Putting Clinton on the ticket will not make many vote Obama. Sorry but it won't.

[saracat]

Just want to make that point while you all are celebrating.There is still a huge divide in the party and the division wasn't just about Hillary . It was about sexism and making her second place doesn't cut it. But hey, whatever.I wasn't a Hillary fan but didn't like what was done to her. I never did support Obama so whatever. My vote doesn't count anyway. Just saying. Peace .

[Lucky 13]

1. debbie downer

[Blue-Jay]

11. waaa waaahhh....

[JuniperLea]

14. You totally beat me to it!

[Why Syzygy]

2. That's fine.

DU will soon be a nay sayer free zone. I guess that means you.

[saracat]

4. And your pont? Read the rules. "Constructive criticism is allowed".

Snark. And a big so what?

[Why Syzygy]

36. Calling the nominee 'sexist' is probably not going to be construed as "constructive".

[Orangepeel]

49. is "sorry, but you're going to lose" constructive?

hmmm....

[depakid]

106. "a nay sayer free zone"

Posts like this are one of the reasons why a lot of critical thinkers have had serious reservations with the Obama's campaign and its supporters. To some extent, the Kerry campaign suffered from deaf ears to- but moreso at its higher levels, than what I see regularly from the rank and file, here and elsewhere across the net.

If DU ever became a place like you seem to wish for (which of course it won't) plenty of us would leave on our own accords.

[gateley]

3. That's fine. But this is now and we have to look ahead.

I think NOT to vote for Obama and make it easier for McCain to win would set womens' rights back years.

I think if people objectively look at our choices, they'll vote for Obama, whether Hillary is on the ticket or not.

[saracat]

12. Okey Dokey . I don't think so though.

They aren't offering the Clinton folks anything and in fact have said they "don't want those votes". If they don't want them why should they have them?

[Cali_Democrat]

19. You're claiming that Obama doesn't want votes from Clinton supporters?

Please provide a link to back up your claim. Thank you in advance :hi:

[gateley]

77. The only thing I DO know,

is so many of us have been wrong so many times during this primary race. It's been all over the board and "she's done!" , "he's finished!" posts have abounded.

I'm going to step back and see what happens because I've realized, not only is that all we CAN do, but that I usually don't know what the hell I'm talking about. :hi:

[madrchsod]

5. bye.....

[bicentennial_baby]

6. whew!

[Coexist]

30. so then, he SHOULDN'T put her on the ticket, right?

[bicentennial_baby]

44. correct

[JVS]

7. Great, so let's not bother and put a good choice on instead.

[Cali_Democrat]

8. Thank gawd people like you will have to shape up or ship out soon

It will be about the GE and defeating McCain and we don't need Debbie Downers or concern trolls spouting their bullshit. Good riddance.

[cbayer]

21. What rule has she broken?

She's been here a long time. Take a look at the rules. She hasn't broken any of them.

[Cali_Democrat]

26. Not yet she hasn't

I have a feeling she won't be able to contain her hatred for Obama during the GE therefore resulting in a pizza delivery for Saracat.

Call it a hunch. :hi:

[LowerManhattanite]

And it IS hatred, make no mistake. n/t

[knixphan]

72. !

:applause:

[EFerrari]

9. Peace.

:rofl:

[Emit]

25. The irony of all this crap

leaves me speechless

I just watched the video of that racist Harriet Christian lady on Neil Cavuto's Faux News -- a clip from No Quarter no less, and Harriet said pretty much the same thing as this OPer. And for what? All that has gone down over the last 7, almost 8 years now under Bush & Co. and it has come to this? And of course Faux News plays on this extremist view -- fanning the flames of the 'saracats' to create even more divide -- to hype the extreme. And the OPer has the audacity to end this inane post with "...peace"? I am left not even being able to articulate a response directly to her under these circumstances. (so, you, then, sfexpat2000, get my little rant instead. Sorry 'bout that, lol -- :))

[EFerrari]

28. That's what friends are for.

:)

[Emit]

54. That video clip is here btw

with much discussion, in case you're interested: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=142200&mesg_id=142200

Thanks, sfexpat2000 :hi:

[LSparkle]

10. GREAT! So we DON'T have a reason to put her on the ticket!

FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY WE'RE FREE AT
LAST OF THE CLINTONS!!!!

