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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:54 AM
Original message
The Hillary Problem: Welcome Back to the Show that Never Ends
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:21 AM by Vyan

The Democratic Nomination is over, except for it not being over.

Barack Obama is now the Presumptive Nominee for President of The United States. At least until the convention.

In the meanwhile, we have a strong second place finish by Candidate Hillary Clinton who has yet to acknowledge Obama's win, and yet to suspend her campaign and yet to concede defeat.

It's only been a single day, but instead of rallying her troops in solidarity with Barack to the greater fight that awaits us, by all indications and certainly based on her speech last night - Hillary Clinton is still in it to win it.

So what should Obama and his supporters do about this?


One thing they may have to admit is there isn't anything they can say that will make Hillary and her supporters happy. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't say them anyway.

Obama supporters could try to forgive Hillary for her MLK/LBJ comments, by admitting that her larger point was that it takes more than just inspiration to get things done, it also takes a skilled legislator and skill leader to implement our best aspirations. (Something which Barack has already shown by passing Health Care Bills, and Middle-class tax cuts as a State Senator as well as Nuclear anti-proliferation and ethics reform as a U.S. Senator)

They can try to forgive Bill Clinton for his South Carolina comments about Jesse Jackson, since his larger point was nothing more than what he said : Barack ran a great campaign and so did Jesse, period.

They can try to forgive Bob Johnson, because Bob's greater point was that Hillary was on the front-lines of the Civil Rights movement while Barack was still a kid who didn't yet know up from down. (Obviously, he's grown up since then.)

They can try to forgive Hillary's the "hard-working white voters" comments, since all she was doing was repeating what the press had already been saying for weeks.

They can try to simply put Geraldine Ferraro out of sight and out of mind.

They can try to forget and forgive the "3 Am", Sniper-fire, Bitter-gate and "Slum-lord" talk as simply being the result of the heat of the campaign. Hard fighters can sometimes swing wide.

As the ultimate winner of the contest, Barack and his supporters have room to be forgiving. This we should do not because we need to appease and placate those who still feel passionately about Hillary, but simply because, it's the right thing to do and it costs us nothing.

The one thing that IMO is pretty much impossible to ignore or forgive, at least not yet, is Hillary's continued insistence that she has "Won the Popular Vote" when the Magical Math needed to justify that statement requires the disenfranchisement of 14 Caucus States, plus all the uncommitted and write-in votes from Michigan.

That's not a misstatement, that's not a typo, that's not matter that's "open to interpretation" - it's a deliberate manipulation and as such, it's a bit much to swallow.

It's a direct denial of Barack's Win. It's a challenge to his legitimacy, one which can not be allowed to stand for the good of the party.

It's become clear based on her actions and her speech yesterday, that Hillary intends to leverage her popular vote numbers and her high delegate count in order to issue demands and ultimatums upon the Obama campaign.

Her goal may be to shoe-horn her way into the Shootgun Wedding of a VP slot. It may be to push Obama to adopt policy positions (such as on Health Care) which are more in line with hers. Whatever her ultimately goal, what matters is how Obama responds.

Obama and his supporters can certainly afford to be gracious and magnanimous - but one thing they can't afford to be are pushovers!

Clinton may indeed have made history this year, she may have indeed drawn much of the Democratic Party to her side - but before Barack gives her the keys to the White House washroom, she still needs to put in some much needed work first. She needs to show that the can bring her army into line, begin to merge forces with Obama and display her willingness to be a team player and help heal the party in preparation for November before he starts giving her stuff willy nilly.

He's the winner, he has to set the agenda.

If he allows the loser to dictate terms to him, then he really is every bit as weak as she has long been intimating and in fact, she really is the stronger candidate.

This has now become a behind the scenes negotiation/poker/staring contest between the two of them over who will begin to start providing concessions first - and my money is still on Barack to be last person standing when the dust settles. He holds the card that matters, He's The Nominee!

Barack may be gracious outwardly but behind the scenes he's going to have to be tough, hard-nosed, and make her blink by holding his ground and displaying HIS leadership ability as the newly annoited head of the Democratic Party.

It's not going to be fun, it's not going to be pretty. It may take some time for these negotiations to play themselves out. The Hillacrats will certainly cry "foul", will certainly accuse Barack of "ignoring the will of the people", but this is the way it has to go because if Hillary can strong-arm Barack it will only undermine his own support, pissing off many of them who can't bring themselves to forgive Hillary for her scorched-earth campaign and galvanize all of the Republican talking points about his "inexperience and naivette".

