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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:05 AM
Original message
3 A.M. For Feminism: Clinton dead-enders and the crisis in the women's movement (TNR)
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 09:06 AM by sfam
3 A.M. For Feminism: Clinton dead-enders and the crisis in the women's movement.
by Michelle Goldberg
The New Republic, Post Date Friday, June 06, 2008


This is a pretty solid, well thought out article that details the dynamic of some of Hillary's most fervent supporters, and what it means to Obama as he moves forward.

Amy Siskind, a 42-year-old mother of two from Westchester, stood in a Washington, D.C., park on the last day in May, telling a few hundred cheering people that she would not, under any circumstances, vote for Barack Obama. She was a lifelong Democrat, she said, a donor and a volunteer for the party. But, watching the race with a "mixture of shock, disgrace, and disgust," she was appalled at the leadership's failure to defend Hillary Clinton from the sexism that she believes bolstered Barack Obama's campaign. "Now I have a message for Howard Dean and the DNC," she said into a microphone, acid in her voice. "I'm not your sweetie!"

Siskind was one of the speakers at a rally that brought busloads of people, overwhelmingly women, to demonstrate near the Democratic National Committee (DNC) meeting that would decide the status of the Florida and Michigan delegations. The states had been stripped of their delegates--a decision Clinton endorsed--because they had broken party rules in holding their primaries early. But, as Clinton lost steam, seating them in full became crucial to her argument for the nomination, and thus, to her supporters, a matter of high democratic principle. Oaths to oppose Obama proliferated, often among longtime female fund-raisers. "You have betrayed us, our children, and our future," Siskind proclaimed during her speech, "and you will learn the new meaning of stay-at-home moms!"

Hillary Clinton has lost the nomination, but some of her most ardent female backers seem unwilling to accept it. A strange narrative has developed, abetted by Clinton and some of the mainstream feminist organizations. In it, the will of the voters was thwarted by chauvinistic party leaders in concert with a servile media, and Obama's victory represents a repeat of George W. Bush's in 2000. It's a story in which Obama becomes every arrogant young man who has ever edged out a more deserving middle-aged woman, and Clinton, hanging on until the bitter end, is not a spoiler but a feminist martyr.

This conviction, that sexism cost Clinton the nomination, is likely to be one of the more toxic legacies of this primary season. It is leaving her supporters feeling not just disappointed but victimized, many convinced that Obama's win is illegitimate. Taylor Marsh, a blogger and radio host whose website has become a hub for Clinton fans, says she gets hundreds of e-mails from angry Democrats pledging not to vote for Obama. She's started running posts from such readers under the headline DEMOCRATIC STORM WARNINGS. "I'm not saying that this is a huge voting bloc," she says. "I'm just saying that there is a huge amount of talk and I'm convinced it's a reality that needs to be addressed."

Surely some of this political nihilism will fade by November. Right now, it's hard to quantify; Internet forums and political protests exist, in part, to magnify the passions of a few into an illusory groundswell. In exit polls from Indiana and North Carolina, at least half of Clinton supporters said they wouldn't vote for Obama, but there's no way to calculate the role of gender in their disaffection.

In the months to come, feminist leaders and Clinton herself will urge women back into the Democratic fold. Still, the bitterness is intense. Kate Michelman, the Obama-supporting former head of NARAL, has heard enough of it to get worried. "It does feel to me, just recently, like we're on a death mission," she says. "here is a danger where we set a course for failure in November."

It didn't start out this way. In February of 2007, Gloria Steinem pushed back against the mushrooming discussion of identity politics, publishing an op-ed in The New York Times titled "Right Candidates, Wrong Question." She argued that queries about whether Americans were more prepared to elect a woman or a black man were "dumb and destructive." "ost Americans are smart enough to figure out that a member of a group may or may not represent its interests," she wrote. "This time, we . . . could double our chances by working for one of these candidates, not against the other." When reporters asked if she was supporting Clinton or Obama, she said, "I just say yes."

Eleven months later, her position, and that of many feminists, had grown more rigid. Taking to the Times op-ed page once again, she argued, "Gender is probably the most restricting force in American life, whether the question is who must be in the kitchen or who could be in the White House." When the time came to choose a candidate, it turned out identity politics mattered. "We have to be able to say: 'I'm supporting her,' " she concluded, " 'because she'll be a great president and because she's a woman.' "

More at:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=2c2ec3a8-e813-4d4e-b566-510e0f19eced


Interestingly, Goldberg believes that Obama should consider giving a speech on feminism, similar to his speech on race. She also thinks Webb might be a bad choice for VP based on this dynamic among some Hillary supporters:

For a start, that probably means Obama shouldn't nominate a vice president like Jim Webb, who has a number of attractive attributes but a notably bad record on women's issues. He also needs to stop calling women he doesn't know "sweetie." Beyond that, both feminists who support Obama and those who support Clinton suggest he give a speech about women's issues similar to the one he made about race. One of the things Obama is best at is making people feel that he understands their grievances and anxieties, even if he disagrees with them about remedies. If he can reach out to working-class whites offended by affirmative action, surely he can do the same for the middle-aged women who feel wronged by their surrogate's defeat.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. There is no "crisis in the women's movement" - just in Obama's campaign if Hillary is not VP
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It seems fairly clear that there has been a pretty strong split...
...in the feminist movement that runs along generational lines. This has been clear for some time as we have seen fairly scathing articles going back and forth between the camps. This article details the older generation's concerns and perspective fairly well I think, and shows where they really have altered events to fit their narrative.

You should give it a read.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. I think that's one of the REAL things we've learned in this election
and I have to say, I think the women's rights struggle of the last several decades has done some good things for women and some bad things for women. :shrug:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. I don't think it's generational at all
It's progressive vs reactionary.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #69
107. I do think it's generational.
A lot of women in my generation are simply turned off by the politics of victimization and the overwhelming anger of old school feminists. Most of us also can't relate to Boomer women's prevailing need to act like men in order to gain positions of power (Hillary's voting for the IWR and foreign policy machismo, for example).
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. Boomer feminists in the 70s were antiwar, period. Automatically went with the territory.
The changes that enabled Obama to come out on top began in the 60s. Millenials are the most multiculturally tolerant generation our country has yet produced, and they were raised by boomers.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #110
169. Right on! Have you seen Obama's speech at campaign headquarters? They ALL looked like Millenials
to me. And THAT is another reason that I get upset about the older HRC supporters who feel that their "age" entitles their opinion to carry more weght than "first-time" voters! I am PROUD to be an activist Boomer who reared Millenial sons! Hmmmm...now I wonder....surely there were some of HRC's boomer supporters who raised Millenials also. I wonder how their Millenials felt about Hillary......
:shrug:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Hillary is not going to be the VP - and Obama is going to win the presidency in a landslide.
Get over it.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
119. Would Hillary really want the second spot on the ticket,
or would she be happier in a role in the Administration where her talents and tenacity could REALLY make a lasting impact, like Supreme Court Justice, Secretary of Health and Human Services, or Secretary of Education?
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #119
209. I think Hillary wants her place in history. Bill also wants redemption...
This is why they want the VP/President slot. A woman Supreme Court Justice has already been done - a president or VP has not.

That said, I think Hillary's place in history is already very well solidified.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. hey, guess what? Hillary is NOT going to be VP. get over it.
we didn't come this far just to have the same old Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton backroom BULLSHIT still swindling the American public. DLCers can go pound sand. We The People WILL prevail.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
67. You are so naive.....all full of
hope and 'unity.' Unity with your kind of people of course...and the rest of us should just 'get over it.' Right? You, the person, huh? $10 a gallon for gas with $4 loaves of bread and he's telling us to 'get over it.'

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


We'll be lucky to have an election....Get over that.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. who's "he"? I'm a "she"--& you think the Senator from Punjab gives a rat's ass about $4 bread?
well, I guess we could continue Bushie's little war and try to grab the oil, HRC would be all for that, like the rest of the DLCers. I really do not understand what the connection is between the high price of gas and the fact that HRC will not be VP, ever, and getting over that fact. You need to look beyond the status quo, backroom-deal-making Bush-Clinton inner circle of greed heads if you want the economy to improve. Because shipping our jobs to India, and bankrolling the corporatists with NAFTA is not going to do it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
92. It's funny
you should say "We the people WILL prevail," I guess you don't count the 18 million people, (dems) that voted for Hillary! Wait......maybe he can win with the republicans...........LOL
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Strange how so many of them will vote for McCain and not Cynthia McKinney
After all, she is a woman and a feminist. Hypocrisy at its best.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Yup.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. Voting for Cynthia McKinney will not help Hillary get elected in 2012...
No hypocrisy there. The reasoning seems fairly tight, if clearly off...
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
66. aren't you special?
I do like Cynthia....even the Dems treated her like a dog. Maybe that's who BO should pick for his VP instead of the Republican Webb.

