Question For Clinton Supporters Planning To Vote For McCain

[tucsonlib]

First off, I empathize with your disappointment. My preferred candidate was eliminated early on. And I can certainly understand why you might be less than wildly enthusiastic when you enter the voting booth in November. I could even understand if you were to choose to sit out the election altogether. But tell me, how can you possibly justify casting a vote for John McCain? Am I missing something? Would you really prefer a McCain presidency over an Obama presidency? I've been wracking my brain trying to understand your reasoning. Why shouldn't I simply assume that you're all closet racists? Is there another explanation that makes any sense? I'd really like to hear it. Please.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. This will sink because any DUer that will vote for McCain is either a troll or a freeper. nt

[tucsonlib]

3. I Sincerely Hope You're Right.

[Seabiscuit]

54. cat_girl 25 is absolutely right. n/t

I don't know where you've been, but I have never encountered a fellow Edwards supporter on DU that ever expressed any desire or intention to vote for McCain.

[MadBadger]

9. I disagree.

I think there are certain DUers who will definitely vote for McCain, they just wont be showing their face much here anymore. They will permanently hang out at that other site.

[JPettus]

36. I'll disagree with that

There are a number of people that got tired of the hatefulness displayed here by both sides during the primary. My wife is a Hillary supporter, as was I, but neither of us would consider voting Republican. However, there will be some who vote for McCain just like there were some who would vote for Nader - once. To them it's a symbolic vote, and I understand it. I did so in 1980, casting a vote for Anderson because I was disappointed and disillusioned with Carter but couldn't bring myself to support Reagan.

I did it one time, then decided that if I couldn't get the candidate I wanted to support, I still had to vote for the principles I wanted to support and symbolic votes were just a waste of my time and hurt the causes I wanted to win.

People who are serious about their causes will not vote for McCain, IMO. Any view of how the man sold himself out to get the nomination, how he will say anything or do anything to get your vote and how he manages to implode almost every time he opens his mouth will be enough to turn them off.

Expect many of them to stay home on election night. Disappointment cuts deep sometimes. But they won't hang out permanently at "that other site," since they don't agree with the positions of that other site or the people who routinely post there.

Contrary to the hatefulness expressed here during the primary, Clinton supporters are not Republicans. Nor are they conservatives. All positions are relative. If you stand so far to the left that nearly everyone else is to the right of you, perhaps the problem isn't them, it's you.

[blonndee]

52. I agree with you.

There are indeed some who will hang on to their bitterness and anger (and for some, the racism they virulently deny) and vote for McCain hoping that Obama will fail. I really don't think most Hillary supporters, even the ones who are angry now, will do so, but some will. That's why we have GOT to work so hard to continue voter registration, phone banking, and then, most importantly,GOTV!! We can expand this party and make it into a fearful machine. But it's going to take a lot of hard work.

[Muttocracy]

2. There shouldn't be any of them, at least not on DU.

Supreme Court. War. Environment. Health Care. ...

[frogcycle]

4. putting it more succinctly:

what the FUCK is wrong with you?

[Gato Moteado]

5. here's my question for any clinton supporters dumb enough to vote for McCorpse......

will you kiss my ass and why don't you leave?

[saracat]

8. You may not realize it but this is the attitude that is making them feel this way. Seriously.

And if even a quarter of the Clinton folks vote for Mccain it is going to be tough for Obama. Just saying.

[Gato Moteado]

29. i didn't favor obama or clinton......i knew i would support whichever one got the nomination......

....any clinton supporter that's sore because she lost and will now vote for mccain is an idiot.

[cottonseed]

32. They aren't voting for him because they "don't" trust him.

They don't "trust" him, they think he's too green, and they think he stole the election from Hillary. The are not voting McCain because Obama supporters are mean.

[tucsonlib]

38. Re: "They aren't voting for him because they "don't" trust him"

Fine. Don't vote for him. Stay home. Vote for Nader. Whatever. But it still doesn't explain why they would cast their vote for McCain!

[roseBudd]

62. In order to realize their Hillary 2012 dream Obama has to lose, the McCain threats

are because they can't let go. The excuses proffered are disingenuous.

