Honest question: Please, no flamage.

[Texasgal]

I have an honest question.

Why is Obama being vilified for what a visiting pastor said at his church?

Please, honest answers only. The outrage is confusing me.

Thanks.

[polichick]

1. It's all they've got.

[Andy823]

24. You got it!

I see republicans all over trying to attack Obama for "anything" they can find. They don't build up McCain, they don't show how McCain is better than Oama, they don't show the "strengths" McCain has, nope all they can do is go after Obama and crap like this. As you said, it's all the got!

[polichick]

25. Yep, pretty soon they'll be calling him a poopy head! :)

[grantcart]

2. Because his barber refused comment

[baldguy]

3. Because there's nothing else to vilify about him.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Guilt by association. A logical fallacy... but it works. nt

[mckeown1128]

9. It does work... mainly on those without a strong college education..

Which I think explains polling. Those who don't go to college don't usually get the opportunity to learn the rules of logic or other analytical techniques.

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. Common sense outweighs higher ed. here, I'm thinking.

>>>>Which I think explains polling. Those who don't go to college don't usually get the opportunity to learn the rules of logic or other analytical techniques.>>>>

Point taken.... but folks don't have to study logic in order to use it. Electricians use logic. How can a mechanic diagnose an exhaust sytem problem except thru logic and reasoning?

A car may have both a flat tire and a dead battery. Doesn't take a genius ... or an advanced degree... to discern that one and not the other accounts for the failure of the engine to start.

[mckeown1128]

18. I never meant to say that only college grads have better analytical

skills. Some do and some definitely don't. Just like high school drop outs. Some have strong analytical skills and some don't.


I was just suggesting that the percentages differ. College grads will be much more likely to have those skills then an 8th grade drop out.

[Cha]

59. It works on LIV voters who hilary

freakin' Thrives on.

[hokies4ever]

5. Race controversies are all the rage

Good for ratings.

[AlCzervik]

6. Because 2 horribly managed wars, a sinking economy and the shredding of the Constitution aren't

newsworthy.

[islandmkl]

7. you ought to hear the shit that guy that lives two blocks over from Barack and Michelle says...

and HE'S THEIR ALMOST-NEXT-DOOR-NEIGHBOR!!

They obviously choose to surround themselves with such people...it is SO OBVIOUS!!

DON'T YOU SEE??

WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO WAKE YOU PEOPLE UP??

...next up, that kid that mows their lawn...wait till you hear what HE does...

[aikoaiko]

8. Its kind of guilt by association thing

Obama once publicly embraced the church.

The leader of the church, Wright, has some wackadoo moments.

Obama distanced himself from that leader and church, somewhat.

Some people wonder if Obamaa was just being political or genuine.

This visiting priest makes some people be suspicious of this church again and those who embrace it.

Its really just stupidity on the priest's and media's part.

[cbayer]

10. It's a non-issue in general.

I have had NPR on all day and haven't heard a single word from them. It's only in places like gd:p that this becomes a flame war.

[sniffa]

17. Ah, then you must have heard them talk about Oprah

She never should have endorsed Obama - it's killing her ratings, magazine sales and her popularity.

Also, we'll dish on Jennifer Hudson's role in Sex In The City and hear from our entertainment guru, Allison Samuels of Newsweek magazine.

[cbayer]

20. Must have missed the Oprah story

Heard way too much about Sex In the City.

But nothing about any pastors or Clinton's drinking problem or who might have gotten tombstoned at DU.

Could care less about any of them.

[Yael]

11. Desperation

[JimGinPA]

13. What She Said

B-)

[Yael]

22. Lemming.

:D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Manufactured "issues" sell lots of beer and toothpaste on the media.

Discussion of real issues bore the hell out of most watchers of American media.

[Ravy]

14. Because people are known by the company that they keep.

If one of our candidates had been a member of the Masons for 20 years, that might be a basis for forming some sort of opinion about them, pro or con. Same with the KKK, the ACLU, the Anti-Defamation League, PETA, the John Birch society, or any host of other organizations that take stands on issues and influence a person's point of view.

[Texasgal]

19. To me.. that makes

not one ounce of sense.

