To all my fellow Hillary supporters

[mtnsnake]

First let me say that I think all of you are the best. Having said that, I hope you all decide to vote for the Democratic ticket. For those of you who aren't planning on doing that, I respect your decision, but please give it a few weeks, and then ask yourselves this:

Do you really want to take a chance on seeing the environment get raped for 4 more years? Think about it. When George Bush took over, he did what all Republicans do. He flushed all of Bill Clinton's environmental regulations down the toilet. Our environment and our wildlife cannot stand to be pillaged for another 4 years.

Do you really want to see the wealthiest people in this country continue to get tax handouts at the expense of the rest of us?

Do you really want to see the fanatical Religious Right have a major say in the direction this country needs to take?

I'm not suggesting that you should kiss and make up with every person on DU who slandered Hillary, but don't let those people push you away from your party, at least not yet. Some of them, especially the ones who have done nothing but show up on DU to slander Hillary, are doing it because they don't want you to vote Democrat, period, so don't give them the satisfaction. There are lots of sincere Obama supporters on DU but sometimes they get drowned out by the multitudes of ones who are here for a different reason...to get you to vote for the other party.

Anyway, as tough as it is, don't let the media or people on a posting board decide your vote for you. If you're abstaining from voting for the Democratic nominee because of how certain DU'ers treated you or Hillary, then just take a break from this place, think it over, look at things from a different perspective, and then decide without the influence of anonymous posters from a message board stressing you into doing something you might regret a year from now. Time cures just about anything. If you still feel the same way then as you do now, the ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Look, the Republican who is running isn't George Pataki. He is John McCain. While McCain is an honorable American in some ways, and while he is a better man than George W Bush, his priorities do not fall in line with ours. McCain will bring us four more years of tax breaks for the filthy rich at the expense of the environment and at the expense of the rest of us. He will say "bombs away" before he says "let's talk this over".

mtnsnake

[PM7nj]

1. "...and the skies will open! the celestial choirs will sing!"

Way to go mtnsnake! First linfar and now you! I don't think we will have any problem with unity this year :)

[tbyg52]

131. With luck and vigilance, yes they will!

Please visit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203

[Kittycat]

2. ..

:hug:

[JI7]

3. kick and rec

[KAZ]

4. Pretty kewl Snake. Sorry I jerked you around before. FAMILY

Edit: Recommended!

[Oceansaway]

5. TOUCHE !!..n/t

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zulchzulu]

8. K&R!

Thanks for setting it straight on anyone who would vote for McCain.

I certainly understand people who supported Hillary Clinton now having to face what happened. It's not the End Of The World.

To choose McCain as a Democrat makes absolutely no sense unless you don't know what he stands for and what his 95% agreement with Bush in 2007 means.

[Straight Shooter]

9. Greetings, mtnsnake.

I'm calling it a night, just wanted to acknowledge you.

:hi:

[Fredda Weinberg]

10. Let's see if we can hold rational discourse ... of course, silly season

is not over. I, for one, have enjoyed conventions before and this one will not be dull. Thanks to HRC, it won't be entirely useless, either. Remember, I've heard this all before ... many times ...

You are seeking support from those who have been disrespected and abused. I, for one, never suffer such foolishness, but then again, never left or got TS'd. YMMV.

As for those whom you address, I suggest you start over by acknowledging that the opposition is not evil. Yes, that's right ... our opposition is not demonic. Then, we can have a campaign all of us can rally around.

Now do you understand the difference between HRC support and 'netroots? We respect civility.

Abortion is no longer a political issue, my child. The morning after pill and effective private techniques have gone far beyond later term pregnancy and parental notification. That boogey monster won't fly.

And neither will the Supremes. Much as they disgrace themselves, they have always been thus and the republic survives. As I've shared before: Hurray for our side!

Now, as we clean up this mess ... if we can, let's see how this rational response plays out. It will define DU ... not me.

[PM7nj]

13. The "opposition" is not evil?

Sure... killing Iraqis, rigging elections, gutting the economy, wiretapping citizens, disrespecting veterans... none of that is evil.

[Fredda Weinberg]

14. There you go ... down to defeat ... next? n/t

[PM7nj]

15. I don't understand what you are talking about. nt

[Fredda Weinberg]

16. First of all, this is public discourse. I will treat you civilly and believe it or

not, this is what your candidate requires of you.

In order to run a successful campaign, to win over constituencies that currently are hostile to the presumptive Democratic Party nominee, we will need to adjust our manners.

Yes, old fashioned conduct. Think what you like, but seeking cooperation means tolerating others' mistakes. If we want our candidate to lead the nation, we can't declare war on ourselves.

Surely you can follow that logic. It dictates our behavior as silly season concludes. In fact, if we do this right, everyone will enjoy this.

[PM7nj]

23. The Republicans didn't make mistakes.

First of all, I have never been uncivil to you.

They didn't "mistakingly" get into Iraq or "mistakingly" spy on millions of Americans. They knew exactly what they where doing.

I agree that we shouldn't "declare war on ourselves," but if we want to win we have to differentiate ourselves from their failed policies. If not, then what is the point?

[Fredda Weinberg]

41. Please, don't take personal offense. This is a public discourse

If you don't think Republicans were fooled, ask Greg Palast. It's no violation of confidence to state at this time that back then, he was fooled too. So there.

Now, do you want to start demonizing everyone capable of human error, or continue this dialogue?

[foo_bar]

54. "ask Greg Palast"

WHAT GREG PALAST JUST TOLD ME ABOUT FREDDA WEINBERG <...>

You continue to dazzle us with your uncorroborated resume as a "computer engineer" and suggest that Greg Palast, somehow, can vouch for you.

Well, I just spoke to Palast to ask who the hell you are, and he says that you are/were a tech support person (as opposed to a computer engineer) who worked for him for short time before being dismissed for "lying and financial improprieties"

Further, he went on to add that you are (and he agreed to be quoted directly on all of this), "a deeply disturbed person who was dismissed with cause" and that "anything she says is completely not credible."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=484577&mesg_id=484634

[Fredda Weinberg]

73. Good. Now look it up. I'm right and he's on record. Excellent. And you fail

to refute my premise, which only goes to prove this is personal.