Seriously....is BO considering Webb??? That's got to be a joke....a very bad one.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. More like the media is pushing Webb.
I've seen his name pop up all over the place. Personally, I'd rather have a progressive Dem like Russ Feingold as VP. That and he's a likable candidate. Fancy that -- two likable candidates on one ticket.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
87. Feingold would be great!!!
If he gets some centrist or someone like Webb who was a republican just a few short years ago, I just won't get it.

I would like Edwards....but The Corporation won't stand for that.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
70. Cynthia McKinney has that unfortunate melanin condtion, you know n/t
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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
94. I don't think you get it!
McCain is the "nuclear"option! A vote for him is a statement to defeat Obama. I have never seen this in our party. You would do well to take it seriously.............
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #94
120. I think it's you who don't get it
If these women were so concerned about women's issues and refused to vote for Obama, Cynthia McKinney would be the natural choice. She's a woman and she's a progressive. She won't win either but then these women clearly don't give a rat's ass about that so there would be no problem.

Instead these women want to vote for McSame, the antithesis of what they claim to stand for. Me thinks these women are making lame excuses for why they won't vote for Obama. It has to do with a certain melanin condition.

Far be it for me to start sounding like Spock but it's the only logical conclusion.

Regards
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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #120
141. She's a woman/progressive, and she's
an idiot. She's like the wack a mole, she was voted out twice and she keeps coming back. We can't get rid of her and her drama, i.e. wacking that cop and claiming racism.

You need to go back to school, that's like saying we could replace Obama with Sharpton!

Get a clue, she's not viable, nor does she have a chance in hell of winning.

I guess you are one of those who said you would vote for Cynthia if Hillary got the nom.

I'm not gonna play your silly game..........

Save the snark!
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #141
192. You're the one who needs a clue. I can donate a dollar so you can purchase one if necessary
But I suspect I'd be wasting my money. Clearly you were at the end of the line when the brains were being passed out.

I will type this slowly so that even you can understand.

Clinton supporters who vote for McSame make no sense if their point is to spite Obama because they decided, erroneously I might add, that he personally disrespected her as well as DNC.

If these women are true progressives who gave a rat's ass about, feminist issues then they would not vote for the man who represents the opposite of their beliefs. If they wanted to make a point about feminism McKinney, a progressive and a woman, would be the logical choice. Now you may consider her an idiot but since I don't get my news from Faux I'll just move along and stipulate that point for the sake of brevity. I do not see why voting for the progressive idiot would be dumber than voting for the Neocon idiot so these women would still be in good company IQ wise so that's not really the problem.

If you had bothered to read my reply you might have noticed that I mentioned the odds of winning. But I guess you were too busy attempting to put me in my place to notice.

Moving on, given that there is an actual feminist available to vote for why do these women decide to vote for McSame? It's not their beliefs, McSame doesn't share their beliefs, it's not a proper protest because they're voting for the opposite of what they say believe. So what's making them vote McSame?

I think it's clear where I'm going with this.

I didn't mention Sharpton at all in my reply so I don't know where the hell that's coming from. I'm not arguing that Obama and Sharpton are interchangeable. Obviously they are not. When you compare the number of votes each received it's assinine to even suggest it. However, if I were inclined to vote for Sharpton, I certainly wouldn't say "well Sharpton didn't get it so I'm going to vote for George Wanker Bush." Which is the equivalent of the argument you're making.

And if Clinton had managed to get the nomination it certainly would make more sense to vote Green than to vote Republican.

As to your not so polite order may I offer an suggestion as to where you should put it?

Regards
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #120
147. Well, also, if these "feminists" were so concerned about having a woman president,
then they would've voted in huge numbers for Carol Moseley Braun in 2004. But they didn't, because Moseley Braun wasn't "viable." Why not? If it's "time for a woman president," then what makes Carol Moseley Braun or Cynthia McKinney supposedly any less viable in the eyes of the general public? Oh wait - I think I have a pretty good idea.

These Hillary supporters are NOT any more concerned about having a female president than they are about anything else. For them, their own warped brand "feminism" (which could more accurately be called "Hillaryism") is just a noble-sounding excuse for them to keep engaging in their own agendas. The Obama-hating Hillary supporters probably each fall into one of three camps. Most of them are either:

a) GOP Plants;

b) Closet racists;

c) People whose loyalty is to the Clintons more than it is to the Party, for whatever reason.

If they fall into the A category, well then fuck 'em, they're not worth dealing with. But the B and C categories are the ones that trouble me, because they've managed to defend either their own racism or their rabid Clinton devotion by claiming it to be in the name of "feminism." There's nothing feminist about playing Oppression Olympics and claiming any one oppressed group has had it any worse than any other. These people are not feminists, they're just people who have managed to mask very, very ugly impulses by cloaking it in the mantle a noble cause, all the while actually doing nothing to uphold any of the real tenets of the feminism they so claim to represent.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #147
160. good analysis! I believe these fake "feminists" to be nothing more than republicans
since they are so quick to say they'll vote for McCain. A Democrat would threaten either to sit it out or to write in another name. They also would have contributed financially to Hillary's campaign if they had "cared" so much.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #160
199. Did they all pay off her debts after her speech?
Obama should not have to promise her any money because the outpouring of all the
woman should be overwhelming now!:bounce:
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #147
172. Well said! Bravo!
:yourock:
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #147
196. Comment on how b might relate to feminism in their minds
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 07:02 PM by Hansel
I think that at least some of these women have harbored an certain animosity toward black males because in some of our biggest struggles black men have received their rights before women. The right to vote and the right to own property are two prominent ones that come to mind.

For older women, this is likely a sore spot. They might view it like this: At a time when blacks were considered 2nd class citizens by almost all of America and racism was rampant, they still had more rights than women did. I think for older women who either remember this from personal experience or more likely whose mothers or grandmothers did, that this opens old unhealed wounds and is humiliating. There behavior is irrational, but maybe understandable when you consider their experiences. I think some of this animosity will fade as emotions cool. Right now it is just too visceral for reason to prevail.

I think it is more about the symbolism of the black male getting there 1st, one more time, than hatred toward blacks. For them it's about unfairness, not racism, although it is likely a combination of both. But if you approach it as racism, they are taken a back and insulted. This is about their feelings and, once again, those who call them racists discount their feelings in favor of those of black males.
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DangerousRhythm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #147
200. Completely agreed.
It makes me sad, more than anything.
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mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
187. my sentiments exactly
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. I find your advocacy not allowing for the right and wrong Hillary has done.
Twisting facts and using the emotions on seating MI and FL to divide-just for her election.

I don't doubt her sincerity in wanting women to succeed, but for the causes which are bigger than her, she may have seriously hurt our chances.

And no Dem ever uses race and religion to divide as the Clintons have.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
72. Yes, the Clintons were
horrid to Blacks in the '90's. I'm amazed Bill was re-elected. They were just vicious people.

Blaming another woman, a very capable woman who has spent years working for women and children, for hurting your chances at what? Do you mean the election? So now if BO losses, you are going to blame HRC?? Holy mother of god. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If in doubt, blame a woman....is that your motto in life? Are you seeing anyone for those issues???
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. I'm as feminist as they come. And at 61, I've seen and done a lot.
Even through the 90's, their record was mixed, however much the symbolism was there, and Bill's feeling the pain.

The loss of Democrat office holders and legislatures nationwide were a Clinton by-product.

The Clintons have covered for all the Bushes, burying Iran-Contra criminality, giving us the team to rise again in Bush II, who Bill could not criticize in 2004, when he should have been promoting Kerry in 2004 on his book tour. Giving us Katrina mismanagment, and a space left open for Hillary.

Yes, there are consequences to politics and behavior.

After the 11 states, Hillary threw the kitchen sink to damage him. Let's hope she can undo some of the leftover hostility, and her storyline that she really won and wuz robbed. It was close, and he remained gracious.

Today is a great first step. She is strong, and an amazing compartmentalizer. I've met her, like her, I'm a NYer, but I don't trust her.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #99
123. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chisox08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #123
185. The reason why people claim that what happened while Bill Clinton was in office was HRC fault is
because she is the one that claimed Bill Clintons two terms as President was part of her political experience. She also claims the good of Bill's terms so she also must except the ills of his experience as well.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
117. There's been issues in the women's movement for years
It's just getting highlighted because of the presidential campaign.

But if you think that all was well before the primaries you would be sadly mistaken.

Regards
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
150. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
195. There's no crisis in Obama's campaign. And it's entirely UP TO YOU whether you choose
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 05:22 PM by Tesha
to support THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE in this election.

