Constructive criticism of Dem strategy considered harmful?

[gulliver]

We're not saying constructive criticism is worthless or harmful are we? If so, I disagree. I would appreciate it if anyone who thinks constructive criticism of Democratic political strategy would say so and then explain that position.

I think of DU as an open think tank. I hate to see constructive thought suppressed in the name of ... what? Someone tell me.

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. dare not attack kerry, or suggest that dean would have been better.

for you will be smote, and forced back in line.

it happened to me.

[gulliver]

2. That's not constructive.

I'm talking about constructive.

[UpsideDownFlag]

3. i was being sarcastic about 'attack'.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UpsideDownFlag]

5. my jibjab name is from Mr T's catchphrase

quit yo JibbaJabba.

[shindig]

7. o, ok, sorry

never mind, then. Explain yourself about this "attacking" Kerry and how you feel it should be condoned during an election between Kerry and the giggling murderer?

[UpsideDownFlag]

8. *sigh*

i was being sarcastic. my point was, lately a trend has developed where if you show dissatisfaction with any of kerry's policies, then you are flamed. I support ABB- that doesn't mean Kerry was my first choice.

[shindig]

14. wasn't mine either...

But he's grown on me. I've checked his record and his life history and he's pretty damn impressive.

And even more importantly, I've watched him handle himself throughout this process. He's doing pretty well. His convention speech was excellent. He seems like a man with potential to grow, still, even at what is he age 60?

But sometimes he seems like he's getting behind the curve. Maybe he likes it that way. Makes me kind of nervous. He's up against the great beast of our time, the Bush machine. He needs all the help he can get.

[UpsideDownFlag]

15. this is true.

it would be nice if Kerry would repay dean for the energy that he has given to the party.

[UpsideDownFlag]

9. Furthermore, a broader goal of "the team" should be moving the dems

to the left. which i (and i dont think im alone) felt that dean or kucinich could have done better. we'll see how kerry does.

[shindig]

17. beat Bush, Kucinich

I don't think so man, sorry. It's academic though. We need Kerry now. We don't want Bush to pick O'Connor, Rehnquist and Steven's replacements do we?

[chuck555]

26. Oh Please!

We had primaries and Kerry won almost all of them. A candidate needs to win the party first and then the general. 200 +60 delegates aint no energy.

[John_H]

22. Suggesting Dean would do better is your perogative and wrong.

[Guaranteed]

38. Saying we'd be better with Dean certainly isn't constructive, for

the time being, but it's also a legitimate criticism. Although one can only say it so many times. We have to deal with what we have now.

[AmerDem]

6. Give it a rest and get off your soap box!

You arm chair strategists are fucking annoying I mean truly fucking annoying! Do you literally feel you have some profound gift that you can downgrade the performance of the people leading Kerry?

Considering I am truly worried that this Nazi fuck might be appointed for another 4 years I will take ALL the advice from a real democratic strategist over some nitwit pretender trying to feel proud about himself and would shit himself if having half the real life judgments Kerry and his team have to make. If you feel this is "suppression of your constructive thought" too bad. I see it more as your inflated ego getting in the way of me reading posts that are beneficial to the direction of our country.

[shindig]

11. I agree and I disagree

If the person's panicking, whining, longing for a new candidate, things like that, then I echo your sentiment completely.

However, if you believe that the "rank and file," assuming they are completely on board and want to win just as much as you do, shouldn't be allowed to put in their two cents, then I strongly disagree with you, and I think you do Mr. Kerry a disservice.

I believe Mr. Kerry likes input. I saw him shake a man's hand on C-span. That man said to Kerry, you're doing it! I got goosebumps when Kerry said back to him, no YOU'RE doing it.

Kerry is holding his own. This long fight to beat the reckless, radical, and neglectful right-wing neocons ain't over yet though.

Suggestions on posts that anyone, anywhere, can read and perhaps spark an idea from should be welcomed, not discouraged, if made with legitimate intention, naturally.

[AmerDem]

16. of course people have the right to speak up

but when you have a bunch arm chair strategist that think they have all the answers it gets old. It's here constantly! If that energy were instead channeled into something positive then everyone would be better off. look at the picture here, we have on 1 hand a person that is by profession a strategist who is providing detailed information he knows are things to focus on. Then on the other hand you have people poo pooing some of those details or others distracting the conversation and going off about their voice being stepped on! I mean come on, get real here.

[shindig]

20. yup

It ain't pretty. This is a tough election. You got 1/2 the country thinks Bush is God. They think he's god, man. Figuring out how to overcome despite that extremely deranged notion ain't easy.