[FrenchieCat]

13. Today is not about Hillary Clinton. GO Away!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXyqcx-mYY

[JuniperLea]

18. If Obama puts her on the ticket...

There will be a lot of sore losers around here.

[FrenchieCat]

24. Today is not about Hillary Clinton, and neither is this election.

period.

[JuniperLea]

45. It's about both candidates until there's a concession speech

Whether you like it or not. It's called American politics.

[FrenchieCat]

47. American politics is not about Hillary Clinton.

She really is not that important in the larger scheme of things.

This election is about the future, not about one woman.

[JuniperLea]

52. You miss the point

There are still two candidates, so it is still about the both of them until one bows out... the concession speech is the turning point, always has been, always will be. She has every right to try to keep herself in the limelight until the concession speech.

I beg to differ. She is very important in the larger scheme of things. She is the first viable female candidate for POTUS! That is historic in its own right! Her campaign will make it easier for other women to get into the mix. Whether you like it or not, Hillary's candidacy is every bit as historic as Obama's. He has said so himself.

[FrenchieCat]

56. There is no point, other than we have a winner and he will be representing

democrats during the General Election.

That is the only story worth talking about today.

We can talk about Hillary Clinton again some other day.

[JuniperLea]

86. What ever, Scarlet...

fiddle dee dee...


:eyes:

I see we can only speak of Hillary when you want to shove a hot sword up her ass. What ever.

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. So, if she never gives that speech

she has a right to set up a government in exile on Jan 20, '09.

The Speech is all.

[JuniperLea]

85. It's customary

She can't go past the convention. Jeez.

[saracat]

101. Nor is it just about one man. Especially not one whose name the looney fringe chant in line in 7-11!

[dionysus]

82. and detreich will cross the rhine with 3 divisions of hillary supporters...

:rofl:

[TBF]

46. I guess you missed the conference call, Frenchie. It's all about Hillary,

all of the time. Hillary for president. Hillary for vice president. Hillary for hard-working white people. Blah, blah, blah. They've probably already opened their Hillary45 forum to prepare for 2012.

:tinfoilhat:

[bhikkhu]

74. Sad to say, you are right

http://hillaryis45.com/

though it looks like they are still figuring out how to work the 'puter.

[apocalypsehow]

62. I know, I was hoping against hope that just for tonight they'd let us celebrate in peace, not try to

disrupt & divide. Looks like that was an unrealistic expectation.

:thumbsdown:

[cliffordu]

15. Well....tough shit.

[JackORoses]

16. if the only reason you supported Hillary was her gender, it was you who was being sexist

[kenny blankenship]

17. Bye bye then.

[Catherina]

20. Don't worry your pretty little head about it. It won't happen n/t

[Swamp Rat]

22. Good luck achieving economic parity and equal rights under a McCain administration.

[MrsT]

23. Aw jeeze, not you again.

Who is that SNL character who is always trying to bum everyone out?

[sandnsea]

27. This is history, do yourself a favor

and put your sour grapes over Edwards aside and celebrate the moment. You'll be sorry if you don't.

[EFerrari]

35. That's really good advice.

:applause:

[stillcool]

29. I agree! We need to register new democrats....

and let all of those who will not vote for Obama go. It's time to work to get our nominee elected in November.

[ecdab]

31. So unless Hillary won the election was an act of sexism?

That's what you are saying - right? Only making her first place works?

You certainly can not point to Obama running a sexist campaign, so what ever divide you see doesn't stem from him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. Peculiar thing is, she was an ardent Edwards supporter, first.

So it's not all about Hillary, or sexism.

It's about hating Obama, which is really sad.

I really liked Saracat when we were mutual Edwards supporters.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

102. She blames Obama because Edwards couldn't get any traction.

Of course, she's not about to admit it's because Obama did a better job of getting a grassroots and netroots organization going early on.

[saracat]

104. No. It is about "respect".

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. A) You weren't going to vote for him, anyway.

B) What does sexism in the MSM have to do with Obama himself?

[sniffa]

37. Because he controls the media

Just the last gasps of the lunatic dead-enders.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

39. Obama-Jazeera?

I knew it!

[sniffa]

40. Obama-Hussein-Jazeera

Get it right.