Of course, if you choose not to support our candidate,
then after Wednesday, you'll need to find a new forum
through which to spout your venom.

Tesha
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm still not convinced that this reaction is not just veiled-racism
These screeds seem to be much more anti-Obama than pro-Hillary. They seem to be angry that a black man defeated a white woman. It is no longer about the issues, and this cry of sexism is a smokescreen. Hillary lost because she was a bad candidate, and this attitude that Hillary should be afforded special treatment, and not get criticized for her mistakes, only hurts the feminist cause.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I don't think so...I know one of these people who fits this article to a tee...
I've known her my whole life (I'm now 41). She is not in the least bit racist, but she now believes that Obama is the root of all evil, and that everyone has conspired to steal the election from Hillary, who we "all" know is by far the most qualified candidate.

In most other ways, she's completely normal, has a professional job, etc.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The way American society is set up though, it is completely possible to seem completely normal...
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 09:21 AM by JVS
and still be racist as hell when push comes to shove. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to avoid having to deal with black people. Maybe occasionally interact with them as a customer. Someone that looks to many people like a bank teller or department store employee just beat their candidate.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. Well again, I've known this person for 40 years...she isn't racist
One of her two best friends for the last 30 years is AA. I could go on, but she is not racist, yet she still HATES Obama, and considers him a complete and utter fraud in every sense of the word. She is not racist, but she is clearly deluded.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. I take you on your word.
Obviously I don't know this woman myself, but there has been plenty out there to indicate that race may be playing a role in many (but likely not all) people's resistance to Obama's candidacy, even if they don't realize it themselves.

I grew up in a town with a lot of latent racism which usually lay under the surface because it was predominantly white. It's easy to believe you're not racist when you don't have to interact with racial minorities as equals or superiors.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. Maybe your friend sees the same thing I do
regarding BO....I remember that speech in '04 at the Convention...I thought it was no big deal...just words with little sincerity. Then everyone was all excited by him. My initial reaction to him was distrust. He's not what he appears. A very strong gut feeling. One can't simply throw those feelings away....well, I've learned not to. I'll hold my nose and vote for him. I've never done that...maybe we won't have an election???
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
98. What does he appear to be to you?
To me, he appears to be a savvy politician with a gift of the golden tongue and a good sense of the national mood -- one who was savvy enough to beat a popular former First Lady for their party's nomination. I happen to think that those same attributes will make him a great President.

I have to confess, if that's not what you think he is, I'd be curious to see what you do think he is.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #98
128. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #128
152. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way....
...but what you described is exactly how I saw Sen. Clinton. Doesn't make it accurate, of course, but it's how I saw her. So I empathize; I'd feel the same way if she was the nominee.

I won't try to persuade you otherwise; I know I wouldn't be persuaded if somebody tried to convince me that Sen. Clinton was actually a benevolent candidate. It's just interesting how two honest, intelligent people can look at the same situation and see completely different things.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #86
127. The way you feel about Obama is the way I've always felt
about Hillary. I just DO NOT trust her. Her behavior during the primaries did nothing to change my mind and, if anything, made me more distrustful of her.

I am a boomer woman, but Hillary does not speak for me. If anything, I think she has set the cause of feminism back decades by the awful way she ran her campaign.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #127
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #127
166. Well said!
:applause:
:woohoo:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
122. With all due respect
How many times have we heard "I have friends that are (fill in the racial group) it doesn't mean that the person is not racist. It means that the person has carved out an exception for their friend.

It's the old "oh you're different. You're not like them" routine.

It's still racist.

Regards
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #122
181. With all due respect, its pretty strange to automatically assume that because someone is racist...
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 11:03 AM by sfam
just because they hate Obama. This is a fairly limiting position - one that is quite racist itself. While I fervently support Obama, I absolutely believe that a very large percentage these crazed Hillary supporters don't hate Obama because they are racist. We may totally discount their version of reality (I certainly do), but its a stretch, and a nasty one at that, to simply discount their reality based on your unsubstantiated assumption that they are probably racist. That's just like some of the Hillary folks' argument that people don't support her because they are misogynists.

I would really hope we don't make those leaps of reasoning without basis. It is entirely plausible that their irrationality would be JUST as strong if Obama was a young white man who "took" Hillary's job. The narrative many are working off of is one they have experienced in life, where they as middle-aged, very experienced folk have had their career stunted, and find themselves reporting to a younger, attractive, less experienced male boss. This narrative works just as well regardless of the boss' skin color. For some reason, these people have fed all their life disappointments into Hillary's campaign, and look at her loss as the ultimate instance of sexism. Whether there is any truth to this or not is a separate issue, but I hardly think we need to slime all of them simply as racists.

Yes, Geraldine Ferrarro makes a good case for receiving the racist label, but I don't think everyone deserves it. Regarding to the person I mention above, I am positive she does not deserve it. She is clearly deluded beyond all reasoning, but she isn't racist.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. It seems to me that these women have been infected with the "I am ENTITLED" bug.
It beats me why anyone thinks she is the most qualified candidate. She botches everything she touches.

She is like Condoleeza Rice, she sounds like she knows what she is doing, but in practice she messes up all the big stuff.

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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. No, it's the first time Obama voters who are screeching THEY are entitled....
middle-aged and older women have EARNED their place to say any damn thing they want.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Can't anyone say anything they want?
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 10:29 AM by dkf
Since when is the first amendment earned?
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george_maniakes Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. since first timers knocked off someone who felt entitled to the nomination i guess...
some people cant accept theres a new sheriff in town.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
168. Wow, if I puff up my chest, does that make me more macho?
Who felt they were "entitled" to anything? Honestly, some strident Obama supporters have to find better arguments to bring people into the fold.

OOOO, new sheriff in town. Really, who? :eyes:
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george_maniakes Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #168
174. you said obama new-timers felt entitled, i responded your statement about older women showed...
you felt they were entitled. do you see my point? some hillary supporters have to do a better job of getting over it and moving forward.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
89. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. It was an election, the candidates ran their respective campaigns, that Obama motivated young &
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 07:24 PM by rosebud57
first time voters, independents, disgruntled Republicans, Democrats of every age and ethnicity to participate in a primary is a positive thing for the Democratic party and democracy.

He beat Hillary Clinton.

There is no do over simply because older white women insist they have ben deprived.

The Super Delegates are not stupid. They know about Operation Chaos, they are aware of her high negatives and her worrisome honesty rating. Kitchen sink not only did not work it damaged Hillary.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
90. Looking at the states HRC won, she
would have won the nomination under republican 'winner take all' rules. She got all the big states except IL. CA, OH, PA, MA, NY, TX.

If BO doesn't win, DNC better look at those convoluted rules they set up back in the '80's. They really don't make much sense....but we'll just wait and see. I'm just relieved I don't have to canvass this time around.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #90
129. And if the California primary were held today, she would lose!
There is a lot of "buyers remorse" out there among Hillary voters.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/05/22/new-poll-finds-big-shift-toward-obama.html

And I, for one, I am Democrat precisely because we DO NOT do things like the Republicans do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #133
180. Yes because working for our demoocratic nominee be it Barack Obama or Paul Hacket isn't good
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 11:00 AM by rosebud57
enough for you. I do not forget. August 2005 special election against Jean Schmidt. Ring any bells?
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #90
179. If the CA primary were in June she would have lost, pretending HRC did not benefit
from Operation Chaos & a wink wink code words for racist undereducated whites does not make her a stronger nominee ion reality.

She is viewed as dishonest. Super Delegates are not stupid.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. Your post proves the point of the post you responded to. The entitlement mentality is right there.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Entitled to what? THeir candidate getting nominated because he WON the primaries?
Gimme a break.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
74. Well, if we win the election....
...then yeah, we're entitled to have our candidate win. There seems to be a perception that older people's votes should count for more than younger people's votes. It just ain't how it works.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
83. What about middle-aged and older women that support Obama?
There's many of them, too.
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muryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
118. Yea, how dare people want out of Iraq
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 11:37 PM by muryan
We're entitled to not sending our soldiers off to die!

Obviously, we have issues :wtf:
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mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
189. you never "earn"
the right to talk down to people
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
124. That attitude is exactly what is wrong with the feminist movement nt
Regards
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #124
131. You started it...nt
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #131
193. The feminist movement is a bit older than I am thank you
And I'm not interested in taking credit for it.

Regards
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #124
170. Yeah, one's a real expert in a couple of months, eh?
Nothing wrong with the feminist movement, honey. It's not the one suffering, huh? :rofl:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #170
194. I've been reading for more than a couple of months.
But then it's hard to notice someone lurking. And just because I don't have 1000's of posts under my name doesn't mean my opinion is less valuable. I've seen lots of idiotic posts from people with 1000's of posts under theirs. What's your point?