[foo_bar]

83. I guess we shouldn't literally "ask Palast", then

In the meantime, feel free to look up my history ... most is online ... and you'll see you've misjudged me ... anonymous critic.

Done.

Don't lecture me, child. I have no boogey men in my life, just mature relationships that accomplish real goals.

versus:

I'd like to see him address the Black Jews, who preach violence in the streets. Sorry for the incidents? Heck, <Obama> could do something about it. Instead, my people are demonstrating for the first time since my childhood.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6084458#6085431

I'm sorry, what was your "premise" again? Your words:

which only goes to prove this is personal.

versus your words:

But your tone reveals that you aren't ready for reproduction ... shame, but it could happen to you anyway.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6308477#6309592

While I'm sure you had your professional differences, I can definitely see where Palast was coming from.

[Fredda Weinberg]

106. Where did Palast deny he was fooled? The rest is literally his problem

And if you must know, my mother forgave him. I knew I was doing - she was the disappointed one.

For the record, after I severed my relationship w/Greg, I was paid by the same non-profit incubator that housed the program I was forced to close. As I said, this is all a matter of public record. Anyhoo, Joan Sekler is alive and well and interviewing the Iraqi ambassador to the UN this week ... she can vouch for my resume.

Again, if you ask the specific question: Was Palast fooled along w/the Republicans the answer is yes. We argued over my mother's kitchen table ... not yet doing hospice @ home but it was inevitable.

Professional differences? The poor man settled w/Mario Cuomo and I had to file an affidavit. Again, a matter of public record.

So, which one of us was right about Iraq and quite frankly, everything else? I'll give you more references if required.

[foo_bar]

115. I'm sure she'll "vouch for your resume" the way Palast did

WilliamPitt:

17. At least one of them brawled because said person is totally, completely, absolutely barking mad.
<...>
Chesapeake:

27. you mean the one badmouthing bev and naming him/her self conason's PR rep?
<...>
Chesapeake:

30. eerily........ Was being sarcastic (maybe she IS). Yeh,_very_ familar M.O of butting in where not wanted and magnifying non-existent role
<...>
Chesapeake:

72. it's part of a pattern

He or she did it to palast who really did use her uh services before wising up,then tried to do it to Mark c. Miller but he was warned....
Then Will Pitt got the treatment.
Now he or she is giving notice conason's "_availability_" as if an agent.
<...>
Chesapeake:

259. as suspected no help was requested and role is invented and magnified
Typical

<...>

Chesapeake:

275. yup sounds like roles invented out of wholecloth.

To anyone whose B.S. meters are on after palast and Will became victims. No one with a clue about certain histories would want _that_ kind of,uh help.
Mark Crispin Miller got aclue in time and chose to keep his internet supporters not turn them all off by associating with obnoxious _helpers_. He was attacked later for the scorning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x112500#116613 (August, 2003)

So, which one of us was right about Iraq and quite frankly, everything else? I'll give you more references if required.

More references? You haven't provided any yet, unless you count "ask Palast", which didn't turn out too well. It seems you have a reputation for claiming other people will vouch for you when they won't, and exaggerating feats which no one can vouch for.

[sniffa]

124. I'm loving the links you're supplying

I hope it keeps up. :bounce:

[foo_bar]

148. the testimonials are in! "absolutely barking" -William Pitt; "a deep...person" -Greg Palast

I'd hire him/her, if I ever wanted somebody to defect to a competitor and fuck their shit up like a trojan horse. I only hope s/he gets to "_help_" McCain in some substantive capacity from within.

[StevieM]

21. Stick to the Supreme Court. Rightly or wrongly it is the best way you have of getting out votes

In the mean time I already plan to vote against Obama in the 2012 Democratic Primaries.

Steve

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Steve, I'm not particularly worried about your vote in 2012, but...

Don't you think you should wait and see how Obama does as President before you decide how you will vote in the 2012 primaries? Also don't you think you should wait to see who runs in the 2012 primaries? Lyndon LaRouche might be Obama's only opposition.

[StevieM]

33. I've already resigned myself to the fact that he will be one of the worst presidents

in American history.

But I'll tell you what. If I agree to give him a chance, then will you consider voting for whoever defeats in in the 2012 Primaries, if it happens? Or will you be bitter and sit home, thereby allowing Mitt Romney into the White House.

Steve

[Hippo_Tron]

37. Barring extreme circumstances like Lieberman gets nominated...

I will vote for the Democratic nominee in 2012 even if they do somehow defeat President Obama.

BTW, I don't think it's gonna be Mittens. I started a thread in GD about how I think the Republicans will go with either Lamar Alexander as the seniority candidate or Huckabee as the "I told you so" candidate. Mittens is the type of candidate who simply can't win the GOP primaries unless he is an incumbent VP. He can't market himself to the evangelicals no matter how much money he spends.

Maybe Bill Frist will give it a go in 2012.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. You must have a time machine, or a crystal ball

or some sheep entrails or something. :shrug:

[Political Heretic]

55. Why will he be one of the worst presidents?

?

[roseBudd]

64. Because Stevie says so? Is that like the Great & Powerful Wizard of Oz?

[Political Heretic]

137. Yeah of course he won't respond. Because its totally irrational. It just translates as "I hate O"

That's it.

Not the best candidate? Sure, someone could give substantive reasons why another candidate might be better. Worst president ever, that just reflects the mindset of some who truly just hate Obama for no reason other than he ran against the candidate they supported.

[laugle]

141. Right now

Jimmy Carter has that title. Rookie's don't usually do well. He's such a crap shoot, in such an uncertain, dangerous time. Of course anything is better than Bush. Your expectations of him have been way to great for any human being that you are bound to be let down.

If he stops the war, without chaos, and gets our economy humming again, I would be happy with that. I prefer lower expectations.