It's admittedly possible that if Hillary doesn't get "WHAT SHE WANTS" she could hold-out with her delegates and force a floor fight for VP during the convention, since both President and Vice-President have to be confirmed by a vote of the delegates. She could still take this battle all the way to the wall.

It would be better for everyone if that didn't happen. That would ensure that he loses in November, and none of us can afford that.

Short of a quick capitulation by Barack or a contentious floor fight over VP, there is a path that may ultimately allow Hillary a spot on the ticket or even in the cabinet, say as head of HHS, if she is willing to do the right thing for the party by showing a willingness to fight FOR our Democratic Nominee WITHOUT CONDITIONS OR ULTIMATUMS as she was willing to fight against him to win the Nomination herself. However, continuing to try and use sharp elbows is only going to backfire and make her not only unwelcome and unpalatable as a member of the Obama Administration, it could make her poisonous to nearly all Democrats and shorten her political career.

I have confidence that Barack will do the right thing.

Let's hope that Hillary, for the sake of the Democratic Party and for the sake of the Nation, can make the difficult - but correct - choices in the days and weeks ahead.

Vyan


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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent characterization K&R
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. LOL -"passing Health Care Bills, and Middle-class tax cuts as a State Senator as well as Nuclear .."
"passing Health Care Bills, and Middle-class tax cuts as a State Senator as well as Nuclear anti-proliferation and ethics reform as a U.S. Senator" is such a reach it is funny.

That "Nuclear anti-proliferation" was a rider to ask the State Dept to do the usual annual "Nuclear anti-proliferation" 20 page paper "study"

Can we say GRANDSTANDING - a nothing rider that the GOP in charge allowed to be added as a rider because he begs the GOP so well.

Indeed his only other bill, passed with a GOP co-sponsor, included a tax cut for corporations.
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Smokey Backrooms ???? N/t
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R nt
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raebrek Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Welcome
Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends. We're so glad you could attend. come inside come inside.

Raebrek!!!
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Where's the synthesizer?
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raebrek Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. I know you could hear it as soon as you read the words.
Couldn't you?

Raebrek!!!
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. So, which part is next?
Soon the Gypsy Queen in a glaze of vaseline
Will perform on guillotine, what a scene, what a scene


or..



Performing on a stool we've a sight to make you drool
Seven virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. No vice presidency for Hillary.
I WILL NOT forgive her for the racism and character assassination she injected into her campaign.
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Clinton's will now go for a Co-Presidency
- the Clinton's are a package deal.

- they are not going away (and neither will the DLC until someone drives a wooden stake through it's nasty little heart)
- they are both way to egotistical and meglo to just walk away


After the dirty little campaign they have run it should be obvious that Obama could never trust these two at his back.
If they are involved at the highest levels - Obama will be distracted by having to keep these two under control.




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IllinoisBirdWatcher Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. They always have, not its three person rather than two n/t
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CubicleGuy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Hillary's term limited out, in my book
Bill and Hill have always made it known that when you vote for one of them, you magically get the other one, too. Well, if that's the case, Hillary has already had her two terms in office, and according to the Constitution, she's done.

Sorry, Mrs. Clinton, but you can't have it both ways.
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
48. lol Good point
:toast:
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. He'd have to always be keeping one eye on the Clintons
And I don't think he's got an eye to spare. Maybe Clinton Wrangler could be a new cabinet-level position.
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
45. self-delete
Edited on Thu Jun-05-08 08:31 AM by nvme
self- delete
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IllinoisBirdWatcher Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. Great Post. Let her have her freaking floor fight
and then take her marbles, her over-50 women (the ONLY demographic group she has left), her loud-mouth husband, and her slimy threats and GO HOME.

They either rejoin the Democratic coalition, or we continue to forge a new one without them.

There is no special prize for second place, no matter how much Hillary wants and demands one.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. Hillary Has No Place to Go--Except Home With Bill
She is persona non grata. There's too much to forgive or overlook for it to be otherwise.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. Senator Obama - DO NOT PAY THE RANSOM
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 11:33 AM by WillYourVoteBCounted
Hillary will still eliminate the hostages (democratic party).

Worse you will be seen as capitulating to the LOSER of the democratic primary,
which will make you look weak.