As to your assertion that there's nothing wrong with the feminist movement, I suppose if you ignore a large number of feminists of color one can conclude that there's nothing wrong with the movement.

Oh look, you've just made my point for me.

Regards

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. so it doesn't bother your friend that Hillary Clinton is from the same old shit, status quo wing
of the Democratic Party, the backroom deal-makers, the other side of the neocon coin, the Bushies' best friends? How anyone could think Hillary was the "most qualified" is beyond me. She started out with every possible advantage--media obsession, giant war chest, huge name recognition, very popular former president husband--and just totally did not "seal the deal," in fact totally blew it. Her IWR vote also made her less than "most qualified."

By the way, any idea how much money your friend contributed to her campaign? It seems awfully strange to me that Hillary could be so broke with so very many "fervent" supporters.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Nope. Not compared to getting a woman president...
That pretty much trumps everything else for her - that's my interpretation. Hers is that Hillary is infinitely more qualified than the empty suit that is Obama.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. so why doesn't she support Cynthia McKinney?
... and, to be blunt, voting for someone solely on the basis of gender is downright stupid.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Because she wants Hillary to run in 2012...Cynthia McKinney is not..
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 07:57 PM by sfam
going to win. If McCain wins now, Hillary can challenge again in 4 years. Its pretty clear reasoning I think.

Regarding whether its stupid and counter-productive to vote purely based on gender, I clearly disagree with her. But in her mind, this principle is far more important than any issue. She truly believes the election was stolen from Hillary. And trying to talk to her in any rational sense is a TOTAL waste of time. The acidic anger comes dripping off her words when discussing (her perception of) what transpired.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. The only way hill could win in 2012 is if she has a Men In Black memory eraser. n/t
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
144. If McCain wins, there may be too much damage done by 2012
Get ready for a lot of very right-wing 7-2 Supreme Court decisions if McCain gets in!
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Ask her why she would consider voting for McCain instead of Cynthia McKinney
and you'll start to get to the root of the REAL problem.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. now THAT's a good point! why aren't these fake "feminists" lining up behind Cynthia McKinney?
as an over-60 female, I know feminists, and these ain't them.
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. Here's an excellent article
http://www.counterpunch.org/wise06072008.html

It's by Tim Wise, an excellent voice for anti-racism. The title of the article may put you off at first, but I encourage you to read it for its true meaning. I stole the Cynthia McKinney idea from him actually. :patriot:
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. Again, how does voting for Cynthia help Hillary get elected President?
Cynthia certainly isn't gonna win. By voting for McCain, they are trying to make Obama lose, and thus, open it up for Hillary in 2012. The reasoning is sound, even if we don't agree with it.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #56
126. The reasoning is stupid
They're claiming to strike back against misogyny so they vote for a party that puts into effect anti-feminist policies? That's not just stupid it's shooting yourself in the foot stupid.

How did running again 4 years later work out for LIEberman, or Kusinich, or Edwards, or Jackson?

That makes a lot of sense; if you have none at all.

Regards
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
125. I suspect that if the question were asked
it would remain unanswered.

But I'd love to be a fly on the wall when that happens.

Regards
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. It is for some people. Remember Harriet Christian? n/t
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. No it isn't
but I wonder if comments like yours are nothing more than veiled sexism, which is just as bad as racism.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
81. Sophistry.
:puke:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. They're such hypocrites whining
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 07:09 PM by zidzi
that "Obama didn't stand up for the sexist attacks enough" while hilary kept up her racist attacks.

Jeeze, maybe these women are crying 'cause of all the smoke and mirrors.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #91
113. Quit whining.. buck
the fuck up.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #113
134. I bet you
have lots of friends...or maybe not who will canvass with you. If your boy don't win, the dem party is over.

good luck
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
60. Amen! And that's exactly what I have been saying on all these threads....
Hillary's supporters seem to be predominantly female and have this entitlement mentality - Hillary has "earned" her place as the nominee, just as her supporters--because of their age--have "earned" the right for their opinion to carry more weight--than a first-time voter?!? This really sets me off because I am a 60s activist who still works against that blasted "entitlement" or elitist attitude that excludes others by placing oneself "above". BTW, those who bandy around the word entitlement might want to check the definition of that word. You probably won't use it to describe yourself in the future. Said it before and I will say it again: Hillary and her supporters have set the women's movement BACK because they demonstrated that they could not or would not play by the rules. When things didn't go their way--when Hillary didn't get the nod--her supporters flounced off in a huff, ranting and raving, ala Margaret in the Dennis the Menace comic strip. When Hillary did not concede earlier in the week but rather tried to incite her supporters by asking them to go to her website and voice their opinions about what she should do, she demonstrated that she WOULD not play by the rules. Further, because of their inappropriate emotional outbursts and unwillingness to abide by the democratic process as evidenced by the threats of voting for McCain, in my opinion they have made it harder for women to be taken seriously in leadership roles, or to be entrusted in any position that requires loyalty to the organization (or Party) rather than to a person. As far as I'm concerned, Hillary and her supporters have unwittingly (?) perpetrated a mutiny within the Democratic Party that is not going to be healed overnight. And no, her it's-all-about-me-and-you-and-the-women's-movement-and-where-we-are-going-to-take-our-country speech today with scarce mentions, much less endorsement, of Obama leave much to be desired. Go back and read the transcript of Hillary's speech today and decide for yourself. No, these party wounds are going to take a while to heal, if ever.

Well, I totally expect this post to be deleted.
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mamalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Well....
let me just get in here real quick then to say I absolutely agree with you... and I am a 51yo white woman. I think Hillary's and her supporters' behavior in this primary have actually been pretty stereotypically "feminine"(in the worst sense of that word) and have set the feminist movement back several decades. I appreciate her concession today... but sheeesh what a lot of damage she's done!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
96. I don't believe you would
know feminism if it bit you on your nose. Ever read any of Andrea Dworkin or other books that are classified in the bookstore as Radical Feminism? You might be surprised.

I certainly don't want to meet you in the local Dem office and get assigned to canvass with you. Ugh.

Gee, all of those HRC supporters that you dislike so much...and here I thought BO was all about 'Unity'??? Guess that doesn't apply to us 'feminine' bad women. Did you see how hard HRC's supporters worked for their candidate? Would have been nice to have some of them to help BO, wouldn't it? Maybe you're cutting off that nose to spite that cute little face of yours.

What hypocrisy.
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #96
114. It's funny you used that phrase because I've long thought
that Hillary supporters are the living embodiment right now of cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

BTW, nice little comment about "cute little face of yours." You're no feminist with language like that, that's for sure.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #114
137. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mamalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #96
151. I don't "dislike" anyone, especially not HRC supporters.
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 03:18 AM by mamalone
I may disagree with some of their tactics or viewpoints, but I don't waste my energy disliking people- we're all too valuable.

And as far as "femininity" being "bad", well that's not what I said at all. I am a woman who actively celebrates her femininity and happens to think that being a woman is a uniquely wonderful thing. That's completely different from the "stereotypical femininity" that was referred to in this thread... things like manipulativeness, or insisting that one is somehow exempt from the rules, demanding protection- also riding on the coattails of a husband or other closely related male.

But hey, thanks for saying I have a cute face! At my age I don't hear too many compliments like that so I take 'em whenever I can get 'em:D



edited to correct grammatical error
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. Well, I sure agree.
It's in the very first paragraph. The 'supporter' is angry that the DLC leadership didn't "defend" Hillary from sexism in the media. Excuse me? There's that bullshit meme again ... she needs "defending"?? (Poor Nell!)

That's not anything close to the 'feminism' I've supported all my life. It's reprehensible. It's Mayella Ewell whining in front of the court. Disgusting.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
93. No, we won't delete it....we like examples
of stupidity. If you are a hippie chick from the '60's, then I'm the Queen of England.

Why do you want to alienate HRC supporters? You need their help phoning, canvassing, organizing. You need to VOTE for BO. Why keep insulting them...you're old, too. You're a woman, right? WTF is wrong with you?

You certainly sound like a paid boy from The Heritage.

I read her speech and she back your candidate 100%.

I hate newbies....but I love Ignore. Say 'hi' to the folks at the RNC for me, OK?
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #93
115. Oh please.
You act like everyone should get down on their knees and smooch your ass so you'll say you'll vote for Obama in November.

And the fact that no one's kissing your ass is just pissing you off. Because that's all you have left: the threat of withholding your vote.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #115
135. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #93
163. What in the world about my post makes you think I am a Repuke!?!
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 09:07 AM by 1Hippiechick
"If you are a hippie chick from the '60's, then I'm the Queen of England."
No, most likely you are one of the younger Millenials.

