Too many folks just don't get it.

[TahitiNut]

There is absolutely no valid or legitimate basis for sending ANY 'delegation' from Michigan. Period!

As a Michigan voter, I don't give a rat's ass WHAT rationale is employed or WHAT anyone from Michigan is called who spends a few days in Denver engaging in some cluster-fuck. They're NOT 'delegates' in any way, shape, or form.

On the day it was held, the Michigan 'Primary' was a FUBAR ... totally and completely invalidated. It was vote suppression on a grand scale. No court would recognize a Union election with even half the fuck-ups. It was less legitimate as an 'election' than ten dogs fucking in the park.

While a state Democratic caucus might have achieved some approximation of legitimacy, it never happened.

I see no way the state might have held a wholly legitimate "do-over" primary. Since votes were, in fact, tallied in the GOP primary, any "do-over" would have violated the "one person one vote" principle. But that never happened either.

FUBAR.

Deal with that FACT.


The DNC, the Michigan Democratic party, and the Democratic Parties of the "Four States," with the kind assistance of the GOP, made the bed. Sleep in it or sleep on the floor. It's a bell that cannot be un-rung.

Don't like the consequences??? That's too damned fucking bad! Without "making nice" directly to the People of Michigan, those consequences are inevitable. All the Kabuki and breast-beating and charades in the world don't change it.

[corkhead]

1. another Michiganian whole heartedly agrees with you and could not have said it better.

:toast:

[polichick]

30. Off topic but whatever happened to "Michiganders" ...

That's what my relatives there used to say way back when.

[MichiganVote]

37. Still used. Or Michiganians. Or just northern crazy people.

[polichick]

46. Lol :)

[TahitiNut]

48. I (and my family) use the term Michigander.

It's due to the state motto: "If you seek a pleasant peninsula, look about you."

It's clear. "Look about you" is the same as "take a gander."

Get it?

[polichick]

52. Gosh, I was born there but didn't know that's where it came from...

Michigan certainly is a pleasant peninsula!

[TahitiNut]

84. I'm merely being a silly goose. ...er... silly gander.

That's a play-on-words joke about the name. Michigander, Michiganian, Michigandite ... they're merely various standard suffixes for designating the "person from." I rather like the nomination as "trolls" for those of us who live "under the bridge" (Mackinac). I'd never heard that when I was a kid ... since there was no bridge. (I don't know WHAT you'd call people who live "under the fairy.")
:silly:

[polichick]

95. Oh, I thought it was a piece of play-on-words folklore or something...

I was thinking about that term "pleasant peninsula" ~ I was born in Michigan but grew up in Florida, another pleasant peninsula. No wonder I'm always yearning for the sea!

[corkhead]

64. Something has never rung right with me and Michigander. When I first heard Michiganian

I've always thought it sounded better. I find myself having to defend it, :7 now and then, even though I was born here and have lived here almost my entire life.

I've survived 5 months of GD-P so I should be able to couquer my aversion to the dissonant (at least to my ear) "Michigander" :)

[tokenlib]

92. It really is Michigander--I've looked it up a few times...

..as a transplanted Minnesotan I wanted to get it right..:) :) I still chuckle when I say it sometimes.

[elocs]

2. I heard that Michigan is going to move its 2012 primary up to the day after this year's election,

in which case New Hampshire would move theirs up to the day before. Who needs rules? They're overrated anyways. Our highways would be ever so much more interesting without them.

[TahitiNut]

4. That horse escaped the barn more than five months ago.

The DNC was told to close the door for years. They didn't. The state Democratic parties were told to close the door for years. They didn't. People talk about "counting the votes" but, out of the other sides of their mouths, say "all votes are equal but some votes are more equal than others." After all, them's the rules, right?

Don't like the consequences? Tough shit! Choke on it.


One thing is for sure. Keep pissing in the faces of the voters of ANY state and expect support ... and you're likely to find yourself in a "lose-lose" situation. Screwed.

[quakerboy]

88. I think I will lobby

for my state to have its 2012 Primary the day of the 2008 Democratic Convention.