[saracat]

68. Don't you think it is incredibly selfish of you to wish to discard their votes for the downline

because they won't vote for your candidate? What about those that leave the presidential blank? Do you want them to stay home as well? Is the presidential vote that important to you that you would lose the house, senate, and local offices? That is what would be really cutting off your nose to spite your face!

[emilyg]

46. This certainly helps - not.

[Gato Moteado]

70. no.....here's what doesn't help.......

any idiots that would vote for mccain out of spite because their candidate didn't get the nomination. if someone is dumb enough to do that, then they don't belong here. let them get in bed with the fundy whack jobs, the white trash bigots and the corporate criminals...we don't want to see their faces here.

anybody who would even entertain the thought of voting for mccain or any republican after what we've seen the last eight years, is no democrat. bank on it.

[Fla Dem]

60. Oh, that is just so grown-up of you. eom

[saracat]

6. I am NOT planning to vote for Mccain but those that are say it is about "respect".

They feel they and their candidate have been disrespected and it is an issue of sexism and women's rights. they say they are sending a "message to the Democratic party that it can no longer count on their votes".I am not saying I agree with this, but I do understand it. They also say they will not be threatened with threats of Roe and that the GOP is unlikely to overturn Roe as it is too important as a wedge issue. They say they cannot compromise their self respect by voting for a candidate they do not respect. Those are some of the reasons.They say this is no longer about Clinton but it is about themselves.There also was a world conference of women on NPR that dealt with this and the shame that women all over the world felt about the way they considered Clinton had been treated. I am not going to debate this. I am just trying to answer the question you posed. Not all these positions are my own. I am simply being the messenger. I am NOT going to vote for McCain.

[MadBadger]

10. You can argue sexism from the media, but I dont understand where Obama was sexist

Just like I dont see the Clintons ever being racist btw.

[saracat]

13. They say it is a bigger issue than Clinton or Obama. It is a "protest vote".

Thousands of women have already sent in their voter registration change forms to the DNC as part of the protest. Others what it known that they are Democrats for McCain as they think it gets more attention.They say their party betrayed them. This "movement" is real and I feel a response is necessary to get the voters back.Just my opinion.

[MadBadger]

19. And I'm confident that Obama will do everything necessary to get them back.

Short of putting her on the ticket of course.

[saracat]

69. How?

[saracat]

71. Again, how? No answer?

[tucsonlib]

11. If It's About "Respect"....

then why not just sit out the election?

[saracat]

16. Some don't feel it sends "enough" of a message. They want the Party to know it was

long time Democrats who did this and they want the Democratic Party to shoulder the blame for what they feel they did. Please don't flame in response. I am only the messanger.

[Think82]

37. What did they do? where was the sexism? Who are they blaming? She lost. She ran a terrible campaign

Bosnia Sniper Fire, not planning after super tuesday, making intellectually dishonest arguments, not spending her money well, praising mccain over obama, using fear tactics... these are why she lost. Sexism has nothing to do with it.

[Fla Dem]

65. She didn't lose the primary because of sexism, although I am

sure there were plenty of people, both men and women who would not vote for her because she was a woman, just as there were voters who would not vote for a black man. Both positions are despicable. What many Hillary supporters are upset about are the sexist, derogatory, demeaning comments made by Obama supporters and the media. Watch this video http://www.womensmediacenter.com/sexism_sells.html (credited to cap)
and you tell me if Obama was even remotely slurred by the media (tv, radio & net) the way Hillary was. Or for that matter, here on DU the bastion of progressiveness and liberalism where she were called a f****** whore, slut, a conniving bit*h, and so much more. If that type of language is acceptable toward Hillary Clinton, or for that matter any woman, then sexism is alive and well.

