Abandoning All Hope

[NanceGreggs]

Ironically, I started writing this piece last night, before Hillary’s latest “gaffe, mis-speak, inadvertent, totally misunderstood” comment. But in view of today’s events, it has been rendered even more relevant.

Over the past few months, months in which vitriol from both camps has been spewed with reckless abandon, there have also been – though seemingly few and far between – valid points made by the more sane among us.

Posts that begin, “I don’t trust Obama because …,” or, “I don’t support Hillary based on …,” followed by facts, statements or actions by either candidate that explain the poster’s reasons for feeling the way they do, are not only acceptable but necessary as part of the political discourse as we assess the candidates who are vying for the highest position in our nation.

Many here have weighed the merits of both remaining candidates based on their own criteria as to what we look for, hope for, or expect in a potential POTUS. And I don’t discount for a second that someone who disagrees with my personal preference has a right, even a duty, to base their support on their own criteria, not mine.

However, I do have a problem with being told, as I often have been, that if I point to something that Hillary has said or done that I find distasteful, out-of-bounds, or injurious to the party, I have based my remarks on being “just a long-time Hillary-hater” – as though her current conduct has nothing to do with my comments.

And I might interject at this point that a quick perusal of my journal proves the point that I am not a “long-time Hillary-hater”; quite the opposite, you’ll find many glowing things I said about her – before she started conducting herself, and her campaign, in way I found truly offensive.

What too many of the Hillary supporters here fail to acknowledge is that “Hillary hatred” has not been a long-standing position that many (I would even say most) of us came into this primary with. That hatred, dislike, distrust – whatever degree we individually feel is warranted – has been a direct result of the woman’s behavior.

I am not a long-time Hillary-hater because I refuse to accept that her sniper-fire story was a simple “mis-statement” or “mis-remembrance”, especially after it was repeated several times in prepared speeches. I see it as a blatant lie – which is what it was.

I am not a long-time Hillary hater because I construed her words about hard-working white Americans as having an unsavory racist overtone. She said those words, plain and simple.

I am not a long-time Hillary-hater because I perceive her newly-found “concern” about counting the votes of FL and MI, only after realizing she NEEDED those votes to stay viable, as self-serving and disingenuous. Her concern is newly-found, and a quick review of her own statements on the topic over time prove that.

I am not a long-time Hillary-hater because I have opined on her constant movement of the goalposts, her manipulation of the numbers in order to hold herself out as leading in the “popular vote”, her statements that McCain would be a wise choice for the presidency as opposed to her fellow Democrat (who is nothing more than a 2002 speech), her stirring of the Wright shitstorm pot, her “as far as I know” comments, and everything else she has done to sow the seeds of divisiveness within the Party for the sole purpose of getting what she wants at any cost.

No, I am not now, never have been, and never will be a long-time Hillary-hater. My current distaste for this woman was not born of some long-held, smoldering desire to see her undone; it is born of her own words, actions and conduct.

Hillary’s statement today (a statement which was not an off-the-cuff gaffe, but a reiteration of a comment she has made in the past) does, however, bring my distaste to a much more intense level than even I felt possible.

I am not a long-time Hillary-hater. Even today, in light of the most offensive remarks any presidential hopeful has ever uttered, I am still not a Hillary-hater.

But at this point, I admit to being as close to hatred as is humanly possible without crossing that line – despite a line which was crossed today by someone who, campaigning on her vast political experience, is in a position to know full well where that line is drawn, and how much of your self-respect, your dignity as a human being, and your political soul you have to be willing to abandon in order to step across it.

If Hillary truly had any political savvy, any ability to foresee the dire consequences of her words and actions, any common sense - all qualities one would need to lead a nation - she displayed her total lack thereof when she blindly entered the doorway that was clearly marked, "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here".

[Ken Burch]

1. I don't hate her either.

I just find it deeply frustrating that she's staying in this race for no reason. That she's doing so even though she knows she's hurting the party by doing so. She's a better person than that, or once was.

[RNdaSilva]

53. Agree...

[cliffordu]

2. Great post, Nance. Thanks. K&R

[Skidmore]

3. For some time now I have been saying that she is not fit to be president.

She has neither the moral judgment nor the insight it takes to lead the nation. We do not need another George Bush.

[marions ghost]

12. yes and like Dubya

I'm seeing at this point how much Hill is relying on her handlers...including the bad advice of Bill. Somebody at DU got a little offended when I called her a puppet recently, and maybe she's a little more independent than Dubya, but she is doing somebody else's bidding it seems to me. She's sold her soul to the highest bidder. This kind of irrational behavior is indicative of it.

Maybe some of her supporters will have the veil lifted from their eyes now. (Unless they are of the same ilk, then they never will).

[eridani]

49. Allowing herself to be overly "handled" doesn't quite get into "puppet" territory n/t

[papau]

14. LOL - Nancy and you should jointly write the next "I don't hate Hillary/smear Hillary" post

[WillyToad]

115. How much moral judgement and insight does it take to alienate half the party?

By heaping abuse on them and driving them away? Obama supporters are so blinded by rage they cannot see that they have driven all of Hillary's supporters away, when they should be trying to bring them into the Obama fold. Anger clouds a persons sense of judgement.

[pipi_k]

120. Oh good grief!

Most Obama supporters are NOT "blinded by rage", even when Hillary has either done or said something incredibly stupid. At this point, I'm feeling rather sorry for her, to tell the truth. But rage? No.


And believe me, I know rage...I felt blind rage against this little criminal chimpanzee who's currently stinking up the White House. I felt it for at least six years, then it gradually turned into mixed feelings of disgust and "Thank God the stench will soon be gone" apathy.


Be that as it may, though, what sorts of things should Obama supporters be doing to "bring Hillary supporters into the fold"?

Are Hillary supporters so weak of mind and ego that they need personal invitations or else they'll run home pouting? If that's the case, then it's not about the Democratic candidate at all....it's about being able to blame his supporters for alienating you all.

"Oh gosh, I really and truly did want to support Obama, but you know, his supporters were such dickheads that I just couldn't vote for him"

That's such a load of bullshit, and something I'd expect from my four year old grandson, not a bunch of so-called "adults".

[haydukelives]

126. what are you talking about?

blinded by rage?
no comment

[HousePainter]

137. How do you suggest Obama should try to bring Hillary supporters back into the fold?

Perhaps by maintaining a complimentary public appreciation of her strength as a candidate, her historic effort in breaking through a big glass ceiling, on being an inspiration for females across America including his two young daughters ?
In giving her the benefit of the doubt and ascribing innocent intent to her increasingly more frequent questionable remarks?
In repeatedly stating that she would certainly be on anyone's short list for VP.

Oh Yeah...... exactly what he has been doing.

[pocoloco]

4. There are probably very few "long tine" Hillary haters.

It took all of the dems to get the Clintons through the 90's.

[KnaveRupe]

67. The only "long-time Hillary-Haters" around here...

...are all posting pro-Hillary, anti-Obama shit at the urging of one Rush Limbaugh. Actual Democrats - no matter how distasteful they may find the Clintons NOW - spent the last 15-and-a-half years defending them. The current criticisms are directly related to her current actions.

[WillyToad]

116. You have it completely backwards

Freepers, who have long had a pathological hatred of the Clinton family, are now gleefully joined by Obama supporters in openly spewing their hatred on this board. I know you wish that Limbaugh was relevent, in his attempt to take ownership of the nomination battle, but it just isnt so.