[ima_sinnic]

57. what an idiotic thing to say! please enlighten us as to what he will do that will be the "worst"

you just sound like a desperate operation KKKaos holdover.

[eagertolearn]

132. I hate to say this Steve but your sound of tone sounds just

like my very republican mom when she talks to me about Obama. She too can't come up with any reasons why she thinks he would be so bad. Good luck.

[sufrommich]

133. Oh...my...God.."one of the worst presidents in history"..

we've just suffered through 2 moronic Bush terms.Were you alive and paying attention during the Reagan years? Get a frickin' grip.

[BlueJac]

81. Who cares about your 2012 threat.....

It sounds so scary. Hillary would not challenge a sitting president from the same party. Everyone else would fail. You are making me so nervous.


Me

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Fredda, with all due respect, exciting conventions are a thing of the past

In the era of 24 hour cable news and even more so in the era of YouTube, these things are carefully staged events with no surprises. Rest assured that part of the discussion in these meetings that Clinton and Obama are having right now is about ensuring a smooth convention.

[Fredda Weinberg]

50. Excuse me for not accepting your assurances, but I've played the MSM

myself. The drama that will unfold will be scripted, yes ... and HRC will carry influence not respected by others @ DU. But don't worry - it'll still be fun to watch. '68 was painful ... I did see live coverage. We don't need that kind of excitment again, I'm sure ...

[eagertolearn]

134. I believe that what Hillary said in her speech today was truthful.

Many of her supporters were dissapointed in her speech on Tuesday and i think we were all relieved that she came on board in a very positive way. There is no way that she is going to cause riots in Denver and if some of her supporters cause problems then they will be in the minority. Getting the republicans out of office is our number one priority and I believe that most of Hillary Clintons supporters will see that. Are you talking about the riots that Rush wants to start? I didn't quite get that but anyone that stands there with crazy Rush will look pretty crazy too.

[smiley_glad_hands]

26. Sorry, but the bigotry of the right is evil.

Their lack of empathy is evil.

I could go on, but to you it seems that the cynicism of reality has faded your hope for something better.

[Fredda Weinberg]

51. Do you know the definition of cynicism? Sorry, but it doesn't apply in my case

In fact, my long term plans depend on the essential goodness of humanity. But humans are, at best, weakly empathic and bigotry ... please, even the beasts in the field know their own kind.

So, get real and keep a civil tone. We'll get through silly season and if you want to see more positive things happen, stay tuned. In the meantime, feel free to look up my history ... most is online ... and you'll see you've misjudged me ... anonymous critic.

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. "beasts in the field know their own kind"

THAT is classic racist speech.

Just when I was considering clearing my 'ignore' list.

It still has it's uses.

[smiley_glad_hands]

123. I can only call it like i see it. eom

[OilemFirchen]

129. When Silly Season ends

will you finally ditch that stanky sackcloth and get the old prison guard uniform outta storage?

[laugle]

143. Oh your making me laugh so hard!

Oh that felt good, haven't done that here in a long time.

You are a howl................

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

60. And the first one back on my ignore list. Who needs this shit. nt

[FlaGranny]

94. Whoever that was,

he was still on my list. ;-)

[bicentennial_baby]

36. "Abortion is no longer a political issue"

You are fucking insane. It's official. I and my reproductive organs say FUCK YOU!

I'm so done with your smug and swarmy crap. Seriously, fuck you Fredda. You're an abomination in the Dem. party.

I happily and finally put your racist and deluded ass on ignore.

[OzarkDem]

39. Women's issues include much more than reproductive issues

We do women in this country a grave injustice by marginalizing the scope of issues, health care and otherwise, to just one. Our party leaders need to learn that. It causes tremendous harm and suffering.

[Divernan]

40. Isn't that INSANE to say abortion is no longer a political issue?

What universe does Freda inhabit? She lives in her own little world of delusion where all the women are already in menopause or wealthy and informed enough to travel across state lines to find a clinic, or have morning after pills handy?

That opinion alone is enough to tell all in DU that Freda is 5 cans short of a sixpack. No, make that 6 cans short.

[bicentennial_baby]

43. Apparently!

:crazy:

For me and my niece and my (hopefully) future daughters...I pray that women will not be as stubbornly dismissive of our rights and reproductive concerns.

And that's all I can say w/out getting deleted. :)

[Fredda Weinberg]

77. You have to admit it's not the same issue @ '72 or feign ignorance

When you can take a morning after pill, contraception is no longer associated with wire hangers. The hot button issues are parental notification, where judicial supervision should be a right - and late term procedures, which should be a medical decision, not political.

If you can't follow the news, you don't deserve respectful dialogue. But this post is for others, who may not have paid attention as closely as I have for this long.

[merh]

86. You are so mistaken, over the last 7 years the reproductive rights of women have

been under attack by the right on more fronts than the abortion issue. You can't be so uninformed that you don't know that some pharmacists are refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control and morning-after pills, saying that dispensing the medications violates their personal moral or religious beliefs.

[awoke_in_2003]

90. "When you can take a morning after pill"

When is a very good word. What if you live deep in the Bible belt, and your pharmacist refuses to dispense thing morning after pills or birth control pills? What if every pharm in town is the same way- don't think that that is far fetched. Down here you can't throw a rock without hitting a bible thumper.

[eagertolearn]

135. The morning after pill is not the answer. Many have died taking that. n/t

[Fredda Weinberg]

52. I wish you well ... my reproductive organs have no reply. As for accusations of racism

I'm afraid you're out line. But your tone reveals that you aren't ready for reproduction ... shame, but it could happen to you anyway. Abortion is never a rational subject ... but it's not the same as your mother's generation. We won't go back to wire hangers again ... but parental notification, waiting periods ... will have to be adjudicated - my personal opinions do not matter.

[Shakespeare]

103. No, she's not out of line RE the racist comment.

You own what you post, and we've all seen what you've posted.

[sakura]

121. It's good to hear that your reproductive organs have no reply.

If they were talking to you, it would mean that you're even more delusional than the bulk of your posts suggest.