:D

[Starbucks Anarchist]

43. Praise Allah.

:D

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

34. Good, then there's no reason to put her on the ticket

Thanks for clearing that up precious.

[Hart2008]

Mondale lost the women's vote with Ferraro.

Adding Hillary to the ticket doesn't add anything either.

She has way too much baggage.

There are people who aren't thrilled about voting for Obama in November, and adding the Clinton dirty laundry would be a deal breaker for them.

[LowerManhattanite]

Keep stomping those sour grapes into Griefer Whine. Please. n/t

[slinkerwink]

38. your vote does count. Never think it doesn't.

[LowerManhattanite]

41. deleted

[cottonseed]

42. Sounds about right.

I think the Obama hate is so whipped up on the neo-Hillary side, they'd probably vote against her to spite him anyways.

[Spider Jerusalem]

48. So Hillary loses and sexism is to blame?

Nah, it can't be that she ran on 'inevitability' and had NO game plan post-Super Tuesday; it can't be that her campaign dismissed many states as 'irrelevant', basically conceding them to Obama; it can't be that she relied on loyalty over competence, mismanaged her campaign funds, and spent millions on advisers like Mark penn, who didn't even understand the mechanics of Democratic primaries. No, it can't be that at all. nothing is ever Hillary's fault. :eyes:

[4themind]

50. That's ok the rest of us will show you the way

the way out of iraq
the way towards sound energy conservation and investment strategies
the way away from a conservative domination of the courts for 15+ years
the way towards more affordable health care than we have right now
the way towards open and accountable govement with a campaign which was funded by a higher number of non-lobbyists than ever before
the way towards what I think MOST progressives at least want to seem some progress towards

and if you don't like THAT you can be shown the way out to canada perhaps with the metaphorical cat-tail between your legs.

[bjnumb9]

51. Take your non (D) aka (R) vote in Nov. '08 and shove it up your ass

Piss off

[Nia Zuri]

53. Whatever

[americanstranger]

55. We. Do. Not. Want. Her. As. Vice. President.

She's starring in an RNC-released video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UxDLKUeoJm0

We don't need that. We don't want that.

- as

[bjnumb9]

61. Ohhhhh shit, it's all coming back to me now that I watched that video

Dream ticket my ass. Let her run with McCain, so they can combine their lifetimes of experience.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

118. There's a long time DU bashing Obama in the youtube comments. Nice. nt

[tammywammy]

57. What if the VP is Edwards?

[cags]

58. My Hubby will vote for Obama with Hillary as VP. Without his vote goes to McCain

[sniffa]

60. My uncle will vote for Obama with Liebermann as VP. Without his vote goes to McCain

[bjnumb9]

63. that means your hubby is a dipshit

[demo dutch]

103. eh ... I believe it's the uncle, not the hubby

[WritingIsMyReligion]

59. "THose who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the people doing it."

I dunno who said that, but I think you should read it a few times. ;)

[AZBlue]

64. So you don't support the Democratic nominee? Why are you still lhere?

[hokies4ever]

"Just want to make that point while you all are celebrating."

Tells us all we need to know about you. :rofl:

[PassingFair]

65. The division in the party isn't about "sexism"...

It's about the Iraq War, and about the DLC,
which supported it and OTHER corporate
RIP-OFFS.

We have WON.

Hopefully, Mr. Obama will not let us down.

[bhikkhu]

66. I recall that you were an Edwards fan

...so is HRC not winning just another reason to hate Obama, which is the one position you seem to have taken consistently?

[AtomicKitten]

67. No worries -- We don't need her -- We don't want her.

Done and done.

[saracat]

100. Thanks. I knew you folks didn't want our vote. it is a pleasure to see you being

honest about it. Perhaps this makes it clearer as to why some of us don't want to vote for BO. You don't want us to!

[AtomicKitten]

107. It isn't my job nor Barack's job to herd cats.

That decision is entirely yours to make and it is not up to me nor any other Democrat to coddle and cajole. Either pull up your socks and get on board with the Democratic nominee ... or don't.

[saracat]

108. Actually, if you are a party officer , candidate or PC,It is about herding cats

and has often been referred to in just that way.But I guess you are unaware of those aspects of campaigning, probably never having done it.