[knight_of_the_star]

14. Hit the nail on the head

Same reason I didn't pick sides after Edwards suspended his campaign in February, I found the partisans and disrespect on both sides of the line reprehensible to put it mildly.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. I agree with that

Both sides were out of control. As a Kucinich voter, it was difficult for me to pick one of the last two to vote for, in that niether candidate represented my postitions. They both voted for the Patriot Act for example. And the funding of what they call 'the war'.
Those Clinton supporters who say they will vote for McCain, well I take them with a big grain of salt, the same grain I used for Obama supporters who spent months saying they would not vote for her if she was the nominee. It was constant. Same thing. Both sides, same thing. The trashing of RFK Jr by some on Obama's side left a really bad impression on me. Still not over that.
I read hundreds of postings from Obama supporters that said they 'could never vote for someone who voted for the IWR'...if they being honest, that means they did not vote for John Kerry, and either voted for Bush, stayed home, or voted Nader. How many voted for Bush? Or maybe, just maybe, there was political hyperbole at play? Perhaps they actually could vote for a IWR voting Senator, prehaps they voted for two, Kerry/Edwards im 2004? If they did not, they are the same as the current batch of Republi-shouters. Either they lie, and they voted for Kerry, or they are truthful, and they helped install Bush.
Or perhaps they are just spouting off? Venting? I sure hope so. Just as I hope the Obama side would not have stompped away in a huff if he had lost. The Obama side promised to not vote for the nominee, to raise hell in Denver and ever other thing. If he had lost, I just have to wonder what would be the situation. I say exactly the same as now.

[OzarkDem]

15. Towanda

Ditto, I'm not voting for McCain, but here's an amusing clip from Fried Green Tomatoes that might help explain it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Ai_3_XfPA&NR=1

[NanceGreggs]

25. How has the Party disrespected Hillary?

That's the part I just don't get. How is it an issue of sexism and women's rights? I keep asking the question on threads like this, and I've never gotten a concrete answer.

[DURHAM D]

49. Guess you have managed not to follow the shenanigans of the DNC

for the past 10 months or your head is willfully in the sand?

Oh wait - you are just kidding aren't you?

[NanceGreggs]

53. Sorry, but ...

... the "Duh, if you don't already know, I'm not going to tell you" answer lost its mystique by the time I hit the third grade.

If you have concrete examples of how the Party disrespected Hillary, I'm all ears.

[NanceGreggs]

55. Still waiting ...

It would seem that if the Party had "disrespected" Hillary so blatantly, at least a few examples would be easy to cite.

:shrug:

[jbm]

35. thank you for explaining it so clearly..

I am a Clinton supporter, and you did an excellent job of articulating why I cannot bring myself to support Obama. I have nothing against Obama, but I can't just ignore the way Clinton was treated and pretend it's no big deal. At this point, I'm thinking my best plan of action is to just avoid all things political for awhile. I actually was just browsing through DU one last time for old times sake when I stumbled across your post. I had figured I'd leave disgusted, but instead I'm leaving on a bit of a high note. Thanks for that, and good luck with whatever outcome you're hoping for.

[NanceGreggs]

45. Well, since saracat isn't responding to my query ...

... I'll ask you: How has the Party disrespected Hillary?

[saracat]

64. I wasn't here. I was out working on a campaign. The Party disrespected Hillary

By never standing up for her when the media allowed outrageous sexist remeks to be made . the party disrespected her by the way they hadled the whole Florida MI debacle.
I feel the Party showed a lot of disrespect for women in general.You may disagree and that is your perogative.Many remarks are still being made about the fact that no one needs to pander to "old bitter women" and "they don't need their vote" Well it seems that maybe they won't be getting the vote of those women and the point I am making is that it may hurt in the GE.

I know some Hillary super delegates who say they have never felt so disrespected by their own party and who will be leaving and taking their checkbooks with them.

One of the major points was the party never spoke out against the media when some of the more outrageous comments were made.

[NanceGreggs]

72. Thanks for responding ...

... and stating your position.

The problem I have is this: No one from the Party stood up for Obama when the MSM was on the Wright thing 24/7. No one from the Party stood up for Edwards when he was called an empty-headed "Breck Girl", who was a hypocrite for speaking about poverty in view of his own wealth.

Part of the process is that candidates are "on their own" in having to defend themselves and define themselves for the voters. All candidates have to prove their mettle as individuals.

I cannot imagine anything more demeaning for Hillary than Party members jumping to her defence, while they hadn't done so for the other candidates. It would have made her look weak - the last thing she wants to be seen as.

The FL and MI solution was about striking some sort of fair resolution for those who had voted, as well as those who had not because they had been told their votes would not be counted. In the end, it wasn't about Hillary and it wasn't about Obama - it was about reaching an equitable conclusion for everyone.