[VolcanoJen]

100. Good Gawd.

It's an exciting, historic day, and there's someone running around saying that abortion is no longer an issue?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

Great post, bicentennial_baby. Thanks for standing up to this divisive, delusional nonsense.

[Shakespeare]

102. Bravo!!

Yes, let's all talk about what a great guy McCain is.

It's not just reproductive rights, either--it's a thousand other things that are fundamentally opposed to what we allegedly stand for as democrats. Another big one that she's conveniently overlooking is the carnage that is Iraq. The other side wants to stay there, and continue killing Iraqis and our soldiers. That, alone, is reason enough to consider the other side an absolute no-go.

[sakura]

42. Do you really think abortion is no longer a political issue?

Please, please tell that to the thirty or so demonstrators about three blocks away from my house who are standing in front of a vacant lot. It's where the new Planned Parenthood will be built. Ground hasn't even been broken there, yet there they stand, holding five-foot-tall photographs of dismembered fetuses. But I guess they're wasting their time, as they most likely haven't heard the news that this particular boogey monster no longer flies. I have to say, though, that regardless of their ignorance of the big news that you have shared, I am getting tired of having to shield my eight-year-old son's eyes when we drive past. I don't dare walk past with him-- he is not ready to have a discussion of the reasons people might need to end a pregnancy, and what it might look like to do so. He's a smart kid, but even smart eight-year-olds have trouble wrapping their minds around the concept of greater and lesser good, dilemmas, etc.

Please also tell the fourteen-year-old who cannot get the morning after pill now because her pharmacist refuses to dispense it due to his religious beliefs. She will be very glad, I am certain, to hear that governmental support of his actions has nothing to do with politics.

And once Roe v. Wade is history, please tell that to the doctors who will be put in prison for performing abortions, whether they are public or "private", as you put it. (Didn't they once call "private" "back alley"?)

And finally, please also tell the pregnant cancer patient who will die if she doesn't get chemo or radiation. I am sure she will be happy to hear that the loss of her right to control her body isn't a political issue, and that her fetus has more rights to her body than she does.

Perhaps you think reproductive freedom is no longer an issue because it isn't currently one for you or your loved ones. I myself can't have any more children, but someday my son will. I would like for his future partner and daughters to have the freedom to control their own body. But even if he never has children, the overturning of Roe v Wade will still affect me, and you as well, as we are both part of this society. I wouldn't wish on anyone such an unnecessary return to the past. Do you? I cherish the right to control my body in this way, even though I have never had occassion to use it.

Sorry, but that monster does fly. And it's real, not the boogey man of your imagination.

[Divernan]

47. Thank you for taking time to provide very relevant and concrete examples

Of course, Freda, being one of the most rabid of HRC supporters, can never admit she is wrong about anything, let alone engage in meaningful debate on an issue.

[Fredda Weinberg]

49. I was 14 and kept my pants on. Sorry, if she gets pregnant, her parents

must be notified. Period. Pun intended.

Reality is that I can get safe and private pregnancy termination in my state without seeing a doctor. YMMV, but the debate isn't what it was in '72 ... I was 12 and facing my own choices.

Don't lecture me, child. I have no boogey men in my life, just mature relationships that accomplish real goals.

[LaurenG]

88. Fredda stop with the condescending tone and don't make those of us

who are your elders put you in line - "child."

You will reach no one with your tone. Good luck as you pay your karmic debt to society if you decide to vote for McCain. You are correct, the republicans aren't all bad but neither are any of the people in this country who are looking for change. Take your "elitist," "been there done that" attitude and do what you will, the rest of us will work this out with or without you.

[sakura]

97. As usual, you completely missed the point.

When you were fourteen you kept your pants on, but when you were twelve you didn't? Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

Your premise was that even without Roe v. Wade, women/girls will have access to abortion services/abortifacients. If abortion is outlawed, how will that be possible? Your logic isn't even circular. It's completely twisted into a moebius strip.

The point I was making had nothing to do with age, by the way. A 25 year-old, married woman dealing with this pharmacist would face the very same problem. Surely a married woman doesn't need to keep her pants on and legs crossed, does she? How sad that you place all the burden on the 14 year old. A few years ago, I taught a young girl whose father raped her. She made the mistake of confiding in her mother, who blamed her, and wouldn't allow her to get an abortion or give up the baby. This girl, who was lucky enough to be placed into a teen parenting program at my school, referred to her baby as "it." I can only imagine the life her child is facing. This girl would not have benefited from a parental notification law-- and the same is true for a lot of teens. Those laws aren't written for the children of reasonable parents. They're written for the kids who have nowhere to turn.

And in case you have been living under a rock for the past few years, it has been shown definitively that abstinence only education DOES NOT WORK. For many kids, telling them to keep their pants on is akin to telling them not to eat or breathe. Sex happens, whether you want to believe it or not.

And by the way, calling someone "child" is insulting. It's just as ageist as someone assuming that because you are getting on in years, your brain is slowly but surely decaying. But you already knew that, didn't you?

[sniffa]

122. I'm sure it was all her choice too

[JNelson6563]

116. How nice for you

that you live in a world that gave you a mindset to where it never occured to you that perhaps the pregnant 14 was impregnated by a parent or some other adult in her life abusing her.

Oh but if a girl is pregnant at 14 she must just be a stupid slut, right?

I never really noticed you before today and frankly I'm sorry that I have now. I am sickened at the self-righteousness mixed wtih cluelessness that you display in this thread. You're a Clinton supporter? Funny but I'd wager $100 that Senator Clinton would also be horrified at your behavior and views being spouted here.

Me thinks you're on the wrong forum.

Julie

[awoke_in_2003]

93. I think the problem today is

that the rights that women fought for 30 years ago are not appreciated by the younger girls. They take it for granted. I took US Gov't course 2 years ago. When we got to Roe v Wade, the (male) professor asked how many supported a women's right to have an abortion. In a class of 30, split about half male/female, 3 people raised their hand- me (a male), another young man, and the professor. I will tell you what, the people in that class really heard it then.

