It's not Narcissism.

[The Doctor.]

Look, I know how people can see Clinton being graceless and divisive as a form of self-absorbed narcissism, but it's not.

She's meticulously planned for and worked very hard to become President. It's certainly been an ambition of hers for many years... I suspect from as far back as grade school. When one has mapped a lifetime around such an ambition, it quite literally becomes a part of their identity.

While seeing oneself as fulfilling the goal of becoming President is ambitious, it is not necessarily 'narcissistic'. What we are seeing now is more readily recognized as a reaction to watching the great ambition of her life collapsing and taking a piece of her internal identity with it. It's a blow to the ego of epic proportions, especially after the high level of certainty so many of us, myself included, had that she would become POTUS. Now there is a wound, the pain from which obscures her judgement and allows her the inhibition to attempt to achieve some consolation by any means. She likely doesn't see that she's harming the party, but she frankly feels cheated.

What she's doing is wrong, but it's not because of some 'disorder', it's because she's human.

Just my .02

[EFerrari]

1. Narcissists are often very high achievers with a lot of discipline

in their chosen field. And, they also experience disappointment. :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

28. Exactly.. the two things are not mutually exclusive

Narcissism and sociopathic personality disorder often go hand in hand, and some of these people are HIGHLY successful BECAUSE they can and DO do anything to get their way, and they are willing to step on anyone to get what they want.. and yes they DO feel pain when THEY lose out..but never for the people they step on along the way.

[msallied]

34. Damn straight. God I love smart people.

;)

[EFerrari]

46. Did you catch the part where Hillary said , essentially, that's she's

staying in so her supporters will not be "invisible"?

I posted this to another thread around here somewhere, but what better illustration of narcissism can there be than someone who believes other people can't or don't exist without her? It's basically an object permanence problem. :shrug:

[bvar22]

101. It is "Messianic".

The Savior of her "invisible" people!

[Warren DeMontague]

106. I'm sorry, I'm probably dating myself, here...

but the whole thing about the supporters being invisible just cracks me right up:

[EFerrari]

111. The link is broken. What can't I see?

:)

[Warren DeMontague]

112. Burt from "Soap". nt

[The Doctor.]

50. By your criteria, nearly all politicians exhibit NPD

As I said elsewhere;

"But Narcissistic Personality Disorder doesn't generally co-evolve with an advanced work ethic. Narcissists tend to crash and burn unless heavily enabled. Bush the Lesser is a perfect example of a developed NPD in response to the his insecurities from learning disorders, failures, and general intellectual inadequacy.

Generally, those with great ambition who develop a good work ethic run into obstacles that prevent them from developing such a condition. At this point, we may be talking about someone with a mild form of megalomania, but not narcissism. NPD is a bit abstract, but there are hallmarks of it that Clinton doesn't have."

[SoCalDem]

57. A shrink friend of ours told us once that people with this type of "disorder"

often ARE politicians..or salespeople..or lawyers..... They can and DO do well in positions that offer ambiguous scenarios, and often involve a winner and a loser...

they are often very verbal people..good communicators, appear friendly and can be very persuasive and charming..

He also said that about 90% of prison inmates have thse disorders..but of course not all people with thes disorders actually end up in prison.. most skirt right up to the edge of legality, but do not get caught or if they do, they end up with probation, and are more careful from then on..

[EFerrari]

61. Smarter people compensate better, too. They can go right under

the radar.

[Jackpine Radical]

81. a) I agree about NPD and the professions

b) NPD and Antisocial PD are classified in the same PD cluster in the DSM, and share a number of common traits revolving around self-centeredness.

[EFerrari]

59. No, not all politicians exhibit NPD. Speaking of enabling,

which is a clumsy word for having life facilitated for you by others to compensate, maybe four people on the planet knew how disabled my husband actually was because we had the act down. And he himself compensated for his personality disorder so well, he wasn't even diagnosed until he was in his forties. :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

86. My middle son was diagnosed with it at 15 (even though the shrink said he was a bit young)

We LIVED with the horrors of it.. This was a kid whose IQ tested out at 168..and yet never successfully completed any school year past 8th grade..(He went to probation school and school at juvenile hall).. He is a speed reader and has a vocabulary that's far beyond most college graduates.