This guy was a VISITING Pastor. How can Obama personally be held responsible?

[Ravy]

28. Well, he was a "friend" of the church, at least, that is how he was introduced...

.. which typically means that there has been some sort of relationship. The congregation did not boo him as being in general disagreement with what he was saying, quite the contrary.

If the local VFW would invite Donald Rumsfeld to come speak to them, then applauded his applause lines, you would probably think that the members of the local VFW generally thought along the same lines as Donald Rumsfeld.

[Texasgal]

31. In that case i have a "relationship"

with my postman.

i have known him for years, I give him a card a Christmas and on Easter. He's a nice guy. I am not sure what his religious/political leanings are... I have never asked. But he is an acquaintance. I guess if he becomes part of some weird sect or some weird group I am agreeable with it or part of it?

Do I have that right?

[Ravy]

49. No. You have little choice over who your postman is...

but if you contribute to, and attend republican meetings, and belong to the republican party I will assume your heart is with the republicans. I will assume that whomever the republicans choose to come speak to their meetings, if they are wildly applauded by your fellow republicans, is speaking about subjects that are appealing to the republicans.

So, if David Duke gets invited to be the keynote speaker at the republican national convention and brings the house down, I will probably think that John McCain should be criticized a bit for being part of that group. I look forward to the many arguments I will undoubtably have with Obama supporters at that time, who will claim there is no connection between such a keynote speaker and the membership that invites/applauds them.

[Texasgal]

53. apples to oranges

None of these pastors are being invited to speak at conventions.

Also... who is wildly supporting what was said? I've seen nothing but disdain over the pastors words.

[Ravy]

56. Then you haven't seen the video. nt

[Texasgal]

60. Okay.

So the 100 or so people in the church make up the millions of Obama support?

[Ravy]

65. I think the church actually holds thousands...

and I am not painting the Obama camp with those words. As you say, most have denounced them, and Obama has denounced them.

But the OP wanted to know if you could justifiably draw any conclusions about anyone who joined, contributed and associated themselves for 20 years with the people who sponsored (by inviting the pastor) and applauded the words. At least, that is the way I understood his question.

[Texasgal]

67. I cannot in good faith

Pin the words of a visting pastor on Obama. I am sorry I just can't.

I have tried to look at it at different angles and all I can come up with with is that people in general do not like what he said.

Heck! I don't like what he said!

He dosen't represent me and I honestly believe that Obama feels the same way...

[Ravy]

74. I am not saying it is entirely fair. Stereotypes rarely are.

But they exist, and candidates would do well to steer clear of the negative ones.

People see the members of the church clapping and yelling in support, and get the impresson, rightly or wrongly, that had Obama been in attendence, his family would be doing so along with everyone else in the church.

[salguine]

15. 'Cause they have nothing else to hit him with.

[Arkansas Granny]

21. Obama and Pfleger have had a long standing relationship and there have apparently

been questions raised before about earmarks awarded to Pfleger's church and donations made to Pfleger to Obama's campaign.

"It happens that there were major supporters in my district who had been supporters before they got member initiatives," Obama said, noting that some of his contributors had been his allies for years.

One of those long-time supporters was Rev. Michael Pfleger, the politically active leader of St. Sabina Church. He gave Obama's campaign $1,500 between 1995 and 2001, including $200 in April 2001, about three months after Obama announced $225,000 in grants to St. Sabina programs.

Pfleger said he made those donations personally, not on behalf of the church or to win grants.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0705030035may03,0,7803217.story

[Texasgal]

23. So?

Does that make Obama personally responsible for what he said?

[joeybee12]

34. Then I guess no one should have said anything about Ferrarro's comments...

...according to that logic you're espousing here.

[Texasgal]

35. If you don't mimd

You are welcome to search my posts.

I have never said anything about Ferraro.

The " your side did it too" argument dosen't get us anywhere.

[joeybee12]

39. I didn't say you did...but what you're saying is that this shouldn't be an issue

just because of the association, which I believe is a pretty strong tie...and I'm pointing out where your reasoning is going, even if you didn't say anything...I hardly think my response is simply a "your side did it, too" sort of thing. I don't agree with the way people responded to what Ferraro said, but because of her proximity to the Hilary campaign, talking about it was fair game, again, even if I thought she got a raw deal.