[KnaveRupe]

143. What are you talking about?

Even if you believe that the anti-Hillary sentiment around here of late rises to the level of "hatred", the thread I was replying to was about "LONG-TIME Hillary-haters".

I, like most other people around here who are disgusted by the current Clinton campaign, spent the better part of the last 16 years defending the Clintons from the above-mentioned Freeper-types. We've gotten into arguments at family gatherings, in the workplace, on local talk radio. We carried water for them, even when it was damned difficult. We believed Bill when he wagged his finger at us and said he had never had sexual relations with that woman. We looked stupid when it came out that he lied to us, and we STILL kept faith. We STILL argued in all those venues that impeachment wasn't warranted, and that the crime of perjury in a civil suit was not a "high crime or misdemeanor".

We cheered on Hillary's run for the Senate. Twice. Even though the RW tools were all screaming "carpetbagger!", we defended her run for a Senate seat in a state where she didn't reside because we BELIEVED she would be a damned good senator.

We were disappointed when she, like so many other Democrats voted for the IWR, but we forgave Kerry, and Edwards, and all the others who regretted that vote, and would have forgiven her as well, the minute she admitted it was a mistake. And even if she wasn't our FIRST choice for president this time around, most of us would have been proud to vote for her in the General if she was our nominee.

So, excuse the hell out of me, but referring to us as "LONG-TIME Hillary-haters" is stupid on its face. And it really, really pisses me off to hear it from the Hillaroids around here. My point was that the LONG-TIME Hillary haters aren't the rank and file DU members - the only LOG-TIME haters around here are the trolls.

All the Hillary hatred you see around here from the regulars is recent, and well-earned by the current Clinton campaign.

[grantcart]

5. This is not something that is out of the ordinary - just more outrageous

The common thread is that Hillary is trying too hard. The bosnia story - the truth was so great - successful operation by president allows first lady to visit war zone without fear of violence or snipers.

Here she had her "lets let all the primary states be a part of it and then we will talk"

It is like the "obliteration" remark she has to macho everything up.

Just not ready on Day One.

[eridani]

50. I believe, like you, that the real Hillary Clinton is quite good enough

All of this gilding the lily crap is what has gotten her into trouble.

[amb123]

6. No comment is necessary

This post says it all. Hillary did this to herself.

[fed_up_mother]

7. I agree!

I was an Edwards supporter (mainly for health care), but I always believed I could easily vote for Obama or Clinton.

Then, I became an Obama supporter, who could have easily voted for Clinton.

Now, I am an Obama supporter who hopes and prays I don't have to pinch my nose to vote for Clinton.

[BlooInBloo]

8. I used to defend her here on DU. Until a couple of months ago, of course.

[ladym55]

9. Another Rec

I suspect around DU you will find very few long-time Hillary haters. I think you will find many (like me) who are so incredibly disappointed in someone I had liked and respected for a long time. Hillary has run an absolutely appalling campaign.

I have felt like I've been watching an out-of-control ego since the opening of her campaign in Ohio with her "Shame on you!" sound byte.

Today is just another moment in a long line of moments that have left me sick at heart.

Thanks again, Nance, for saying what so many of us feel so very eloquently.

[SaveAmerica]

10. I hear you sister, but you scared me. I thought YOU were abandoning all hope...

5 more months until we vote...help me make it through the night.

[phrigndumass]

11. My emotions about her comments today are very raw this evening ...

and it is extremely difficult to keep myself from "crossing that line" into hatred. I'm still on the verge of tears at the historical aspect of it all.

Thanks for posting this, Nance. Your words tonight have helped me see that line, and I am struggling to back away from it.

[Adams Wulff]

13. Well said, (as usual).

Another great post.

I don't hate her either, and I used to just wish she'd go away.

Now, I'm insisting she go away.


Thanks, Nance. Love your work, Hope to see you in Denver!:toast:

[Prophet 451]

15. Thank you, Nance

You articulated exactly what I was feeling and did so with more calm and grace than I would be able to muster right now.

[TimothyChase]

35. Me too!

I agree with Prophet -- you did beautifully. You treated the subject with a great deal of respect and demonstrated that there is a large body of evidence in support of the quite rational conclusion that Hillary has remained in the contest for far too long -- given all that she has done.

PS I signed up at the DU just so that I could post this "Me too!"

Honestly -- it was fab -- and written in just the right spirit. Truly, genuinely ethical and rational.

Thank you!

[Krakowiak]

101. welcome to DU neighbor!

[mmm413]

16. I'm not a Hillary hater or a big Obama fan.

BUT. Truly, Hillary doesn't have "vast political experience." Before getting her Senate seat, her only other experience was being First Lady in the midst of the Richard Mellon Scaife "Arkansas Project" BS. Now THAT'S what offends me. Sitting down with that psycho and EXPLAINING herself? I will be the first to admit that she has nothing more than ambition to push her along. Electing her would be electing McCain at his Alzheimer's worst. She doesn't deserve the Presidency. She has done nothing to deserve it. If I were Obama, there would be no way I'd offer her the VP spot, b/c we'd see Bill (who we all used to love) right in her ear. I used to think she'd be great on the Supreme Court, but once again, Bill can't keep his yap shut. The problem really is "two for the price of one" now. She can't be an ambassador, because what (or who) will Bill do in a foreign country?

What Hillary was saying today was that the primary campaign isn't over in June. Bill's wasn't. And RFK's wouldn't have been if he hadn't been shot. That's all she meant. The campaign isn't over. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. Keith Olbermann did a special comment tonight that was so offensive. Of course, we cannnot ever imagine that a candidate is just fucking tired and misspeaks. Because we cannot have our officials be tired.

[sybylla]

24. "Of course, we cannnot ever imagine that a candidate is just fucking tired and misspeaks"

I'm sure it will be much easier once she wins the presidency. I mean, that job is a piece of cake compared to campaigning. Heck, we won't have to worry at all about her saying offensive and stupid things when she gets tired and stressed out.

[Carolina]

78. no, what Hillary said channeled her wishes

and it wasn't the first time so it was not a gaffe that can be absolved or excused as the result of exhaustion.

Keith Olberman was absolutely right in pointing out all the other offensive things she has said or done in this campaign that have turned many of us -- former ardent Clinton supporters -- against her.

Her campaign is over! That's why she is behaving even more desperately and despicably, and that's why her words were truly over the top.

[earthlover]

133. how about at 3AM?

Can you imagine the fun the Reps would have if Hillary got the nomination pointing out her 3AM bragging alongside her many goofs "explained" by her being too tired? It doesn't take an Einstein to see how fatal this would be for her in november. That doesn't even take into consideration her Tuzla comments, her endorsement of McCain....

I really cannot remember a candidate who has made so many goofs. I would suggest she take some afternoon naps or something so she doesn't get so worn out.

[NJSecularist]

17. This post is proof positive of the theory that quantity is better than quality.

Never has a person wrote so much and meant so little.

[sellitman]

32. It's time you disappear.

You are not even amusing anymore.


*Poof*

[livingmadness]

54. The posts you offer don't even come close to the class of Nance's posts

Not even in the same ballpark.

[NanceGreggs]

56. Well, I for one ...

... am happy to know that now that Hillary's campaign is officially dead-and-buried, the outside trolls who have switched sides between Obama and Hillary (depending on which side can sling the most discord at any given moment) will have no reason to be here any longer.

Isn't that something we can both agree on?

[Kittycat]

94. Amen!

Thank you Nance for delivering another solid thought for us to be a part of.