Luckily for him (and our pocketbooks) he DID have an epiphany and now has a great job, and a fantastic fiancee, and has stayed out of trouble..but sometimes we still get glimpses of the old Mike...he's devilishly charming, and very handsome, so people often defer to him..

He would blatantly steal money from us, and lie when we caught him :shrug:.. he saw nothing particualrly wrong with us having to pay $87 a DAY for 8 MONTHS while he was incarcerated at a juvenile facility..and he would readliy admit to his foul ups, but it was never HIS fault..

To show you have blatant he was.. His "friend" stole a car, and our son left his brother's brand new leather jacket in the car when the police were chasing them onfoot after they bailed from the car.. he had the GUTS to call the guy whose car they stole, to aske for the jacket back..:rofl:.. The kicker? the guy brought the jacket to court andf gave it to him ..

[EFerrari]

95. I knew we had something in common.

LOL

:hug:

[LanternWaste]

54. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

So rather than pull a Frist and make a diagnosis of one's physical condition based on video, we're going to make a diagnosis of one's mental/emotional condition based on video.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

[EFerrari]

66. Don't call us Frist until we show up on the Senate floor and call for a vote.

lol

:)

[LanternWaste]

72. Hiya Pat. Your one of may fav's on DU!

Hiya Pat. Your one of may fav's on DU! You've steered me towards some valuable reading material re: Chavez (plus a brazillion or so articles).

I dunno if I've ever told you that or not-- but this seems like as good a time as any!!!


:hi:

[EFerrari]

76. Seriously, if you see me calling for a vote, please dial 911!

lol

:hi:

[JNelson6563]

84. Can't admit fault and leave a wake of chaos/destruction

Just throwin' that out there.

[movonne]

I think you have got this right...

[Diane R]

2. I think it is narcissism. She doesn't display any capacity for humiliation or awareness of her acti

[dchill]

3. Oh, I think it's narcissism.

I really do. How else do you get "She likely doesn't see that she's harming the party, but she frankly feels cheated." ?

She didn't win the popular vote, either.

[Windy]

4. Her behavior is disrespectful and classless. She has no place on the ticket because of her actions

and I am going to write to Wasserman-Shultz to tellher that her petition to put HRC on the ticket is out of line and again disrepectful as it is Obama's EARNED choice!

[kenny blankenship]

5. Wow. Insightful. So where does the Democratic Party and people like us fit in this grand design?

Her dream seems to fill the entire world and leave no room for ours. One person vs. a political party in a nation of 300 million. Maybe it's a case of overwhelming self-regard after all?

[The Doctor.]

It's an admittedly fine line...

But Narcissistic Personality Disorder doesn't generally co-evolve with an advanced work ethic. Narcissists tend to crash and burn unless heavily enabled. Bush the Lesser is a perfect example of a developed NPD in response to the his insecurities from learning disorders, failures, and general intellectual inadequacy.

Generally, those with great ambition who develop a good work ethic run into obstacles that prevent them from developing such a condition. At this point, we may be talking about someone with a mild form of megalomania, but not narcissism. NPD is a bit abstract, but there are hallmarks of it that Clinton doesn't have.

[WeDidIt]

6. What you've described is the very definition of narcissism

Sorry, but it had to be said.

She needs an intervention.

[MrCoffee]

7. Agreed, and very well-said.

[LisaM]

8. It's not like a sporting even where one side gets a trophy, you high five at the end

and it's over till next year. There is no "next" for her. We are a "Survivor" and "American Idol" culture, which is really too bad. We are worthy of better. It's not like we called and voted on our cell phones. It's real life, not a game show, and why people are so anxious to dance on her grave, when she won almost half of the support in the primaries, is beyond me.

[Oddman]

16. That's not the point of the post

The point is the way she has handled herself during the period she knew she was going to lose. There is no doubt she is a brilliant woman but her behavior has been nothing but narcissistic and self absorbed. The way she reveled in the crowd shouting "Denver Denver Denver!" was frightening. She seemed lost in a daze of her own little world as if she were some kind of magical messiah.

At one time I thought she would be an asset to the ticket as VP - but not any longer.

[LisaM]

20. Well I guess I just disagree

I think when she has the number of people who voted for her that she does that she is also thinking of them. She's certainly no more narcissistic than any other candidate.