[AtomicKitten]

109. No, that isn't my job. My job, in fact, is GOTV in swing states ftr.

[saracat]

110. oo GOTV. Then you ARE herding cats. Or you should be!

[AtomicKitten]

112. No, in fact and to be precise, it's statistics and organization.

You're going to have to put on your big girl panties and decide for yourself.

[saracat]

117. And what are you gonna do when you identify "persuadables" And what about

the universe of Dem leaners and 4 by 4's? What about the universe of non votimg Dems? What are you going to do to "convince" them and get their vote? It is herding cats, particularly on election day and before for those that have VBM. Identifying voters is one thing, getting them to vote is another.I can decide for myself but many need a push.And they often don't get to the polls or to inking a ballot by themselves.That is what GOTV is really about.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. We Don't Need The Fringe Zealots. Please Understand That.

Putting Clinton on the ticket ensures EXPONENTIALLY more support for the ticket by bringing them together than the fringe loonies we'd lose from Obama who would put their noses up in the air and say "Hell with Obama now! I don't BELIEVE he chose her!" or the fringe loonies on the other side that would say "No WAY I vote for Obama! Hillary should have the top spot! I'm voting McCain!" etc etc.

There is NO answer that will bring EVERYONE together. We must simply minimize the loss. A combined ticket will do that, period. The offset of the fringe loonies on each side that will be soured is minimal compared to what we'd gain. So to hell with 'em!

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. You're delusional.

Hillary on the ticket loses us far more than she would gain. Among other things, it would lose Obama his credibility - as she represents everything in the party that he has been working against. Corporate influence. Lobbyists. DLC "third way" of beating republicans by adopting their positions. Closed government. Cronyism.

By not having her on the ticket we lose only one fringe of crazies. WITH her we lost both fringes and most of the independents, as well.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. ROFLMAO

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6250276&mesg_id=6251342

[dionysus]

98. You Think You Are Clever But You Really Are Just A

[PermanentRevolution]

69. I'm truly sorry you feel that way, saracat

It's a sad thing when any voter becomes disillusioned by the actions of their peers and party, and it's certainly nothing that anyone on here should celebrate.

I know there's probably nothing, at this point, that can be said to remedy the slights you perceive, and I'm not going to make an argument to try and sway your opinion. I don't know nearly as much as you do about those values you hold dear or the core tenets of your convictions. If you feel irreparably separated from Obama and the Democratic Party by the actions of this primary, that's your decision to make as an American and a free-thinking individual.

But I'd ask you to consider one thing. Don't close your mind to the possibility, however remote, that you may yet change your opinion. Stay involved and aware and, come election day, make your choice as objectively and rationally as you can according to those criteria that matter most to you. So long as you do that, I don't believe anyone has any place to object.

[Starry Messenger]

70. Yuk

Harriet is that you?

[mainer]

71. She'll make us lose any GOP crossovers

Lots of Republicans I know are willing to vote Obama, but not for Hillary. They'll stay home that day.

How can Obama run as the "change" candidate when she's on the ticket?

[ShortnFiery]

73. I agree that she's not fit for VP. Also, "a Clinton" will bring out the GOP out of the woodwork.

Nothing mobilizes *hate* in the GOP more than having "a Clinton" on the Presidential Ticket. Now that we've experienced a brutal primary, I can't help but think some of the resentments toward "the Clintons" are not fabricated. :shrug:

Both Clintons are brutal *Machiavellian* campaigners.
If that's what ya like (Winning is EVERYTHING.) They're the ticket.

[Tatiana]

75. We know. Which is why Obama isn't going to pick her as VP.

As Rachel Maddow said, she can't deliver her voters.

[Window]

76. As you said, "Whatever."

But, do you mind if we celebrate a little in peace.

[dionysus]

79. welll.... bye

[tnlefty]

80. Well Obama and Hillary were always the bottom 2 choices for me.

But, I have to ask what you think will happen with a vote that helps to get McSame the keys to the WH?

Will he:
fight against poverty - nope
end the occupation of Iraq - nope
ensure rights for women - nope
ensure health care for Americans - nope
address inequalities in our society - nope
stop the shredding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights - nope
appoint rwing judges that will ensure women will become 2nd class citizens - yep...

Is the presumptive nominee perfect? No, but McSame just isn't an option for me.