[phrigndumass]

3. You're right, of course. According to the rules, the DNC doesn't have to seat MI at all

Michigan's status can remain "non-compliance."

:thumbsup:

(and gawd forbid anyone who disagrees with you :scared: :) )

[unblock]

5. but how do you REALLY feel?

i agree the results can't count toward anything. how can you determine the intent of the voters when everyone, including the candidates, are telling people the votes won't count for anything? nevermind that one of the candidates isn't even on the ballot, none of the candidates were supposed to campaign there, etc.

anyone got anything adverse to say about all those soviet voters who came out in support of stalin all those years? anyone think we should have "disenfranchised" them?

if the election itself is poppycock, the only sensible thing is to ignore the results.

[Major Hogwash]

6. 97% of us get it already. The other 3% are just looking for excuses.

It's an unscientific poll, mind you, but it looks to me like there are only 6 people that still post here that are touting Hillary's position on this subject.

[madfloridian]

7. As I said to an angry friend here yesterday...blame the right people

and don't lash out at everyone.

[TahitiNut]

9. That brings up another point.

Michigan and Florida AREN'T the same. I wouldn't presume to speak for Florida. (As far as I can tell, you do an excellent job of "keeping it real" in that regard.) The people on DU who posture and lump Michigan and Florida into one fictional entity make themselves look like damned fools ... except to other damned fools.

Those who attempt to feed on the corpse of Michigan voter participation are ghouls. Disgusting.

[YDogg]

8. this Florida voter feels the same way about Florida, now

[TexasObserver]

10. that's why all the perps in both states should be excluded from the convention

[TahitiNut]

12. I won't speak for "both states."

Speaking as merely one Michigan voter, I agree. Absolutely NO "superdelegate" from Michigan should be seated. No matter what other charade is played, that's a clear no-brainer.

I'd even go so far as to refuse certification of any "superdelegate" that sponsored the "Four State Pledge." In the whole notion of "rules" and the legitimate role of the DNC, their interference with that abomination was piling on and bayoneting the wounded. It was a despicable piece of posturing and coercion.

[TexasObserver]

15. I've favored splitting the delegates 50-50 and banning the superdelegates.

from each state

That way, you punish all the state party officials as well as they state party officials who let the bad guys get away with this. There needs to be punishment that hurts the state party leaders.

[TahitiNut]

16. There are no "delegates."

"Delegated" by WHOM? Not the people of Michigan, for sure. :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

31. I'd let Clinton and Obama each pick half the delegates for each state.

That would send 50-50 delegations and allow both campaigns to send their faithful.

[MichiganVote]

36. Campaigns don't vote. People do.

[TahitiNut]

47. Exactly. How can they be 'delegated by the electorate' if "chosen" by candidates?

People persist in using the word "delegate" without comprehending its meaning.

[TexasObserver]

55. It's a compromise, that's how. If the state and the DNC agree, end of story.

You act as if they have to clear it with you, which they don't and won't. If the DNC offers the state party a deal for delegates as I mentioned, the state party could accept.

As for your concern that the delegates would not be chosen by either election or caucus, that die was cast when your state held a primary that failed to meet DNC rules. They are delegates because the DNC has the power to decide who the delegates are. You are the one who cannot comprehend the meaning of the word "delegate." It's a noun, and it means whoever the DNC says it means. You have the mistaken notion that the delegates must be chosen by the electorate. That opportunity has passed Michigan, so you'll take what the DNC gives you, or do without.

[TahitiNut]

56. A "compromise" for WHOM??

Two vultures drawing lots over the carcass of a cow?? The abominable PRETENSE of representing the electorate (Democratic and independent voters in Michigan) and calling them "delegates" has NOTHING to do with tow national campaigns dividing up the booty.

Sheesh! It sounds exactly like the Pope drawing up a "compromise" between France, England, and Spain about who gets the "New World"! Fuck the people who lived here, huh?

Colonialist thinking. :puke:

[TexasObserver]

63. Your state screwed up and this is your result.

It's obvious that no amount of explanation will satisfy you, but I'm not trying to placate you. Your state lost its right to delegates. Whatever the DNC gives you is a gift. You'll take it, and if you don't like it, tough.