Worse, McCain will be able to lable you as an appeaser of hostile crazy dictators.
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katerinasmommy Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Anyone that thinks she cares about anything other than herself
is kidding themselves.
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ironrooster Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
14.  Both the greatest flaw and the greatest asset
of republicans is their loyalty to the party. Loyalty to a fault. OTOH - hill and bill are loyal to themselves first and foremost. The party does not need folks like this and I hope Obama resists any call to place her(them) on the ticket. She will be more of a deficit than a positive inducement to vote Dem in Nov.by the fence sitters.

I'm sure that her loyalists will be outnumbered by those who hate her guts and just stay home. She should be gracious and stand aside. NO MORE DLC! THEY NEED TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM OR BECOME REPUBLICANS -SAME GOES FOR LIEberman.

He needs to ask Wes Clark - although I think Wes advocated for hill early on. However, if Wes is brought in then McCain is squashed like the prevaricating little weasel he has come to be.
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feemee Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Disgusting
This is like when the first black man won "The Apprentice", and they tried to force him to share his win, with the woman that came second.This is so disrespectful,Hillary has done nothing but disrespected Obama all the way and now she wants to be rewarded.I can just about forgive him for giving in ,to the bigots by leaving his place of worship,but if he makes Hillary, the bad loser his VP ,I as a black person will never forgive him.I will hate him more than i hate Bush.He should get a back bone and stand UP to that vile witch.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Sorry - but some folks see the reverse - that Obama -David and fans are disrespectful of Hillary
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. Oh thank you, thank you
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 12:45 PM by TrogL
You just made my week. I can't remember the last time there's been an ELP shoutout!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson,_Lake_&_Palmer

http://www.emersonlakepalmer.com/

For those who don't know the musical reference it's from Karn Evil 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karn_Evil_9) on Brain Salad Surgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Salad_Surgery) . On the LP version it starts up just as you flip the record over.

http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/wbmf.wav

YouTube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeQsZOQqO6I&feature=related
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Is Hillary now Aquatarkus?
Having been defeated by the manticore?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. Very well said
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hillary lost. Obama won. - Time to let it go, and move on.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. They can't
Hate is the core of their lives. Without Hillary to hate, they would be as lost as the republicans after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It is what gives them meaning.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. "He's the winner, he has to set the agenda."
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 12:20 PM by RufusTFirefly
Well put, Vyan

Sad to say (and no, I'm not comparing Hillary Clinton to the Republicans), but the lesson the Democrats fail to learn in dealing with the Republicans is that if you give them and inch, they inevitably take a mile.

At this point, as you suggest, "there isn't anything they can say that will make Hillary and her supporters happy." But saying and doing are different things. Again, I agree that efforts should be made at conciliation but they should not be at the expense of the Obama campaign's whole raison d'etre. If the candidate of "hope" and "change" teams up with the consummate inside-the-Beltway, dog-whistle politician, he runs the risk of alienating his supporters. Obama needs to welcome Clinton supporters into his campaign, not transform his campaign so it more closely resembles Clinton's.

P.S. As is the case with many here, Obama is my third choice. Each time, I've had to suck it up and choose from the candidates that remain. That's a lesson some Clinton supporters still need to learn.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. Until last night I did not feel as strongly against Hillary as VP as I do now.
I would not have been please, but would have accepted Obama's choice had it been her. This does not look or sound like she thinks it should be his choice. Incredible..power hungry until the bitter end.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. Gotta kick this thread!
Forgiveness is healing, and we need healing inside the party. I do, however, feel differently than I did yesterday about Sen. Clinton as a VP choice. If Obama thinks he can work with her and chooses her, then I will try to deal with my own negative feelings about it. She needs to CONCEDE NOW. She lost. It. Is. Over. K&R! :kick:
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hillary Clinton is now nothing more than a saboteur.
A saboteur of the Democratic party and should be regarded as such. That's too bad, what a shame.

Her actions remind me of a classic disgruntled woman's attitude. If she can't have her way, then, go out and sabotage it for those who she thought owed to her to have her way.

Sadly, Hillary has accomplished showing herself to be a megalomaniac and I for one am grateful she won't be in charge of the White House. I wish we could of had Kucinich, but, Obama looks like he'll do just fine, even considering what mess he's being handed from the trash Bush generated.