[butterfly77]

104. K&R

[roseBudd]

87. This post is proof positive of the theory that 1 or 2 sentence HRC supporter posts are crap

[beac]

105. You clearly don't even know the adage....

by your mis-interpretation, you have basically said that her post is wonderful--- which it is.

We don't "hate" Hillary. We question how a woman who claims to have such vast experience in all areas of politics and diplomacy can consistently and regularly exercise such abominably poor judgement.

You don't have to "hate" someone to feel that they do not posess the characteristics that a successful President needs.

[Bigleaf]

18. You are terrific with words! Another beautiful post. K&R

[madamesilverspurs]

19. No hate here.

But there is an unpleasant taste lurking. I had been thinking that some of her over-the-line comments seemed a bit desperate, born perhaps of the the profound disappointment of her historical moment being transferred to someone else. But the shocked gasps elicited by this one utterance testify to the need for all of us to accept that her hour has indeed passed. And, judging by the look on her face as she expressed her regret for the comment, she might well have begun to emerge from her own denial.

[rasputin1952]

20. I have said often enough that neither candidate has lit the fire in

me that would have me go fully into their camp. I've been on the sidelines for quite some time considering where we've landed at, but some of the recent events have tipped the scales, the "gaffe" today has really gotten under my skin.

I have lived through the Kennedy assassinations, the attempts on the lives of George wallace, Gerald Ford and Reagan, Martin Luther King as well as others who have been, or nearly been ushered through Death's Door at the hands of those who would think that murder is the way to "correct" a perceived wrong.

Assassination is a topic that should be discussed, but rationally and in context of the act, it should not be tossed out frivolously nor should it be used as a political vehicle. I have no comprehension of what HRC was thinking, (if she was thinking), when she tossed out the little gem that not only has us in an uproar, but the RW yahoo's are having a field day w/this. To be honest, to me the RW can't do much right, but they sure can chase a something down and run it into the ground when given the bait.

I think that HRC is a remarkable individual. She has shown us that a woman can take on the challenges that have faced women for longer than I can remember, and can do it with intelligence and dignity. But the flaws have become apparent in this particular woman. Politics has always been a blood-sport, for the rest of my life, I don't expect to see that change; but there are limits and lines that should never be crossed. Limbaugh's cheap hint at riots in Denver stands out, as does some of the other tripe the RW puts out there. But we are supposedly of a "higher standard", and when one of our own drags the bar down to street level, it is time to look realistically at just how we got to this point.

HRC has lost the 3's required to move on to the nomination, she knows this, we know this. By bringing death into the arena, she has created a new low, and if anything, she will lose more delegates, (Super or not), and the bell has tolled. She will continue on, I'm a fighter, so I can relate to how she feels, but there have been times when I've had to pack up my bags and move on, she should do this as well.

My intent is not to "bash HRC, but to hold up the reality that there is a time when people can go too far, and the lack of judgment in stepping over the boundary shows me a serious lack of skill in the political expertise that one who would be PoTUS should have.

It is sad to see this happening, but happen it has. It has become apparent to me that she has moved into desperation mode, and that is a mode that no one who would run for PoTUS should go into. The good people of NY will most likely elect her back into the Senate, and I believe she can be a power for good there. I do not believe she would make a good president.

[Muttocracy]

30. nice post

thought I don't agree about NY. She's got a lot of work to do before her reelection. I'm also not at all convinced she cares about the stepping stone state anymore.

[beac]

107. True

It will be interesting to see if she runs for re-election, now that her aspirations for 2012 should be all but quashed.

Did she really want to "serve" the people of NY (and by extension the country) or was it all about resume-plumping?

[wiggs]

42. If she were to govern like she has campaigned and voted, she definitely would not

make a good president.

I agree.

[MadMaddie]

132. That is an important point...the other is who she chose to

surround herself with during her campaign...if these are the type of people she picks for her campaign what could we expect of who she would pick if she were president. This country cannot afford any more hacks in leadership positions in government organizations....Brownie, Condi Rumsfeld, Gonzalez....and the list is never ending.

[Beregond2]

21. Another fine post.

As usual, you have summed-up my thoughts perfectly. I spent years defending Hillary to anyone who cared to listen. As recently as a year ago, I defended her to a co-worker who was appalled at the idea of her as president.

My feelings toward her began to cool a bit when I tried to read her autobiography. I say "tried" because I found it unreadable. There was something about her "voice" as a writer that was extremely off-putting. It made me...uneasy.

Then the endless run-up to her decision whether or not to run got on my nerves. I felt she was being coy and manipulative. But I figured she was enjoying being wooed, when clearly she had no intention of running. How could she? Who knew better than she the contempt in which she was held by the right? They had spent a decade building-up a deep and abiding loathing of her among their followers. Clearly, the only way a Republican was going to win the White House after eight years of Dubya was if Hillary was the Democratic nominee. Whatever her ambitions, she had to know that a try for the presidency by her would be a catastrophe for the party and for America. It was the one thing that would motivate the right wing to vote in their millions for whoever the Republicans chose to ran. They would move heaven and earth to defeat her.

And then, she announced her candidacy. I was stunned. What could she be thinking? How could she be so irresponsible? At that moment my respect for her disappeared. And then, the media's attempt to brainwash the electorate into believeing her nomination was
a given, that all other candidates were fooling themselves, only added to my frustration.

But luckily, one candidate had learned the lessons of the past few years, Barack Obama. Suddenly there was hope that a candidate who was actually electable might have a chance.

And what was Hillary's reaction? We all know. One of the most vile, disloyal, dishonest, incompetent and completely selfish campaigns in history. And it all came to a head today with her disgusting comment about assasination.

So no, I did not start out with any bad feelings toward her. She has earned them, step by step.

[Muttocracy]

31. nice post yourself. nt

[Barb in Atl]

22. Karmic

From my limited understanding, one of the reasons that Senator Clinton stayed in the race was for just such an occurrance as today. Some major league verbal spew that would propel one candidate to the nomination, ending the chances of the other. I NEVER expected it to be her.

Secondly, some folks (not me because I don't speculate about folks personal relationships - I don't know and don't care) have said that she stayed married to Bill just for this political opportunity.

And this one AMAZINGLY stupid comment pretty much ends it.

[dbmk]

23. When I made my first post here

.. I stated that Obama was my favourite, but that Hillary would do very fine too.

That started to changed shortly after that.

And the thing that switched me off was the "as far as I know" comment. I saw it as a sign that there is some place in her soul that has been corrupted deeply by political ambitions and/or perhaps personal experiences. A rotten place from where the Bosnia story also originated and now this.

It is not all she is, far from it. But I am confident it exists and that she does not have it under control.

[suffragette]

25. There was so much potential and possibility here

and that's what makes this especially disappointing.

She had the opportunity to run a campaign that could have helped shift us away from attack tactics to thoughtful and powerful discourse about issues. She chose not to take that road.

Now she's made too many wrong turns and is lost, just driving down some alley toward a dead end.

[rebel with a cause]

43. The moment she began with the "white speak"

was the moment I knew she would stoop to any level to get what she wanted. And yes, I recognized it before most people did. It's a language I know well because I grew up with it. Some of her supporters still do not believe she has done anything wrong, but someday something will happen to make them sorry that they did not see it. I know I feel that way about all the times that I fought for her and Bill from 1994 to a few years ago when I became a recluse. Don't talk to too many people now, and that is okay with me.