[MichiganVote]

59. Yeah? In 2000 they called it an election. Not.

[baldguy]

11. According to the rules

If the MI & FL delegations petition to be seated at the convention they have to be seated - with 50% of their votes. How those votes are to be apportioned is a question.

Of course Hillary wants all the votes cast for her to count, and none of the votes cast for Obama.

[TahitiNut]

13. How can an entity that DOESN'T LEGITIMATELY EXIST petition anyone?

Read much? :eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

14. The rules are the rules. Period.

:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

18. Yes... but enacting 'rules' without considering the consequences ...

... and penalizing the PEOPLE without penalty to the party "leadership" is short-sighted and often hypocritical. All the melodrama and exploitation merely WORSENS the alienation of the state's electorate. (Not EVERYONE is a "loyal Democrat" and not EVERYONE will toe the line.)

I think it's remarkable that we have 'supporters' of one candidate who insist that the OTHER candidate's 'supporters' kiss their ass to gain their support ... when THOSE 'supporters' have not had their participation in the primary system obliterated by the shenanigans of party insiders. At the same time they're baring their asses for lip-plants, they're also trying to exploit the Michigan FUBAR (dissing the people of the state) to favor their own "anointed one"). Man ... talk about hypocrisy! Sheesh!
:puke:

[AtomicKitten]

60. The courts have upheld the parties' right to operate within their rules.

The DNC made an effort to open up the first primary by including two other regional states. States that wanted that privilege submitted their request, and two were chosen. Threats were made by disgruntled states, consequences made clear.

If you wish to attribute blame, it belongs entirely with FL and MI state legislatures who jumped the gun, fully aware of the consequences. I completely support Howard Dean's right, no his obligation to set the calendar and enforce it as DNC Chair.

Many people did not come out to vote in FL and MI because it was made very clear well in advance the primary elections operating outside the DNC calendar would not count. Those that abided by that and stayed home or crossed over to vote in the GOP race because they thought the Dem race wouldn't be valid are the ones being disenfranchised. The primaries in FL and MI were in no way representative of a valid election.

Hillary Clinton doesn't give a shit about the voters in Fl and MI. If she did she would have been open to a compromise. But she wasn't. She wants all the votes and for Obama to come away with ZERO in MI. He is the new kid and didn't campaign in FL per DNC agreement.

On the other hand, Obama has operated within DNC rules and guidelines, and is now awaiting the disposition of the matter per the DNC rather than imposing his agenda on the process like you-know-who.

The hypocrisy is entirely those that can't see the overriding truisim here for the trees, and that is the contests were disqualified and were in no way representative of a valid election. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Comm will settle this once and for all. Delegates will be seated but not at the HRC-fueled "all for me" rate Hillary insists on. By law, they cannot and will not be seated at full delegate status.

On edit: I was born in Michigan so I have as much of a say as any other Democrat with regard to proffering an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions. ;) It also is clear HC will litigate this until all avenues are exhausted before finally throwing in the towel, so it really doesn't much matter what the peanut gallery thinks.

[TahitiNut]

65. Please read my post #24 below.

I do NOT argue the 'rules' nor the entitlement of the DNC to establish its own rules. I argue with the tampering ON TOP of the 'rules' and the draconian overreach. It's NOT about the candidates - it's about the voters.

[AtomicKitten]

80. unfortunately it's about two very different issues, both equally important

The voters were screwed from the get-go. A capricious decision by several entities resulted in the voters paying the price of not being heard.

Now we have to try to salvage a national election without advantaging either party and clearly the best way to deal with that is to rely on the rules of the contest as agreed to by all parties from the onset.

This points yet again to the dire need for election reform from start to finish because the pure voice of the voter isn't being heard. EVMs without regulation, voter caging, voting purging, etc. have unfortunately become the status quo rather than the exception. Kinda sucks the life out of what could be a really amazing time in our history. :(

[MichiganVote]

29. The "rules" violated a fair and free election for Dem. voters.

[TahitiNut]

39. That was actually above and beyond the 'rules.' (See my post below.)

The 'rules' were one thing. The DRACONINAN zeroing by the DNC and the tampering by the 'Four States" sealed the FUBAR deal.

