Sadly, I was largely wrong with my OP last night.

[cali]

I wish I hadn't been. When I wrote it, I didn't realize that Hillary had made similar comments before. I hadn't really focused on her campaign's insistence about staying in because anything could happen, and most of all I have a strong inherent distrust of reactive anger and outrage. I have a strong distrust of what I perceive as howling mob outrage. I prefer reactive to reflective, and so it's ironic that I spoke out of reactivity.

I was wrong. Although I'm not angry myself about her remarks: I've considered Hillary's campaign and candidacy a pathetic shambles for months, I was wrong to criticize others' reactions to her RFK/assassination comment.

I had no right to judge other folks reaction to her crass, ugly comment.

I still think it's ridiculous to conclude that she wants Obama dead or that she's crazy, but her comment was both baffling and inexcusable and it conjured up something almost unspeakably painful.

I apologize for being reactive rather than reflective, and I deeply apologize for belittling anyone's genuine outrage and pain over Clinton's words.

I should also know that it's stupid to post after 3 g&ts.

[Iceburg]

1. Robert Kennedy Jr. issued the following statement this evening:

“It is clear from the context that Hillary was invoking a familiar political circumstance in order to support her decision to stay in the race through June. I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband's 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June. I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense.”

[cali]

2. I come to my conclusions the old fashioned way:

by making them independly, as best I can. It was a lousy thing to say. It was offensive to many people. It was stupid and crass. And what Bobby feels privately, is something neither you nor I know. It's hardly a strong defense of Hillary's comment.

[ShortnFiery]

5. RFK, Jr. may be employing defense mechanisms because he's way too close to HRC to admit to HIMSELF

that she's that conniving. EVERYONE (even geniuses) employs defense mechanisms when to "accept facts" would PROFOUNDLY VARY long held "emotionally laden" beliefs

[baldguy]

26. RFJ Jr wants to be the Senator from NY

[Bucky]

44. Stupid, baseless assertion.

Maybe he's ambitious--it's not a bad quality. I doubt he'd look the other way if he really felt offended. Clinton was hardly jumping on his murdered father's bones. Clinton, after all, wasn't being glib about the spectre of assassination. She was being subtle. And the offense was toward Obama, not the Kennedys. It is offensive if you see a bit of Bobby in Barack.

I like RFK Jr. Heck, I even like and continue to admire Hillary Clinton. But she's only putting off the inevitable now. If she stays in the race, she'll continue to make mistakes like this.

[baldguy]

58. Kennedy Jr eyes Hillary’s Senate seat

“If Hillary left the Senate, I might run for that seat.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1294908.ece

Do you think he's changed his mind in the last year?

[Bucky]

61. It would help if you responded to the comments I made, not the ones you imagine I made

I said explicitly there's nothing wrong with being ambitious. What I've seen of the man, based on his exposure of the vote fraud in Ohio in 2004 and his fierce environmentalism, I think he has the integrity to say what he believes & not just what suits his career goals.

You have yet to say anything that suggests his ambitions override his integrity.

[baldguy]

64. If I say RFK Jr wants to be the Senator from NY, its not a stupid & baseless assertion.

Because RFK Jr said it.

And I didn't make any characterizations about Clinton's - or RFK Jr's - comments in any way.

[Tippy]

65. I've changed my mind a lot of times in the past year....

No one really knows if Kennedy has had second thoughts do they?.....I reacted somewhat to what Clinton said yesterday but today I feel better knowing, we all have our theories but no one but God knows for sure. Speculators are driving up the price of gas....We have a lot of Speculators here on DU at times I have been on,e but i really don't like the taste it leaves in my mouth

[Medusa]

47. I want to hear from the other RFK children

and then I want to hear a true apology from Clinton to Obama.

[dkf]

56. He admitted he hadn't seen her comments himself.

He keeps on having to pull her bacon out of the fire...I feel sorry for him.

Talk about betting on the wrong candidate.

[Buck Rabbit]

74. Is RFK Jr speaking for the Obama family?

A June surprise in this campaign would happen to an Obama, not a Kennedy. His opinion of whether the Obama family should feel offended is no more valid than yours or mine.

And I am not saying that Michelle and Barack don't see this as anything more than a gaffe. I don't know, they have allowed their campaign to take the high road and not go after her even though her campaign always pounces on gaffes. I am just pointing out that RFK Jr is not the end all authority on who should be offended by this.

The fact that Clinton apologized to the Kennedys not the Obamas is one of the reasons this gaffe still has legs where ever electrons flow.