[Crunchy Frog]

44. If it upsets you that much

remember, the Hide Thread feature is your friend.:) Then you might be better able to channel your own energy more effectively rather than getting caught up with your anger at messages on a discussion board.

One thing about discussion boards, you will find alot of things on them that make you angry. Please don't let this fact distract your focus from the real job of defeating Bush.

[Pastiche423]

19. Goose step much?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kanary]

32. Got a few control issues going there, do ya?

On the forum listings, after the subject line of the thread, there's a little box with an "x" in it.

Click it, and save yourself (and us) some aggravation.

Thank you.

Kanary

[AmerDem]

41. Why would I do that?

I would much rather show these chicken little shits of our party for what they are.

[Kanary]

47. control issues and judgements befitting a fundie

potty trained at gunpoint, were ya?

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

10. imagine you're in a burning building

A fireman comes in and says, "this way out".

But one of your cohorts says, "no, this way." Another says, "I don't like that way, there's too much smoke". Pretty soon everyone is "discussing" the best way out, *but nobody is moving*.

The fireman leaves.

Sometimes it just seems...unhelpful.

[Democat]

18. The Democratic Party is not a fireman - they lost the last two elections

Fool me once, shame on you.

You know the rest.

[borat sagdiyev]

12. those who don't want constructive criticism

are frightened out of their wits at the thought of moving left.
Just check out the history of the people telling everyone to get in line, they have been consistent at trying to prevent progessive ideas.

[AmerDem]

13. really?

show it! link to your profound statement!

[Old and In the Way]

24. I wouldn't hold my breath.

The "really left" people seem to be more concerned that Kerry cater to their needs instead of getting elected President. It's OK to lose the GE, as long as our candidate makes them feel happy.

Dimson campaigned as a moderate in 2000 and governed as a far right ideologue. You'd think that people on the "left" would cut Kerry the same slack.

I can't even believe there are Democrats here who feel compelled to pick Kerry nits, given what weve been through in the past 3.5 years. Kerry will be a great progressive/liberal President (the success of his agenda, of course, will be a function of who control's Congress), but for some, it will never be good enough...

[Pastiche423]

27. Not every DUer is a Democrat

Quite a number of us are Independents.

[Old and In the Way]

28. True...and a few are Republicans, too.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

34. Not to my knowledge

[realisticphish]

21. i am of two minds

on the one hand, i do think that the primaries are over, so lets stop discussing who would have been better. i would've liked kucinich; i know there is no way he would have gotten elected, so then i would like dean. he didn't win the primaries. so this is it. we have Kerry, and though he may be imperfect, he is a decent liberal with a good record, so i have no problem supporting him.

but on the other hand, i also think that people should be open to criticism. HOWEVER; there has been a tendency among those who criticise Kerry to do just that, and offer no alternatives. By all means, express your displeasure, but also realise that doing anything but fully constructive criticism is damaging to us (though on DU, i think its safe to say that no one's gonna vote bush).

for myself, i think that this election is of incredible importance. we MUST get bush out, and john kerry is the guy we have to do it with. so though i have misgivings, and would have preferred others, i will support and defend kerry until november third. then the kid gloves come off, and i really hope he remembers the non-moderates who helped put him there, or hes gonna get a suprise.

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[shindig]

25. I'm sure he does

He gave tribute to everyone at the convention, remember? He made sure he mentioned all his former opponents names. They are all on board now. They all know Bush goes against nature. They all know he's a dangerous man. They all know he needs to be stopped. It's the megolmania, stupid! lol.

Four things have been getting on my nerves here.

1. The people who get frustrated with Kerry and start bringing up the other candidates from the primaries, like as a punishment. That really is annoying. There's no way to know whether another candidate would be doing better or worse anyway. That I told you so stuff on these boards is bad news.

2. People who come here and attack Kerry in a way that makes it seem like they don't care whether Kerry or Bush wins. Sort of relates to number one. I guess you call it sourgrapes syndrome gone amuck.

3. People who think Kerry has already wrapped this thing up. Or they can't bear the thought that he might not have it wrapped up, so they lash out at anyone who makes constructive criticism about the campaign. It's like you're bursting their bubble or something. And they go nuts. As if delusional thinking ever got anyone any place. Gorup think is how shuttles wind up exploding. Not good! I guess this kind of relates to number four, below.

4. The people here who state reasons why Bush is an idiot and Kerry is qualified, as if it doesn't matter whether people who are not reading DU articles and boards don't need convincing. Like it doesn't matter what THEY think, when the truth is, it does matter. The election is won by convincing them, not us. We already know.