[MichiganVote]

40. Yes, I read it and I fully agree.

[MichiganVote]

17. Amen Tahiti, you got it right and the folks that don't understand Michigan will rue the day.

So go ahead everybody, quote rules, quote chapter and verse, ream over HC, flag the state for Obama...it does not matter.

You don't get it, Michigan voters have already made up their minds. Delegates are a moot point. Superdelegates are a moot point.

The family had a fight and so far everybody's leaving empty handed. And its going to stay that way...

until the GE...and then the voters in Michigan are going to let this nation have one right in the eye.

May the best candidate be left standing.

[TahitiNut]

20. There won't be any "winners" in this, I fear. It's lose-lose games only.

The insane notion that a party can play such games without severe consequences is appalling. The GOP must be loving it. McCain benefits and EVERYONE loses.

[MichiganVote]

21. I know. We might be near broke in this state but we have a front row seat to disaster.

[Tatiana]

27. Awwwwwww

I love my Great Lakes neighbors :hug:

We can get through this.

[MichiganVote]

35. Me too. :) Michigan WILL come back from this. Of that I have no doubt.

I like the people, the beauty, and I enjoy the pragmatic character of the voters.

Michigan is a wonderful place to live...even in winter. :)

Added on edit, I love Chicago too!

[TahitiNut]

43. This was once one of the truly GREAT states.

In the 50s, despite detestible racism and "white flight," Michigan was a jewl in the crown of liberalsim and the Democratic party. It had the BEST schools and the BEST infrastructure. Parks, lakes, roads, and life was good.

We had Governor G. Mennen "Soapy" Williams and he was a solid, HONEST New Deal Democrat.

We had strong unions and support for working class people. We had a vibrant economy, healthy urban centers, and a MUST Labor Day stopover for anyone running for President.

Then along came Reagan ... wedge issues ... and economic predation. Yuchh!

Yes... we had the most depsicable FASCISTS, too. Father Coughlin, Henry Ford, et. al. But they were on the way out.

[MichiganVote]

61. And that fat fucker Engler who sold what was left down the Detroit river.

I grew up in Michigan. Were it not for the lifestyle that we have worked so hard to provide for our kids (not rich by any means) I would hate to think twice about raising my kids in the cities today.

A couple of years ago they kept the city pools closed in Grand Rapids. The rat bastards wouldn't pay for them to be open. So some rich fatheads coughed up money to open them the next year. I'm glad they were open but Jesus, even the pools for inner city kids had to become a charity? How sick is that?

I love Michigan. It is my home and I want it to remain my home. I would like my sons to be near but I doubt it will happen.

And its just not fair to the people of Michigan to have their home trashed by the likes of a Bush or a Cheney or a McCain.

So if it's to be Obama as the nominee, that's fine. But my standards are high.

[PassingFair]

23. Who cares if they seat our delegates or not?

What does it matter?

The results will be the same,
in the end.

Seriously?



It's not like American Idol or something,
it's not like the delegates get to sing
or dance or actually DO anything.

Shit. They just stand around wearing
funny hats and waving signs leading to
a foregone conclusion, no?

Using the idiocy and defiant behavior
of the Florida and Michigan state parties
for jumping the gun to NOT VOTE for a
democrat in the general is STUPID.

[Major Hogwash]

42. Obama is going to wrap up the nomination without a single delegate from Michigan or Florida

And you're sitting there telling us "you will rue the day"?!?

:rofl:

[MichiganVote]

62. First you have misquoted my post, second, not talking about the primaries.

No point in talking about the primaries anymore as far as who is on board. Michigan voters are not really part of the process. Rules you know.

It is precisely because Obama will not win the nomination with delegates from Michigan that there is a problem. But guess your post figures I'm in a minority so not much more to talk about.

[Swamp Rat]

19. k&r

:thumbsup:

[NorthCarolina]

22. If Dems seat the delegates then they will disenfranchise all voters

who failed to bother to vote because they understood their vote would not count. The only fair thing to do IMHO is to stick to the rules established at the beginning of the campaign.