[Texasgal]

41. It shouldn't be an issue.

What other people say has no bearing on how our candidates really feel.

I find this whole thing to be silly. I mean, here we are... it's MAY. We only have so many months to beat the GOP in November and we are sitting around freaking out about what a visiting pastor said at a church that he hasn't attended in months???

Do you see where I am coming from?

[Arkansas Granny]

45. No, but since they have had a longstanding relationship it makes some

people examine Father Pfleger's remarks more closely. That and the fact that the sermon which contained these remarks was delivered in the church that Obama has attended for many years provides a link that might not otherwise be made.

[Texasgal]

54. what type of "relationship"

is off limits then?

[Arkansas Granny]

64. I'm really not sure what you're asking here.

[Texasgal]

66. Sorry... I am just trying to understand

What type of relationship can ANY candidate have and not be ridiculed for it?

[RazBerryBeret]

26. you're right...

it makes no sense at all...

but did it make you laugh? I thought he was pretty funny, but odd for a pastor. see if it had been Jay Leno, David Letterman or a comedian, it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.
I'm kinda glad I don't attend a church, I've never realized you stand for everything that happens in your church and everyone who speaks at your church...that's a lot of responsibility...

[Texasgal]

29. I guess maybe I did chuckle a bit...

I am amazed that this has become a "real" issue.

That is why I started this thread, I REALLY wanted to know how this issue became all about Obama.

:shrug: Ia m still confuzzled!

[RazBerryBeret]

32. good luck,

but I'm not sure you're going to get any clarity. it's pretty random, IMO...so much of what constitutes an "issue" is what journalists decide to report on.

[ecdab]

27. Guilt by association really is all Obama detractors have.

It's an old political tactic - but it has never made any sense when you get outside the sphere of policy.

[joeybee12]

30. He's known him for 20 years, called him his "spiritual adviser" was on

his campaign staff until recently, Obama directed over $200,000 to the priest's community center...he's not just some visiting priest, he's a close friend.

[Texasgal]

33. When I was in college

I once had a "good" friend.

She got married to a nasty racist. She unfortunately became a racist herself.

After years of trying to be friendly and trying to get her out of her marriage I quit our friendship. I still sent cards and gifts to her kids, it wasn't their fault.

Am I a racist???

Am I responsible for every racist piece of crap that flew out of her mouth?

BTW- she finally divorced the asshole and we have become friendly again. Am I responsible for her behavior?

[joeybee12]

40. You're not running for President, you didn't say you never heard such

sort of speech from wright over 20 years when you attended that church and now a "friend" of the church who has preached there a lot comes out with similar comments and we're supposed to believe Obama never heard those either? We're getting a pretty good idea of what was said in Trinity Church, and whether you agree with the comments or not, you can't claim you never heard them. This problem is a part of a pattern and is going to turn into a credibility problem for Obama.

[Texasgal]

42. Just so you know...

many times that I have been forced to attend church... GOD HELP ME...:P

I have not paid much attention to the content.

Just sayin'.

[joeybee12]

44. Yeah, I know, my mind wanders a lot there the times I have to go...

...mainly to take my 89-year-old father. But let's face it, no one is gonna care what we say and do, because we're not under a microscope...what slays me about this priest is he went in there knowing what he was going to say, and knowing he was being taped...is he taht stupid to think this stuff doesn't get out there?

[Texasgal]

48. Hey... don't get me wrong

I think the pastor is a dumb-ass.

I find it a shitty thing to talk about in church...

I just do not believe that OBama should be held responsible for some jerk who has no clue...

And just to make myself perfectly clear...I am not like most Obama supporters here. I have a TON of respect for Hillary and I have never hated here and I have never involved myself with nasty baiting here on DU.

Just wanted to clarify because these days I feel like I have to. :)

[joeybee12]

52. The guy does seem clueless...we seem to agree on that...

...and he does seem to still like Obama (unlike Wright) so you'd think he woulda put his ego aside (he got lots of laughs, and I'm sure he enjoyed that) for a few months to help Obama. The Wright controversy seems to have been over, and now this. Strange friends indeed.