[sakura]

98. I think that is definitely a problem...

... but taking away access to safe, legal and confidential abortion won't help. Most college age girls have been inundated with propaganda from the right about the horrors of abortion, and due to schools' reluctance to speak freely on the issue, haven't learned much about the bad old days. The answer, I think, is to educate them, not to take that right away.

[awoke_in_2003]

110. I think you may be mistaken in what I said

I in NO way advocate taking away a women's right to choose. It is her body, not mine. And I wholeheartedly agree that young people do need to be educated on safe sexual practices, and the horror of back alley abortions. I was not balking at Fredda discussion of day after pills, but her premise that abortion is no longer an issue. It is an issue, and if we don't pay attention another right will be taken away. The religious zealots have been attacking legal abortion since its adoption, and the furor seems like it is increasing. At least that is how it looks here in Jesusland.

[sakura]

120. Sorry...

... I misunderstood. :-(

There have been quite a few people on this forum who have suggested that the best way for those "young people" to learn the appropriate lesson is to let McCain and co. take away their rights. Sorry that I lumped you in with those folks-- you're obviously not one of them.

[DerekJ]

44. The new BenD

[JTFrog]

61. "It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed."

"It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html?ex=1370232000&en=a866eb4f19d8a37e&ei=5124&partner=facebook&exprod=facebook

I am a retired gynecologist, in my mid-80s. My early formal training in my specialty was spent in New York City, from 1948 to 1953, in two of the city’s large municipal hospitals.

There I saw and treated almost every complication of illegal abortion that one could conjure, done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and probably uncaring. Yet the patient never told us who did the work, or where and under what conditions it was performed. She was in dire need of our help to complete the process or, as frequently was the case, to correct what damage might have been done.

Another woman past child bearing age claiming that abortion is not a political issue. Too old to care, but too young to remember. Conservative justices have already removed 2 of the 4 pillars that Roe v. Wade is based on. But, surely it's all just a wingless boogey monster.

And just for a little added food for thought. WFRA: The Clinton-Lieberman team up to try to effectively give medical professionals the right to refuse your all encompassing solutions - the morning after pill and effective private techniques.

[Fredda Weinberg]

79. What are you putting in quotes? And who says we're past child bearing

age? This is the 21st century ... and you want, for political reasons, conformity on a subject w/o a rational basis? You're no better than the opposition you claim to despise.

I was raised in a parochial society but make my choices on the best scientific evidence. Right now, emergency contraception is more private, safe and accessible than ever. HRC is my state senator and there's no problem getting the morning after pill in any planned parenthood clinic.

[JTFrog]

87. The quote is in the linked article by an 80 year old gynecologist who experienced both centuries.

"I was 14 and kept my pants on".

To top off everything else you posted in this thread, that comment pretty much sums it up for you doesn't it?

[roseBudd]

63. "Abortion is no longer a political issue, my child." maybe if you are postmenopausal

but even if you are you should care about the women who are not.

[Fredda Weinberg]

76. Actually, no. I'm planning my family now, in fact. But when I was

growing up, there were few options and none medicinal. Sorry you lack perspective, but it has changed the political landscape, whatever your personal anxieties. I share them, but this is supposed to be rational public discourse.

[Leftist Agitator]

85. Well, let's see...

If you were 12 in 1972, then you were born in 1959 or 1960, which makes you either 48 or 49 years of age.

"Actually, no. I'm planning my family now, in fact."

Sure you are, Fredda. Personally, I think you're full of shit. Unless you're adopting. And if you are adopting, then the question of reproductive rights and freedoms doesn't really apply, now does it?

[Fredda Weinberg]

108. Do I need to submit to a medical exam? Sheesh, I spent my 20's on the pill

and rarely ovulated. I've probably got healthy eggs for another few years and David finally says he's ready. We'll need screening anyway ... we're from the same tribe and all.

So what if I was born in 1960? He was born in '59 and we married in '78. If it took me this long to get my education and career stable ... my mother would say, "Well done!"

But then again, I took care of my parents first. So say what you will, I'm staying w/my brother because it was my turn for grad school. Again, my mother had her Masters ... it was the least I could do.

I'd advise any female as da Momma told me: Put your career first ... kids can wait. Don't let ignoramuses scare you ... we can do this in the 21st century.

[foo_bar]

127. you seem a little ignorant of biology to be giving reproductive advice

Myth:
Sheesh, I spent my 20's on the pill and rarely ovulated.

Biology:

Let's review some basic biology. Women are born with all of the eggs (oocytes) that they will ever have. A female fetus will have the greatest number of eggs around 16-20 weeks of pregnancy (5 million); at birth this number decreases to about 1 million; and by puberty it's down to about 300,000. This constant and dynamic process of decline continues until menopause and is not interrupted by birth control pills, pregnancy, or ovulation.

http://doctorandpatient.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-numbers-every-women-should-know.html

So what if I was born in 1960?
I've probably got healthy eggs for another few years and David finally says he's ready.

The decrease in fertility begins about age 35, and accelerates after age 37. Fertility is almost 0 by the age of 45.

http://www.jonesinstitute.org/ovulation-failure.html

You are here:


Sorry to be bearer of bad news, but lack of ovulation doesn't prolong one's reproductive age, since the limiting factor is hormonal not cytological; if you don't already know this, you aren't a woman in her 40s planning a family.

[Genevieve]

149. uH, taking birth control pills to prevent ovulation from occurring in your twenties

Does not mean your eggs are being saved waiting to be fertilized when you're fifty years old!

[sakura]

126. Born in 1960? Yeah, right.

I find it absolutely hilarious that someone who isn't refuting the implication that she is 48 or 49 (my husband's age!) is calling me a "child."