<edited: one of probably many missyspells>

[kevinmc]

76. I am sure if Bush said the same thing it would be no big deal for Robert Kennedy Jr .....

or any of the Clintonites. They would probably be apologizing all over the place for him. And everyone would just laugh and snicker about how he just made a gaffe ... no harm no foul.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Hey Cali, IMO, don't sweat the small stuff. You're a noble soul to admit your mistakes.

We "tangled" early on but I have come to truly respect your intelligence and gift for persuasive writing EVEN WHEN I don't fully agree with you.

You were kind to me when I "stepped out of line" and I will always remember your thoughtful post before my well needed "vacation." :blush:

You're true blue democratic to me, FWIW.

Have a nice weekend. :-)

[cali]

6. Thanks, Shorty.

for the kind words. It's actually going to beautiful here in northern Vt today so I'm off to the garden and work in just a bit.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Sounds enjoyable.

Here in NoVA I'm going to take our beloved elderly dog (14 y.o.) to the Vet for an arthritis shot. Oh, and darn if I don't have to get around to finish trimming around the fence in our back yard. Cheers. :toast:

[Kahuna]

4. I see her comment as reckless. Surely she is old enough and

experienced enough to know that the same way she sends her dog-whistles to white women, latinos, jews and poor whites to come to her rescue against the interloping Obama, she could be seen as sending a dog-whistle to some crazy to take him out so that she can win the nomination.

As disrespectful as her comments were for the Kennedy family, they could be deadly for Obama should some nut case decide to ride to her rescue.

[BklynChick]

7. it's scary and chilling to say, but I don't think it's "ridiculous" at all that she may want him

gone in whatever way possible. certainly her actions of the past several months have shown you she would stop at nothing and certainly wish ill will on him. why is it "ridiculous"

[Life Long Dem]

8. It was a thing you never say. n/t

[WinkyDink]

9. Well, now what will all those who AGREED with you say?

[cali]

10. Oh, that's pretty easy to predict.

they'll accuse me of knuckling under to GD-P mob rule and the Obama cult.

[Dr.Phool]

25. Like you, I didn't know that she has been making comments like this for months.

I really used to admire her. Didn't support her, because I liked Edwards better. But over the last few months, Clinton and her campaign have been turning my stomach.

But, for now, I have a tee time at noon.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skwmom]

13. We all heard Bill Clinton running around WV telling people that Obama thinks he's better than

them. (I can't recall if in the clip he directly named Obama but the inference was very clear). I think such comments are REALLY unwise and could outrage an "unstable" person. While the majority of West Virginians are not racist, some are and making such an inflammatory comment is STUPID. It's hard to believe a smart man like Clinton would NOT realize that.

[Political Heretic]

14. I don't think she wants him dead of course. But I think she's lost all sense and perspective.....

drowned in an obsessive desperation to win something now unwinnable. It's like there's no filter on any desperate thought that comes in to her brain. To me, the comments typify the height of "poorly thought through" - and to me it just shows the mental state of her campaign right now..... anything that even sounds like a possible argument, however far fetched, for staying in, gets used before being thought about.

[cali]

15. I think your comment strikes pretty close to the truth.

desperation is crowding out rational thought.

[Skwmom]

20. Well isn't it amazing how "rational" thought can be crowded out week after week?

John Harwood made comments last night that made it clear that he was a Clinton supporter. Yet, he is the same reporter I heard last week making a comment about something happening with Obama and it wasn't the standard "a scandal could bring him down." I can't remember the actual wording but I was stunned when I heard it and another poster even commented on Clinton hacks seeming to infer that "something" could happen to Obama.

In OH, right after the election, they were saying that Clinton WOULD BE VP b/c she would be in the catbird seat (I'm sure you can figure out what that means).

As far as trying to figure out what Clinton really meant by her comments, I would caution people not to project their morals onto Clinton when trying to make that determination.

[Political Heretic]

21. Not really. It's been "desperate" for her since the shock of Iowa.

The Caucus heard 'round the world. :D

[juno jones]

49. I've noticed that too.

This incident has brought that background static into focus.

Good post.

[Celebration]

60. correct

"As far as trying to figure out what Clinton really meant by her comments, I would caution people not to project their morals onto Clinton when trying to make that determination."

AMEN. The biggest mistake we can make is to project our sensibilities onto someone else.

To me it was obvious--she was trying to subtly plant the idea that Obama could be assassinated, just as RFK was, and then she would be the nominee. Finally, she was called on it. Would you or I or 80% of people have had that same thought process? I doubt it. Clinton is in that "other" 20%.