[TahitiNut]

36. Haven't you heard? Obama was elected by the College of Cardinals as Pope. Pope Hussein I.

(It was a recount. It was called a "miracle" by catholics worldwide.)
So, as Pope he's responsible for disciplinng clergy.
See how much sense that makes? Simple.

[MethuenProgressive]

37. His is a church that invites, promotes, and cheers Hate.

His church even sells the videos.
'Outrage'? No. Disgust.

[Texasgal]

38. Okay.

Disgust all you want.

I agree... I am not in to that type of thing myself.I am with you in disgust of what the bozo said.

My issue is just how Obama is responsible for what a visiting Pastor says?

[MethuenProgressive]

43. Obama is responsible for belonging to a church that invites people like that to preach.

A church who invited him last Sunday to preach.
It's irresponsible to support a church like that.
But, it's a free country.

[Texasgal]

46. Exactly!

It is a free country!!!

Thank GOODNESS!!!


So, Obama should be able to attend a church, where he may or may not agree with the content but not be held personally responsible for what is said.

Correct?

FREEDOM baby! It's a GOOD THANG!

[MethuenProgressive]

47. Yes, it's a free country. He can belong to a hateful church if he wants.

God DAMN America, eh?

[Texasgal]

51. Yup...

I support Obama... therefore i agree with all of what these pastors have said... :eyes:

[Forkboy]

50. How many people who believe in God are upset at this church?

Because it strikes me as a little hypocritical to say this preacher said something offensive while believing in a barbarian god and the cruelest book in history at the same time.

[joeybee12]

62. Maybe not all religious people believe in that sort of God and see

the bible as a political book defined by the times it was written in and are still offended, especially talking about raping women, not condoning, but still using a very inappropriate metaphor from the pulpit.

[Forkboy]

68. In order to believe in God one has to accept, or least justify as you just did...

...some pretty horrendous and offensive actions. Regardless of the time it was written people still believe it today, and still base many life decisions on it. Regardless of what sort of God one wants to believe in , if they believe in the Bible as either a spiritual or political guide they can't pretend those actions didn't happen just to absolve themselves of being a believer in a god who used unspeakable cruelty. This is the god they've chosen to accept. And those were his actions.

My point was that many religious people who are offended by this pastor's comments* are willing to except even more offensive actions in the first place. Many here are upset at both the comments, and the defense/justification of them, yet they do the very same thing to justify their belief in a cruel god in the first place. To me that's quite the mental juggling act.

*I thought the comments were over the top and needless. I don't hold Obama responsible for them, just as I don't hold Hillary responsible for Ferarro's comments, which were also over the top. I don't know about you, but I would hate to be held responsible for every thing that comes out of my friends mouths. Especially because I have some weird ass friends. :)

[Critters2]

71. I don't believe in a cruel or violent God. I believe in a peaceful God,

whom cruel and violent people blame for their actions. Actions like the preaching of Pfleger stir people up into frenzies, then action coming out of those feelings are blamed on God. It's been happening forever. For more on this theology, read _The Scapegoat_ by Rene Girard. Or visit the website of the Colloquium on Violence and Religion at http://www.uibk.ac.at/theol/cover/links/index.html
or Girardian Lectionary at http://girardianlectionary.net/core_convictions.htm

[Forkboy]

73. You've proven my point in a way.

Some people don't like that Obama is being absolved of supporting someone who said those offensive comments, like you're absolving God from being blamed for the violent actions of man. You can't have it both ways. Which was exactly my original point.

[Critters2]

75. Who says I can't believe what I believe?

Again, read the sources I suggested. I'm not the only one who believes what I do. And please don't tell me I must take the Bible literally. I don't.

[Forkboy]

81. No one is saying that.

You can believe what you want and take it however you want. You're completely missing my point in your defensiveness. Have a good day.