[suffragette]

112. She had the opportunity to run a tough, but respectful campaign

One that could have united us more and left us, whichever the nominee, with two strong candidates we would all be proud to back. And if she had not come out the winner in that, she would have still had many people pulling for her to have a leadership position in the Senate or Cabinet. John Edwards gave a good example of how that's done.

For me, the moment that shifted was when she did the whole reject/denounce bit in the February debate. It seemed petty, clutzy and underhanded to me and Obama's demeanor in calmly and ably deflecting it impressed me.

[seaglass]

26. Why does it matter how long you've hated? It only matters that the hate exists. n/t

[dmr]

95. Why does the word hate have to enter the picture?

Speaking for myself, I have never hated anyone in my life until George W. Bush* showed his true character, or lack thereof.

I have always admired Hillary Clinton, and used her as a role model to young family members & friends. I can no longer do that.

I have never spoken an ill word about any Democrat on this board of which I've been a member since its opening day. I don't like airing anything that would give the GOP ammo. It was not easy for me to make that first post voicing my feelings against someone I once respected.

I don't hate Hillary, but I don't trust her. She ran an intellectually dishonest campaign. That is what the Republicans do. I abhor that.

The last straw was Hillary praising REPUBLICAN McCain in the same breath she discredited her DEMOCRATIC opponent. After near 8 long years of Republican rule that divided our country and our families; where civil liberties have waned; good men and women have died and critically injured, both emotionally and physically; where so much disaster has occurred under the Republican watch - that for a prominent and promising Democrat to use her stance to diminish another Democrat's chances while promoting the Republican is unforgivable.

This affected me so badly, it made me physically ill. I had to take time away from politics because my stomach was in knots and it affected my sleep. How could I trust someone to not only replace the Imperial disaster currently in power, but correct the changes made within our governmental agencies that he and his politically motivated appointees forced upon us? If simple DNC rules aren't convenient for Hillary to follow, how can I be sure she will not follow the same path of the oath Bush* has refused to honor, and who finds creative ways not to be held accountable?

I don't hate Hillary. I hate her behavior in this race, and I hate the DLC, of which she is a leader - but I do not hate its members.

Politics is rough, and it's sickening at times.

It has nothing to do with hate. That would be too easy.

It boils down to who can I trust more at this point.

[AZBlue]

27. I'm not a "long-time Hillary hater" because I actually used to like her!

I actually looked forward to her campaign and her run for the President. I actually used to respect her.

Well said!! K&R

[CaliforniaPeggy]

28. My dear Nance...

I must agree, though I do so sadly...

It's always a shame when a leader falls...

Especially when it's one we had such high hopes for...

Thank you for articulating our views so perfectly, as always!

K&R

[Swamp Rat]

29. I did not like her IWR vote, but I did support her role as a centrist in the senate.

Then, starting last February, my opinion of her went south.

Now, I would join a campaign to unseat her from the senate.

[calimary]

33. Another great one, Nance!

I'm not a Hillary-hater, either. But the whole thing just saddens me.

This makes me so sad. What a body blow. She probably should bow out now, just to salvage whatever might be left. I don't know how one salvages this, really. Granted perhaps the reaction here is a little over the top, but what's being reacted to was, also.

I'm an Obama supporter. But I've long been a Hillary Clinton admirer. And yes, for that matter, I think she's probably BEYOND sleep-deprived by now. But this makes me very sad. The whole nasty business makes me So. Fucking. SAD.

[David Zephyr]

34. K&R.

I'm not as generous with the Clintons as you are. They have damaged our party. West Virginia and Pennsylvania was it for me. Today's "gaffe" was as Symbolman says "freudian".

The Clintons are toxic.

[Tom Rinaldo]

36. Every so often something happens that puts me in contact with the fact

that I still have traces of core Christian values left inside me. I still believe in the power of redemption. Hillary Clinton has lived inside politics for so long that politics now lives inside her. There's a classic novel from the 60's; "I've been down so long it looks like up to me". I wrote elsewhere here tonight that today might be Hillary's final wake up call. Hopefully it provides her a clear point of reference for just how far she's drifted while viewing the world through a political lens. Her inability to intuit how profoundly unsettling her comment would sound to those of us who walk through life without plotting every step shows how out of touch she, exasperated no doubt by stress and fatigue, has become from the reality that most of us without a career in politics live in daily. Hillary needs to do some soul searching, not because she's evil, but because her political mission has begun to drive her rather than the other way around.

[RiverStone]

37. She reminds me of a marathon runner pushed past exhaustion...

She knows not what she does and has lost touch with the pavement.

My wish for her is she finds the grace to let her campaign die with some dignity intact.

There really is no need for such the lynch mob today, she is already off life support.

Obama is our nominee.

Very soon, Hillary will be yesterday's news and our focus will be on beating McCain.

Very, very soon...

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. Good metaphor. n/t

[eridani]

51. Good point. Has her campaign staff kept her too isolated?

Might be. I just hope there is someone who could possibly act against the others on this--I mean, they can't ALL be Mark Penn types, correct?

[Catherina]

65. Well said

I disliked some things about the Clintons but didn't see much of a difference between her and Obama when my state voted so I didn't bother voting. I even advised friends silly enough to ask for my opinion, to vote for Hillary because I had reservations about Obama.

In the last few months, I realized how how far out of touch she is. At first it amused me, then it pained me, now it's really concerning me. Even now, I don't believe she's evil or personally racist. I can't vouch for political ruthlessness though because it takes a special type of personality to run for President and I put nothing past any politician but she's so out of touch that it's solidly frightening me now.

I feel no joy in watching her self-destruct but I'm growing increasingly concerned for her mental stability. I think she's genuinely hurt and genuinely confused at the unfairness of it all but I'm genuinely concerned about her inability to understand why.

This probably doesn't make much sense. It's hard for me to articulate my sadness over what could have been and what is.

[CaptJasHook]

39. GD/P nay-sayers better get used to the blood

Hillary wants to fight dirty with the backing of the DLC, her long-time donor buddies and the Washington insider crowd.

She continues the blood-sport and a bunch of DU whiners want the rest of us Progressives, activists and unity lovers to sit down and STFU.

As that idiot Rambo once said, she "drew first Blood" and second and third and just keeps trying to bleed Obama to death.

[crickets]

40. Thank you.

Nance, I've never told you how much I enjoy and look forward to your posts. I didn't "enjoy" this one, but I'm very glad you wrote it. Yours is a persuasive voice of thoughtful reason. Well done.

[swishyfeet]

41. Thanks Nance. I appreciate the break from flaming outrage.

[Triana]

44. I'm not a "long-time Hillary Hater" either. I was fine with her until a few months ago..

...when she started her politically mercenary Republican-like campaign tactics - against another Dem no less and within her own party. And, she went downhill from there in her behavior and my regard and respect for her went right with it.

It is STRICTLY HER behavior that got me here. NOT anyone else's, even her supporters. Just HERS.

[rebel with a cause]

45. This post is for you Nance.

I trust Obama because I met him and talked with him in 2004 when he was running for the senate here in Illinois. He came into small towns where most candidates do not bother to campaign, because mainly all they need is the Chicago vote. But he came and he treated us like we were just as important as anyone.

I trust Obama because he never lied to us to get elected. He told us what he would work toward, and what was beyond his reach as a freshman Senator. If anything, he has done more than he promised us.