[Medusa]

48. She wants to be the president at any and all costs.

She is willing to overthrow the will of the people of this country to try and steal the nomination. She knows that is not going to happen, the math just is not there. What's her only other hope? She spoke it yesterday. She's a fucking ghoul of the worst kind and our party needs to show her the door ASAP.

[genna]

16. I hear your apology for mocking geniune concern, but what makes a thoughtful person callus?

Is it there are so many points where you disagree with the other side that their motives, intentions, and desires are discounted before they ever speak?


I hate to read posts from conservatives who say liberals mocked them when conservatives die. It is as if the last bit of humanity has fled from the conservative and all the liberal can do is mock their passing.

Are we, not just you but all of us, so invested in our point of view that we refuse to respond to genuine pain and need from our opposition? If not, where does our humanity go when we stop responding to troublesome behavior?


I don't know what the future holds for anyone of us, but it seems now more true now than ever that picking a side and sticking to it NO MATTER WHAT COMES is shortsighted at best.

[cali]

18. sorry, I didn't mock anyone.

I said people were overreacting. That's not mocking. It was overly judgmental. It was unfair. But I'll still always be someone who prefers that the rational temper the emotional- and visa versa.

[madaboutharry]

17. Cali, I am rather impressed that you were even able

to type after 3 g&ts. I would have been unconscious.

[Window]

28. What are g&ts?? I honestly have no idea. Thanks.

On edit, I saw in a post further down, it's gin and tonic. LOL!

[Cornus]

32. gin & tonics? nt

[Window]

77. Thanks. I saw that after I typed my post. LOL!

Peace:thumbsup:

[Catherina]

19. Thank you n/t

[cboy4]

22. .............

[Perry Logan]

23. Spoken like a gentleman.

(Or a gentlewoman, as the case may be.)

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

24. Only three gin & tonics on a Friday Night?

What are you, Baptist?

[intaglio]

27. Cali, your response was the forgiving one

the kind one, not the reflex aggressiveness that it is so easy to give into. I agree she did not mean to encourage assassination but encouragement was the result of her carelessness.

Mind you on the positive side at least she admits that Obama is the new Bobby Kennedy

[union_maid]

29. Nothing to apologize for

I didn't see it your way last night, but I really admire the instincts that led you to your earlier conclusion. Your principles are in the right place.

[marions ghost]

30. what seems like howling mob outrage

is only individuals at a few computer terminals expressing justifiable outrage in a fairly safe way. It's not wrong of you to express your dismay at strong words, but on the other hand this isn't a "mob." In this culture we have very few ways to be heard at all.

But thank you for your reflections Cali. Apology accepted. It would be much easier to say nothing. We all make mistakes--the difference is in how a person handles it.

[southern_belle]

31. No apologies needed!

(((HUGS)))

sb

[monmouth]

33. Dear Cali, I always love reading your posts, whether I agree or not,

you need not apologize for your opinion. I also admire your ability to say you might have been wrong. Type on!

[H2O Man]

34. It is a tough topic

for many people. We are two weeks away from 40 years, and for a lot of people of a certain age, that is a painful memory. And the recent news on Ted has been weighing heavily on many of our minds.

Last night, Chris Matthews said, "This year is already too much like 1968." Again, people of a certain age know exactly what he means.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to feel in response to that statement by Clinton. Many people are angry, others are sad, some feel the statement wasn't intended in a negative way, and a few feel the need to "blame" the Obama camp. In every case, it is a matter of how an individual processes the information. In my case, it initially felt like a punch to the gut, and brought back some painful memories. But those are memories, and now is now. And I am confident that RFK would say that we need to stay focused on the positive.

[zulchzulu]

35. I know you were saying what you said with the best intentions

When I first heard her "gaffe", I thought it was tasteless.

When I heard her "apology", I was disgusted.

When I heard she AND her campaign have used that "strategy" repreatedly, there are no words to fully show how utterly vile she is.

To even think that Obama could still be killed as a talking point to stay in the race is beyond any bounds. It's as though she's hoping it happens and we'll all rally THE FUCK around her as the "replacement" for our grief.

[JVS]

36. Thank you for admitting your error. I was shocked to see you defending such a thing

[shadowknows69]

37. Don't beat yourself up for trying to find the light in darkness

You're a nobler and more objective person than I.

[cboy4]

46. I'll say. But then again, so is driftwood.

lol

[JohnnyLib2]

38. Deciding what to do when outraged is part of life--thanks for the

timely reminder that OPs 1 and 2 have brought.

