Is anyone (everyone) afraid to attack McCain on his 'military' and 'national security' .............

[Stinky The Clown]

....... creds based on his military service?

Here is a quick rundown of the facts:

John McCain was a crappy student at the Naval Academy and it is quite possible that if his father and grandfather were not who they were, he might have been dismissed prior to graduation.

He was not a good pilot and, ignoring being shot down over Hanoi (more on that later), he had bad luck with planes and crashed or damaged more than one of them. 'Nuff said.

To his credit, he went to Vietnam when many others chose to actively avoid doing so. He was shot down over Hanoi (likely through no fault of his own). He was held as a POW and was arguably very heroic in deciding not to accept the free pass offered him, choosing instead to say he would only leave after those who had been there longer were released. The notion that he betrayed his country with some statements is bullshit. He was tortured for a very long time. I begrudge him none of that and, indeed, view him in this regard as a real hero.

When he got out of Viet Nam, he continued to serve for a while ......... in a political job in DC.

NO WHERE AT ALL in that history is there anything that makes him either a military, or a national security, or a foreign policy expert.

What he is, is a disabled vet who served in Viet Nam and was held as a POW. That's it.

The rest of his portfolio is being in Congress so long that he's lost any sense of principled behavior and he's sufficiently old that he is ossified in his views and displays occasional signs of .... mmmmm ..... to be kind ...... 'advancing years'.

John McCain is no more a foreign policy 'expert' than any other sentient person who pays attention and gets occasional classified briefings.

[MNDemNY]

1. Not Me.

I say he was, at best, a poor Naval Aviator.
His piloting skills are suspect: He got shot down.
His "escape and evasion " skills are poor: He was captured and failed to escape.
Hero? No, just a bad pilot.

[Adelante]

2. Not Wes Clark - read this from today

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/11/gen-clark-mccain-is-untes_n_106457.html

[uppityperson]

3. Because if you do people will point fingers and say jingositic cliches at you.

"why do you hate america" "some things shouldn't be questioned" "he has experience (tm)"
Things like that. Personally, I think it all is fair game and should be questioned.

[think4yourself]

4. I agree.

He's really created this brand identity that has not been challenged in 8 years. And the MSM in the same breath, when saying his name, always say, he is unmatched in National Security matters. He doesn't even know who the enemy in Iraq is. He votes FOR torture after being tortured for YEARS.
That's not strength or experience.
That's just stupid insanity.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. He caused the USS Forrestal disaster.

He was horsing around with another pilot on the deck, and did an ill-advised "wet start" of his plane, which triggered a chain reaction where a rocket from his F4 was launched into the fuel tank of the Skyhawk and a massive fire ensued, killing several dozen crewmembers. He was transferred immediately after it happened.

Yet another example of the MSM giving a Republican pol a free pass. Can you just imagine if he were a Democratic Presidential nominee? Forrestal would be a household word. :grr:

[SwampG8r]

21. allow me to back you up with a link?

http://judicial-inc.biz/82jjohn_mccain_and_the_uss_forresta.htm
http://www.blah3.com/article.php?story=20070122183950855
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_16/ai_61361646
a quote from a witness
Patane Joseph M.
Service Dates=4/65 to 9/68

I served aboard Forrestal at the time of the fire aboard ship while attached to fighter squadron eleven out of Oceana Va. It just so happend that I was working on the flight deck at the time of the fire onthe flight deck, if it wasn't for this I believe in all honesty that I would have been killed with the 80 0r 90 some of my shipmates caught in their bunks asleep, I also believe that I wouldn't be able to say I saw what started the fire to begin with, and that's why I was put back on forrestal when she came home from PI ON her way back to Norfolk Va. McCain keeps blaming my squadron for this fire, when in all actuality, it was a fuel leak off his center line tank, and the ships power cords used to supply the electrial to turn up our craft, not VF-11 SHOOTION a missle acrost the flight deck as we we blamed for, and still are to this day,and if able I would tell Senator McCain what a lier he really is.