I trust Obama because when he spoke to me, he looked me in the eyes and really listened to what I said, me a nobody who was without income and no political power. He then spoke to my concerns. If he agreed with me, he said so. If he disagreed, he said so and explained why. He did not disrespect me.

I did not look in his eyes and see his soul, as one Hillary supporter accused me of the other day, but I did listen carefully to what he said, watched his reaction to the people he spoke to, etc.

Do I think he is perfect and unable to make a mistake, heck no. I saw a few flaws in him, but they were so unimportant that I won't give voice to them. In fact, my daughter told me that what I saw as flaws were really things he needed to make it in this race. After this primary, I have to agree with her.

edited for typos

[NanceGreggs]

46. Thank you so much for sharing that ...

In the blind rage I've found myself in tonight, you've reminded me that someone very special is on our side - just as we're on his.

Thanks :hi:

[rebel with a cause]

48. de nada.

and you are welcome. Anytime. :pals:

[Catherina]

66. I'm not sure how much I trust Obama.

I trust him SOME for his ability to connect, his understanding of the bad shape this country is in and WHY. As concerns Hillary, all I know is that I don't trust her, not one bit. I'm a bit bitter about the war and other issues. Her presidential campaign dramatically lowered my opinion of her.

With every passing day, my faith in Obama increases however.

[rebel with a cause]

121. You have to decide this for yourself

I am not going to try to push anyone to believe in him if they don't feel it for themselves. I can only tell people what I saw when I enteracted with him, and how he struck me. Everytime I hear/read on the MSM that he has a problem with white people, older white women in particular, I think of the old ladies here in SI that traveled to Chicago to see him and Michelle, and all over the state to work for him. They were part of the group that encouraged him to run for the senate here, and they volunteered with me in his headquaters. If things were different (I am not going to say how) I wonder if he would still be having that problem.

[eridani]

47. A quick Journal survey for anyone who thinks Nance has always been--

--a "Hillary Hater." Find some of it. Double dog dare you.

ttp://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=1076&page=3
Perspective
Jan 4, 2008

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=1076&page=4
Hey, Guys, It's All Good!
Jan 3, 2008

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=1076&page=6
Why I Cannot Vote in 2008
Oct 6, 2007

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=1076&page=9
I Don't Care
Jul 17, 2007

[Divine Discontent]

52. Is this Keith Olbermann?

Amazing, but I know you don't like hearing that so much, so I will say... pretty good. :)

On a serious note - she opened that door you referenced, and inside it was her darkest nightmare - I believe she has FINALLY been undone by her own doing.

Sometimes, one's conscience will lead one to do something that in the end is realized to be something that was a needed action -

Someone needed to end her campaign - she had lost to Obama, yet she was refusing to be graceful about it and step down - and without grace she went into the dark night and did it herself with one collective thud! I feel sadness for her at this point. I had anger at her today. I feel she has went from being someone I held up with high regards - to being someone that sounded more like Ann Coulter than the former First Lady - and for that I truly am sad for her. She has to know it is over tonight.


I won't say, "If she has any sensibility about herself she will end this on Tuesday", because I know better, so I'm hoping Chelsea will say, "Mom, you did the best you could, now get out there and show them you're not what they think of you, and help beat John McCain!"

[butterfly77]

109. I have been thinking the same thing...

is this Keith Olbermann?

[Divine Discontent]

136. Sure sounds as poetic. :) EOM

[Rayjay]

111. Is this Keith Olbermann

I like your suggested conversation between Chelsea & HRC. For Hillary to remain politically viable her best bet is, after Jun 3, get out there and work her butt off for Obama. This is her best way to recapture some of the political "capital" she has lost.

[Divine Discontent]

135. thank you, Rayjay, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[livingmadness]

55. Great post Nance

as can be expected from you. Thoughtful, well argued, articulate. You, Grantcart, and Frenchiecat are 3 big reasons why I keep coming to DU so a heartfelt thanks to all of you. I would be mad, if I didn't find the whole damn thing just sad, at this point. Sad, sad, sad.

[Why Syzygy]

57. I view her as a neo-con freeper. I'm beyond "hate".

I don't hate freepers. I just avoid them like a plague.

[Mimosa]

58. I always saw what Hillary and Bill were about: absolute power and money

Because I did not like or admire the Clintons back in the 1990s, some of my longtime leftist friends would call me a conservative or stuff like that.

I then saw what many posters on DU are awakening to: the Clintons were and are opportunists who play wedge issue politics for their own purposes. In office in the 90s they did not accomplish a lot. Because they did not pursue healthcare reform after Hillary's initial debacle, we are even more messed up and healthcare has become less affordable for many. During the last Clinton term, jobs hemorrhaged out of the USA. NAFTA and the loss of jobs has led to poverty and hopelessness in rural areas and our inner cities.

And there was Waco, which was very scary and set the stage for government warfare against 'fringe groups.' Eventually anybody who is different can be labeled a threat to the state almighty.

Yes, I do believe Hillary had a lot to do with the selections of Bill's cabinet members and was deeply involved in governing. The Clintons had their turn. Now it's time for somebody who's really new, with new ideas, to take the helm.

[democrank]

59. Here`s where I stand on Hillary Clinton....

I`ve been on Clinton`s side for years. That`s over. For good.

Yesterday wasn`t the first time Clinton used this assassination angle, so nobody should use the teeny, accidental gaffe excuse. Clinton and her twin, Karl Rove, are the most calculating schemers in American politics. Nothing they do is accidental. Win at all cost. That`s the goal.

[rebel with a cause]

122. Your just a sexist! (satire comment warning.)

Anyone that doesn't like Hillary or thinks she can make a mistake is just a sexist. It doen't matter what you do in you life, you just prove you have sexist tendons by not supporting this perfect woman. Obama is a man and because he is winning, he is a sexist and pure evil. He said the word "bitter" so that makes him an elitist and probably a sexist, but Hillary has nothing wrong in her use of the word assassination. She did not misspeak and she said exactly what she meant, and that was that she was putting herself in RFK's place and was pointing out he was running in June. There was no confusion at all in either of her statements. Everyone who says her statement was unclear is just a sexist. :sarcasm:

I need an exorcist. They are trying to take over my brain. ;) Actually this is much what I was told last night by a Clintonite, only I didn't use sexist in my speech as much as they did.

Update/edit: I may have gone over the line here but since I am not allowed to get angry or feel anxious, my outlet is through humor. I recently laughed and joked my way through two surgeries and many humiliating check-ups. And if I offend anyone, they can just put me on their ignore list, like I am now to certain ones.

[mythyc]

60. I'm getting sick of your threads

bogarting all the good rhetoric and sense.... :D you said it perfectly Nance:

But at this point, I admit to being as close to hatred as is humanly possible without crossing that line – despite a line which was crossed today by someone who, campaigning on her vast political experience, is in a position to know full well where that line is drawn, and how much of your self-respect, your dignity as a human being, and your political soul you have to be willing to abandon in order to step across it.

If Hillary truly had any political savvy, any ability to foresee the dire consequences of her words and actions, any common sense - all qualities one would need to lead a nation - she displayed her total lack thereof when she blindly entered the doorway that was clearly marked, "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here".

experience my ass....

[NanceGreggs]

61. All night long I've been thinking ...

... that if I posted what I really thought, without any regard to what type of language or sentiments expressed are acceptable on this website, my tomb-stoning would have been so quick and merciless, I would have been a DU legend before midnight.

I congratulate myself, and others, for our ability to weigh the consequences of our words before speaking them in a public forum - a trait which one might hope for in a presidential nominee.

