If the heterosexuals here knew what gays generally think of Andrew Sullivan, they would not post

[Neshanic]

and beg to have his stuff K and R.

I know there's some Obama supporters that are gay and forgive and forget, but this is not the way to unify, by posting one of the biggest cheerleaders of Bush and it would do some of you some good to read the nasty stuff he writes about his fellow gays.

He's a unsafe sex internet troll, at the least and a self hating republican wannbe that if you did a little research, would find he is not looked on with admiration except by the Log Cabin types, aids revisionists unappreciative gay history gang.

That's why he is the "safe homo" for public view by the MSM.

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. I know all about Bareback Andy, thanks

And he hasn't been a Bush cheerleader for a long damned time now; he supported Kerry in 2004.

As to his conservatism, it seems pretty soft in some areas; the self-hating is something you have to wonder about, since he's still a Catholic, but he's still more Tory than Republican, which means he's not a complete fascist.

[Neshanic]

2. Seems he is still on the fence between McCain and Obama. How you like him now?

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. He doesn't seem to be so much on the fence, from what I've seen.

Someone who posts on his blog re Obama with the headline 'Yes We did' doesn't seem to be wavering toward McCain.

[redqueen]

14. What makes you say he's on the fence?

Please... I'd really like to know.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Got evidence?

[beachmom]

52. He's not a Democrat, he's a right leaning Independent. BUT, he is

disgusted with Republican rule. He certainly hasn't ruled out supporting McCain, but his heart is definitely with Obama. If he were to suddenly change his mind and back McCain, I would stop reading his blog. I've done that before when I've had sharp differences with him, and I'll do it again if need be. But for the moment his blog offers a wealth of links and stories, and his opinionating on the primaries has been pretty spot on.

[chascarrillo]

3. Dan Savage is a "Log Cabin type"?

Hunh.

[Neshanic]

6. What?

[chascarrillo]

7. I'll repeat myself, then. Dan Savage is a "Log Cabin type"?

[Neshanic]

12. What does this have to do with Andrew Sullivan?

[Fran Kubelik]

29. The OP says that only log cabin types like Sullivan

Savage has expressed admiration for Sullivan in the past. Not his only mis-step (see also Iraq war).

[terrya]

13. Dan Savage is a solid, liberal Democrat.

"bzzzzt" Wrong.

I have no use for Bareback Andy.

[Neshanic]

15. Yes, and?

[Neshanic]

16. Yes, and?

[JackBeck]

19. Where did the OP mention Dan Savage?

[chascarrillo]

38. Where the OP said that only Log Cabin types admire Sullivan

Mind you, I don't understand what Savage sees in the guy, but he's certainly not a Log Cabin type.

[CreekDog]

4. what he has gotten right in recent years and the ability to write about it well is enough for me

1) supporting Kerry in 04
2) opposing continuation of the Iraq War
3) supporting the right of all couples to marry
4) supporting Obama this year, quite eloquently i might add

what you describe about him is a legitimate criticism and Sullivan sounds like he was horribly irresponsible to encourage that.

but on balance, to quote him in political discussions when he makes a good point --he is good enough for me to do that here.

[Neshanic]

11. He likes McCain. Really.

[redqueen]

22. Says who? Just you?

Cite evidence or it's meaningless BS.

[beachmom]

53. I'll back up the OP that Sully likes McCain. BUT, a lot of people, even here, used

to like McCain. And I see Sully cooling on McCain these days. It is not in the bag that Sully will support Obama when it comes time to endorse in the fall. But he is definitely leaning that way now.

[xchrom]

5. i don't care about his sex prctises -- i care that he's a

conservative -- first and last -- and that he sound the 'light' when he had his ass handed to him innumerbale times.

the ONLY reason this guy has a platform to speak of at all is that he is a conservative and gay.

therefore seemingly unique to the 'media' -- but he has more in common with the typical republic party leadership than differences.

and -- for my money -- he is distinctly anti-gay -- because of that.

[EFerrari]

8. I don't know much about Andrew but have enjoyed his appearances

on Bill Maher, and especially after he turned against the war and admitted how wrong he'd been.

[cyndensco]

34. It was interesting seeing him morph on Maher.

I remember being totally against his politics when he was pro-bush. Then, one day many years ago, he was back on the panel and was anti-bush/anti-war. I place as much importance on his viewpoint as I do anyone else (which isn't a lot), but he did do a turnaround, almost a 180.

I did not know, though, that he was not liked/respected in the gay community.

[theboss]

9. I think he's an interesting writer

I don't know why I have to dismiss people as writers just because they are "conservative."

I have every PJ O'Rourke book and about five George Will collections. Why? Because I think they are good writers. I like Will, because I have to actually think when reading him in order to rebuke him.

I don't read Jonah Goldberg because he sucks.

I read Molly Ivins because she was a great writer.

I don't read Ted Rall because he sucks.