[MichiganVote]

25. They aren't really delegates. They are the mere bodies who will save face for a host of screw up's.

[TahitiNut]

28. Precisely. There is NO CORRELATION between those bodies and the electorate's interests.

It was Election Tampering. It invalidated the primary entirely. An election costing the People of the state MILLIONS ... and then invalidated due to fraud.

[MichiganVote]

32. And that's the part that gets my goat every time.

Juvenile...the whole thing was and is nothing but an exercise in juvenile thinking.

[TahitiNut]

24. *** Where It Went Wrong ***

I hate to say this, but the GOP 'played' the game better.

The DNC Rules require (with some escape clauses) that any state that holds a primary prior to the Privileged States have it's delegation HALF-DISENFRANCHISED. In other words, the 'bargain' facing the state is to have it's party electoral strength halved if the state wants to cut in front of the 'approved line.'

OK. Fair. (I personally detest the perpetual privilege afforded to demographically conservative states, but whatever.)

But that's not the story by a long shot.

The Democrats, particularly those from the "Four States," but ALSO those in the DNC for whom the 'rules' weren't enough, did everything they could to engage in election tampering.

Yes, that's the correct name for what was done. Election tampering.

They engaged in vote suppression ... announcing that it wouldn't count, coercing candidates to withdraw (not "participate"), screwing up the ballot with "uncommitted," and encouraging "Democrats" to vote in the GOP primary instead.

It's one thing to have a reasonably valid election and use it as the basis for seating half the delegates or even one-fourth the delegates. It's quite another to invalidate and corrupt the election altogether and then engage in the hypocrisy of pretending there's ANY validity whatsoever.

Notice this: The GOP didn't screw up THEIR OWN election, even though they have similar 'rules.' They allowed campaigning and recognize their "winner-take-all" delegation.

So... it's NOT about the 'rules' ... it's about what was done above and beyond the rules to turn it into a TOTAL FUBAR.

You cannot honestly engage in election tampering and then try to "save face" by using it in any way whatsoever.

[Major Hogwash]

38. Who is responsible for Michigan moving their primary this year anyway?

I thought it was Governor Granholm who wanted it to be so early this year.
And she is a Hillary supporter, so I think you can draw a straight line between the two to get to the point.

[TahitiNut]

41. That's MOOT! It's not about the 'rules' for changing the date,

It's what was done ABOVE AND BEYOND what the 'rules' required.

[Major Hogwash]

44. Just answer the question!

This is why I moved out of Michigan 30 years ago, too many gawd damned, know-it-all, hardheaded people live there!

My gawd damned, know-it-all, cousin still lives there, and she still has a head as hard as a rock!!

[TahitiNut]

45. Mark Brewer, state party chair, takes direction from the 'head of the party.'

That's Granholm (DLC). Levin and Stabenow (DLC) have a great deal of influence, as do the Dingells, the Conyers', and the legislature ... half-controlled by the GOP.

[Major Hogwash]

53. Ah-ha!

Granholm was born in Canada - how the hell did that happen?
How did she wind up being your governor?
Don't tell me, don't tell me, let me guess - because she's cute!!
But, not too damned popular these days, is she?

Well, I already knew all that jazz.
My cousin lives in Detroit and she hates what has happened to Michigan.
But, let me tell ya, Levin ain't no damned progressive, liberal's liberal either.
He may be a Democrat, but he has a long way to go before he will ever be labeled a liberal like Wellstone or Kennedy.

Stabenow is what she was supposed to be - tough as nails and hardheaded.
She does what she is told to do, but at least she is not wishy washy or hanging around in restrooms in Minneapolis airports trying to get "some" like my Senator Craig became famous for!

[hfojvt]

68. Who was responsible for upping the ante beyond half losses?

If the ante had not been upped, would there have been a rush to get before Feb. 5th that sorta rendered the rules moot? Some states might figure that half is better than none, which is what every state after Feb. 5th probably expected. And given the pile-up on Feb. 5th, to be on Super-duper Tuesday kinda guaranteed you anonymity unless you were significant in size like California.