[Oddman]

23. The majority of candidates read the writing

on the wall and concede defeat and start the healing process. Last night she was still talking about her victories, that she would be the stronger candidate that she won the popular vote and on and on, selfishly trying to steal the spotlight from the presumptive democratic nominee. She is like a child being dragged from the election kicking and screaming.

I used to have an enormous amount of respect and admiration for Hillary, but that has been dramatically eroded.

[scheming daemons]

9. "she's human".... bullshit... I want a DNA test.

[DJ13]

10. If she's supposed to be a strong person why do people make excuses for her?

Her actions, and the "aw, she just needs time" responses to excuse those actions, arent consistent with a person who represents the strong independent minded women in this country who represent her base.

[Mimosa]

47. Ding, ding, ding! DJ13

Really, as a woman she embarrasses me. She really can't play the game in a sportsmanlike way.

[The Doctor.]

52. I didn't say she wasn't behaving poorly. I just think it's really silly

for people to be playing armchair psychologists when they have no idea what kind of considerations go into making such determinations.

You're all pitching well out of your league.

[polichick]

11. For her not to even get that last night was about Barack...

...proves that she has a personality disorder ~ actually she does fit the profile of a classic narcissist.

And I'm tired of all the excuses people keep making on her behalf.

[The Doctor.]

44. If 'Rude'='Narcissist', then we all need meds.

And everyone who runs for president 'fits the profile' in some way or another.

The clinical criteria are for the average person. Those in extraordinary positions or circumstances need a more pertinent and decisive set of criteria to reach that kind of determination.

It's kind of sad watching people play armchair psychologists without understanding the sort of considerations that go into actual diagnosis of disorders.

If anyone fits the criteria, it's Bush the Lesser, not Hillary Clinton.

[rebel with a cause]

55. Bush the lesser and Hillary have some things in common

that put them both in the catagory for the diagnosis. Not a psychologist but have a degrees in Social Work and Sociology, with classes in psychology. I also have experience working with people with this disorder and living with one for many years. They can be hard working, but they always expect to get high recognition for that work. the main thing about them s that the world revolves around them. When I had a life threatening operation, my then husband got mad at me because of how it affected his life. He had to take care of the kids, he had to wait in the waiting room, he had to make more trips to the hospital, and he had to worry if I would live or not. The last words I heard as I went under was him saying "Do you know how unfair this is to me!"

[polichick]

73. It's way beyond rude - she shows a lack of empathy...

...lack of decency, disrespect for rules ~ as well as extreme self-involvement and delusional thinking.

I come from a family of doctors, including a psychiatrist ~ it's not hard to see that HRC has a serious problem.

[BlooInBloo]

12. People who *lose* and yet feel "cheated" fucking suck.

[hfojvt]

25. depends on the loss

One Packers-Bears game I watched involved a pass that was called a catch and resulted in a Packers' first down. The Bears challenged it and it was over-ruled. Which may have been the proper call. But in the original play, I was yelling "face mask! face mask!" and in the replay you could clearly see a 15 yard face mask penalty. That would have resulted in a first down. Why wasn't that called in the replay? (Later I heard an explanation that you cannot call penalties in a replay, but at the time the announcers were ignoring the face mask infraction.)

Instead the Packers punted, the Bears got good field position, and drove for the winning score. Bottom lines - the Packers got screwed, the Bears got away with a cheap shot. Which is why, no matter how many superbowls they go to - the Bears still suck! :P

Hillary fans probably feel the same way, reviewing every bad call and every cheap shot in the highly contested game.

[SoCalDem]

29. To check to cheap shots regarding the clinton campaign, all they need is a mirror & youtube

The errors were self-inflicted :)

[babylonsister]

13. She's dealing near-fatal blows to herself imo. Hard to believe she

can't feel them.

[Triana]

14. THE mark of a narcissist is this:

The INABILITY to experience EMPATHY. EMPATHY is described as "putting yourself in someone else's shoes" and being able to understand how someone ELSE might feel in relation to YOUR actions (or INactions).

Hillary is CLEARLY lacking that. You ADMITTED IT yourself right HERE:

"She likely doesn't see that she's harming the party, but she frankly feels cheated."

It's all about HER and how SHE feels. It has not entered her MIND what she is DOING to everyone else, or how her albatross-like hanging on and refusal to concede (HER actions/inaction) is doing to - or how it makes ANYONE ELSE feel. It's ALL ABOUT HILLARY'S feelings.