Peace.

[sendero]

81. who cares?

He's not going to do it anyway.

Vote for McCain or whatever, who the fuck cares you whiny baby.

Nothing was "done" to HRC, she did it to herself.

[TexasObserver]

84. You're the rarity in that regard, not the rule.

We've all heard you don't like Obama. For you it was Edwards or nothing. Every post you make is the same, lamenting Obama and how he doesn't meet your bizarre requirements. If you're not going to support the ticket, I hope you'll have the decency to stop posting in this forum or talking about Obama further in that consistently Republican manner.

[barack the house]

87. That's fine then I much prefer Sebelius for VP, she's very progressive. Take care.

[mike_c]

89. if a vote for Obama = a vote for HRC, I won't vote dem....

Period. Sen Clinton is on the wrong side of just about every issue that defines this election for me. I wouldn't voter for her for city council on the strength of her war enabling alone. If she's on the ticket, I'll vote with my feet. It won't be the first time, probably won't be the last.

[CaptJasHook]

90. I feel sorry for you, Saracat. I hope we will see you in the general fighting as

hard for the Democratic party as you did for Edwards.

And I hope you can move beyond this.

[bunnies]

92. Good. No reason to have her as VP then.

:bounce:

[thewiseguy]

93. ByeBye troll.

[dionysus]

96. she's not a troll. she hates obamas guts because she perceives he stole edwards' spot on the ticket

she's hated obama ever since john dropped out.

[saracat]

97. Actually, I disliked Obama way earlier than that.

[shaniqua6392]

115. You have been here a few months....

Saracat has been here for 5 years. Watch who you are calling a troll because the odds are more likely that you are one. Troll has completely lost its meaning being thrown around the way it has by the unity crowd. Anyone you disagree with is a troll. Boring.

[saltpoint]

94. Dumb post, and completely off-base.

It was NEVER about "sexism" -- not ever. It may be the grocery bag you have over YOUR face, but that's not what happened in real time.

It was about Senator Clinton losing a huge lead, a huge pile of money, huge advantage, and huge organization chance to win early and win big, and arrogantly thinking it was in the bag after Feb. 5th, not even bothering to PLAN for contests after that date, and then spending the rest of the primary calendar race-baiting another Democrat and praising McCain at the expense of that Democrat, to list just two of many transgressions.

No one cares how you vote, saracat. Your judgment is less than compelling in politics to begin with and snottiness doesn't help it. Don't be such a sore loser.

[saracat]

122. .I can certainly address your last comments right back at you OC..

[saltpoint]

129. Well go right ahead. We can take any point you want. In this thread

or the other dozens of threads in which DU posters have taken issue with your position and you refused to respond to those points.

So name the time. I'm game.

[Phx_Dem]

95. Well, okay then.

Why don't you scoot off to the Republican discussion forum and leave us to celebrate our historic night?

[SoxFan]

99. tick...tick...tick...

[donheld]

105. Putting Clinton on the ticket will make many NOT vote Obama

[saracat]

121. That may be true as well! !

[Imagevision]

111. Hillary stated she would back the prez nominee, that's all she has to do, she doesn't HAVE to be the

VP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mokawanis]

116. Of all the crap I'v heard

during the primaries the idea that anyone who supported Clinton will not vote for Obama if he doesn't choose her as VP is the looniest, most selfish and stupid thing going. How you can get from voting for Clinton to voting for John McSame is beyond me. Shame on anyone who does something that insanely stupid.

(Edit: Meant this to go at the bottom of the page and obviously am not commenting about the poster above me.)

[newmajority]

113. There is one pizza delivery that I'm really looking forward to

[Bread and Circus]

114. The OP sounds sexist to me. As far as I know the vast majorit y of Obama

supporters are going for him in terms of character and vision. It seems like your OP suggests that there is some notion that unless a women is in the dominant position, it's not good enough. Well, to me that seems pretty damn sexist. Hillary lost for a lot of reasons, most of them were mistakes she made (IWR vote, bad campaign strategy), not because of her gender.

Many of us Obama supporters would be very happy to vote for a woman for President, just not Hillary Clinton.