[ampad]

55. Pretty soon we will have

thought police and thought crimes of the Obama camp. Not only is this silly it is dangerous. To allow the right wing to define whtat is acceptable or not in regards to our candidates is not a good idea. If those who think this is a great idea think that for one moment the GOP will not use this further down the line then they are sorely mistaken. We have down ticket races, House and Senate seats to worry about in the future. Once the right wing figures out that there are idiots out there that follow this logic there will be no stopping them. You cannot tell some folks that though because so many of them have so much hate for Obama they don't care. This could easily be turned around on Hillary or any other Dem politician for that matter. What does a candidate do when they have nothing to run on? A couple of years ago it was swiftboating and lies nowadays we got the fucking thought police and guilt by association. They tried it out on the black guy and found out that it works pretty well. All they have to do is tweak it a little bit and once again we have a House and Senate run by repigs. People don't think about the long term effects of these gotcha tactics.

[stillcool]

57. because the rules committee...

meets tomorrow? Perhaps this is one of the "catastrophic events" so many have been hoping for?

[dchill]

58. Stop - you're all wrong!

It's to get Scott McClellan off the front page. It'd a non-story.

[ampad]

61. Bingo

You think the MSM wants the American people to hear how they allowed an illegal war to wage on when they knew good and damn well it was all lies? Notice this shit started over at Fox Noise. I heard on Randi Rhodes Fox Noise didn't touch the Scottie story yesterday but they had no problem playing the wacky priest over and over again. What is so ironic is that Hilly and her supporters are helping not only the MSM but the right wing. Who is going to hit harder with the Scottie book: Obama or McCain? Obviously McCain seeing that he is still cheer leading this war and it seems all things repig is out of style these days. The corporate media cannot afford to be blamed for this war. Also, isn't the MSM proving Scottie's point by pastorbating yet again when they should be coming out and telling people that they were lied to? I hate to say Scottie was right because the man makes me sick but he was right. The "liberal media" didn't do their job four years ago and they continue to not do their job.

[dchill]

63. "...they continue to not do their job."

Bingo RBAY!

[Critters2]

69. Because this "sermon" was an endorsement of Obama

by attacking Clinton. It was basically a campaign speech.

[Malidictus Maximus]

77. AM I the only one

who has a problem with pastors/preachers/Reverends making political endorsements?

If you want to hear a campaign speech, fine; just don't expect to write off whatever you give or pledge on your taxes. Heard a preacher once declare 'a vote for Bill Clinton is a sin against God", Don't see why contributions to that *OR* anyone praising or damning any candidate, should be tax deductible.

[Critters2]

78. I agree completely. Trinity should be paying taxes. nt

[ruby slippers]

70. Because the Repugs are afraid....very afraid.....

[billyoc]

72. MSNBC reported that favorable coverage of each candidate was even until Hillary threw a tantrum.

Then Obama's favorable coverage went down. They have a hard time coming up with things to condemn Obama for, so something like this is solid gold. Nobody will remember it in 3 days, and they can look like they responded to "victimized" Hillary.

HTH HAND

[PurityOfEssence]

76. People are judged by the company they keep, and this comes off as violent

Listen to the tone of some of the posts and threads here praising this guy; it's much like the blanket joyous praise Wright got right after Detroit and Washington and before Obama disavowed the statements. Profanity and "fuck yeah's" abound; hopefully the frustrated glee won't backfire on us, but I wish people would restrain their vengeance a tad.

The reactionaries love to portray the left as violent and uncivilized, and these clips are red meat for them.

Politicking has NO PLACE IN CHURCHES. They should lose their tax exempt status for this kind of thing. (Actually, they shouldn't have it in the first place, but that's another argument...)

The sheer triumphalist joy at mocking "white privilege" is a very hot potato, and this can easily be used to incite fear. There are many of us who see frenzied religious group outbursts like this with extreme wariness, and those who worship in a more restrained way can often see this as very unpleasant. Whipping crowds up into a lather of vengeful mockery doesn't look pretty to those not in total agreement with the subject matter, and this can be used against us to a devastating effect.

The references Pfleger makes to Obama smack once again of EXTREME personality-cult worship, and it all just reeks of a threat. Not good.

[Critters2]

80. Well said! nt

[jillan]

79. It probably wouldn't have been if it didn't come out of the same church as Rev. Wright's remarks,

the church that brought Obama to his faith.

And as some pundit said today, that people don't really know Obama so these episodes plant ideas about him.