These people are pathologically BACKWARDS. LIFE to them is all about THEIR feelings and EVERYONE ELSE'S actions (it's always someone ELSE'S fault) - it's NEVER about THEIR actions and anyone ELSE'S FEELINGS.

Hillary is - by these measures, a narcissist. NO she can't SEE what she's doing. THAT is the pathology right there.

[The Doctor.]

36. No, that's egocentrism.

I've been going on memory, but what the hell. (here's a good list);

(Bold mine)

Someone who suffers from Narcissistic Personality disorder (NPD) has at least 5 of the following characteristics:

-has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) -Possible, but that's too subjective a call for people who are upset with her... such as yourself.

-is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love -The narcissist fantasizes about and expects to be handed those things... she actually worked for it. That takes it out of the realm of fantasy

-believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) This is possible, but the narcissist will show open disdain for 'ordinary folk'. Her actions prove that she has no such aversion.

-requires excessive admiration - assuming that her willingness to accept praise is a need for 'execssive admiration' would give every politician NPD

-has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations - it was not unreasonable for her to expect to win... in fact many people thought she would.

-is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends This also goes with the territory of politics, it's hard to quantify it in such a context without glaring examples

-lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others Possible, but this is a trait shared by many conditions and disorders

-is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - Again, no outstanding examples

-shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes -Yeah... we've seen that, but again, that could be indicative of all sorts of things.

-Here are some more signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder to look out for:

Jealousy and possessiveness - notsomuch

Excessive need to feel special, adored, loved, appreciated, or admired - nothing notably excessive

Rage attacks when you do not sufficiently meet his/her needs - no outstanding instances that I know of

Controlling behaviors (trying to control how you spend your time, who you talk to, how you dress, etc.) -We'd have to ask Chelsea and Bill, but no one has described this tendency in her

Inflated self-esteem, or grandiosity (bragging, "fishing" for compliments) -possibly, but haven't seen solid examples.

Dramatic, insecure behaviors -No solid examples

Expecting you to take responsibility for making him/her feel better about him/herself -again, we don't know

Blaming you for behaviors or feelings (i.e., "YOU made me do this," or "YOU made me feel this way.") -could indicate multiple conditions/disorders, no solid examples

Not taking responsibility for angry behavior and justifying angry outbursts -no solid examples

An attitude that demonstrates "the world revolves around me" and "you need to cater to my ideas, opinions, thoughts, and feelings." -the same could be said of Obama by his detractors

An unwillingness to reflect on his/her own behaviors
 -That I could agree with

http://www.narcissism101.com/

You see, the problem here is that most of the indications you think apply to her from your subjective viewpoint could just as easily apply to anyone, Obama included.

She just doesn't objectively meet enough of the criteria to conclude she has NPD.


{oe}fix bold.

[Triana]

58. split those hairs all you want. Lack of empathy is the defining one...

...and she HAS that.

[Lucky 13]

15. "She's only human" and "it's narcissism" are mere excuses...

This is not a one time error.

She is continuing this debacle and horrific display of poor judgment. She is continuing to be divisive. She is continuing to use her supporters as bargaining chips in her hostage crisis.

Some people say she's just being human. Some people say she has some sort of mental disorder. I say all of that is just trying to excuse the fact that she is apparently completely morally bankrupt.

[Triana]

18. Well, narcissists ARE human and their lack of empathy manifests as poor judgement...

...among other things.

[rebel with a cause]

62. I agree and said about the same thing before

reading all the way down the thread. I owe you a coke. ;)

[msallied]

19. She doesn't have a mental disorder. She has a personality disorder.

And it's not an excuse. It merely explains her moral depravity. Personality disorders are not like a handicap that are supposed to cause sympathy. They are caused by learned behaviors that simply become a part of who you are from an early age. It is why she is the way she is.

[msallied]

17. Dear, your entire explanation of her behavior DEFINES narcissism.

Oh, and she's also a sociopath. Let's not forget that. Look, she can be a narcissist without having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Personally, I think she has Antisocial Personality Disorder. NPD by itself is very rare. Narcissistic tendencies are usually just a bonus.

[The Doctor.]

24. No. it's closer to Intrinsic egomaniacal frustration.

Maybe even borderline megalomania... but it's not 'Narcissism'. 'Narcissism' stresses 'self-love' above ambition.