Although "remarks are still being made" about bitter old women, and not needing their votes - who is making those remarks? Has that attitude ever been profferred as the official stance of the Party? No doubt there have been more than a few unpleasant "remarks" about both candidates behind the scenes.

As for the SDs (or any other women) who "are taking their checkbooks and leaving", I can't imagine that they are terribly concerned about women's rights, or equal opportunities for women, etc. The true feminist works from within the system to push for progressive change for her fellow women. And that holds true not only with a political party, but within education, business, industry - you name it.

To say, "Well, I'm being disrespected, so I'm packing up and leaving" is as selfish as it gets. If the women who came before us had taken that attitude, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation; not only would a woman not have been a candidate, we still wouldn't have the vote.

What I find remarkable is that the candidate herself has stuck it out for decades, ultimately coming to within a hair's breadth of the presidency, while her supporters talk about quitting and walking out the door.

As I've said many times over the past few months, if Hillary Clinton was as thin-skinned and easily scared-off as some of her supporters have shown themselves to be, she never would have made it to where she is today.

[earthlover]

41. Roe v Wade will be history if McCain is elected

Wishing it were not so, will not make it not so.

The question I see here is do this handful of Hillary's supporters actually believe in what Hillary fought for (choice was among them) or was it just a cult-like following of a herd leader? If they actually believe in what Hillary fought for, they will follow Hillary's lead in endorsing Obama and fighting against McCain.

McCain's policies on the environment, the economy, choice, war and peace and the religious right suck.... (McCain visited Liberty University a while ago....did Obama or Hillary? I think it safe to say he was courting the Falwell tribe....)

Denial is insidious. Some may not want to face the possibility that a McCain election can have such bad consequenses. Just like in 2000 many did not want to beleive that George Bush The Dumber would be so bad.

I think the majority of Hillary backers will vote Democratic this year, showing that they have something in common with Hillary after all.

There will be some sour grapes babies who will prefer to pout and sit in a corner and whine and cry and fuss that the world is not the way they wanted it to be. And there are some people who voted for Hillary who were not Democrats in the first place.

I don't think many of Hillary's supporters are going to sit out the election and not fight to prevent George Bush The Dumber's third term

[Fla Dem]

61. OK, I was behind Hill......but no way do I see a vote for McBush

as sending a signal about respect. First of all there is no way to even measure the "respect" vote McBush get from Hillary supporters. Secondly, after she throws her wholehearted support behind Obama today, how is defying her call to get behind Obama showing any respect for Hillary.

If the issue is the way she and her supporters were dissed on the primary media coverage, there are better ways to voice your contempt to those that used sexism in their criticism of Hillary. I was a big Olbermann fan, but he completely lost me, not so much for his opposition to Hillary, but his vitriolic, sexist and demeaning commentary.

For all the commentators and news readers, I am so tired of the comments regarding her cleavage, her voice, her pant suits, her laugh, her tears, her butt. And that she is a conniving bit*h, a whore, a slut and so much more. Issues and male derogatory terms that are never used for male candidates.

The only way a message can be sent is to organize a write in protest to the various media outlets TV, Radio, and Net; yes the Dem web sites were just as offensive....moveon, Huffington, Slate, Du and a host of others. Sexism is not dead; it is alive and well living in America.

I am not an Obama supporter, but I would cast 10 votes for him to keep McBush and the Repugs out of the WH.

Heres a good place to start speaking out on the media sexism:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6310210

[jojo54]

7. Here's hoping that you don't get any sincere answers.

I'm not doubting that are still freeps here though. At least through the GE.

[AllentownJake]

12. Can we stop this

All the hardcore good Hillary supporters who are true dems have already announced their support for the nominee. There are one or two assholes left but they will either be leaving Wednesday or getting the granite cookie.

[saracat]

17. Again, the pharasing of "true dems" is a little condecending and is

not helpful at this time.There are many "true dems" who have supported the Party for a lifetime who are really hurt right now and feeling betrayed.Calling them names won't get anyone elected.

[AllentownJake]

18. Funny

Even when someone is supporting the please knock it off you have to parse their words.

Your looking for fights right now.

[emilyg]

47. Who are you to define true dems?

[JTFrog]

57. It's pretty fucking obvious that a true dem would vote for the nominee and not McCain.

Would you really argue that point?