I notice that Hillary was at Mt. Rushmore today. It was probably the first time she has been there. If she had won the nomination on Feb. 5th as almost everyone expected she never would have gone to Rapid City. She'd have been campaigning in Colorado like Obama was (and I don't blame him) or in Florida or Ohio or Michigan - some state that matters.

[TahitiNut]

69. That's the interesting question about the power struggle INSIDE the DNC.

It's pretty clear that going from half-delegates to no-delegates was draconinan and went against the entire rationale for keeping SOME enfranchisement even if cut in half. As long as there's SOME enfranchisement, there's a clear motive (even if smaller) for voters to show up participate. When the election is DECLARED moot, it's a clear case of suppression if any possibility of reversal of that stance exists.

The extracurricular (aside from the DNC) interference by the "Four States" was outside the 'rules' and further election tampering.

[KoKo]

76. deleted by poster.

[Binka]

26. K & R

Hi Nut! :hi:

[TahitiNut]

34. Hugs, m'luv!

It sure is terrific to have some (marginally, at least) sane folks hanging in on DU. :hug: Hugs to Ben. :patriot:

:silly:

[apocalypsehow]

33. K & R.

[H2O Man]

49. There are going to be

solutions for both Florida and Michigan. The solutions will not meet everyone's needs. But they are an honest attempt by the party leadership to recognize the citizens in those states did not cause the problems.

The Obama camp is willing to accept the ruling. The Clinton camp is generally in agreement, though there are a couple advisers who wish to continue the fight. Rahm Emanuel was recently tasked with telling the Clinton camp that should they attempt to fight on this, that many of her supporters will not go along any further. The super delegates will put it out of reach.

[TahitiNut]

51. You're more optimistic than I.

Yes, it IS about the citizens and voters in the state. It's NOT about the candidates ... no matter how zealous advocates and supporters of those candidates want to exploit this FUBAR for their advantage.

So far, the people of this state paid MILLIONS in dollars they can ill-afford for a primary that has solely benefited the GOP oligarchs. Michigan has donated MILLIONS to the campaigns of Democrats.

Those campaigns have NOT spent a dime in Michigan. Those candidates (except Obama for one day) have NOT faced the voters in this state and EARNED their support.

Selecting a few party insiders to go to Denver and provide "human furniture" for window-dressing purposes just doesn't hack it. Not by a long shot.

[H2O Man]

57. Right.

A big part of it does come down to dollars and votes. There were mistakes made in both states, and a certain amount of voters are going to be denied the right to vote for the candidate they support, no matter what the decision is. The only real goal is to allow for as representative a vote as possible -- though we all agree that isn't possible (except the irrational folks saying count the results "as is").

At this point, the party leadership nationally understands that Obama is the winner of the primary. More, they recognize that he has an ability to raise money from the grass roots that the machine couldn't match. They are going to try to expand on that, rather than use the machine to try to shut it down.

The Obama campaign is going forward. He will win the presidency in November, and the party will ride his coat-tails.

[MichiganVote]

70. In the 2000 election, 20,000 people were kicked off the voter rolls in Florida

It was deceptive. It was discriminatory. The dumping of those voters was decried on this board and others. Rules! Voter suppression! Illegal! Corrupt!

Now? Nothing. Oh sure there are the rationales about rules but a vote is still a vote. Its not right what the rules committee did and it will never be right. The simple fact is they overreached, they thought their action would not matter and now they find that is does. So everybody has a finger to point. Michigan Dem. leadership, the legislature, the GOP, Clinton, the voters themselves. Its all bullshit.

But you're dead on about the money. Money means power. Michigan doesn't have it, Obama does.

So fine. It will be what it will be. But no one will convince me that the fact that Indiana voters could not vote for their Biden or Edwards is the same as what has happened in Florida or Michigan.

It didn't have to be this way and it shouldn't be this way. Its wrong.

[H2O Man]

75. It certainly is wrong.

People who voted, and people who didn't vote, were not given the equal rights given to people from other states. The proposed "solution" has to focus on the rights of the democrats who were looking to exercise their right to vote, rather than either candidate or the party officials.

[MichiganVote]

96. Exactly.

[hfojvt]

50. in what ways was the Michigan election FUBAR?