NPD isn't all that rare either, it's nearly 1%.

[msallied]

30. Now you're just splitting hairs. lol

Either way, it ain't pretty, and it ain't typical behavior in the least. Whether she's an egomaniac or a narcissist, her behavior has proven to be destructive. Whether her actions are guided by self-love or ruthless ambition, she is acting without conscience. That is not merely human behavior, however. Otherwise millions of people wouldn't be horrified by it.

[The Doctor.]

37. She may have ego issues, but it's not a disorder. It's not NPD.

[msallied]

53. No, she has another disorder. I've already said that. I don't agree she has NPD.

Just narcissistic tendencies. You can be a drama queen without having Histrionic Personality Disorder.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

21. Definitely NPD....

both her and Bill...

[msallied]

31. No, it's more like APD. I firmly believe they just have

narcissistic tendencies. But generally, they are sociopaths.

[Swamp Rat]

22. She can grow a beard like Al Gore.

I heard that helps, especially if someone wants to win a Nobel. :D

[Aloha Spirit]

26. haha

[genna]

27. Please spare us the excuse. Most big boys and girls know they have to concede at the end.

Do you think they are any less disappointed than HRC?

If the goal of feminism is to have equal access, equal pay, and equal opportunity, how would a feminist explain how she is acting considering she had those things.


This is A HUGE LOAD OF B.S. I watched Charlie Rangel speak out of both sides of his mouth on Andrea Mitchell's show today at 1 pm. This woman is corrupted. It doesn't matter whether or not she is a narcissist. Her behavior is unbecoming.

[msallied]

32. Well put. I agree completely...

Regardless of what clinical labels we try to slap on her, she is acting in a manner that could only be described as horrific.

[Independent-Voter]

33. It's "Hard Work." Where have I heard that line before? Hmmm

[HeraldSquare212]

35. She's an adult, there's an important election to win, this is self-absorbed and ridiculous.

[canadian_is_cold]

38. *****Narcissistic Personality Disorder*****

She is a textbook case.

DSM Criteria for NPD

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following<1>:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/narcissisticpd.htm

[The Doctor.]

42. No, she isn't. Those are your subjective interpretations... the same could be said of Obama.

1) He's running for President after barely one term in the Senate. One down.
2) He wants to have the power and success of the Presidency. Two down.
3) Same as above. Three down.
4) Has to speak to crowds of tens of thousands of cheering fans. Four down.
5) Junior Senator thinks he should be President. Five down.
6) Threw his Pastor under a bus. Six down.
7) He's a phony. Seven down.
8) Check. Screaming crowds. Eight Down.
9) Thinks he deserves the Presidency as a junior Senator. Nine down.

We're talking about someone running for President, from the perspective of us little people, that makes all the candidates somewhat narcissistic. None of the behaviors displayed by the candidates can be considered clinical examples because the setting prevents any kind of objective measurement.

If some guy you worked with in the cubicle next to you acted like he deserved to be president, he'd have a disorder. If someone who is running for president acts like they deserve to be president, then they're just optimistic and ambitious.

Trying to diagnose these people outside of the context of their circumstances is simply pitching out of your league.

Does she have some indications of narcissism? Yes, as do most people who run for high office. They will also tend to have indications of OCD, Mania, Depression... that doesn't mean they have a disorder.

[rebel with a cause]

70. Wow talk about not being objective.

Your desciption of Obama is very biased. 7) He's a phony. How professional of you and all knowing. and all the others have to do with him being a junior senator. Your bus is out of gas, and you just lost yourself a passenger.

[The Doctor.]

103. Wow, that went RIGHT over your head. Ummm.... here's a clue...

That was the point I was trying to make...

It's subjective.

Read the post over and over until you get it.

Good luck!

:hi:

[canadian_is_cold]

107. What can I say? If the evaluation criteria fits....

:rofl:

This is not my personal criteria... What I posted it is from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. It is a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association to set forth diagnostic criteria. If you had bothered to read my post you would know that.

[Triana]

60. YES. She is. n/t

[undeterred]

39. The sense of entitlement she has is a dead giveaway: NARCISSISM

[canadian_is_cold]

40. Amazing.. she only needs 5 to be suspect, but she has all 9 .. eeek

[The Doctor.]

43. Then how do you explain the sense of entitlement Obama the JUNIOR Senator must have?

It's not narcissism, it's just bad judgement.

