic Concern".

'Cause that's how her posts sound.

''oh, no, Obama, uh, oh oh, nooooo!"

[izzybeans]

42. We took our three year old son out of a Catholic pre-school precisely because of this.

he knew bible stories but they weren't teaching him his letters and numbers.

We went because it was cheap and because they told us it was all about essential skills for kindergarten.

[sakura]

50. Sorry. Mine did.

I attended Catholic school for 16 years. Only in college were non-Catholics excused from mass. Non-Catholics didn't partake of the sacraments (as that would be a sin), but like the rest of us had to sit through mass. As Barack is close to my age, I'd say it's quite possible his experience was similar to mine.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

9. No...I went to Catholic school from K-12 and *all* of us were required to go to mass once a week

We had prayer time and although I suppose you didn't *have* to pray, you were told to just sit quietly while everyone else did and you were expected to sit or stand when everyone else did. We had prayer in the morning, after lunch and before school let out. Not quite four times, but still a lot. These were night silent prayers, you were told to stand up and then we had the teacher ask if there were any special prayers and then we'd say a group prayer. We also had to take "religion" every single year. And I just graduated in '02, so we're not talking decades ago.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. I nominate this post for a DUzy for Best Concern Trolling!

:applause:

[PM7nj]

16. My school did.

I went to Catholic schools my entire life. Everyone, Catholic and Non-Catholic, had to pray, go to mass, participate in religion classes, etc. They only things non-Catholics didn't do is participate in the sacraments. Is that what you mean by "rituals?" If thats what you mean then your right, but non-catholics had to participate in everything but the actual sacraments.

[fedupinBushcountry]

39. If I remember correctly

Religion was required to take for 4 years in order to graduate. I know that I would have not taken it if it wasn't a requirement. We had Mass every Friday and on holy days and had a prayer every morning and Mass every day IF you wanted to attend, Friday the whole school had to attend.

[woolldog]

27. I went to Catholic school too.

And yes, we were forced to do the rituals.

[roseBudd]

34. OMG! You went to Catholic school in Indonesia?

[jody]

8. This issue will never be laid to rest if there is an iota of truth to the allegation Obama received

Islamic teaching.

Whether that will cost him enough votes to lose the election remains to be proven.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Where's the iota of truth? Islamic teaching received such In Catholic School?

Or in the public school that he attended? It appears that there isn't one Iota of truth.

But please, why shouldnt' our leaders know about other religions?

Obama was never a "muslim", that as much of the truth as we need.

What in the fuck are you saying? That even some unproven inuendo will do? Cause it sounds like that is what you are saying; that we are a nation of simpleton bigots.

I was reading somewhere that the issues that folks have in reference to using excuses when it is really about Obama's race, pales in comparison to how folks reacted about Kennedy during the 1960s election. That was almost 50 years ago.....but I guess that some of us have not progressed....although I think that more have than some will want to admit....as it does not fit into their agenda, whatever that agenda is.

[jody]

33. I said "IF there is an iota of truth". Please reread my post. n/t

[unc70]

29. Issue has almost nothing to do with Catholic school -- Islamic instruction at "public" school

The focus on the Catholic school and the overplaying of the public school as a madrassa misdirects from the primary RW claim that Obama received some limited training in Islam at the second school in Indonesia. That has been reported in several articles that interviewed people in Indonesia; I currently have no way to independently verify that information. Apparently Obama says something in "Dreams" which supports this limited contention.

The "public" school was far from being a madrassa, but according to various sources Obama would have received two hours per week of instruction in Islam at this second school he attended after his stepfather moved the family to one of the best neighborhoods.

I have not viewed the video of the ad and won't until I am on a safer, better-protected system.

[FrenchieCat]

30. the question being asked and answered is was Obama a Muslim.....

The evidence is something about him being listed as a Muslim on the CATHOLIC School's ledger. The answer accompanied by 3 pinocchios is what the OP is about.

The fact that Obama went to public school in Indonesia does not make him having been a muslim.

That's like a Baptist child going to a Catholic elementary school for two years, and then 38 years later be reportely a Catholic.

The bottomline is that I can't give a shit what the RW is trying to do or say.

For that matter, McCain is the Manchurian candidate who could be a closet communist from his 5.5 years being indoctrinated by Communists. Do you think Obama had anymore choice as to where he lived or got his elementary education as a child as did McCain being held captive? Didn't think so.

[treestar]

37. Great point about McSame. It is typical of the moranic right to

believe that the ideas they find so dangerous are so compelling that simply hearing about them is enough to "convert" the person. Thus their insistence that Obama must be a Muslim because he may have learned about Islam as a child. It would follow that McLame must be a communist. Though the double standard is what they live by.

[unc70]

40. The public school taught Muslim, Christian, others separate religion

Obama was nominally listed as a Muslim because of his stepfather and received some minimal instruction in Islam. His stepfather was not particularly observant, one account describing him as more interested in having a drink around the pool at the private club rather than attending prayers. No radical Muslim, nothing that supports the wildest email claims. But Obama did receive instruction in Islam at the school.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/237/

But the RW has moved far past those unsophisticated attacks of 18 months ago. The current versions of this point out Obama's categorical denials, raise various facts that argue against these absolute disclaimers, claim that Obama modified the statements on his web site, and claim that his siblings in Kenya were raised Muslim.