Let's assume for the moment, that Fredda's convenient claim to be on the verge of reproducing is true. If so, she'd better hope her reproductive freedom isn't taken away. Husband and wife couples over age 40 have at least a 6 in 1000 chance of producing a fetus with Down syndrome (six times higher than younger couples), and increased chromosomal abnormalities in sperm. Also because fecundity decreases sharply by age 48, chances are she'll need to use fertility drugs. Of course, doing so increases the risk of multiple pregnancies, which have a poor chance of survival without selective reduction. And of course, any pregnancy after age 35 is considered high risk to the mother. So, good luck! Hope voting for McCain works out for you.

[rodeodance]

69. nice post Fredda

[Fredda Weinberg]

75. And some reasonable responses. But these are dangerous forces

With vested interests they're not declaring openly.

[Emit]

80. Can you elaborate on your '...dangerous forces with vested interests

that they're not declaring openly' comment?

You have piqued my interest now.

[Fredda Weinberg]

104. Wasn't addressing you, dear. Enjoy whatever your imagination delivers n/t

[Emit]

109. This is a public discourse

ain't it? :shrug:

[Greyskye]

138. That's the claim *she* keeps making...

Only seems to apply when she wants it to however. All of the above provided links have been quite enlightening.

[OilemFirchen]

130. ...but then again, never left or got TS'd.

Which corroborates my long-held suspicion that all BB's have a Gordian bug.

Prolly, if unraveled, we get to see the aliens' real faces, so it may be a good thing.

[Labors of Hercules]

11. I have to say mtnsnake, you've written some shit over the past few months...

that REALLY pissed me off.

but that was then and this is now... cest las vie!

:toast:

[guruoo]

12. Sound advice. -K&R

[jgraz]

17. My first rec of a mtnsnake post.

I need some air...

[OhioBlue]

18. Thank you mntsnake!

You know, I've been thinking about this situation and I compare it to when I am pissed off at a member of my family. I can talk to my brother about what a # my sister is being or how I think her actions are stupid or how she shouldn't do this and should do that.....

But if someone else says a f'in bad word about her (or other family member), it's on.

So, when I've been mad at Hillary or disappointed in things she has done. I've vented to other dems. And... yeah - I've been harsh. But, when a Repug says something bad about her, well.... it's on. I've smacked a few of them down.

Now I see the Republican strategy. They are actively courting Hillary supporters. I watch the show that they put on and I just think "Whatever you bunch of jerks - we had a family fight, but we aren't about anything that you're trying to sell". The Repugs are not "us". We fought, we will heal, we might be pi$$ed off about things and at each other for a while, but the Repugs can screw off.

so thank you again mtnsnake. You probably came around quicker than I would have if I were in your place. But I would have, eventually, especially with the Republicans trying to capitalize on our family feud - the bunch of desperate, jealous jerks.

[crispini]

19. good job

thanks!

[SeattleGirl]

20. Well said, mtnsnake

:patriot:

[fadedrose]

22. Excellent post - K & R

[BigBearJohn]

25. Big Bear John is FOR Obama! (a HIllary supporter) (AGAIN!!!)

BIG BEARS FOR BARACK

[rug]

28. I won't even pick breakfast cereal without touching base in GDP.

[smiley_glad_hands]

29. Thankyou.

It has been rough. I apologize for any heartache you may bear, and hope that tomorrow is a new day.

[Mezzo]

31. self delete. I didn't mean to post twice.

[Mezzo]

32. I'm still undecided to be honest but the worst I'd do is stay home

I've never voted for a repig before, and I don't plan to start. McCain would have to become pro-choice in a hurry.

[eagertolearn]

136. I believe if you give your self a chance to like him you will.

There was a post on here earlier today that listed many things he has accomplished in his career and he really is for changing our corrupt government. If I knew how to attach that I would. The way he just talked to his staff at HQ (on the top choices now) just amazes me what a true person he is to his word. I hope you look at some of this positive info about him and like him.

[akbacchus_BC]

34. Excellent Post, thank you. I am sure you and lots of other supporters

of Senator Clinton are hurting and they need time to grieve and am pretty sure most of them will vote for the Democratic Nominee. Four more years of the Bush administration will not augur well for the US nor the entire planet. I cannot wait to hear Senator Clinton tomorrow. She fought a tough battle and has made history.

K&R

[RoyGBiv]

35. I don't respect that decision ...

For those of you who aren't planning on doing that, I respect your decision ...

I fully appreciate what you're trying to do here and apologize for picking on this single point.

As noted elsewhere, I mostly avoided the primary battles on DU because I thought they were self-destructive and silly. I was on the verge of losing all respect for a number of people I respected a great deal, and in reality I am currently wary of a few people who were formerly on my "must read" list. That said, I'll add that I voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary, she being my second choice behind Edwards. I donated to her campaign. I canvassed for her. I had individual battles in the real world with Obama supporters, and I believe his flaws are vast. I thought Hillary was the better candidate.

But she is not the candidate of my party for President this election cycle. Barack Obama is.

I'm an old-school (old going back to FDR anyway) Democrat. I have never met a Republican I'd prefer to be in office more than a Democrat, even in those cases where I pretty much loathed the Democratic candidate. I don't "loathe" Obama by any means. I think he is a good man, holds good positions (which, btw, I find almost identical to Hillary's positions in most areas), and is an excellent campaigner. He'll do his best in this election, and I am certain he won't back down from the onslaught that is sure to come his way.

I am tired and beaten and glad the primary season is over, but I also know this is what primaries are for. The party battles itself to define its goals and to choose an individual who will carry those goals forward to the general election. We have fought, and those who supported Hillary (and Edwards and Gravel and Kucinich and, and, and ...) have lost. But we, as a party, have won, because we have our candidate. The primary is over.

And any so-called Democrat who does not support him, no matter their reason, is not, in my view, a Democrat. I do not "respect" their decision not to support him.