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Mostly I see the saboteurs
as those who keep up the hate. Nothing helps the republicans more. You do remember the republicans, don't you. george bush? john mccain? karl rove? Every little post like this and the OP delight these truly evil men.
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Madam Mossfern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Actually, what helps the Republicans more
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 04:43 PM by Madam Mossfern
are disgruntled DEMOCRATS voting for them and threatening to support them if they don't get their way. Remember, it is some Clinton supporters that are dividing the party, not the other way around.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. We disagree.
I see gloating from true Obama supporters and malicious trolling by rnc operatives as dividing the party. It wasn't that long ago that many Obama supporters vowed not to vote for Hillary if she were the nominee. Follow the thread on Hillary as VP. There are Democrats there who say they would be "disgruntled" enough to avoid voting for and Obama/Clinton ticket.

I think you know in your heart that most Clinton supporters are trying to find a way to become enthusiastic again. Had Clinton gotten the nomination, it wouldn't be any different. If your candidate were the one in second place and you had hundreds of posts calling him a fraud and a drag on the party, would you be all sweetness and love for Clinton? Let us mourn what we need. The Obama supporters who are throwing dirt on the Hillary campaign's demise are not the ones uniting the party. Being a sore winner is much worse than being a sore loser.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. you saw the OP as malicious too
more so than post #27?

The sore loser is acting like she will not concede, like she wants to fight to the death. That's the motivation for the sore winners.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. So you admit that it is all spite
and teaching Hillary a lesson and making sure that the loser begs you for forgiveness? You admit that winning in November is not your prime motivation for posting?

We disagree on the interpretation of Hillary's course of action. We don't know what Barack would have done. We don't know what discussions are taking place. But we know that some don't care about November as long as Hillary gets slapped around a little more. Even if we had the same interpretation of her actions, we would be in disagreement about how to deal with it. Shutting up for the good of the party and stifling our perceived right to gloat for the sake of beating mccain would be my course of action. Others may decide that chest thumping and playing the role of strict school marm is their course. It's just that that path leads to a more difficult race for Obama. If that matters.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Where the heck did you get that?
The whole point is that continuing the fight hurts us for November. There is less gloating than there is complaining that she STILL seems determined to hurt the Democratic Party and Democratic nominee. You need to quit pretending that the actions of a few anonymous writers on the web are more significant or harmful than the actions of the Tsarina herself.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Oh yeah,
You're right. Let's all come together by calling each other names. It will make things better if you call her Tsarina. What names can I call Obama to help make the party heal. If the whole point is that continuing the fight hurts us, stop continuing the fight. You can't control other people, just yourself. Nowhere in my posts have I ever called Obama a name. Nowhere have I said he is destroying the party. He has every right to run for president and to take it as far as he wants to - just like Jesse Jackson, Ted Kennedy, and Gary Hart did. Do you hate those men for trying to destroy the party? Post your disgust with them.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. maybe I have
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4774081

but that's all water under the damn, except for what we can learn from history by not repeating Ted Kennedy's mistake. I can try to control other people either by reasoning with them, or by calling them names in the hope that they will stop the behaviour that motivates the name calling.
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palindrome Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
32. Except that John McCain is also presumptive
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. Sounds like you'd like to keep the Dem party divided
Your choice.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
35. What is it about victory that makes Obama fans so angry?
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. Nothing..
other than Clinton attempting to upstage Obama victory and being told that daring to ENJOY that victory is "disrespectful and hurtful" to Clinton. Look, I don't much care about dancing in this end-zone, I want us to all dance (together or not, whatever it takes) in the Pennsylvania Ave END-Zone. Get it?
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hillary...GET OUT NOW!!!!!! nt
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
37. I think it is not beyond her to pull a Lie-berman and destroy
the democratic chances completely.
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janetblond Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. and to think Liebermann was AL GORE'S running mate!
Obama/Clinton?
HELL NO!!
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. and to think, Liebermann was Obama's senate mentor!
Maybe Barack can pick a nice conservative to run with him too.
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. That is a nasty shot twisting facts
Edited on Thu Jun-05-08 08:33 AM by nvme
This is the same vitriol that you are lecturing about? The mentors are picked for the in-coming senators. There was no choice involved on Obama's part. No one in their right mind would choose Lieberman unless they wanted to rise in the republican party.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. You're right.
No one here would want to do that. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
42. K&R! (but oh god what a nightmare) n/t
PB
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
50. Looks like this could be a permanent column and you could just update it every day
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
51. I think the OP topic title left out the McCainist words ...
Welcome back, "my friends", to the show that never ends.

My friends.
:hi:
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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. That was deliberate n/t
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
53. Wish it wasn't too late to rec this, but here's a kick!
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