[DCofVA]

27. I'm glad you were on the flight deck that day, swampg8r

If he really did cause the accident and then blamed other people for it, that is very much an issue that should be brought up.

[SwampG8r]

28. you misunderstand

i was not a witness but i quoted a witness statement
as to who caused it it is still a question
his actions during the fire speak for themselves

[SoCalDem]

6. Refusing early release was probably more about his father than anything else

Military families are like no others..

I'm betting that the shame he would have brought his father (and himself FROM his father) would have been harder to endure than staying in Hanoi..

[Arkansas Granny]

7. The only request I have, if we talk about his military service, is that we do not "swiftboat" him.

I'm not in any position to say judge McCain's piloting skills or if his behavior as a POW differed greatly from other who were held captive and/or tortured. I do, however, consider that he served his country with honor and I will defend that service from "swiftboat" style attacks. That is not to say that I believe that his service alone gives him an edge on national security or foreign policy matters.

[annabanana]

25. "swiftboating " requires lies...

There are no lies in the OP. .

[hardbop]

8. Honestly, I think it should be off limits

Regardless of how sharp his aviator skills were, he sacrificed for his country and we should honor that.

I say going after him on these grounds is off limits.

[MNDemNY]

13. Good luck with that.

[SwampG8r]

22. see my reply above and then say that

over 100 dead on the forrestal

[nykym]

9. From what I

have read about early release it was offered to all prisoners but most POW's followed the code and took a pass at it until all were released. So nothing extraordinary there either.

[blondeatlast]

10. Forty-seven thousand military, foreign policy, and national security experts DIED if we apply that

logic to the KIA in Viet Nam. I don't see many survivors popping out of the woodwork to asy they are as equally qualified, either.

http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

[Forkboy]

11. I think it's a highly dangerous angle of attack for us to use.

I agree that it's not the record some would like us to believe about him, but I think it has a higher chance of backfiring than actually helping us. We honestly have so much on him, which he seems to add to daily, that we shouldn't even need to go there.

[BlueStater]

14. His actual military service should be off limits

But I have no problem dismantling this bullshit about him being some sort of foreign policy expert, which he certainly isn't judging by his constant gaffes.

[Forkboy]

15. I totally agree with that.

That's fair game, and I think we can mine that and score some points. But it has to be done right.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. "But it has to be done right."

That goes without saying. The Great Wurlitzer will be all cranked up 'to eleven' defending him. We simply need to separate his military service from the rest of his biography. Once done, he becomes a man built like a house of cards is built.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. That's the crux of the issue. Thank you.

I'm not saying his military service, per se, ought to be an issue. In fact, I oppose making it an issue. It is his using that as the basis for his supposed 'expert' status with foreign policy, security, and military issues that is in question.

[GoneOffShore]

12. I will always refer to him as "Crash" McCain

It's on record that he crashed four planes before he was shot down.

A Marine copter pilot friend of mine who served in VietNam called "Crash" a loser and said he fucked up. (And this guy is a hard core Republican).

If a vet says that, "Crash's" record is fair game.

[Rambis]

16. We do not need to

he is so weak on so many fronts we can afford to leave it.

[undeterred]

17. We can't be afraid to use anything legitimate against him

If he runs as a "war hero" then the truth about his military record should come out. Not as bad as Bush, but its not like he was a General or something.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. The truth of his military service is not the pont or the issue

Let him claim 'hero' status. I could care less.

What is much more important is to show that NOTHING in his biography warrants his being called an 'expert' in matters of national security, military, or foreign policy.

[MarjorieG]

23. Wes Clark, John Kerry, and Bradon Friedman poking holes into McC's claim to foreign policy strengh

That's surfacing today.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Charlie Crist was on Morning Joe just now talking about this

"Sniping and unfair attacks" is what these two assholes were talking about.

No facts, just feigned outrage.

We can, in fact, win on this.

[Galway girl]

26. I don't like how he treats his wives The "C" word is fair game

. How he left his first one and whathe calls his second one