I think that Obama left himself open to some of these attacks by trying to be too clever by half with his denials of any connection with Islam except through his "atheist" father. I see this as much the same as his depicting his mother as from Kansas but glossing over her growing up in CA and WA, attending middle and high school there.

Try constructing a time-line for the lives of Obama and his parents. It is quite a challenge.

A trivia question no one has answered yet: Where and with whom was Obama living in Feb 1962?

[truthisfreedom]

31. We need an equivalently diligent ad maker to present the fact that McLame wasn't born here in the US

He's Panamanian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[treestar]

38. Exactly. Even if not true, if the shoe were on the other foot, then

they'd be saying Obama was Panamanian. Even if it were not true. Emails saying McLame is Panamanian should go around. Along with discussions on how Panama is a dictatorship, etc.

[Diclotican]

32. DeepModem Mom

DeepModem Mom

If mr Obama was/are an muslim, what problem is there anyway?.. Should the american President, be at an special religion?.. Should he not be Catholic, or some other religion. Should any other than the Protestant believe be banned for trying to get into the presidency all together?

I find all this "he is an muslim, and therefore a danger to the US" so silly that I could care less. The most important for me, is that US have an another President, and another style than the current, and mr McCain could give US and the rest of the world

And if mr Obama was an muslim,so what?.. McCain are not born in the US, but in the Zone where the Panama Canal are.. Should he also be banned from the Presidency, because technically he are not born in the US?..


This is just like the Election in 1960, where the US right wing was using all the fear they could muster against the Catholic Church because Kennedy was an Catholic.. And many in the Protestant world was really fearfully that President Kennedy should take full control, and demand that most american could go over to the Catholic belif... That never happend...

The same is the case here. If mr Obama was to be an muslim, he are in no shape to demand that every american should be an muslim..

I doubt he is an muslim, and after mr Bush, and his "evangelical belief" everything else should be something better.. Even an muslim in the Oval Rom.. I would bet that he is as american as the next gay...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[unc70]

43. The problem is the years of using Islam and jihad to instill fear in US population

Possibly harder to overcome having ANY family connection with Islam than it is to overcome being AA in the minds of voters. Obama has run away from his Muslim connections since before he began officially running for office, for example by emphasizing that his father was an atheist by the time he met Obama's mother or by not mentioning that his stepfather was also Muslim. Obama has reacted as though he saw Islam as a strong negative and his denials seem very defensive.

He is also trying to avoid seeming to have any ties with the Nation of Islam, another group that is viewed unfavorably by many Americans.

[Diclotican]

54. unc70

unc70

I do believe it can be difficult for Mr Obama to get that "stain" of him that he is an muslim.. But I have to say after the "More holly than you" attitude from mr Bush and the Mafia who rule the White House today, it would be an refresher to have some who either was Muslim, or who was believing in something more "mainstream" than mr Bush. I know that many american take their belief very strongly, and I know that in US the whole concept of belief is maybe much stronger than in most of europe, included Italy and Poland.. But I can't understand why if he are/was an muslim should be that difficult.. And as many before have pointed out, mr Obama biological father was an non believer. It was his step-father who was an muslim.. And therefore it could not be by "bloodlines"> he is an muslim.. In the "world" that the US have given into the last 8 year, islam is an dangerous religion, who at best should be tolerated, but feared. At best it should be working hard to get the poor soils to admit their wrongdoing and therefore the baptism of christ, so the right belief is what they should live by. Or if it fails, death or been send out of the country... We have experienced that here in Europe many times over the ages. And in most cases it fails miserably, and in the proses in many cases destroy the fabric of a country.. Today with all the know how we have, it should be easy to stop ignorants by knowledge.. But I have to say, the american media have not doing their work, and duty for many years now..

The Nation of Islam is an little "extreme" group, who I also have some feeling about. But I do believe they have the _right_ to worship what they want.. So long it are nothing criminally going on and no violence..

I don't know the "truth" of mr Obama.. But I would say, I would care less if he was an muslim or not. What is necessary now is to get someone else in the White House..No more clones like mr McCain and its look-alike from the nightmare of George Walker Bush jr.. USA deserve an fresh start, with new leadership and an new tone. NOt more of the same.. US deserve to prove to itself, and to the world that even they do stupid things, they can in the end do the RIGHT THING. That is was I cling to, when my hopeless is overpowering my on late nights. US would in the end do the right thing. Even if it would hurt, and many would loose more than just their coffeecup over the morning paper...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my naive language

[bridgit]

58. Jihad is not used to instill *fear* in the American population. Jihad is a real deal...

Let there be no more mistakes as to what is base-fundamental to the great religions of this world...

ji·had – noun

1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

Also, jehad.

jihad

Islam An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection.
Islam A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels. A crusade or struggle: "The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke" (Fortune).