[1Hippiechick]

67. Hallelujah and Amen! Well said and well done! Who ARE these so-called democrats who would turn...

their back on the PARTY because Hillary didn't get the nod? I have wracked my brain, trying to understand why? This isn’t an American Idol popularity contest. Hillary's and Obama's platforms are very similar. If their platforms had been very different I could make SOME sense out of the Hillary supporters' anger, disillusion, or whatever. Frankly, the most outspoken Hillary supporters that I have seen on video are older women than I (I am 60) who are ranting and raving about how Hillary and they have been disrespected (?!?) I have a question for the angry, ranting female HRC supporters: Do you not see how YOUR behavior has disrespected ALL WOMEN regardless of party affiliation?!? Further, your rants have HURT the women's movement in this country, in my opinion, and have only shown that women cannot or will not stick to the very democratic process of selecting a nominee; rather we are ruled by EMOTION. And, if women are so emotional that we can't stick to the issues or even adhere to the democratic process, what place do we have in leadership or politics at all?!? Rather, if women don't "get their way" we are going to take our toys and go home ala Margaret in Dennis the Menace comic strips? Yes, I support Obama BUT—and this is a big BUT—had Hillary been declared the presumptive nominee, yes, I would have been disappointed BUT I would still have supported the Democratic Party. Based on who voted in the primaries, Obama appeals to a BROADER cross section of people in this country (and to Republicans the term "broader" means black), but look at the demographics! There are a lot of YOUNG people who are well educated and not racist and want to give him a chance to lead our country in a new direction. These young voters are the future of our country! Can you not move over and make room for them? You’re not being asked to move out of the picture, just make room. Obama has shown his grace and dignity in everything he has said. Throughout this campaign he has shown great respect for HRC, but can the Hillary supporters say the same of Hillary, when she was introduced as “the next President of the United States”, and she didn't even congratulate Obama as the presumptive nominee, but rather used her air time to continue campaigning? That’s when I lost respect for HRC – that very act invalidated her campaign, showing that even she couldn’t or wouldn’t stick to the democratic process itself of selecting a nominee and that she had her own agenda, everyone else be damned. Thank GOD that cooler heads in the Democratic Party prevailed.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[RoyGBiv]

119. American Idol ...

Unfortunately, that's almost precisely what it has been.

Given the grace with which Ms. Clinton endorsed Obama today, I'll leave it at that. That's what it "has been." It's not what it is now.

I said the other day that all this has happened before (Ted Kennedy in 1980), and it will all happen again. But we as a party will work through it, if we let ourselves. Ms. Clinton today proved herself to be a better Democrat than Kennedy was in 1980, and so my most dire fears about the remainder of this campaign season have begun to wash away in an instant. Cooler heads are prevailing, and we are quickly allowing ourselves to move forward.

[Swamp Rat]

38. k&r

[BeyondGeography]

45. K&R for unity

[Emit]

48. I do have a question, mtnsnake

Do you and other Hillary supporters really believe this?:

"Some of them, especially the ones who have done nothing but show up on DU to slander Hillary, are doing it because they don't want you to vote Democrat, period, so don't give them the satisfaction. There are lots of sincere Obama supporters on DU but sometimes they get drowned out by the multitudes of ones who are here for a different reason...to get you to vote for the other party."

Do you honestly believe that there's a conspiracy here at DU that entails posters slandering HRC to goad her supporters into voting Republican? So, now, Obama supporters are responsible for this, too -- Obama supporters are to blame for HRC supporters voting Republican? And you feel it is some planned conspiracy? :shrug:

I'm sorry -- I appreciate your attempt here to rally HRC supporters, honestly, I do. But this is just nuts. We're all adults here -- with few exceptions, likely (I think we have some teens here) -- We should take full responsibility for the decisions we make with regard to casting a damned vote. No matter what barbs were exchanged here at DU or elsewhere, the idea that a sizable number of folks dissed Hillary as some psyops plan get votes for the Republican ticket is an unhealthy form of denial and borders on the paranoid, imho.

[Donkey_Punch_Dubya]

53. This does not help and misses the point

Republicans have been taking advantage of the divide since March. Some republicans have registered here and posted unending vicious smears against Hillary. These people are hoping to goad some Hillary supporters to vote McCain because of this. That's what mtnsnake was referring to in the OP.

It doesn't help for you to say that mtnsnake is blaming Obama supporters for something he is not. There are also some people who are relatively new to the political process, and some of their vicious attacks reflect that (like getting outraged that media or posters call Obama the presumptive nominee instead of just the nominee, since in reality that is how it is always termed until the convention, or thinking Obama can win with zero votes from former Hillary supporters). These people are also making it harder to unite, but some of them don't realize it. Mtnsnake wasn't talking about these people in the OP.

[RoyGBiv]

56. Excellent post ...

Well said.

Welcome to DU.

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[pnwmom]

59. I think you totally misread him. That's not how I read him, anyway.

He's saying that there are people all over Democratic blogs who are just there to stir up trouble -- to foment dissension between the supporters of the various Dem candidates. They aren't Obama supporters involved in a conspiracy and most likely they're not Dems at all -- just people pretending to support Obama or Clinton who are really here to split the party.

I just looked at the Hillary blog and it was filled with "women" vowing to vote for McCain. I don't believe it. I know many Hillary supporters and I don't know one who plans to do anything but vote for Obama in the fall.

[noiretextatique]

89. it happens all the time, actually

i've been here since 2000, and yes, people do come here just to stir up shit and conduct disinformation campaigns, especially during elections. i don't think most people aren't swayed by them...at least i hope not.

[OnyxCollie]

118. Also, the OP needs to define "slander" of Hillary.

Is it calling her a liar for her Bosnia story?
Is it calling her a racist for her appeal to "hardworking, white voters"?
Is it calling her a saboteur for saying that she and McSame are capable of being Commander-in-Chief, but Obama only has a speech? Or that Obama isn't a Muslim "as far as I know"?
Is it calling her a grim opportunist for her justification that she should continue to be in the race because Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June?

I applaud the OP's desire to come together to defeat a common enemy and I welcome the OP to the Obama camp (and I was originally a Kucinich supporter).

But 2+2≠5, not matter what you would have me believe.

[cboy4]

58. I plan on voting for this horrid nominee, but not before

throwing up numerous times as I circle in his name.

And if he picks that back-stabber Bill Richardson as VP, I'm going to need someone at the polling place to talk me through it.