"Why do you want to alienate HRC supporters? You need their help phoning, canvassing, organizing. You need to VOTE for BO. Why keep insulting them...you're old, too."
I didn't alienate the HRC supporters - Hillary single-handedly alienated them from the Party. I am 60 years old and very much female with two sons ages 33 and 35 and happily married to my husband of 38 years, and we are both activists and have been all our lives, having lived through and participated in the 60s which you probably only read about. I saw the assassinations of President Kennedy, Malcolm X, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr., to name a few, and with them, hopes and dreams for a better society, a more equal society. I watched the draft send friends to VietNam, never to return. Although a child myself at the time, I watched on television as black students under armed guard attended previously all-white schools during desegregation. Peaceful demonstrators were not treated so peacefully during that time. On television I saw college peaceful protesters killed at Kent State. I saw innocent people killed because of the fight for civil rights. I live a few miles down the road from Greensboro where 4 black college students staged their sit-in at a previously "whites only" Woolworth's lunch counter. Can you even imagine growing up during a time when public water fountains, public restrooms, restaurants, etc., etc., had "white only" signs posted? Can you imagine grown black men being called "boy" by whites? Or, their not being "allowed" to sit at the front of a bus, rather being relegated to the rear? I saw the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. Did you know that these basic rights were not even legislated until the 60s? Can you even imagine? Can you imagine living during a time when your generation realized that all people were not treated equally, and that we all had and have a responsibility to see that they are--then as well as now? Can you even imagine? And you ask me if I'm old. The better question would be, "Are you tired?" Yes, I'm tired of all the inequality and racism that still exists in this country, but not too tired to keep fighting against it. Am I old? To you, probably.

"You're a woman, right? WTF is wrong with you?"
Read response above.

"You certainly sound like a paid boy from The Heritage."
Read response above.

"I read her speech and she back your candidate 100%."
Which tells me that you are a HRC supporter. I suggest you read a transcript of her speech which is posted on another thread on here, afterwhich you may decide to rephrase your last sentece. Wasn't her speech 20+ minutes long? How much time was devoted to talking about the future of the Party or devoted to endorsing Obama? To me, it seemed more focused on women's rights which is a legitimate concern, but not the only party issue.

"I hate newbies....but I love Ignore. Say 'hi' to the folks at the RNC for me, OK?"
You hate newbies? That's part of that exclusionary attitude that I so abhor and have fought against all my life. I don't hate anybody. My life is devoted to INclusion, not EXclusion, which is why I love the Democratic Party. The response of HRC's supporters saddens me because they reacted rather than responded to what they believe was mistreatment. In anger, they would turn their back on the Party that affords them more opportunities for change than the Republican Party. Do you honestly think the Republicans will ever put forward a woman, much less a Black as their presidential candidate? Yes, HRC's supporters are disappointed, but need to regroup and channel that hurt into postive change--not turn their back on the Democratic Party. What exactly is the plan for HRC's supporters? Turn their back on the Democratic Party and alienate the Obama supporters? Then, I've seen posts where she will run in 2012. Under which party? Women are going to mobilize and "take over" the Democratic Party? It saddens me that Hillary's speech under the guise of supporting Obama was far from it - the speech continued to be all about her and women's rights with a few mentions here and there of Obama and the future of our country. I further believe that if HRC is sincere in uniting OUR party, she will come forward with more forceful speeches or correspondence that reflect on the necessity to support the Party. To do that, she will have to soft-pedal her being the candidate of women's rights and focusing on "what might have been." So, while most others are praising her speech on Saturday, I thought it fell far short and did women a disservice.

You may or may not be interested to know that I am Caucasian and was a Hillary supporter UNTIL Obama appeared on the scene. However, had Hillary won the nomination, I would not have turned my back on the Democratic Party.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
79. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
frickaline Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
103. I find it wrong to assume someone is racist simply for being extreme in the support
of their candidate. You cannot make the case that racism is the only reason for such behavior. While this motive may be true for some, to apply this across the board is just not right.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. They picked the wrong hand...
to throw all their chips in the pot.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. While I am troubled by sexism in the campaign
and agree that it would be best if Obama did address sexism in the US and choose a pro woman candidate as his VP (even if it is not a woman like Clinton), I think that McCain is a very anti woman candidate. These women might think that they are standing on principle, but electing McCain as president would be much worse for American women.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Dem women voters won't be taken for granted any longer
They won't stand for it; and if the party wants to keep them on board they're going to have to drastically change things.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. No one is being taken for granted, there was an election, one candidate won, the other did not....
nobody owes Democratic women a female POTUS. And let's be honest, it's not just a female POTUS you want it is a specific female POTUS only. This is a fan club.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. If Democratic women think they want a female POTUS
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 07:45 PM by OzarkDem
then that is what they will have. There hasn't been a single male Dem POTUS who has done anything of substance for women. These days they can't even win an election.

And don't begin to tell women voter's they haven't been taken for granted. They have - year after year after year.

If Dem women want it, they will get it. And when they do, they'll choose a woman POTUS will benefit everyone. Take it to the bank. Their acceptance in this turn of events is very conditional.

If you have a problem with that, I'll say good luck finding tens of millions of new Democratic voters.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. "I'll say good luck finding tens of millions of new Democratic voters" will you be organizing this
movement personally?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Its already out there
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 08:46 PM by OzarkDem
Fastest growing political movement these days, especially on the internet. Sorry, feminists aren't going to shut up and go away just because Clinton has conceded.

All feminists. Younger ones support Hillary, too. And older ones are willing to help those still too young or too naive to figure it out.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Older feminists you mean, right? Younger feminists support Obama...
Just sayin...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
76. Real feminists are antiwar. Always have been, too. n/t
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. Its already organized
and from the appearance of things, its not yet on board with Obama yet.

If you're smart, you'll reach out to them.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #62
162. To the fan girls on Hillary's blog?
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 08:53 AM by rosebud57
LEAVE THE PRESIDENT SPOT BLANK AND MARK DEMOCRAT FOR ALL THE OTHER DEMOCRAT LEADERS ON THE BALLOT. WE MUST HAVE A LARGE DEMOCRAT CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

WE WILL NOT VOTE MCCAIN. THE BO SUPPORTERS OUT THERE ARE FREE TO VOTE FOR WHATEVER THEY WANT FOR PRESIDENT.

IF WE CONTROL THE HOUSE AND SENATE THERE IS VERY LITTLE MCCAIN CAN DO.

NOW IF HILLARY RUNS FOR VP, HISTORY WOULD BE MADE IF MCCAIN IS THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT AND HILLARY IS THE DEMOCRAT VP !!!!!

SHOULD MCCAIN BE UNABLE TO FINISH HIS TERM, HILLARY WOULD TAKE OVER AS THE PRESIDENT ( FOOD FOR THOUGHT ) !!!!!

and

Also make sure the superdelegates who supported Obama get nothing. No vote for them during re-election.


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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
100. No....me and my crew
will help. Cuz if BO doesn't win this, the Dem party is OVER. OVER. And considering that HRC won ALL THE BIG STATES....(and under winner take all rules that the republicans use), HRC would have been the nominee. HRC won CA, OH, PA, TX, MA and NY....

Don't you think for one moment that folks in the DNC aren't a little worried about these new convoluted rules they developed back in the '80's.

SHE WON THE STATES WHERE ALL THE PEOPLE LIVE! As opposed to MT where they don't.

And your insults and alienation tactics against HRC supporters is not helping YOUR candidate one iota....now how smart is that?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
75. Right, All Dem women just love Condi Rice and would vote for her over Obama n/t
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
158. I, too, would like to see a woman president before I shuffle off this mortal coil,
but Hillary Clinton was not the person I wanted to bear that standard. A flawed establishment candidate is not what the nation needs now.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
164. You mean Dem Hillary supporters, don't you?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Well then, did the
racist attacks bother you?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. Of course
Sorry, but I was raised in a family where we were taught judging others and putting them down was bad, regardless of race, gender, income level, religion, etc. We learned fairness and equality for all. Different backgrounds, I suppose.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
186. Definitely
And I believe that Clinton would have addressed racism in her nomination speech and during the general election campaign.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. The MCcAin strategy is simply an antiObama strategy, read their posts, it's McCain 08 Hillary 12
they are assuming McCain to be a one term POTUS.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Whether McCain would only run for one term or not, they are really saying that..
its OK for the dems to lose, as long as Hillary gets a chance to run again in 2012. Furthermore, they think that they can swing the election to McCain. It just goes to show that those who hold this view care FAR more about Hillary being president than they do what she may or may not do there. For them, issues take a significant back seat to the idea of a woman as president.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. You said a mouthful! Amen!
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #47
165. I thought I would just read a few posts, but the herd mentality, the obvious lack of substance in
the posts, the poor reasoning. They can vote HRC for VP & McCain as POTUS for a split presidency, urging others to not vote for any Super Delegate that supports Obama, etc. OMG, this is a moderated blog. Are we to believe her blog has attracted only fan girls, a few men & a token GayGuy?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
12. Lots of rich people naturally want to vote rethug anyway
They are what I like to call "Fuck You Republican's". As In "I got mine, fuck you!"