[saracat]

66. There is much more to being a Democrat than a vote for an individual candidate.

Yes, I would argue that point. In my opinion the presidency is only one vote. If one compares that against a lifetime of Democratic effort it is a pretty negligible fact especially if you consider it to be one election out of a lifetime.

[Lex]

20. The *obsession* with Hillary and her supporters.

What's that about?

[AllentownJake]

23. The media

has us all worked into a rabid lather because they are interviewing the Harriet Christian's of the world for a story and not the vast majority of her supporters who are dissapointed but want a Democrat in the White House.

[Lex]

27. OK, thanks. It's starting sound like an ex who can't let go of the relationship.

Sheesh. I want to scream, Stop thinking about Hillary! Start thinking about McCain. Focus up people!

[AllentownJake]

28. They turn on the TV

or listen to the radio or go to one of the radical web sites and hear angry Hillary supporters than get riled up. I was doing it myself till I saw 90% of the Hillary supporters on here say they would support Obama. People who I got into heated arguments with the past 3 months and than realized things are going to be ok.

[qijackie]

21. Saracat is giving you some honest answers. Continual negative responses

won't help resolve the problems. I even have several men in my family that are very angry and talking about McCain - I could tell when they began being upset if I called him slimy or something. They were proud of themselves for liking Hillary Clinton and voting for her. They felt that they no longer had to be painted with a "sexist" label. Now the ground sort of got cut out from under them as well as from the female Clinton supporters such as myself. It makes for very rocky feelings.

[AllentownJake]

22. I hope they calm down

Seeing that Obama and Clinton only real disagreement is which one of them should be President and McCain disagrees with Clinton and Obama on everything.

[qijackie]

24. I don't think the political "issues" are the issue. nt

[AllentownJake]

26. That's all that matters at the end of the day

In a General Election. In a primary you can debate personality in a General Election its simply a matter of who is going to work to implement the ideas you like.

I don't like any of John McCain's ideas.

[tucsonlib]

31. Doesn't Anyone Vote The Issues Anymore?

Clinton was my least favorite nominee. Not because of her gender, but because of her positions and voting record. I don't care if my President is male, female, black, white or purple. If he/she stands for, and will fight for, progressive causes then that's who will get my vote. Now, because of some perceived "disrespect" there are those who would actually cast their votes for the sole purpose of "sending a message"?? I ask you, who is the real "sexist" here?

[BlackVelvet04]

30. Why would anybody answer a question so loaded with insults? n/t

[tucsonlib]

33. Re: "Why would anybody answer a question so loaded with insults?"

Like, for example?......

[against all enemies]

59. To explain their position?

[ObamaKerryDem]

34. Totally agree.

I'm as baffled (and digusted) by this as you evidently are, fingrpik. I mean, it would be one thing if they were all Independents or fencesitters from the very begginning or something. But how could they spend 16 months, listening to all of Hillary's speeches and condemnations (when she wasn't praising McCain in order to throw off on Obama, of course, but that's a whole different issue..) of the GOP/Bush/McCain game plan...only to turn around and vote for him?? As I've said before, I suppose all these people no longer give a damn about issues like Universal Healthcare, a woman's right to choose, Iraq, etc, etc...the list goes on. Don't get me wrong, if the situation were reversed, after everything that's gone down in the campaign, I'd likely have needed a minute to warm back up to Hillary, but at the end of the day, I would've "come home", if not for her, than for the sake of the country, that absolutely CANNOT afford 4 more fuckin' years of the same. And when I read about some of them wanting to throw this election to McCain just so Hillary could run again in 2012...well, I'm sorry, but that pisses me off even more. SO you're willing to sentence this country to four more years of Bushish rule (which will constitute further beatings on the economy, more of the same in regards to Healthcare, education, etc, etc....and the potential for many more to die as a result of this bullshit war), just so "their girl" can run again? I'm sorry, but that's fucking insane...not to mention pretty damn selfish :grr: And this is not an attack on Hillary either. She's giving a speech tommorrow and will evidently come on board and if she comes through with this, I applaud her. And to be clear, most of the Hillary supporters I know, online and off, have come and are coming around. But this little group, however (hopefully) relatively small, is, I'm sorry, acting like a great big group of petulant crybabies, putting personalities over the issues they supposedly care about. :eyes:

Hypocritical to the max.