Because I can't stand Richardson almost more than Lieberman.

[dorktv]

101. I see where you are coming from.

:hug:

[sellitman]

117. I volunteer.

Having a VP that puts Country before personal friendship is a VP worth having.

[corkhead]

62. Thank you mtnsnake

this Obama supporter salutes you:patriot:

[Warren Stupidity]

65. K&R

Fight each other like cats and dogs in the primary, join together and fight the Republicans with everything we've got in the general election.

[Condem]

66. Deserves a huuuuuuugggggeeee kick

Thanks, mountain

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onenote]

70. thanks

[Darth_Kitten]

71. You rock!

:D

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

72. Well Meet mtnsnake, nicely done. Thanks

[bigtree]

74. K! and R!

:kick:

[Teaser]

78. OK, OK, she was the goddess of peace

If you can be that big an individual, I can at least give you the "goddess of peace"

[femrap]

82. K and R

Her speech is in a few minutes. I admire her very tough skin...unbelievable what she took in the way of ridicule. I guess when someone gets down on me, I'll think of her and her strength and grit.

I am an ABM...Anybody But McSame. That's how I am looking at this. I still have major doubts that we will have an election. I fear martial law before November.

Thanks for the great post, mtnsnake.

[femrap]

84. K and R

Her speech is in a few minutes. I admire her very tough skin...unbelievable what she took in the way of ridicule. I guess when someone gets down on me, I'll think of her and her strength and grit.

I am an ABM...Anybody But McSame. That's how I am looking at this. I still have major doubts that we will have an election. I fear martial law before November.

Thanks for the great post, mtnsnake.

[Sparkly]

91. I also suggest this: WATCH the DEBATES!!

Watch Obama debate McCain, and THEN decide. I think the differences will be so stark, the option of not voting for Obama will be impossible to anybody with a conscience.

[joshcryer]

92. Let me just say I didn't really "support" Hillary in the same way. I supported civility and respect.

I thought that Hillary was completely and utterly disrespected in the liberal blogosphere and forums in general. For seemingly no real reason at all. It was bullshit. Why the hate over someone who isn't that great of a politician? Who was almost assuredly going to lose from the start (despite what anyone says I pay attention to these things and saw the writing on the wall months ago). It's just inconcievable to me.

[Rhiannon12866]

95. K&R, my friend. And thank you.

I totally agree, and very well said...:hi:

[bluedawg12]

96. I supported HRC and will now support Sen. Obama- that's all

there is to it.

We- this nation- cannot afford another minute, much less another 4 years of repig rule.

[VolcanoJen]

99. Amen to that, bluedawg12!

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[dana_b]

113. you got that right.

4 more years of this crap will destroy our kid's futures.

[slinkerwink]

142. thank you!

[Shakespeare]

105. Big old K&R to a Hill supporter I've tangled with repeatedly.

And a big, happy :toast: to unity!!

[Yael]

107. Mtnsnake

:hug:

[dchill]

112. K&R

:)

[lonestarnot]

114. McSame better than bushitler? Now that's a fucking good one!

[sufrommich]

125. k&r .Nice thoughts,mtnsnake,I've enjoyed your posts.nt

[Auntie Bush]

128. Grear advice Snake!

You're a super democratic! A true Democratic!

[Greyskye]

139. I won't REC this

since it's been over 24 hours and I can't.

Which probably saved my life, as I might well have imploded from the ensuing cognitive dissonance which would have come from recommending a mtnsnake post. :)

Good on you! :toast:

[laugle]

140. You are a sweetie, but

it's way to soon to sing 'kumbaya,' if you know what I mean.

My husband of 20 years, a staunch dem for 35yrs, said he's voting for McCain! What a shocker! I told him, we should take our time, we have 3 options, which includes the nuclear one. It will be up to Obama to convince us he is up to the job. We are especially concerned about foreign policy. From now on he must be specific, not implicit! He must show that he can lead and not flip-flop or backdown. I know this is a problem with a rookie, but the middleast is ready to blow. I'm just hoping that Bush does not start a war with Iran or we could see a world war 3.

Hillary along with Bill would have made a great co-presidency, I am truly sad for our country. BTW, I forgot to say, my husband and I are also thinking of dumping the dem party. So you can see, our decision is a complex one, we will take our time.

I listen to talk radio at night and it seems that Obama supporters have now transferred their hate from Hillary to her supporters. Things are looking really bad right now. Talk of a "Million Women March" at the convention and new websites of "Hillary supporters for McCain." Supporters are being asked to talk with the press. I just don't know how it will all shake out.

I know one thing, the Obama fans will be very busy defending him against the smears and I think they will have a new appreciation of what Hillary and her supporters have been through.

Best to you.......hold onto you hat, it's going to be a very bumpy ride!!!

[Emit]

144. Try as a may

I just don't see how any good Dem could vote for McCain over Obama. Most of the Republicans I know won't even vote for McCain.

[laugle]

145. Well than I guess we are bad dems!

But that's really getting old.........

I'm sure many people will be changing their party, does that make you feel better. Losing people who have been voting dem probably before you were born.

Your comment is offensive and serves no useful purpose!

If the shoe were on a different foot, you would be singing a different tune, I suspect!

[Emit]

147. I meant no offense with the 'good Dem' comment

I was referring to your husband, as you described him -- he seems like a good Dem, that's all.


If the shoe were on the other foot, btw, I'd be voting for Hillary in a heartbeat (for the record, my first two choices never had a chance but my third choice by default now does). McCain is not an option. I'd vote for a door mat before I'd vote for McCain.

Also, why would people changing their party make me feel better? Unless they're changing to vote for the Dem, like my Repub SO did recently. Now, that was a good thing. Do you suspect I'm some Repug operative trying to divide the party? I can assure you, I am not.

I apologize if my comments offended you. But, I have to speak my mind in this regard. We have too much at stake here.

[SwampG8r]

146. thanx snake

good to have you with us

[TexasObserver]

150. K&R!