[undeterred]

51. I don't see a bit of arrogance or narcissism in him at all.

No sense of entitlement either. That's why people are attracted to him.

[The Doctor.]

65. Right, and your subjective impression is all the clinical data anyone needs...

Do you really not get it?

Having a sense of entitlement does not indicate a mental disorder... especially when the subject has worked to achieve that goal. The narcissist has an unfounded sense of entitlement. They believe they should get everything they want just because they're them.

Yes, Clinton does display a sense of entitlement (in my subjective opinion), but she has it because she's worked for it. If Obama had a more prominents sense of entitlement, perhaps he would have earned it as well, but it wouldn't mean he's NPD.

[EFerrari]

67. Where do you observe behavior that suggests a sense of entitlement?

Curious.

[The Doctor.]

98. It's just a sense I get that she 'expected' to get the nomination. It was almost as if

she was treating the primary as a 'formality'.

Other than that, she really did spend a long time getting herself there just to have the rug pulled out.

[EFerrari]

109. Sorry. I thought you were referring to Obama. n/t

[canadian_is_cold]

108. ummmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EX-6WSyym4

[EFerrari]

110. lol. I was asking about Obama.

:)

[janet118]

92. Er . . . isn't Hillary a "junior senator" as well

She was elected in 2000. He in 2004.

Frankly, I don't care what her diagnosis is. She behaved like a petulant, prom queen. Many of her supporters want no part of this drama. They really expected her to be gracious and generous to her rival. She could have been a star last night but she chose to be a self-absorbed whiner. She stole Obama's night and claimed it should have been hers. I only hope, for her sake and the sake of the party, she snaps out of this delusional thought pattern before she has to be dragged away from the stage, kicking and screaming.

It was Obama who stepped up to the plate. He praised her efforts and called for unity. He phoned her first and is giving her cover for her hissy-fit. I want him to be my president. I can't believe I ever thought Hillary had the judgment and demeanor to be president. Ready from Day 1 at 3 AM? Hmmm . . . should I take the high road or low road? Big decision there. And which road does she pick - the one more traveled by lesser humans.

[Two Americas]

41. almost half of the votes

She got almost half of the votes. She is acting like any candidate in a similar position would act. Ted Kennedy, Jerry Brown, Jesse Jackson, Dennis Kucinich, George McGovern, and Eugene McCarthy - to name just a few candidates from the modern era who took campaigns to the convention - all ran until the bitter end with much less support than Clinton has.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

68. George McGovern was the nominee...

not such a great example...

[Two Americas]

74. incorrect

You assumed I was talking about '72. I was referring to '68.

[rebel with a cause]

45. Huh, people who have Narcissism

are human. I have known a couple and Hillary could very well fit into the catagory. Narcissism has some things in common with anti-social personality disorder, like feeling the world revolves around them. Following is a list of things listed at Wikipedia attributed to the disorder of Narcissism of which a person may have partial or all of when suffering from the illness.

Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
Uses others to reach goals
Exaggerates own importance
Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
Seeks constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Is easily jealous <11>
Has a sense of entitlement
Is interpersonally exploitative
Lacks empathy
Displays arrogant behavior
Displays haughty behavior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_(psychology)

[ShortnFiery]

48. No, it's a sick minded disorder.

[MadHound]

49. Horse-fucking-shit!

How many other politicians have been at the place where Hillary is, having to recognize that their dream of being POTUS is done and over with, something that they will never accomplish? Yet each and every one of those politicians, at least in my lifetime, has conceded gracefully and with good cheer. Hillary hasn't done that. Worse yet, it appears that she is trying to leverage or perhaps even demand the VP spot.

There is no excuse for these bullshit tactics. If her psyche is wounded, fine, whatever, suck it up, do the right thing and move on. Don't jeopordize the best chance that we've had for awhile for a Dem victory by continuing to tear the party apart in pursuit of your own goal.

It is time for her to grow the fuck up, stop playing the victim, stop demanding that she be mollycoddled, stop demanding that it all be about Hillary.

[The Doctor.]

56. So many of you are just playing armchair psychologists and pitching out of your league.

I know there's a need to make what she's doing seem like an affliction... as though that will dehumanize her enough to despise her more easily. Yes, it's what you're doing.