This goes on and on and on.

[Bread and Circus]

17. Being gay doesn't make you a special authority on who's respectable in the media

[Neshanic]

18. Interesting. Keep digging that gay vote grave.

[Bread and Circus]

21. The gay vote grave? Who and what are you exactly threatening?

[theboss]

23. What does that even mean?

My guess is that 85 percent of homosexuals have never heard of Andrew Sullivan, just like 85 percent of the rest of the population.

I think he is an interesting writer sometimes. And I've yelled at the page at him other times.

Should he be blacklisted because he likes Margaret Thatcher and unprotected sex? I don't understand what you want.

[dsc]

24. It isn't that he likes unprotected sex

It is that he likes that after he both killed health care reform from his perch at TNR and after criticising Bill Clinton for his extra marital sex (in Catholic moral terms). It is the hypocrisy of making people like me pay for the drugs of the people he infects all the while he refuses to pay for health care for other people. It is the hypocrisy of his having truely immoral sex and lying about it all the while decrying Clinton for his sex and his lying.

[ampad]

26. The gay vote grave?

Why are you threatening people? So someone disagrees with you on the internet and you threaten them with your vote? Go ahead vote for McCain. I'm sure McCain's evangelical base will thank you in the long run and when he gets in office and starts and all out war on gay rights you can look back at DU and say "if only that one poster didn't piss me off" :eyes:

[Umbram]

31. Wow, how pathetic. (nt)

[grantcart]

20. I assume that what you have said is largely true.

He still can be a very effective writer, sometimes very good. It should be possible when somebody has written something provocative with a unique perspective to consider the worth and the value of the idea based simply on the worth and the value of the idea without having to refight every battle that author has gone through in the past.

The logical extension of what your are suggesting is to develop a black list that only approved authors who have been vetted for appropriate gay background should be heard from.

And while I realize that he is gay I have never identified him as a gay spokesman or a gay writer. The fact that he is gay only comes to mind when other gays point that out.


If what his saying is so flawed and without merit why is it necessary to condemn his writing regardless of what he has saying?

[apocalypsehow]

27. A while back another DU'er posted some links to me about Sullivan, and I took the time to read them.

They were damning about his character, for sure, but impressed me little when it came to his ideology. Sullivan is more of a moderate Democrat with Libertarian impulses than anything, it seems to me.

And, of course, all this about his party affiliation is moot in any event: Sullivan is not an American citizen, and is therefore not entitled to vote in any of our national elections.

But while we're on the topic, where were you when the HRC boosters were posting breathless updates day in and day out about what Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the rest of the paladins of Hate Radio were chattering about on any given afternoon? Where were you when we got to read over and over that Sean thought HRC was the better candidate, or that Rush was on a roll with his daily anti-Obama commentary?

That was highly offensive to me, but I never saw "Neshanic" get up on his Sunday School perch and lecture those OP's. :shrug:

[apocalypsehow]

40. ***CRICKETS*** from the OP. Not surprising. n/t.

[Mimosa]

46. Bi broad, no stranger re: Andy

Lots of gays know who Andy is. I don't particularly like him because a few years ago he used to steal ideas from the writing of a good friend of mine. I mean lots of plagiarising off an internet forum when Andy was new to the internet.

But Andrew is basically a Democrat with Libertarian leanings, exactly as Grantcart and Apocolypsehow describe. He supported the Iraq war because like me and many others, we believed in the imminent threat. Hillary vouched for the imminent danger to America, so did Colin Powell.

I have no bigotry against anybody because of his or her faith. If Sullivan is now a believing Catholic, good for him. It's not for me to judge any more than I'd want others judging my religion.

[sandnsea]

28. I don't understand the problem

I was recently called a bigot for claiming gay men were in a higher risk group. What difference does it make if Andrew Sullivan wrote about new HIV drugs to try to reduce the fear of gay men in the hetero community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gabriel-rotello/andrew-sullivan-declares-_b_53624.html

[ej510]

30. Actually time after time this year he appeared on Real time with Bill Maher and

he has stated over and over that he is an Obama supporter.

[Mike L]

32. Why is Obama against Gay Marriage if he's so progressive? em

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Helpful hint: Obama has said he'd repeal DOMA; Clinton won't

[Mike L]

37. That doesn't answer my question. Why is Obama against Gay Marriage? em

[newmajority]

41. Obama is for civil unions with the full legal equivalency of marriage

Taking the word "marriage" out of it means that you separate the question of a religious ceremony from that of a legal contract.

Separation of church and state. A progressive value.

He believes it is an issue that should be decided by the states, and supports the recent California Supreme Court decision. This is the logical approach, because California, Massachusetts, Vermont, etc. shouldn't have to wait for Utah and Alabama to pull their heads out of their asses.

Eventually it will be a case before the US Supreme Court. Hopefully there will be a few more liberal justices in place by the time that happens.