[realisticphish]

31. yeah

i am very glad he mentioned all of them at the convention. and i do think he will carry (or kerry *rimshot*) through with what he has promised. i just hope nothing happens that we might feel betrayed.

and those 4 points all make perfect sense. the only one i might disagree with is the last one; after all, this stuff is also for use in convincing OTHER people, ammunition of a sort. Plus, it's jsut funny to read about * being an idiot:)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[shindig]

39. sorry, didn't mean it that way

I get so much news and ammunition at DU.

What i meant was when someone starts a thread about the latest republican smear or so-called accusation against Kerry, then like the whole thread will be people just dimissing it. Like they will be all logical and stuff. How can a man with a record like Bush beat John Kerry?

And that worries me. And that worries me when everyone starts talking in the thread like that. Simply dismissing republican shit that Rush Limbaugh is on a thousand radio stations, three hours a day, harping on, and all the national media is talking about, scares me.

I'm like I'd rather see people bitchin and moaning a little, like what are we going to about this? How are we going to fight back? How can we turn the tables? Not just sitting here, all of us assuring each other, like Mr. Spock would by repeating to each other, "it is higly illogical" for Bush to beat Kerry.

Because while we're doing that, Limbaugh is talking to millions and millions of people, three hours a day, five days a week, killing himself to turn Kerry into a "loser" and a "cartoon character," the devil incarnate.

[realisticphish]

46. i see your point

just assuming that people aren't stupid is a very dangerous tactic to take. the problem is, the people who actively listen to this stuff are pretty much set in stone. rush could be caught snorting cocain off a male prostitute's ass in the Communist party headquarters, and the people listening wouldn't care. simlarly, they don't give a shit when what he, or boortz, or others say is disproved. i agree that this stuff needs to be taken seriously, but we should pick our thrusts carefully (i know you were not just referring to RW talk radio, im just generalizing). we just need to keep soldiering on, and trying to open the eyes of the people who aren't dittoheads or freepers, but just honest people who still trust the media

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[NWHarkness]

23. Constructive criticism is fine

But constant "Kerry is blowing it!" threads are not constructive criticism, they are defeatism.

[shindig]

30. or the one...

I saw someone here write today, If Kerry said that, then he is unfit to be president.

That's a real helpful way to beat Bush, isn't it? lol

"Kerry is blowing it!"

Agreed! That is defeatist and has that my way or the highway sound. Like I'm outta here. Don't associate me with Kerry in any way, cause he's blowing it. lol

I guess everyone is different. I was so gung-ho about Clark in the primary. I was mad at him the night he dropped out. But it lasted a few days and then I moved on.

I'm a member of the party. I fought against Kerry with all my might. I lost. My party picked another candidate through a process.(The process sucked, but I won't go into that lol)

I'm still a member of my party. I always want my party to do better.

[Kanary]

33. In your opinion. It's fine for you to have your opinion. It's also fine

for others to have theirs.

And some are damned anxious, and worried, and need to blow off steam.

If it really upsets you, there is a little box with an "x" in it next to the subject line. It will save you a lot of aggravation.

Kanary

[shindig]

35. well it upsets me yes,

but then i get over it. I don't hit the x button here. I hit the remote control button when I watch CNN, MSNBC or Fox though. Those places really upset me way more than anything I read here.

Here, I have friends. Here there are normal people. This place, and a few others, remind me that I'm not alone in Bush World.

[Kanary]

36. I was replying to the person who is taking it upon him/herself to decide

what others should and should not post.

They need to either take it up with the admins and get topics placed off-limits, or hit the "x" button, or accept that others are coming from a different place, and are just as legitimate and just as valuable as s/he is.

This constant trying to control others is not only tiresome, but juvenile and unproductive.

Kanary

[shindig]

40. sorry, again.

Getting a little opinionated tonight on the board. hehe, imagine that here!?!?! Just thought you were referring to me. Kind of glad you weren't now! :)

[NWHarkness]

45. You want to blow off steam?

How about grabbing some campaign lit and blowing off steam by walking your neighborhood and rallying your precinct to Kerry?

[flaminbats]

37. If people listen and think, it can be constructive...

if people simply parrot and follow it..it is destructive...des-truc-ti-ve :nuke:

[union_maid]

43. Constructive isn't harmful

Attacking Kerry is harmful. Joining a chorus that picks apart his every statement is harmful. Playing into Karl Rove's hands by picking up the talking points he's set up is harmful. Certainly wishing for a candidate who did not win the primaries is futile and silly. Wishing for an America, which could support such a candidate would be more to the point anyway, if you really believe that Kerry is in any way to the right of Dean, which he isn't.

Contstructive criticism isn't harmful, of course, but when someone who seems to actually be from the campaign appears here, I'd rather pick his/her brain than read pages and pages of the same stuff that's in all the other threads. Presumably this person has read through a lot of that already and has the opportunity to do so at any time.