"She's broken", "she's flawed". Well sure she is, as much as anyone might be who's put so much into something. But it's not NPD. By the criteria you guys are raising, every politician who runs for high office must be clinically insane.

She's behaved badly, she's selfish, she's even arrogant, but it's plenty mundane enough not to have to think she has to be fitted for a straight-jacket.

Maybe I can't say the same for some of her supporters, but don't play psychologist by trying to explain bad behavior with mental disorders. There isn't enough real evidence to draw such conclusions, and it simply doesn't work that way.

But by all means, keep telling me I'm wrong. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

63. I don't mean to make you "wrong" but, this is the thing.

It's not "pitching out of your league" to notice that someone's behavior is out of the mainstream. Only doctors can diagnose, but plain old people can observe -- because we have to, in order to deal with the personalities around us.

[The Doctor.]

69. Her behavior is wrong, you'll get no argument from me. But like I said,

there simply isn't enough objective information to declare that she's NPD.

NPD is usually one of the more obvious disorders. Her colleagues would have long taken note of it, and we'd have many anecdotes by now.

They're just not there.

[EFerrari]

75. I don't want to make any claim to a DX, but the stories are there.

I really don't know much about Clinton, but her inability to get along with Gore generated stories just as the way she handled the healthcare project generated stories. The way she talked about MoveOn also demonstrates some really black and white thinking -- how do you forget that an organization like that was started to support you and your spouse -- unless your brain is messing with you and you feel attacked?

The way her identity kept changing through out the campaign is an example of someone whose sense of self waffles on them, which is one thing folks with personality disorders are always contending with. Maybe other people have other examples.

But, you know of course, that people don't decide to have these issues? When they walk all over other people, they don't really feel or know that they're doing something that is out of bounds or unacceptable? When they do damage to their lives as a consequence of this behavior, they suffer for it. It wasn't their real choice in the first place.

[mdmc]

64. I thought that every politician that ran for office could in fact be

diagnosed with NPD. I thought that was just part of the game.

[rebel with a cause]

78. Actually to say that she has a personality disorder

would give one less reason to dislike her. She would be a victim of her disorder, and likely unable to distinguish that what she is doing is unreasonable. By what you are saying, that she is just behaving badly, we should really look down on her because she is choosing to behave this way. By the way, most of us with personality disorders never require a strait-jacket (you mis-spelled it by the way). These types of personality disorders are ones that requires learning to live with and in the best scenario some learn to recognize their own symptoms. Narcissism and Anti-social personality disorders may be hard for self recognition.

[The Doctor.]

83. Oh, there's a reason I put it that way. Let me ask you;

Does believing she has a real disorder make it easier for you to forgive her behavior?

[rebel with a cause]

88. If I really believed she had a disorder and

if it was acknowledged, then the answer would be yes. I am more inclined to believe she has narcissistic tendencies.

Let me explain it to you like this. I believe/know my ex-husband has either narcissisism or anti-social disorder and that did not stop me from divorcing him when I could not take it anymore. It doesn't stop me from hating when he comes to visit our daughter because even though I may think that he is ill, he is still damaging to those around him and those that care for him (like our daughter). For years I put up with his lying on me and our children, with him causing trouble for me with his friends, family and even parts of my family, and I put up with a lot more abuse because I saw in time that he was ill. But there came a time when I could no longer put up with it because it was not only destroying me but also our children so I sent him back to his family who would care for him. He didn't stay there, but came back to this area. I live with my daughter so now when he comes back around and is in his charming stage, it is easy to forget and even to love him in a sense. But then it hits me smack in the face when the real him reappears and he accuses me of things I would never think of doing. His now wife has been told that I want him back. NO WAY! She and others have been told that he is financially supporting not only me but his two adult children. NO WAY! There are too many other lies for me to even list. And he was made a practice of now telling my daughter all of his problems, you know how all those other people are mistreating him and she believes him. He is tearing her apart and I cannot convince her what he is and what he is doing.

So, yes if I knew she really had this illness I could forgive her but I still would not want her as president because I know what this type of personality can do to tear people apart.

[Lilith Velkor]

89. Who are you and what have you done with Dr_eldritch?

:wow:

[The Doctor.]

93. I'm Rational... as always.

[grantcart]

71. Of course your right

She may not even be 'delusional'.

They may have known that there would have been some negative blowback but it was worth the short term risk and repairable.