[Adelante]

39. I didn't see your thread last night

But I get what you're saying. If I hadn't heard the earlier reference with my own ears, I would have reacted similarly. As it was, at the time, I put it down to her mind wandering from fatigue and defended her on that basis. I was more interested then in why she would be extending the resolution of her husband's campaign into June, which she had repeated so many times. Her being loose with the truth is not unusual, though. But once is enough for a verbal mistake so loaded as assassination. One remembers making it and self-edits. More than once, it is something deliberate, as mind-boggling at that is to ponder. It's been said of her that she has a political tin ear, but between the first time and this time, somebody in her campaign had to have told her this was unacceptable discourse.

[frickaline]

40. I had *exactly* the same reaction and realization you had

It amazes me that people here have indignation about the video when viewed in isolation. And I find that somewhat troubling. However, once you see the comments leading up to this (the other 2 mentions of RFK's primary pointed out by KO as well as the many times her campaign has referenced 'catastrophic events'* as a reason to remain in the primary) you do start to see a pattern.

When I thought about this, it seemed fair to provide someone in the midst of a political race of such historic proportions a little slack, given that assassination is a reality in which these candidates must deal in every single day. But the pattern of these comments is disturbing and really does suggest a more thoughtful campaign strategy than a one time mistake.


*I found this post interesting: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6097864&mesg_id=6098915

[Lerkfish]

41. hey, its all good.

:hugs:

[Hepburn]

42. "...3 g&ts."

What is that? :shrug:

TIA for an explanation! :hi:

[New Earth]

52. gin & tonics?

:beer:

[Coexist]

43. no problem Cali!

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

45. What kind of gin?

[Adelante]

57. That's what I want to know, too

:)

[jsmirman]

50. Like I said, "I think you may want to rethink that." Not surprised that you did.

I knew when you examined the whole situation you would come around.

Good on you for correcting yourself.

I expected nothing less from a sensible, good poster like yourself.

[DevonRex]

51. Cali, you're a wonderful person. I understand your reaction

completely. Given the fact that the media had basically given her a pass on her earlier remarks, it is not surprising that a lot of people didn't know how often she has alluded to assassination.

So don't worry about it. We love you and respect you. And this is from a newbie who has had to do a crash course on the posters here. If I know how great you are then certainly everyone else does.

[juno jones]

53. Don't worry Cali, 'specially about the g&t :)

True, I was not in a mood to respond to your plea to give her the benefit of the doubt, but you did soften my feelings a bit and make me think.

I had heard the previous statements, but to have them recalled in detail (and as stated upthread the 'scandal which is bigger than a scandal stuff) has made me madder than anything. I don't care if she meant this or not. We simply do not need someone in office prone to verbal gaffes and non-apologies. We already have one of those and look how that turned out.

I do not always agree with what you say, Cali. But in the many years I have spent on this board, lurker and poster, you seem to be a person who views can evolve, that you think things over and are not bound by an ideology. I appreciate that about you.


PS All I can think of in this context is Ronnie Raygun testing the mic with that stupid 'we begin bombing' *joke*. What else will come out of her mouth?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

54. You're knuckling under to GD-P mob rule and the Obama cult.

:D

[City Lights]

55. No harm, no foul, cali.

And no apology needed. Glad you saw the situation differently after giving it more thought.

Recommended.

[mckeown1128]

59. Ok... time for a .....

:grouphug:

[Celebration]

62. Sounds like you are a "good" drunk

Someone who gets sort of sappy, and everyone is beautiful and lovely, rather than a "bad" drunk, that starts verbally abusing people.

I would hate to be responsible for my judgment after three gina and tonics, although I doubt that it would have clouded my judgment in this particular case.

Glad to see you have come around.

[CaptJasHook]

63. Thanks Cali, I was a little worried

that you had joined the appeasement branch of DU.

I am done with reconciliation with rabid Hillary supporters. I will still fight to the death for any and all of them in the General, but this ridiculousness has gone on too long and has become pathological for the party.

Most of the reasonable and compassionate Hillary supporters do not support the actions of the small vocal, knee-jerk remainder. I took the gloves off last night and have given up hope on their reason. Ever since JE endorsed Barack, I have been waiting for Hillary to show signs that she was serious about uniting, healing and putting party before selfishness.

She not only failed, but probably cost us Florida and maybe Michigan. Now she is aiming at losing the Purple states as well. We need to hammer into the remaining Hillary supporters that:

Obama has won the numbers and they can't change that
Obama is a great General Election Candidate
They are supporting a candidate that is a selfish Megalomaniac.

[atufal1c]

66. I'm glad you agree. I feel the same way.

Although I'm not so sure she doesn't *wish* him dead.