[geiger]

75. I had a change of heart actually after hearing her express regret yesterday

and took pity on her. Then I started to think about how unfeeling she seems to be about any matter that does not directly impact her ambition: Of course she would have had the Kennedys on her mind, and, of course she was only thinking about history in the obtuse sense.

And, even if you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, as I did last night after watching her finally go out in a regretful manner and address another dumb comment.... she's lied so much already in this campaign, you can't blame people who are sincerely outraged by the continued escalation of her use of language to try to further her own means.

I held out on deciding to support Obama, actually, until the negative attacks and lies began and my twelve year turned his adamant Hillary support to Obama, (she may be her own worst enemy), and until I saw and heard John Kerry's endorsement speech (http://www.johnkerry.com) and sensed his simultaneous hope and anger, and how he, too, was now going to begin fighting back, (maybe partly to make up for the last time he did not?;), but seeing the negative attacks (divisiveness, he characterized it) clearly for what it was and against a fellow Party member. From the accounts I have read, Ted Kennedy, quickly thereafter, became enraged, about her "it takes a President" when it comes to civil rights legislation (not just a rabble rouser).

[backscatter712]

62. K&R

You put it much better than I could!

Anytime I get this angry, I blow a fuse and that makes it impossible for me to express myself this way.

[Major Hogwash]

63. Her inclusion of the assassination of RFK today was absolutely the worst comment I have ever heard

from anyone running to be the president of the United States.

It was unusally callous considering the seizure that Ted Kennedy suffered this week. I have no idea what level she intends to sink to before dropping out of the race, but if there is a bottom to her campaign, I hope she finds it in the next week or so.

[cboy4]

70. Really Major Hogwash.....I had no idea you were a

presidential historian.

"...from ANYONE running to be president of the United States."

Maybe you can entertain us by citing some of the worst comments you've heard over the past couple hundred years?

****crickets***** in advance.

[symbolman]

71. You used to be a lot of fun

until you decided to be A Know-it-All Needy Prick.. What the fuck happened to you?

You stir this place up like its your personal Ant Farm while trying to have it both ways at every turn.. I'm suprised anyone listens to you at all, all the ignore lists you must be on, tsk, tsk..

Major Hogwash tells it like it is, and sticks up for his friends while at it, the only one I see You sticking up for is your own damned Self..

Get off the High Horse Already. And don't bother answering because you've finally shit the bed enough with me by going after Major and shitting all over Nances thoughtful thread to be tossed in my Ignore Dungeon like a sack of stale potatoes..

Buh bye now..

[cboy4]

77. No, actually I decided to be a Try-to-Provide balance

at a forum that's been overtaken by Obama fans at proverbial gunpoint.

Most Hillary supporters have been bullied away, so I'm going to write whatever I feel like writing, Symbolman, to balance things out.

And can I tell you just how devastated I am that I'm on your ignore list.

I may lose a whole nanosecond of sleep tonight. :eyes:

[Major Hogwash]

88. Yeah, I'm quite a history buff, sonny. Guess you didn't know that. Now you do.

So, you can go back to your x-box game and become the x-box hero you've always wanted to be.

[cboy4]

97. As I said:

******CRICKETS******

[JackCo]

64. K & R

Wonderful post Nance that echos my thoughts exactly.

[indimuse]

68. The Obama peeps,

The Obama peeps are wailing about this becausethey have to have something to distract the public from their candidate’s obvious shortcomings. This is a massive case of projection on their part, since they’re the ones who specialize in issuing death threats to people who don’t worship The Precious. They are the ones who’ve said that some super delegate should beat and/or kill Hillary to get her out of the race. They’ve been using violent imagery to describe what should be done to her for so long that such vicious rhetoric no longer causes consternation on the Obama blogs. Yet an unexceptional historical comment by Clinton is suddenly an assassination threat! Well, they should know what one looks like since they’ve been issuing them against Clinton for months!!

You can bet that asshole DOlbermann will feign outrage about this, despite the fact that he himself made that vile comment about Clinton being beaten into submission. Just as you can be certain that the blogs where Clinton hatred has been taken to violent extremes will be the most ostentatiously outraged. Funny how the hypocritical bastards were absolutely silent when their own comrades indulged in disgusting attacks on Clinton.
snip

If Obama is half the man he claims...HE would apologize to Hillary!

[Renaissance Man]

79. You're a nut!

Right. HE should apologize to Hillary for Hillary implying that she would continue to campaign in the event that HE was assassinated?

Get a psychological evaluation.

[Rose Siding]

80. This OP is about the candidates words, not those of her "comrades"

What, you want an address from Obama along the lines of "I'm so sorry about comments made by spek-o-dust and lollypoopers"?

[Mooney]

85. "If Obama is half the man he claims...HE would apologize to Hillary!"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

That's rich. Hillary fucked up, all by herself.

[indepat]

69. By the body of her work solely in this campaign, one could draw the conclusion that HRC is

completely lacking in sound judgment and maybe humanity too.

Edited: context

[Lady-Damai]

72. You're always awesome. GREAT POST!

:)

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. Great post!!!!!

[Carolina]

74. Excellent post

[JerseygirlCT]

76. As usual, Nance, you said it perfectly

I completely agree.

I have come to my distrust only through this campaign. I spent years arguing with people who seemed to have completely irrational dislike for her.

Her behavior, and nothing else, has changed my mind. I begin to wonder if some of those people who disliked her so were just seeing things I wasn't then.

Another theme running through her campaign has been her inability to truly and sincerely apologize when she's said or done hurtful or stupid things. This just confirms for me that we're dealing with a person with very deep-seated character flaws, who is truly more interested in her own ambition than in what's best for the country. Who is not willing to truly lead.

How sad that is.

[Seabiscuit]

81. Hey! Aren't you the one they call the "long-time Hillary-hater"?

:evilgrin:

[LucyParsons]

82. I'm a proud long-time Hillary "hater"

I don't hate her personally or wish her ill will, but she's come off as transparently ambitious, duplicitous, and devoid of integrity to me for as long as I can remember.

She cynically lied for Bill repeatedly to cover up his personal failings, so that she could ride his coattails into power. She knew she was lying on 60 Minutes in 1992. We knew, and she knew. Just like the uncomfortable tax return exchange during the debate.

She cynically acted as a founding member of the DLC, whose purpose is to sell out both the DNC and the USA to the highest (foreign) bidder (which is ironic considering that so many conservative Americans have a virulent, irrational hatred of her because they think she's politically synonymous with Fidel Castro).

She cynically ran for the Senate in New York, because that's where she could get elected, despite having never even lived there before.

She cynically rushed to the "middle" (which is actually the right, IMHO) while in the Senate, so that she could set herself up for a presidential run.

She cynically voted for the Iraq War Resolution. I think, ultimately this is the main factor in her defeat, and certainly the representative defining moment of her political career. It sums up everything that's wrong with her as a candidate.

No need to re-list the litany of cynical campaign maneuvers we've all seen and Nance mentioned above.

I lived in Britain from 2001-2005, and I remember during Blair's last general election, I was so relieved I wasn't able to vote - because it was such a "lesser of the evils" proposition. I was conflicted, and felt that I probably wouldn't be able to make myself vote for cynical, Third Way, Clinton (then Bush) acolyte, warmongering-abroad and terrorist-appeasing-at-home Tony Blair.

I can't stand Hillary, and have said all along that I was very unsure as to whether I could ever cast a vote for her, either. Now? No way.