[Mike L]

47. That's a lot of words and you still didn't explain why Obama thinks Gays and Lesbians should be

treated differently from straight couples. Why does he discriminate against same sex couples when it comes to "marriage"?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boppers]

63. Switch it around.

Gays and straights should have the same rights, hence, getting the government out of the 'marriage' business, and giving *everybody* civil unions. Churches can still call it whatever they want, but using a somewhat religious term to describe it has muddied the waters.

Put another way, it's taking away a "special right" that straight people are laying claim to.

[beachmom]

54. Better question: why is the Democratic party against gay marriage?

Because they are following their constituents. Those constituents are beginning to move, especially in blue states, but certainly not in places like Virginia which passed an anti-gay marriage/civil union amendment in 2006 while voting for Webb. It was a Democratic year, but the amendment still passed.

It is up to the people and the grassroots to MOVE Democrats in the right direction. I suggest you give Obama your feedback (written NICELY) that you want him to back gay marriage. You have to at least try.

[ruggerson]

59. Not that it matters, but you are factually incorrect

Obama is in favor of repealing both sections of DOMA.

Clinton is in favor of repealing one section, as she doesn't think the "full faith and credit" section is politically possible.

Clinton will actually have more input on this than Obama, as she will be in the Senate if this is taken up and Obama will merely sign whatever bill the two houses send up to him.

[sandnsea]

36. Why is Hillary? n/t

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newmajority]

33. You don't have to be gay to think that Sullivan is an arrogant twit

But Dan Savage is no more a Republican than I am.

[QC]

55. But being gay certainly helps one to see just how awful Sully is.

He is the gay equivalent of those black conservatives on whom the right wing media can always depend to spout the wingnut line on race, so that white, right wing viewers can say, "Look, Agnes, even that colored guy agrees that they need to stop playing the race card!"

Sully served that same purpose for many years. He could always be counted on to drop by the show and condemn the "libidinal pathology" of other gay people. We are oversexed and our culture is cheap and we are fucking ourselves to death, he would wail, as if on cue, thus validating all those ugly things right wing moralists say about us. "Look, Agnes, even that queer agrees that they are all a bunch of filthy perverts!"

He got rich doing that. For years, the media made him The Voice of Gay America. Any story requiring a gay perspective got the Sullivan treatment. You would have thought that no one in the major media knew a single gay person other than Sully.

And then, suddenly, it turned out that his own sex life made Larry Craig's look healthy and responsible. Oops. So much for all that prissy moralizing.

Most gay people dislike Sully for the same reason that most black people dislike people like Ward Connerly and Armstrong Williams. It shouldn't be so hard to understand.

[mitchum]

42. Bareback Andy is nothing but an opportunist; his favorite cock is the one on a weather vane

[PoliticalAmazon]

43. I don't see what his sexuality and sexual practices have to do with his opinions....

on the 2008 election.

Besides, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day, and even an asshat can have an opinion with which we agree once in awhile.

[mitchum]

45. It shouldn't, but that has has always been his shtick for selling his blatherings

[PoliticalAmazon]

50. Good heavens. I expect if we were to know the sexual orientation and practices...

of all pundits, some people would be very selective about who they listened to.

[IndianaJones]

44. most of the heterosexuals here could give a crap about what may bother gays. nt.

[QC]

48. Very true. n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

49. I swear to god this is the strangest thread I have seen this year.

All accusations, no evidence, and a surplus of question marks.

[newmajority]

58. Considering this is in GD:P

..that's really saying a lot.

[beachmom]

51. Well, can you post examples? I have read his blog since '04, when

he was recovering from his Bush cheerleading hangover. He has clearly changed his mind on Bush, and is a big proponent of same sex marriage. He's still a conservative, that's for sure, and I hope folks don't have any illusions about that. But I think we need more concrete evidence than what you offer. I have had my major differences with Sully, but he's been pretty right about things during this primary season.

[dsc]

56. yeah he wants full rights for himself

he always has, but he doesn't give a hoot about anyone else, that is also an always has.

[KoKo]

60. WHAT?

[Neshanic]

61. Andy's wonderfull world of gayness. Read and see.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0125,goldstein,25701,1.html

Very nice take by the writer on Sullivan:

"Why are attack queers so appealing to straight liberals? The fact is that launching an attack on gay "orthodoxies" is the surest route to celebrity for a homosexual thinker. Anyone who breaks with the movement is called courageous; anyone who mocks queer mores is seen as a true individual. In reality, writers like Paglia and Sullivan are reassuring rogues, affirming the biases that straights dare not admit they hold. Revulsion at gay sexuality remains imbedded in the liberal mind. Attack queers speak to that hidden loathing, expressing their audience's forbidden feelings. They are as nasty as straight liberals wanna be."

[QC]

62. Yep. As I said above, Sully is our very own Ward Connerly.

I don't know why that's so hard to understand.