Were there missing machines, missing ballots, bad voters lists?

I'm not questioning your observation, but sorta need details, because nothing was reported in this vein that I know about. So I would think it was a normal primary except with names taken off the ballot and being told it wasn't gonna count - which was true of our caucus in 2004. It didn't count for anything, so hardly anybody went to it (by which I mean about 25 people in a county of 70,000)

[TahitiNut]

54. It's called vote suppression.

"It's not going to count for anything" - "Vote 'Uncommitted'" - "Vote for Romney - he's unelectable." - "Stay home."

There can be absolutely no validity to such an election ... one where five candidates were 'encouraged' to remove their names for the ballot, too.

See my post above ... "*** Where It Went Wrong ***"

[Buzz Clik]

58. This is such a great post.

Those who support seating Michigan "as is" are not Democrats of any kind. Hell, I'm not sure they qualify as Americans. They are self-serving people who think of nothing but grabbing power.

[Diamonique]

66. Here's another Michigander who agrees with you too! n/t

[lonestarnot]

67. K & R

[David Zephyr]

71. That's the TahitiNut I love!

K&R.

[Jerseycountryman]

72. Yup. Rules are rules

And in any respectable institution, when rules are broken, the disruptor has to pay.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

73. I too am a Michigander.

And we all knew what we were doing. We knew the threats, and we rolled the dice. Our point was to make a point. We didn't think we'd actually count, that it would be this close. Our point was the point all of the protestors are now making: that we're tired of being shat upon, that Michigan matters a hell of a lot more (even if only symbolically) than New Hampshire (sorry, my friends from New Hampshire) and certainly more than South Carolina (o.k., now I'm just being mean ). Our point is that Michigan is a microcosm of what's wrong with this country in manifold ways. We WERE a manufacturing monster: Ford, GM--see every Michael Moore documentary out there. What's wrong with Michigan is what's wrong with the values of the politicians. We're both rural and urban (Detroit has one of the highest--if not the highest--democratic turn-out rates out there). So we decided to push back this year; we decided to cut off our noses to spite our face. And we did. We can't ask for plastic surgery now.

WOLVERINES

[MichiganVote]

74. Ok I was good until the last couple of sentences. The nose job wasn't ours alone.

[nomaco-10]

77. I agree with you 100%, but hillary has made such an issue...

and convinced so many voters that the dnc and obama do not want their votes to count, that I think they are trying to make some sort of compromise at this point that will appease her, if that's even humanly possible, and make a conciliatory effort to make michigan voters feel like they aren't getting screwed over like hillary would try to have them think.

I think that's why they will make some sort of compromise saturday, knowing full well that it will make no difference in the outcome of the nomination.

I will be so happy when the day comes that hillary can no longer hold this primary hostage to her obsessive ambitions.

[TahitiNut]

82. It's rhetoric that ONLY had meaning BEFORE the election was declared "meaningless"

At that point, and then compounded further, it was a corrupted and tampered-with election. It became not only de jure invalid, it became de facto invalid. The nonsense about "every vote counting" could only make any kind of sense if ALL the votes were actually CAST by ELIGIBLE voters wishing to be heard. When, instead, voters were told staying home was the SAME as voting ... it was an invalid election. When they were DENIED the chance to vote for their CHOICE of a candidate ... it was an invalid election. When they were DENIED an opportunity to HEAR directly from the candidates and QUESTION them ... it was an invalid election.

The GOP (sad to say) didn't make the same corrupting mistakes. ALL the candidates remained on THEIR ballot. The voters in the GOP primary were told their votes would be counted ... just less.

Hillary is lying. NEITHER her NOR Obama (or even the man on the moon) have any 'delegates' to claim. They just don't exist. There ARE NO delegates because the eligible electorate was never given the fair forum in which to make such a delegation, even one with penalties for breaking the 'rules.'

[papapi]

78. I get it. I got trounced by Hillbots on here for saying so.

[Samantha]

79. I think they "get it" TahitiNut - they just PRETEND they don't see it

because that's what suits their purposes. If you can ignore the Truth long enough, perhaps you can obfuscate it and others will begin to fail to see it as well. Talk over it, talk around, and soon the Truth will fade. It's just a transparent -- and a poor one at that -- strategy.