[NYC_SKP]

39. Many say "McCain 2008--Clinton 2012"

At her official site, not that they're representative of more than a few hundred.

But it is shameless that her campaign has a forum that's being used by these folks to promote pro-McCain and anti-Obama websites and nothing is being done about it.

Unity my ass.

[ObamaKerryDem]

40. Probably from Hillaryclintonforum.net, lol..

And I agree that something should be done about it. Surely there's still a moderation team on that site? Because it's awkward at best that right after you click on there to read Hillary's latest message, you see that garbage. :/ If Hillary's really going to get behind Barack, someone from her team should step in and make that somehow more clear to these people..because they apparenly either haven't gotten the message or are blind to it.. :eyes:

[NYC_SKP]

43. from blog.hillaryclinton.com, her official site

and yes, it needs to stop.

[StevieM]

44. Maybe they are a little busy right now and not focused on their web blog? But thanks for giving us

yet another made-up scandal.

I will concede this...McCain will most likely only look to serve one term. But the Supreme Court is too important to give up. So I'll just have to hope that the party unites behind which ever Democrat defeats Obama in the 2012 Primaries. I'll be interested to see if you support them or turn the country over to President Romney.

Steve

[Kool Kitty]

51. I wonder if those that say "McCain 2008-Hillary 2012"

are willing to give up a family member (or indeed go themselves) to fight in one of McCain's new wars.

[StevieM]

42. I was originally planning to vote for McCain, but have modified my position

I will vote for Obama in the 2008 GE. I will vote against him in the 2012 Democratic Primaries.

That, of course, is also unacceptable to many Obamites--either I join the revolution and repudiate my shameful HRC past or I am the enemy.

There's a winning electoral strategy for you.

Steve

[MadBadger]

48. I'm fine with your strategy

Obama will be the President running for his second term. Vote for whoever you want.

[Swamp Rat]

50. I see you.

[roseBudd]

63. "I will vote against him in the 2012 Democratic Primaries." and if there is no challenger?

Or if there is one but it is a white male or just not Hillary will you still try to oust a Democratic president?

[VotesForWomen]

56. game over with the racist charge. keep that up; it will work great for O in the GE. nt

[Zavulon]

67. Such people are merely as selfish as Hillary herself is. However, LET'S DROP THE RACE THING.

The last thing we need is thought along the lines of your "Why shouldn't I simply assume that you're all closet racists?" I know plenty of wingnuts who won't vote for Obama but would be quite glad to vote for Alan Keyes or J.C. Watts.

I really, REALLY hope we're not going to throw the race card around every time someone criticizes Obama or says he / she won't vote for Obama. It'll make it a lot easier for Repugs to discredit legitimate claims of racism if the 'R' word is used every day.

By the way, I was quite an ardent supporter of Obama during the primaries and remain one, but if he starts throwing around the race card he does stand a chance of convincing me to stay home. I'm obviously not prepared for four years of McStain, but 4-8 years of race card playing isn't something I'm willing to stomach, either.

The ease with which you went to race is exactly why society turns a deaf ear to legitimate claims of racism - the card is simply played too often to take every claim seriously, and lots of people are just tired of hearing it. Yours truly included.

Let's just beat a hopeless asshole on November without sorting to the sort of racial whining that so many of us are tired of. We DO NOT NEED TO RESORT TO THE RACE CARD TO WIN.

[Raineyb]

73. Yeah wouldn't want to have an honest discussion about race around here would we?

God forbid!

:sarcasm:

I don't think it's racial whining to point out the fact that we have serious issues dealing with race in this country. Having a black presidential nominee does not change that.

And frankly, what other explanation would you have that isn't completely lame as to why someone who claims to be a progressive would vote for McSame who stands for the opposite of what a progressive stands for. It's not like they're threatening to vote for Cynthia McKinney, who is running on the Green Party ticket and we know she's a progressive. There's no doubt she's a woman that would make more sense as a "protest vote".

But since you consider it whining to discuss such things I guess there won't be an answer to that question. Enjoy the sand if you must but some of us still have to live with this country's racial legacy and don't have the privilege of ignoring it.

Regards