[DeepModem Mom]

47. I agree with unc70 in post #43. America is not a perfect country...

and, sad to say, there are many people in our country who would not vote for Obama if they thought he was a Muslim because they don't understand even what being Muslim means. I think they know that Islam is a religion, but it is not one of which they approve. Many probably think that any Muslim is a terrorist and wishes to harm the U.S.

The fear with Kennedy, as I understand it, was that he would do what the Pope wanted and not what was best for America. The fear among many Americans is that Obama, if he were Muslim, would not do what was best for America, and might even try to destroy the country. That is what thousands of e-mails say to people, and some are ignorant enough to believe them.

[Diclotican]

55. DeepModem Mom

DeepModem Mom

No country is Perfect. US are no difference to that DeepModem Mom;).. But it is little shildlish, to be that fearfull that they would not vote for an person, because he "can" be an muslim.. But if mr Obama was not muslim, I would say the same people would be fearfully because he is black. Or that he walk this or this way.. And so on.. They who fear, would fear regardless of what the case is.. I for One would rather be fearfully about an 72 year old angry man with bad temper, and with the finger on the nuclear bottom.. Than an young fit man who looks like he could give US some hope back.. US NEED some hope in this age I would say.. And hopefully mr Obama CAN get little hope into a rather bad situation in US.. And maybe some of this optimism, would spread to the others too...

As I know it, it looks like mr Obama are loving his country far better than McCain and Mr Bush would ever dream about. And I doubt that mr Obama can do an worse job to destroy US and what her was standing for, than the republicans and mr Bush/Cheney already have been doing:think: To try to be an blind patriot as Bush and CO want the american public to be is not the same as been proud of the nation and what it once stand for... You are not an patriot, just because you have a maple pen with the US flag on it when you are in a suit.. With you ACTIONS, and your deeds, you are showing your porousness, your love and your patriots to a country.. Not by cling to false symbols who have no real value... If one really LOVE their country, they have to act on it, not just talk emty shit about how patriotic you are.. And if you really are an patriot, who also was managed to get elected to the highest office on the land, you don't screw almost everyone to the tone of billions.. But are giving the country to the next leader in better shape than you was given it in every prospect.. The administration of mr Bush have NOT doing their job, the US is in far worse shape today, than it ever was under Clinton... Just to point THAT out..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english,not my native language

[DeepModem Mom]

56. That is a wonderful post, Diclotican -- your words are both eloquent and wise. Thank you!!! nt

[Diclotican]

59. DeepModem Mom

DeepModem Mom

Thank your self;).. It is what I feel. US is to great to be an failure just because you for the moment have a failure as president.. But the next administration would have a hell of a time to repair, and get the money back from they who have stealing from the US trassery... I would guess your GAO would have to dig op a lot of paper trail from every corner of the world to get the billions who have been stealing from your country back

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Political Tiger]

41. Is it illegal to be or to have ever been a Muslim?

"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
-United States Constitution, Article VI, section 3,

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. It's not a politically popular thing to be. That's why he's so strenuously denying this 'smear'

[VotesForWomen]

57. no, but if he was a fundamentalist christian every person on this board would consider it a legitima

legitimate issue of concern. to the extent that religion is an ideology and that that ideology may shape policy making, it should be considered when deciding whether to vote for someone.

[dolo amber]

45. Oh my god, who GIVES A SHIT IF HE **IS** A MUSLIM????

Why is this even an issue?? :crazy:

[DeepModem Mom]

48. Unfortunately, a lot of people who vote, especially the ones who believe...

anonymous forwarded e-mails they receive. The e-mails say that as a Muslim (and he is not in any case, of course) Obama is a plant to destroy the U.S. There's a lot of ignorance out there.

[tamzins]

49. IT'S NOT IGNORANCE, AS MUCH AS SLANDER

It's not that some of these people are ignorant, but they have an agenda - to slander him, and cast aspersions on his character, so that he looks like he's hiding something. So what if he was registered as a Muslim? His stepfather was Muslim, but how can you hold this against a 6 year old? Besides, Islam is as valid a religion as Judaism, or Christianity, and I'm sure there were no terrorists back when Obama attended school there in the 60s. It's the same old right wing BS.

[DeepModem Mom]

51. What I have personal knowledge of is the e-mails, and you are right...

the originators of the e-mails are slanderers, and their agenda is right-wing. People I know, however, believe it or not some college-educated, etc., get these e-mails -- and as has been written about in several articles -- maybe because the e-mails are forwarded to them by someone they know, they believe them! Their ignorance, I think, is not even lack of intelligence. It's failure to pay close enough attention to legitimate sources of info. Close enough attention even to the MSM would inform someone about Obama's religion.

The info in your post is true, logical and makes sense. Unfortunately, that info never finds its way to lots of people. Instead they get a forwarded e-mail telling them that Obama is a Muslim, and, if elected, will act as an agent to destroy America. And if they don't fully believe it, it casts enough doubt in their mind for Obama to lose their vote.

We are reading that the Obama campaign is preparing and staffing to combat this stuff that's circulating out there, and that's encouraging.