Terrible to say, but I think the Clinton's are off the rails because this was supposed to be a slam dunk: 8 years of Republicans has led to wars, thousands dead, 4.00 gasoline, a trashed economy, and a pissed off populace.

The Republicans are in shambles and can barely keep Republicans in office at the RNC, let alone at the polls. And they have fielded a weak candidate.

Add to that a pretty weak Democratic field and you've got to feel pretty good about your chances when you're a luminary like HRC--wife of a hugely popular Democrat and a partner in the LAST Democratic resurgence.

They are reeling.

And it shows.

[Willo]

67. My post in your OP last night is missing/deleted.

I think because of the recent technical issues on the site. I've noticed some of my posts appear with either a capital or lower-cased "i" in my name.

Anyway, if you didn't get to read it, what I said respectfully that is relevant to this OP is, "Cali is true to Cali."

But, mind if I pick your brain a bit?

I still think it's ridiculous to conclude that she wants Obama dead or that she's crazy, but her comment was both baffling and inexcusable and it conjured up something almost unspeakably painful.

If you find her comment to be baffling, inexcusable, et al., why do you also think the dark conclusion is ridiculous?

This is what I think. It seems there are limits to what each of us are willing to accuse some people of because to accept that they have crossed that line, is to accept that we have crossed with them - in that, our views about the world darkens a bit too. We've all crossed many of those lines normally, from childhood innocence to adult world reality. From then on, I think its about each of us maintaining the appropriate distance from conspiracy theorist and madness.

So, in this instance, our different experiences, allows you to find ridiculous what I find plausible.

What say you pre-g&t?

[Raster]

68. Wow! Just when I had you figured for a hard-ass, Yankee know-it-all...

I find you're a hard-ass, Yankee know-it-all with the capacity for self-correction and the courage to do so. A good man stands up and says "I am right." A better man--or woman, as the case may be--stands up and says "I was wrong." Cheers!:toast:

On edit: Please excuse the backhanded compliment. I mean it with all sincerity. You definitely bring your own flavor to DU.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. typical Cali

Well said!
:hi:
You have class


peace~

[BlooInBloo]

70. :) It's all good.

[thewiseguy]

71. Thanks for having an open mind

[Blue_Roses]

72. what she said was tacky and irresponsible

especially considering the volatile intensity of this race. She once again, opened her mouth and spoke without thinking. She does it often and while I don't think she means it intentionally, I've said before, she has a certain mind set that doesn't reveal itself until she's under "pressure" as she is now. The "I'm not some kind of stand-by-my-man" comment years ago set a tone for how she handles stress and pressure.

It's not so much what she said (while tacky and stupid) it's the fact that she attacks in a way that she feels is stating a point, when actually it's demeaning. Whether she realizes it or not,(giving her the benefit of the doubt) this is what defines her character--and it's what makes her such a polarizing figure.

[thewiseguy]

73. She knew what she was saying. She had made those exact comments before.

Sadly those comments went unnoticed and she got a free pass.

[Blue_Roses]

82. now this is something I wasn't aware of since

there have been so many idiotic things she's said. I can't keep up with them all. When was this?

[apocalypsehow]

75. cali, don't worry about it. I always respect your posts even when I disagree with your conclusions,

which isn't often. When something like that hits the news, we all get a bit "reactive," myself most certainly included.

[WeDidIt]

78. I knew I was right to question my gut instinct

I had been ignoring on sight anybody who tried to spin her remarks, until I saw yours.

[Tatiana]

79. Good on you.

I'd hoped you take a look at the pattern and not just the individual incident.

[Marnieworld]

80. aww Cali

Honestly I was a bit surprised but not offended. I respect that you didn't want to just pile on. It takes a big person of character to admit that they were wrong and apologize. If only Hillary issued such a genuine apology. Nah, I doubt it would help in this case. It's hard to imagine the worst, and this was pretty bad. Posting with a buzz is definitely not unheard of. ;-) :pals:

[Mme. Defarge]

81. Merci, mon ami ...

I admire anyone who can sincerely admit a mistake. Very refreshing! Not as refreshing, however, as a G&T.

[quiet.american]

83. Seriously, thanks for your understanding, Cali -- and cheers. nt

[swishyfeet]

84. I was with you last night and this night too

Tahiti had a nice post earlier that helped me understand what it was like for someone who lived through the period and why this was a subject Hillary should known better than to bring up.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. I, personally, think it's GREAT that the Clinton folks are so eager to "move on".

Yes, let's move on, shall we?

The primaries will be over June 3rd.

Time for Senator Clinton to exit the race, so we can concentrate on unifying behind Barack Obama for the November election against John McCain.

Absolutely. Ready to move on!