These Hillary dead enders are natural born oppressors of poor whites and minorities anyway.

The dem party should be glad these haters are outing themselves. It just stinks that Hillary pandered to them in the first place.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s
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SDJay Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. What I find intellectually insulting...
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 10:40 AM by SDJay
is how folks are making claims of some sort of twisted 'bigotry' towards women in general within this context. If these boogey men who were systematically dismantling Hillary's chances do exist, then why would said 'bigots' do so in favor of an African-American man? Logically, this just doesn't hold water for me.

To put it into a sports analogy, it reminds me of Barry Bonds' chase of the HR record. He made claims of 'racism' as well when decrying the disfavor he encountered. How is that true when Bonds was chasing a record that was held by a fellow African-American?

Bigotry is a hot-button, hateful term that's over-applied in way too many situations, and it's a dangerous, slippery slope that frankly will be difficult to climb back up as everyone moves towards November.

I'm confident she'll do the right thing today, as not only does the GE depend on this, but her ultimate legacy will be defined by a large extent on this upcoming speech, fairly or not, as well.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Are you suggesting that all bigotry is equal? That...
Someone who is a misogynist is probably racist as well? Does this imply there are no AA misogynists?

This may be a side point to your query, as I agree with your main point that bigotry shouldn't be thrown around (by anyone) to get an extra slice of votes.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Sports analogies don't work
when trying to discuss women's issues and sexism.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
95. Actually...
...I think the Barry Bonds analogy works rather well.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. Not exactly...
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 11:04 PM by ellisonz
He's an arrogant fool with a gigantic sense of entitlement. The way their performances were brought about in a way that did not invite a sense of honor. Bonds did not deserve to break Aaron's record just as HRC did not deserve to beat BO. Bond's may be going to jail within 2-3 years and Mrs. Clinton is going home. They both definitely overstayed their welcome.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #109
138. And so have you....
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frickaline Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
105. Is it your claim that there was no sexism at all in this race?
Or am I misinterpreting your words here? It sounds to me from the use of the words 'boogey men' that you don't think there was any sexism here at all. Is that correct?
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #105
136. I think what drove me the most crazy about Hillary's rhetoric was
that there was all this "sexism" holding her down and preventing her from winning the nomination, bit then it was somehow going to MAGICALLY disappear in the GE and she would waltz to victory because she was the "most electable."

HUH? That just never made any sense at all.

And Hillary used sex as a weapon as much, if not more, than her detractors, so she really doesn't have a leg to stand on vis-a-vis the "sexism" claims, IMO.
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SDJay Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #105
211. No, I'm not suggesting
that there was no sexism whatsoever. I'm sure that there was. However, what I am suggesting is that saying that Hillary lost largely because of sexism without acknowledging that Obama won at least in part by overcoming racism isn't accurate in my opinion. They both faced obstacles, both of which are tied to senseless bigotry. One lost, the other won, but to blame one as a reason while ignoring the hurdle the other overcame doesn't seem logical to me.

When I say 'boogey men' I mean that it bothers me when intangible, immeasurable and to many imperceptible dark forces are blamed largely for any sort of result - and I do think the Bonds analogy is more than appropriate here, but that was eloquently explained for me above - it draws more scrutiny/skepticism than it would otherwise when the opponent has to deal with a similarly misguided attitude in many who make the decisions. To say otherwise hints that sexism is more prevalent than racism, and I don't think there's any way to quantify that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Poor little soundbite, amy siskind..
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 07:15 PM by zidzi
I hope her self righteous bitterness doesn't dry her up.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
106. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. Let sleeping dogs lie. Some will always be turned off when their candidate don't win. Now, let's
look to the future.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. They're not
sleeping.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. We will just have to find voters that are wanting to change the way things have been. That is all
there is to it. Nothing can be done for these folks.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. This is true..my son and I were
just talking about that..long distance.

And, this is just the embryonic stage of Obama vs mccain so some people need to get out how they feel about the last 17 months or so.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
28. One of the Better Responses
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 08:06 PM by Crisco
The media treated Hillary Clinton horribly, in blatant and subtle ways and Obama benefited greatly by it. But it wasn't just the media -- I believe she was also dissed by her own party when leaders like Daschle, Durbin, Kerry, and Kennedy et al chose to coalesce around the charismatic Barack Obama. I do not say that being black is an advantage in running for president or that he is some kind of affirmative action candidate, but I do say that supporting him gave them cover (in their minds, at least) from the negatives of opposing the first viable female candidate for president in a way that support for a white male would not. I feel that my party chose to give in to, and even buy into negatives that were essentially sexist in nature and created by Republicans during Hillary Clinton's tenure as First Lady rather than to support her and overcome them. I believe the true "urgency of now" that prompted Obama to run for president so early in his career was the support of party leaders who saw how vulnerable she was and took advantage rather than bolster her. That is why I am disgusted by my party -- forced by its leaders to choose between a female and an African American candidate. They created this horrible climate we now find ourselves living in. I don't forgive it or feel bound to endorse it with my vote.

Everytime someone went on TV and made a sexist or gender-based attack on Clinton and the party didn't respond, it gave a nod of silent approval that Obama benefited from.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Yes, that's true
And they have a lot of work ahead of them in repairing the damage. If not, they stand to lose tens of millions of voters.

Its the party's choice - keep treating women voters and candidates as second class citizens or lose a big part of your base.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. Another Good One
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 08:03 PM by Crisco
Which nails it good and proper.

If the Obama camp genuinely wants to understand the problem it should avoid listening to writers like Michelle. Who doesn't understand it at all. The problem isn't that Clinton lost. These long time female activist all know what it feels like to have your first choice candidate lose the primaries, all have time and again managed to go on to support, with enthusiasm, the winner -- because they believed the party, and its winning representative, best represented them, their principles and their political and economic interests. (And, by the way, for many of these women Clinton wasn't even a first choice candidate. You don't have to love Clinton to hate misogyny or the fact that the party you have devoted your time, energy and money to over the years is unwilling to condemn and defend against it.)

The problem this time around is something entirely different -- it is not disappointment because of a losing candidate, it is disillusionment with the party itself and a deepening realization that for much of the party establishment it's advertised commitment to women and their right to equal political participation and representation is little more than an empty come on if not an outright lie. And, another realization; that it is the attitudes of those on our own side (in terms of both class and gender prejudice) that explain as much, if not more, the lack of progress in terms of working women's vital economic interests, and the undermining of reproductive rights, over the last 30 years.

Those most offended are a generation of women who spent their adult lives standing up not simply for their own right to political and economic equality, but for the rights of others -- including a younger generation of women and men who are now reaping the rewards of those fights while actively deriding the women who helped make those rewards possible. Did Clinton lose because of sexism? No more than Obama won because of race. Did the ugly sexism on display in the mainstream and "progressive" media, tolerated and even sometimes indulged in by the male candidates (not simply Obama) and their campaign supporters and surrogates reveal the ugly depths of misogyny in the political as well as broader culture? Including in the "progressive" movement. Yes.

In the fight for equality in terms of political participation and against demonization of Democrats and liberals in the media, we looked around and discovered that as women Democrats and liberals, especially "older" women, we had no allies or defenders in the "progressive" media -- quite the opposite. No defenders in the establishment party. No defenders (and too often enablers and offenders) in the Obama campaign and its "movement." That is the problem. Not one candidate's loss or the other's victory.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #55
142. BECAUSE she was the "first viable female candidate" she was given
A LOT more leeway than any male candidate would have been. She kept whining about being "forced out," but she NEVER WAS. A male candidate in the same position would have been shoved out by the party back in April.

Again, as a woman, that OFFENDS me because she got preferential treatment BECAUSE she was a woman and everyone was afraid of the cries of "sexism!" Clearly, they had good reason.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. Tens of millions?
A few questions...

If Clinton has 'tens of millions' of women who feel this way, why didn't they save her campaign from ending up nearly $30 million in debt?

If there are tens of millions of women who are ready to bolt the party, would that not have been reflected in more female Clinton supporters than female Obama supporters here?

Even a good number of female Clinton supporters here have already signaled that they'll vote Obama in the general, so doesn't that question the strength and conviction of this 'movement?'

I'm not denying that there may be a good number of women who may not vote for Obama. but 'tens of millions?' I seriously doubt you can claim that high a number.