[Jackpine Radical]

83. So sad to watch Hillary's long, slow, spiralling plunge into the ground.

The woman carries the seeds of greatness, as does Bill. But both of them have a fatal flaw, a dedication to expediency. When their ship starts taking on water, they jettison the heaviest thing they can find in an effort to stay afloat. Unfortunately, they both find their ethics to be that heaviest thing.

I believe that Bill had decent liberal instincts at one time. But in the interest of retaining power through the Gingrich years, he violated his liberal precepts one after another, and ended up voting for NAFTA and pushing through Tommy Thompson-style welfare "reform," going to war in Bosnia under dubious circumstances, and continuing the low-grade war against Iraq throughout his years in power. The number of crimes subject to the death penalty increased during his reign, and he failed to end discrimination against gays in the military.

Even during her White House years, Hillary showed signs of her flaw. The most egregious example that comes to mind is the monstrosity she created and called a health plan. I think we're lucky it didn't pass. Remember Ross Perot's diagram? When laid out as a flow chart, Hillary's program looked like the circuit diagram for a Pentium chip. It looked like that because of all the compromises and sellouts to the health insurance industry that it contained. Yes the insurance industry sank it with their Harry & Louise campaign, but not before they had already negotiated it into a Frankenstein monster.

So, all-in-all, I do not look forward to the return of the Macbeths to the White House (even though I guess I would have to vote for them in preference to Voldemort).

[Shae]

91. Great post.

But wasn't Bill Clinton always for NAFTA? I seem to remember that was one thing that he and George H.W. Bush agreed on when he was campaigning in '92.

[Jackpine Radical]

99. You're right. He was. He came in supporting it.

I got that wrong. He finally pushed it through with a solid majority of Republicans & a minority of Dems.

[Utopian Leftist]

84. Her so-called "apology"

Her weak and disingenuous apology confirms that EXACTLY like Shrubya, the woman is incapable of self-examination, of acknowledging any error on her part and of truly repenting or atoning. She is, in essence, not only politically tone-deaf but psychologically unstable.

Yes, hate may be too strong of a word to bring into constructive political discourse. But pathology is not. And though I'm not qualified to present a psychological diagnosis, I find it hard at this point to believe that anyone could deny that her stance bears uncanny resemblance to that of a sociopath. And who in their right mind could tolerate, let alone look forward to another eight years of THAT?

[Laurab]

86. K&R Excellent post.

This is the "gaffe" Hillary has been waiting for. Of course she didn't expect it to come from HER, but she really needs to get out now, before she does any more damage. I am sickened by my Senator, and just want her to go away.

[Overseas]

89. Thank you for expressing how I have felt. //nt

[Shae]

90. Oh, you are so right on here . . .

I had planned to vote for Edwards, but he had just dropped out of the race.
I still considered voting for Edwards or even Kucinich (as I did in 2004), but since the race was still "on," and I felt I needed to vote for a candidate who was still running.
I liked Hillary. It was hardly more than a coin toss that made me pull the lever for Obama.
But after watching her over these three months since I made that decision, I KNOW I made the right choice. I am officially a "Hillary-hater" and it was the drip, drip, drip of all she's done since February 11th that made me so.
Now I just want her to go away --maybe retire to some remote little island, so I never have to hear her name again.

[L0oniX]

92. doorway...

[Patchuli]

93. Thank you Nance!

for putting into words succinctly exactly how I now feel about Hillary. I used to once actually admire her. It is her behavior that has changed my feelings during this campaign as well as how I now view Bill, based on his nasty behavior of late. It is somewhat sad but never ever was I a "Clinton hater" in any way. I have intended, as a loyal Democrat to support whichever candidate won the Democratic nomination. I still want President Gore after all! :loveya:

I hope your wise words will open some folks' minds that think we're just Hill-haters.

[KSinTX]

96. K&R.

:kick:

[LWolf]

98. I abandoned all hope last January,

when everyone else dropped out and left me with two candidates that I cannot, in good conscience, support.

I don't hate either one of them. I also cannot support them for POTUS.

Hope has been gone for months now.

[MadMaddie]

134. Soooooooo for clarification you are going to sit out in Nov or vote

for McCain who could tip the Supreme Court to an Extreme Right Court?

If that is the case then why are you here? Maybe you should go to a Lieberman site or better yet a McCain site.....I am very sure you will be welcome there.

[LWolf]

139. I've been here quite a bit longer than you, MaddieJoan,

and I really don't think it's your place to judge "why I'm here," or whether or not I "belong." Did someone appoint you the official "purger" for DU?

It's also not your place to decide who I'm going to vote for.

Why am I here? I've been here almost 6 years now. I found DU looking for a place that would oppose the Bush administration.

Suggesting that I would vote for McCain, or am a Lieberman supporter, is false. A blatant lying smear. Is that the way you usually join a conversation? Have you no manners, no conversational skills? I hope you're not planning to knock on doors for your candidate. That kind of campaigning is sure to lose votes.

What am I going to do in November? I've been absolutely transparent about that since before the primary season officially kicked off. After the convention, when there is an official nominee, I will consider my options. I will not "stay home." I'm 48 years old, and I've never not voted.

I will not be voting for the republican nominee. I'm 48 years old, and I've never not voted for a Democrat for president before.

The very fact that I may not cast that vote for the Democrat this time around ought to be a red flag, for those who care about the future of the party. I'll repeat: I'VE VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT FOR PRESIDENT SINCE THE FIRST YEAR I WAS OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE. I'VE NEVER NOT VOTED. If the two current candidates are centrist/corporatist enough to drive lifetime party voters away, the party ought to be taking notice.

That's a little more serious than whether or not I, or any other Democrat who objects to the nominee, will post on DU. When the nomination is official, there will be no more dissent on DU. Not because there is no dissent, but because the dissent will have been silenced on this board. It's foolish beyond measure to assume that dissent will "go away" in the real world because it disappears from an internet message board.

I don't have to make a final decision about what to do with my vote until election day. I may not decide until then. That's my right as a citizen. Since you are curious, I will probably take a close look at Cynthia McKinney. She's a great choice for someone who wants to bridge the race/gender divide this debacle of a primary has become, and for someone who prefers to vote for a real liberal rather than a corporatist.

Happily, I don't have to, and won't, make any final decisions about my vote for another 3 - 5 months.

Of course, I am not now suggesting, and will not be suggesting, that anyone at DU agree with me, or make the same choice I make in the fall. I'm also not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with me "go somewhere else." :eyes:

When the nomination is official, I will reserve anything I have to say about the election on DU to the effort to oust my republican senator, which is where most of my focus will be anyway. Anything I have to say about the presidential election will be said outside of DU.

DU is more than a presidential election site. There are plenty of conversations that are not about the presidential election, and I'll still be present for those.

[MadMaddie]

140. First of all LWolf it's not MaddieJoan it's MadMaddie you have

me mixed up with someone else.

Secondly, in your previous post "I also cannot support them for POTUS", you leave the reader a couple of thoughts you won't be voting, you are voting Repug, you are voting Libertarian, or some other option.

I did not tell you how you were voting, I asked for clarifiation. No one has ever squashed dissent on the board....for dissent does make a healthy Democratic society.

And yes DU is a place to have other topics of conversation....but today all of our focus must be on ridding ourselves of the Republican plague that has devasted our country for the last 23 years....back to the day of Nixon...

We are ultimately all saying the same thing, we maybe expressing it differently but we all know the ramifications if we do not get the Repugs out of government.