Sam

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. thank you for keeping people informed. There is an organized campaign of bald face lying going on

[Cha]

83. 50th Rec'd..thanks,

TahitiNut:) This would be clear by now if hilary the dissembler wasn't hoggin' the mike.

[2rth2pwr]

85. Some percentage/amount/share of the MI delegates will be seated.

[TahitiNut]

87. Read my lips, moran. There. Are. No. Delegates.

Selected warm bodies used as window dressing or kabuki are NOT 'delegates.'

[2rth2pwr]

94. Whatever way you would like to refer to them is fine. They will add to the total delegates earned by

the candidates.

[Zhade]

89. ...but not in clinton's favor.

Sorry, she still loses.

[Zhade]

86. Kick for TRUTH.

NT!

[dmr]

90. This Michigander is sick of all this crap

Not everyone voted. If you're told time and again that your vote won't matter very much, why bother. Especially when there were people pissed off that their names and addresses were going to be given to the political parties to do what they will.

I know several people who didn't vote because their candidate wasn't on the ballot. I also know a couple of people who voted Republican to mess with them.

I cringe when I hear or read how Hillary 'won' Michigan. She won nothing. Voting uncommitted didn't mean anything. It was an illegitimate election. An election that shouldn't have occurred. An election the Michigan Democratic Leadership should own up to and then reimburse the state for wasting the tax dollars this state doesn't have to squander. I've written and called, they don't care. If it doesn't fit into their agenda, they don't want to hear from you.

[TahitiNut]

91. Amen.

It's funny (strange, not ha-ha) how difficult it is to hammer that into *some* folks' skulls. (Then there are the trolls who only throw shit because they're too stupid - and soociopathic - to be constructive.)

Post after post after post arguing about NON-EXISTENT 'delegates' - coupled with the news media spreading the same appalling FICTION - no wonder folks are dumbed down. (Al Gore got it right in 'Assault on Reason' - and 'reason' is losing.)

[unc70]

93. DNC: the rules and sanctions mean whatever we now say they mean

I reread the rules earlier this week and in the end they mean whatever the Rules Committee (Brazile, et al), the DNC, or the convention say they are. The DNC can force a method of delegate selection on any state with almost no recourse except the full convention.

The sanction of reducing a state's delegation size by half and prohibiting its SDs from voting at all is a mandatory sanction for any state which breaks the scheduling rules. Florida and Michigan certainly broke the schduling rule 11. But so did IA and NH, but without being sanctioned. I need to refresh my memory on why they were spared, since their situations were much like the case in FL.

A strict interpretation of the rules on campaigning in a non-compliant state would prevent Obama from claiming any FL delegates because his campaign bought cable ads which ran in Florida. Their excuse that their national ad buy had to include Florida doesn't really hold up. Don't expect much on this, although 15 Dems could file a complaint and force action on this.

Both Clinton and Obama and their supporters are claiming very partisan positions while claiming theirs is the righteous course. I supported Edwards so I have a different view on what happened than many of you. Once FL and MI were moved up and they became non-compliant, the Obama campaign and its supporters were masterful as they played the situation, the media, and the other candidates . Since Clinton was favored to win both FL and MI, it was to Obama's advantage to work behind the scenes to thwart efforts to bring those states back into compliance. They were particularly manipulative when they convinced other candidates, particularly Edwards, to remove their names from the MI ballots. Presto! Gone was the risk that Obama might finish third in MI behind Clinton and Edwards and thus expose Obama's lack of broad support and call into question just how much support he really had among Reagan Democrats. (Apparently not much after Iowa)

[TahitiNut]

97. (sigh) We sure do have some slowww learners.

:kick:

[dailykoff]

98. Face it, the Clintons and their clients are puke sellouts.

They're only pulling this shit to line their pockets. Lucky for us the whole rats' nest has been exposed for the shit eaters they are. :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

99. It's the hostile takeover of the Democratic Party by the corporatists.

It's been taking place for many years and is reaching a climax.