- as
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. Don't forget the independent women "swing" voters
who don't pledge allegiance to either party, but turn out to vote on election day. I know many, they're not politically active, but they do vote. And they're tired of hearing the promises of the Dem party when it can't seem to win presidential elections. You and I know there are reasons why that happened, but they don't. All they see is a party that can't win, and a party that can't win can't help them.

It would be great if Obama could win with only the votes of the people who are his core supporters. But he can't. Women like me will vote for him because we're loyal to the Democratic party and put that above the candidate. But there's a lot of other women out there who have to be convinced that Obama can win and that he will represent their interests. You're not going to get that done by trashing them.

Campaigns change once a candidate becomes the nominee. Its no longer a special club of people who think alike. Its coalition of voters becomes broader and more inclusive. That's the phase Obama's campaign is entering and you need to learn to adapt if you want him to win.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. What in the WORLD are you yammering about?
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 11:12 PM by americanstranger
I really don't know what you're driving at, but I'm perfectly aware that there are tens of millions of people in 'big states.' Unfortunately, that still doesn't prove to me that there are tens of millions ready to bolt the Democratic party. I keep hearing about it, but until it actually happens, y'all are talking out of your asses.

As far as being a 'newbie' - my first presidential vote was cast for Jimmy Carter. You might remember he ran for prez, oh, back in the freakin' Seventies. Yeah, of the last century.

Jesus, take some money out of petty cash and buy a fuckin' clue before you go off on someone you don't know. thx.

- as
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #112
140. that petty cash quip was a real winner...
Your boy doesn't win, the dem party is over. You got some work to do. MOVE!
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #140
148. Like I said - you need a clue.
Tell us all again how you canvassed in the past.

- as
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mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #140
191. ok - your second
"boy" comment has really shown your true colors. thank god there is an ignore feature here...
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #108
143. PLEASE stop posting THE SAME THING over and over.
It's tiresome.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #143
145. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #145
146. Yeah, you are QUITE the feminist, aren't you. Age-ist too it seems.
FYI, I've been voting for almost THIRTY years now and in '04 I raised money, made phone calls and drove to Pennslyvania and worked GOTV.

As for being a "newbie," that statement is just the kind of thinking that makes it clear that it will take intelligent, forward-thinking Dems and not "bitter" people like you to keep our party moving forward.

I truly feel sorry for you. It must being tiring to be so angry and spiteful all the time.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
173. "And they have a lot of work ahead of them in repairing the damage. If not, they stand to lose tens
of millions of voters." Sorry, I don't buy that - Hillary needs to do the repairing to the PARTY that she has divided.
:puke:
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. Does this assume that the party elders both recognized these attacks and were somehow...
responsible for responding to any gender-based attack by the MSM toward Hillary? Did the party elders truly "know" that Clinton supporters expected them to police the MSM for her? This seems to me to be a stretch.

I think its probably a fair criticism to say that many have problems recognizing some of the gender-based attacks for what they are, and let them slide far more than they should. I don't know that I buy the argument that it was the responsibility of the DNC to call out the MSM whenever these attacks were made. Does the DNC do this for state-wide races?
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
111. You remember Shirley Chisholm who ran for Prez?
She said: 'Men are men.' I wasn't a bit surprised by Kerry and Kennedy...they're men.

I wonder about these DNC rules that were used this time for the primary...they're new. If we had 'winner take all' rules, HRC would be the nominee. She took all the states with lots of people in them. Big risk....and are these newbies going to get out and work? We'll see. Cuz I'm not. I'll vote (holding my nose) and that's it.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #111
184. They became "new" in 1988. Jesse Jackson got them put in place...
They certainly didn't happen this election cycle. But again, your logic is that these rules were implemented to help Hillary lose, but ALL the early buzz was around Hillary. She STACKED the rules committee which was responsible for a virtually unanimous vote banning Florida and Michigan. She had TONS of Supes on board prior to any contest being decided. Obama was 30 points behind in the polls back then. Who exactly where these changes (which didn't occur) supposed to help?
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #184
197. I thought it was actually Walter Mondale that had a lot to do with the rules...
Changed around 1982, before the 84 campaign?
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #197
202. Nope, the proportional delegate system was brought on by Jesse Jackson's run in 1984
He didn't think the winner take all format allowed for an AA to really get any leg of steam going in the primary system, and thought a proportional allocation would give them a better chance to win. Funny that, ey?

So as part of his Kumbaya moment, they agreed to go to proportional delegates in 1988. The Supes were lots earlier than that - like 1972 or 1976 I think...
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #202
205. Thanks for the response...here's an article with overview...
You were right about proportional delegates, a compromise from Dukakis/Jackson in 1988.

The superdelegates were created in 1982, according to this article, post-Kennedy/Carter.

The article gives a good overview of reforms in the electoral process for Dems, going back to the 1970s.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/02/17/80s_rules_reform_skews_democrats_nominee_process/?page=1
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
50. "Daschle, Durbin, Kerry, and Kennedy et al chose to coalesce around the charismatic Barack Obama"
Did it ever occur to you that they decided to coalesce around Obam abecause he is a once in a liftetime political talent, and he is ours? That is a big part of why he won this election. People really really like him.

Perhaps the urgency of now is that enough Democratic politicians saw a candidate whose negatives were too high before it even started to risk running a candidate who may not be likeable enough.

You don't win elections by trying to convince people who hate your candidate that it was all a vast right wing conspiracy and they need to just think happy thoughts about the Clintons.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
80. The party never gave any response to racism either
Not a peep from Dean about "hardworking Americans, white Americans" at all.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
139. Maybe they saw Hillary for the weak and DEEPLY flawed
candidate that she was and because they wanted to WIN the White House in 2008, they backed the stronger candidate.

I think every time people make an excuse for Hillary that she lost for ANY reason other than being a bad candidate who ran an even worse campaign, THAT is the TRUE sexism.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
64. Webb? The new Senator from VA?
For VP? The Webb that votes with the Republicans? That Webb? The one just elected in '06?

Shit.

BO shouldn't make a speech about women unless he is sincere....that would be one interesting speech to watch. I bet he'll have Michelle go out and make a little speech to women...about how strong yet pretty they are, assertive but kind, hard working but organized, blah blah yak yak.

I don't think his campaign has women on the radar. Maybe he'll give the mandatory women ass-kissing
speech, but it'll be short.

I have to say I will be interested to see what he does say tomorrow and Monday. I never feel sincerity from him...he's charming and all, but that's it. No sincerity. I just don't buy the act.

Ever read Harper's Dec. '07 Michelle's interview??? Eyeopening.

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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
84. What I find fascinating.....
...is how similar some people's reactions to Michelle Obama have been to people's reactions to Hillary Clinton circa 1992, with an extra racial bonus added.

At the risk of being vulgar, do a Google search on "Michelle Obama" and "black bitch" with both phrases in quotation marks. It turns up 44,000 hits. Here's an interesting article on the silence of the women's movement regarding the racist and misogynist attacks on Michelle Obama. Talk about an eye-opener....

http://thegspot.typepad.com/blog/2008/05/michelle-obama.html

I think this is a discussion we, as a party, need to have once this election is over: do we truly stand for equal rights for all, or just for our particular identity group?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #84
116. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
85. Isn't choosing someone simply because they are a woman like...reverse sexism?
Sure seems like it. :shrug:
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #85
175. Not reverse sexism...it IS sexism...aka female chauvinism....
:loveya:
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ShadowLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
97. Attitudes like this are self destructive for the cause (in this case the cause of feminism)
Attitudes I've seen from some Clinton supporters lately on the news and such (women claiming stuff like "I'll start a write in campaign for Hillary in the general election") are just self destructive for the cause.

I mean all of the Hillary supporters should ask themselves this, what if Obama lost the nomination to Hillary and all of Obama's supporters insisted Obama was a victim of racism, and that they would never vote for Hillary in the general election because she benefited from racism and turned a blind eye to it?

Seems self destructive to fighting racism considering the GOP's history in appeasing racists and trying to suppress the voting rights of minority groups, doesn't it?

Here's another example of how it's self destructive, lets use the Iraq war to explain why this attitude works against your best interests.

Say there's 30 people in congress who have to pass funding to end the war. 10 of them are extremely prowar neocons who want to keep the war going. 10 of them are moderate antiwar people who want to slowly get our troops out of there over 1 or 2 years. The other 10 are extremely antiwar people who will accept nothing less then an immediate end to the war. In theory with 20 antiwar votes to 10 prowar votes the war should end soon, right? Well not if the extremely antiwar people get so angry at the moderate antiwar people for refusing to agree to an immediate end to the war that they vote against the moderate antiwar proposal, and force the moderates to vote for funding without restrictions on it to keep the war going (since the moderates fear a quick end to the war would be too chaotic).
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Your hypothetical wrt Obama supporters....
...absolutely would have happened. Let's not kid ourselves. We were bound to have a purging of either our latent racists or latent misogynists after this primary. Looks like it's the latent racists right now. We'll get to the misogynists later.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #101
210. After we let them take over the party?
Mmm hmm. :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #97
121. Deleted message
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #121
183. Agreed. This points to a larger problem of people being so wedded to their candidate...
Every possible action is seen as a perceived slight. When even minor slights are overt, the response is magnified. I absolutely agree that many Obama supporters would have been just as vocal at Hillary at this point in the election if Obama had lost, especially after rattling off 11 straight.