[LWolf]

141. My apologies, Maddie.

MadMaddie, that is. There is a MaddieJoan, but I haven't talked with her, or you, much. I must have seen one of her posts shortly before reading yours.

Getting republicans out of office is an important agenda. That's why I'll probably put most of my focus, and support, into ousting Gordon Smith. He's vulnerable this year.

I don't think that replacing a republican with a centrist corporate Democrat really benefits people in the long run. It simply legitimizes what we would have opposed under a republican, because now it's a Democrat doing those things.

That's the source of my opposition to both HRC and Obama.

[MadMaddie]

142. No worries....I totally understand your opinion

I hope that you and your state can unseat Gordon Smith.

In WA we have Dave "Aka...took 20 years to catch the Green River Killer" Reichart to unseat....we have a very good chance...since he has stood by * every step of the way...

[LWolf]

144. Those are two important races to weigh in on.

Replacing both of them with a Democrat will be a step in the right direction.

I'd like to replace my republican rep in Congress, too, but that's a longshot; he's got a comfortable margin of support in this district. Still, I'll be giving the local guy who has challenged Greg Walden all the support I can.

Between campaigning for Merkley to beat Smith, and to defeat Greg Walden, I won't spend the time or money campaigning for a candidate I'm not happy with. I think the Democrat, whomever it turns out to be, will safely win Oregon with or without me.

[nichomachus]

100. I was looking forward to supporting her --

I knew very little about Obama -- and she lost me, while he impressed me. I base that on the personal conduct of both candidates (not on their supporters here) and on what I saw as the efficiency and worthwhileness of their campaigns.

I would have hoped Hillary would use Rovian tactics against the GOP nominee, but I never expected her to use them against a fellow Democrat. In fact, I would have applauded her for fighting fire with fire in the GE. But Obama's campaign and his campaign rhetoric have been impressive, while hers has been slimy. It was Hillary and her supporters who dug out and peddled the filth about Rev. Wright, and their only regret was that they didn't dig it up sooner when it could have done her more "good."

The ineptness of her campaign will spawn a slew of books of "what went wrong." It was hers for the taking and she blew it at every turn in the road.

I will vote against the GOP in November, but if Hillary is the candidate, that is the last support she will get from me. She's on her own. I think I'm not alone. If she gets into office, and the GOP unleashes their attack dogs, which they will, she and Bill will find precious little support. They will be on their own. Too many people supported them the last time, after being lied to, and were left with their own credibility damaged. You don't pull that crap twice on a professional politician.

[kentj44]

102. be honest with you

i think hil. had a terrible campaign,i think the people that ran her show did a horrible job,they didnot serve her well,i believe she is better then what we have seen,i would liked a obamer/clinton ticket with bill in south africa as the ambassador.

[butterfly77]

103. My thoughts exactly!

[NC_Nurse]

106. I think a lot of us here feel unjustly called "Hillary Haters". It seems you can't

criticize anything she has said or done in this campaign without being accused of throwing mud or being
a sexist or some over the top form of sleazy attack. So often, I see folks like myself having to introduce our
negative points about her with "after years of defending the Clintons" or "I supported her campaign until...".

It's become reflexive to be defensive around here if you have any problems with her or her campaign because
a lot of the Hillary supporters just like to swoop in and discount you with some label like sexist or hater.

I thought the whole "get out of the kitchen" thing was supposed to be about being able to take the heat - not
act like a spoiled child and whine or refuse to address REAL issues.

[southern_belle]

108. K & R

[Naythan]

110. Thank you...

for a great post.

[lilyannerose]

113. What Really Chaps My Behind

First, is that many of those Hillbots bashed the current Admin for the lies and manipulations, but when Hill does it -- it's a whole new turn of the old proverbial worm. Unacceptable behavior, from elected or wannabe elected officials, is just that unacceptable.

The second fact, which adds the burn to the chap, is that I've been on record on several boards over several years defending Hill and I am now on those same boards with the same folks, I bashed in the years past, bashing former allies. This is a bit of the good for the soul humiliation I really, and I do mean REALLY, could have lived without.

[WillyT]

114. K & R !!!

:kick:

[natrat]

117. i don't understand her popularity, it's not like it's based on charisma

[smiley_glad_hands]

118. I don't hate her, but I don't trust her. I'd still vote for her, drugged of course. eom

[unblock]

119. hillary entered dante's hell?

:shrug:

[nevergiveup]

123. I am not sure if this is possible

but I feel sorry for her and I also despise her. I think I need a drink.

[NanceGreggs]

125. I'll join you ...

I also feel sorry for her, at the same I despise what she has said and done over the course of this campaign season.

I used to admire Hillary greatly, and I was (admittedly) a Bill Clinton Adorer. What I have seen and heard from the two of them over the past few months has been a heartbreak.

I won't pretend to know the pain Hillary has gone through, knowing that her life-long dream will not come to fruition. But there comes a time when one has to put the good of the country, and their fellow citizens, before the realization of personal ambition.

I keep wishing I could turn back time, to a place where Hillary could have graciously stepped aside and gone on to make her mark in other, more productive ways.

As much as I have wanted her out of this race since it became impossible for her to win it, I honestly wish it had all ended differently - for her sake, as well as ours. I take no joy in her self-inflicted demise.

[Honeycombe8]

124. Excellente. nt

[liberaldem4ever]

127. Great post NanceGreggs

Thanks for your wisdom. I love reading your posts. :hi:

[Baby Snooks]

128. I don't hate her but...

I don't hate her but I do hate what she has come to represent and unfortunately it goes beyond just political maneuvering but rather merely has been the unmasking of the real person. Who simply has no place in public office. And probably never did.

[HughMoran]

129. There was a time when I defended Hillary from "unfair" criticism.

Yes, a lot of that criticism was over the top here, but now she's earned the right to be ripped a new one.

Defend no more, I will.

[jumptheshadow]

130. Well, let me step up

The Hillary hating is self-indulgence.

For anybody with an ounce of moral or ethical fiber this is a time for serious discussion about issues, and ultimately, for reaching out to our natural allies instead of surrendering to the emotional weakness of anger, name-calling and arrogance. So much injustice has been done in the name of our country in recent years that all that is decent and good demands that we stop the hating crap and start the healing. Imagine being a shattered Iraqi, a despairing parent who has been sent on endless tours of duty for a war he or she knows is bogus, or anybody who has lost their life savings to the thriving corporate crooks. The hatred that is spewed, the words that are parsed, the sheer pretentiousness of much of the "discourse" that has taken place in Democratic circles lately must seem criminally ludicrous to them.

Get a grip, everybody. We have work to do.

[OwnedByFerrets]

131. Thank you Nance, for ALL you do and say....nt

[DCofVA]

138. Excellent post Nance, it is exactly how I feel too

I haven’t grown to hate Hillary, but I often feel resentful. It would have been wonderful to have a woman President. Why oh why did she have to start acting like a Republican?!

[Balderdash]

145. I used to come here

and look for Nance Gregg blog entries but I can barely come here at all to Obama Central. Open any thread on almost any page at all and read the contrast. Nance you gave a nice long list of the things that Hillary has done that you find offensive and not a peep of the things that Obama has done that are the same. He's made plenty of gaffes himself but his are excused and she is pilloried. I'm going independent and I'm doing so because of my fellow Democrats. I thought 8 years of Bush was bad but my party doesn't care about my vote or my opinion, that hurts.