[saracat]

119. Hey , I didn't originally support Hillary and for many of the reasons you mention

but I came to respect her for being a "fighter" and how she took all the blows aimed at her.It isn't her gender for me but a choice between the last two, neither of whom thrill me.And I consider Hillary the better choice. The more I learn of Obama and his connections and his behind the scenes shenanigans , the less I like him. I didn't always dislike him just as I used to not like Hillary but she proved herself to me.Obama did not. But in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. It is what it is. And it isn't my problem.

[RichardRay]

120. I certainly agree that putting Clinton on the ticket won't get

your vote; you make that abundantly clear. What leads you to believe that any substantial number of other women share your feelings? I know there are some, they've made themselves fairly evident in the last few days and weeks, but I don't see a groundswell of opprobrium towards Obama from women as a class. So, while I certainly wouldn't try to deny you your own feelings, I think you're out of line in ascribing your perception to the rest of the party. Now if you continue your drumbeat and gather more and more people to your side you may be able to change that. Are you certain you want to do that?

Is your grandfather still alive? The one who nominated FDR? I'd like to know how he feels about the question. If he's not, how do you think he'd feel about your choices?

[saracat]

124. No he isn't but as he authored legislation opposing censorship, I believe he would defend my

right to have my own opinion. I see the "groundswell" everyday. I personally know many women who have actually left the party over this. There are several in my own precinct.I know many of the Hillary Delegates who are not happy about this. I personally know several very large party donors who have "pulled" their money from the DNC. One actually forced Dean to "return" her money. And I was actually surprised. He did it. Not all of it but most.There are a lot more furious folks than some may think. BTW, I am not necessarily "endorsing" this view. I care about the down ticket.I just say I "see" it.I know many Hillary folks do not want Hillary to be VP. So maybe there is common ground for different reasons. All I was saying is I do not think that would patch things up.

[RichardRay]

126. OK, I can see that...

Picking Senator Clinton for the VP slot as some sort of a sop isn't going to fix anything. Picking her because she'd be a powerful running mate could, but there are probably still some folks (mostly women?) for whom that's not going to do it either.

A few weeks ago when the 'Clinton for VP' meme started to surface I suggested that the best answer might be to offer her the job (sign of respect), have her turn it down (sign of her stature) and then take her recommendation as to who should have it instead (as a way to have her input valued). All in all it's going to be tricky for the Obama campaign to find a way to signal respect while also avoiding seeming to pander.

As to your granddad, I'm sure you're right about his not wanting to coerce your opinion. My thought was only that if he was a strong and involved Democrat so as to be picked to put FDR's name into nomination he would also have a very strong party loyalty. I know you find 'machine' politics pretty execrable, but one person's 'machine' is another person's 'organization'. I was wondering where you thought your grandfather might come down on that topic.

[saracat]

127. I have to giggle a bit at this because the word for him would have been

"pragmatist" and from the wheeling and dealing he did, I doubt "machine politics would have bothered him. Politics were a tad different back then. He wasn't suffciently "loyal" to be either FDR"s Lt. Gov when asked or Ambassador to the Court of St. James. he turned down both positions as not "paying enough". he had a different set of prorities. he used to boast he could do more with one phone call than armies of congressmen and I am sure he was right! He used to bribe high placed officials. My grandmother had a "hollow " heel in her pump and they would put the money in it, pretending she had stumbled and broken the show. The ever courteous official would take it away for "repair" and return it fixed but empty! No. I don't think he was really idealistic. BTW. He was famous for his concern for what was then called "the black vote" Eleanor even wrote about his concern in her column. Seems they thought he paid too much attention to it! He must be laughing now!

[RichardRay]

128. My kinda guy...

I've worked with guys like your grandfather; they fall into the category of 'sure he's a junkyard dog, but he's our junkyard dog'.

When my dad was involved in leading a stike in the early 50's the owners brought in strikebreakers. They played pretty rough; I have a vivid recollection of seeing my father come home from the picket line beaten up more than once. There was a group of women who followed the strikebreakers around and, frankly, entrapped them, getting them arrested and kicked out of town.

Different rules in different times...

[cali]

123. I hope you're around here for President Obama's inauguration

you are so going to choke on it.

[saracat]

125. Nah. I won't. Should that happen, I will have lots of down ticket races I can celebrate!

I don't have to care about who wins the Prez.It won't be my problem or my interest! :hi:

[rucky]

130. Peace.