Bottom line, there are real consequences when two candidates engender such strong support. When questionable tactics are used on either side in such an environment, those consequences are magnified.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
171. When men lie, cheat, rape, and kill, where's the outcry they are destroying some movement?
n/t
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
130. I am the father of a six year old girl......
Edited on Sun Jun-08-08 12:27 AM by PatGund
.....and I do not want my daughter to grow up thinking she has to win by lying. cheating, and acting dishonourable. Nor to I want her to follow someone only because they are a woman, or a man, or of a certain colour. No, I want her to follow someone because of the calibur of that person - or lead if and when it is required of her.

Nor do I want her to believe that failure has to be greated by cutting off one's nose to spite their face.
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lancer78 Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
149. If these women
vote for McCain, then I will not sympathize with them when they lose the right to abortion. What these "feminists" don't realize is that if we fail to elect a Dem president then the most hard won right that they achieved will be gone.

I know it does not seem fair now that Obama is the nominee and Hillary is not. For many female boomers, this was the best chance for them to have a female president in their lifetime.

Maybe in 4 or 8 years she could make another run. I think she now understands what happened. America I think still needs more time to get over Bill. Yeah, he did a few good things as President, but a lot of us did not want that lying SoB anywhere near the WH again.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
153. I'm so fucking sick of gender essentialism and Clinton trying to commandeer the feminist movement(s)
the brutal truth is that women can be some of the worst oppressors of women's rights. Why anyone would think that a Clinton is a champion for any women besides the ones that write them huge donation checks is insane.

Would these same voters support Margaret Thatcher hypothetically because she has XX chromosomes? Cuz that's what Hillary Clinton is, Thatcher-Lite American Style.

Boggles the mind.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #153
157. Me too.
The idea that Hillary Clinton is uniquely qualified to be president, ipso facto, by virtue of her being female is patently absurd.

She voted for the Iraq war, the Kyl-Lieberman bill, and for cluster bombs. To use Jane Fonda's inapt analogy, she's a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a vagina.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #153
177. LOVE your post! Right on!
:pals:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
154. This is insane.
These people are acting like nobody has ever lost a nomination contest before.
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BeeBoppinLula Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
155. if people voted rationally Obama wouldn't be the nominee, so here's the other side of it. bottom li
line is: the treatment of Hillary and her supporters by the media and Obama supporters was so disgraceful and nasty it has become personal for many Hillary voters. Many of them simply will not vote for Obama under any circumstances now; like it or not, it is reality.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. So you admit it's nothing that Obama himself has done, because that's certainly the case
At any rate, the dead-enders will simply be replaced.

On one front, I'm willing to bet that a lot of new young voters aren't interested in being drafted into McCain's wars even if some embittered Hillary voters will work to put a war proponent in the WH.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #155
159. Wah Wah Wah
Only irrational people voted for Obama? Wah Wah Wah. Take your pathetic ball and go home.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #155
161. oh boo hoo. Like Obama wasn't skewered for 3 weeks over the nonissue of Wright
among other things.

And why would Hillary even begin the process of running for president if she couldn't take "the treatment" she got by the media? NO politican (well, no Democratic politician, in the current climate of corporate media) is immune from that, and she more than anyone should know about that, having engaged Mark Penn and STUPIDLY followed his Rovian advice (fortunately for the country she did, revealing her total lack of good judgment and soulless qualities before she bamboozled her way into yet another con-artist presidency).

Bottom line: Hillary ran a piss-poor campaign, she cried like a girl over her "treatment," expecting kid gloves or special entitlement or something, she engaged in smear and distortion of a fellow Democrat, she told lie upon lie, and she fucking LOST. That's how elections work. One person wins, the others lose.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #155
167. The stupidest post ever.
You win!
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #155
178. Ya know, I keep "hearing" about how Hillary was mistreated during this campaign. Examples, please?
:popcorn:
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #155
182. I absolutely agree that this is their position, but it really does take a leap of logic...
to assume Obama is somehow responsible for the MSM's treatment of Hillary, to the degree it was sexist. Its also a bit odd to say that the DNC is sexist for supporting Obama. Neither of these has evidence that supports their conclusion. What this forces these supporters to do is to say Obama is a slimy liar who never had done anything, ever. EVERY accomplishment in his life has been transformed to slimy, underhanded acts, which then they use to state as "fact" in explaining how sexist the DNC leadership is in supporting Obama when everyone "knows" how much of an underhanded "empty suit" he is.

I do agree that a good percentage of these folks don't care about the issues now in comparison to the perceived wrong they see - a wrong so bad that they truly will leave the Democratic party. The only question is how large a percentage we're talking about.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #155
190. "Wahhhh!! I love my victim status, and refuse to give it up! WAHHH!!!"
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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #155
198. Why would "rational people" vote for Hillary?
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #155
203. If people posted rationally we wouldn't need smilies like thisone
:rofl:

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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #203
212. I'm waiting for a temper tantrum smilie similar to the ROFL -just with a WAH expression and...
beating the floor (in other words, turn the smilie over with tears spouting out of his eyes and bawling.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
176. Good article, thanks for posting!
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
188. There won't be a crisis in the women's movement unless McCain is elected.
The end of abortion rights will set women back 40 years worth at a minimum. And that's not all. McBush isn't an equal pay for equal work kind of guy. Hillary supporters who vote McCain are rabid fans, not feminists.
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
201. most everyone posting here has missed a golden opportunity for unity
Edited on Mon Jun-09-08 06:50 AM by cap
most everyone is still re-fighting the primary here instead of looking at transition mechanisms to help Obama. If I were Obama, I would be looking at reinvigorating the women's movement into something that appeals to former Clinton supporters. I would make the speech on feminism -- if not by myself, than in conjunction with Michelle or by Michelle herself and come up with a concrete platform that supports the ERA and Equal Pay Act and put and equitable distribution of women in positions of leadership in the campaign. That would bring everyone around.

Barack should seriously consider a woman as his VP. If McCain puts on a woman with some serious moxie, Barack will have a much harder time with wooing female Clinton supporters. The problem is, that we dont really have a good farm system. You need women with national appeal and national exposure. As a party, we need to get depth in our bench with female and minority candidates... There needs to be replacements so that we don't get hung up on the merits/demerits of particular candidates
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #201
208. I don't this was designed as a unity discussion thread, but I agree about the woman ticket thing...
The thread was intended to discuss this strange dynamic we now see, whereby Hillary supporters that are acknowledged long-time feminists are actually planning to vote for McCain.

That said, regarding your second point, if Obama picks someone like a Jim Webb, who has some history with problems in his comments against women, if I'm John McCain, I work like the dickens to get a woman VP. I think it would be a very wise move for Obama to pick a well-qualified woman candidate like a Sebelius, for instance. My hope is that he doubles-down on the change message. Picking a woman VP not connected with past fights would be a terrific way of doing this.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
204. What Women's Movement? What have they done for poor women or women of color?
That's a facade - there's NO women's movement today except when it benefits middle class white women or the upper class woman.

How about come into the 21st Century and sign onto JUSTICE FOR ALL? - Reignite the Civil Rights Movement?
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #204
206. Those are good questions
But I don't think you'll get any answers. I mentioned that the attitude of certain feminists toward women of color might be what's wrong with the feminist movement.

According to the answers I received, there is no problem with the feminist movement with the implication that because I've not been posting on this board long I should just STFU. If you get a decent answer please let me know. I'd be interested in hearing it myself as I've not seen a whole lot that the feminist movement has done for women of color.

Regards
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #206
207. I think you can say that some things have benefitted everyone...
Edited on Mon Jun-09-08 03:00 PM by sfam
The right to vote, equal pay, and so forth. But clearly there has been a split of middle class, largely older white woman in one grouping, and AA women in another grouping. Perhaps the more interesting change is with younger feminists, who don't seem interested in either waiting their turn to be heard or in buying into the older generation's assessment and prescriptions.

I think the Obama/Clinton contest has sort of brought these groups to the forefront, which we've seen from the various blog-battles which have ensued.

EDIT: and yeah, it's fairly absurd attack to someone based on their total number of posts. It makes sense if someone has under 20 posts or so and is posting pure flamebait, but that's probably the only time.
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