The Clinton's subscribe to the theory that its better to be involved and break it because its easier to fix it later than to try and get to the table from the outside.

[The Doctor.]

80. "Forgiveness is easier to get than permission." - Yep.

Frankly, I hope Obama just ignores her.

[Stephanie]

77. If she wants to play with the boys, she's got to learn to take her loss like a man.

Instead she's throwing a hissy fit. It's unseemly.

[Haole Girl]

79. Agreed.

As angry as I am about last night, I don't think she has a mental disorder. She is quite the actress, though. I mean, to "put on a happy face" the way she did last night...whew! Maybe there is some denial? I'm certainly not a mental health professional, though.

[Bluerthanblue]

82. well- are narcissists not also "human"? Or do we

equate being less than "perfect" with being inhuman- ie: "them"- "monsters"- "sub-human".

Because like it or not- people who are narcissists ARE human. So are psychopaths, sociopaths, pedophiles, etc.

No one actively chooses to suffer from personality disorders. That is the saddest part. Often times those who need our patience, compassion and sympathy the most, have behaviours which cause us to distance ourselves from them.

Healthy people do not enjoy being marginalized. Society likes to blame people for their problems, because it allows a sense of comfort and protection to exist. But the truth is, no one can control who falls victim to mental illnesses like the ones you reference.

peace~

[applegrove]

85. I agree she doesn't have a disorder. She just wanted this win more than anything.

[ecstatic]

87. The Clintons had their turn. Make no mistake, they are a team nt

[redqueen]

90. So... all the other candidates who've failed before her and bowed out gracefully...

they weren't human?

:wtf:

[The Doctor.]

94. No, they were just more reasonable. Perhaps even more realistic.

She really did have a tiny sliver of hope up until the last couple of months.

[redqueen]

96. She's pushy.

That doesn't mean we should infantilize her.

I doubt this kind of thing would ever be said about a male candidate.

It's honestly downright appalling IMO.

[The Doctor.]

97. Can you imagine if a guy were acting this way?

[redqueen]

99. Yeah.

He'd be ridiculed nonstop... kinda like what happens to Kucinich.

It wouldn't be "oh poor so-and-so, give them time"... it'd be "BWAAAHAHAAHAH!" and "what the fuck are they smoking?!" adn that sort of crap.

[frickaline]

91. I believe you are correct, sir!

K&R

It is all to easy to see these candidates as more or less than human. More difficult is it to keep their humanity in mind.

[DeschutesRiver]

100. Al Gore had to deal with this too.

I don't know what her official diagnosis is, but right now she is on the verge of being forever known as a laughingstock.

This was the candidate who pounded home her experience, "ready from DAY ONE." Who put out an ad suggesting only she could be ready to answer those 3 am phone calls.

Yet she wasn't ready for what clearly had become inevitable a few weeks ago? Who needs "time" "space" and other special handling in order to be "ready" to concede the obvious? To be ready merely to be able to graciously congratulate the winner of the nomination? Who still isn't ready to do that, yet Bush, McCain, the House, the Senate, and most of the world have already done so?

There is something wrong with her, and no, it isn't just an inability to cope with this loss. She was thwarted in her ambitions, and is unwilling to accept it. I am just grateful that as a nation, we've now had the opportunity to witness in the most clear manner yet her complete inability to act as appropriate when it matters.

Thank god we didn't find this out in the middle of some damned world crisis. Because nobody who is truly fit for the top office needs this much time to accept the obvious.

[alarimer]

102. I would guess that no one here is qualified to diagnose mental illness at a distance either.

ALL politicians are giant egomaniacs, even the great Lord OBama, the second coming of Christ. ALL politicians are ambitious; ALL are snake-oil salesman. And they are all on the take. Some only take campaign contributions but that is just legal corruption.

Sorry if I don't buy into all the adulation for the golden boy.

For the record, I never planned on voting for Clinton either.

[The Doctor.]

104. Then you're voting forrrrrr........????

[Warren DeMontague]

105. I would say all of our Primary Candidates tend to be ambitious, hard workers, and planners.

And I would wager most of them are terribly disappointed when they don't win.

Yet they acknowledge the loss, they congratulate the victor, and they work to unify the party.

I think her ego has gotten in the way, frankly- that, and her sense of entitlement that bought into the blather early on about how she was "inevitable".