Another disillusioned gay voter...

[drmom]

I’m done being excited. As long as the Johns didn’t say anything about gay rights, I thought they were just trying to fly under the radar and leave these issues about individual rights out of the campaign. That fine with me, I don’t need to be pandered to. I gave them my money, I supported them.

Now that they have both spoke out specifically against gay marriage, I just don’t care anymore. Yeah, if I make it to the polls in November I’ll probably vote for them, but it won’t be a priority. They certainly are not getting any more of my money.

Yes * is evil, but if the majority of the American public can’t see that, then maybe they deserve to slowly loose their rights. Maybe they need four more years of a near-dictatorship to open their eyes. It’s all about the Darwinian theory of “survival of the fittest”. If we, as a society can’t see through blatant evil, then we loose. Hopefully after the upcoming civil war, those who survive will come out realizing that in order to live and function together, we have to respect each other.

We have to realize that every society has people who need more care than others. There will always be the very old, the very young, the sick, the disabled that need the help of the society. If we look the other way, then society fails.

We have to realize that diversity within people is a good thing. Who wants to live in a society of clones? We need people who are interested in doing the work of all the various parts of a good society. We don’t just need managers, but those who are willing to be managed. If we only concentrate on allowing the success of one segment of the population, then society fails.

We have to realize that speaking out against any group of people only creates an atmosphere where name calling, and establishing a societal hierarchy becomes the status quo. Haven’t we learned yet that putting down another group does not make your group better? Starting a childish game of name-calling is another way to ensure that society fails.

Whoever wins in November, I’m afraid we are headed down the same path.

[Bluebear]

1. Keep your eye on the prize.

I'll take civil unions over concentration camps any day.

[Padraig18]

2. So will I.

I wish my fellow GLBT progressives would quit whining.

[drmom]

11. I'm not whining...

...I'm giving up.

[freetobegay]

12. By giving up, means letting them win

I would thought better of that from a fellow member.

[Padraig18]

19. Giving up is equally useless, if not counter-productive.

:wtf:

[freetobegay]

3. I don't know why such the outcry now?

There positions have not changed since the beginning. I will still support them in anyway I can, after the election then I will be forceful on their views on this subject.

[Snoggera]

4. Well, it's too bad that this causes you to be disinterested

in the future path of the country. To wish four more years of * is like inviting Satan to have lunch with you, and you turn out to BE the lunch.

"maybe they deserve to slowly loose their rights"

It won't be just "they" that lose the rest of their rights. It will be all of us.

I hope you reconsider. Nothing could be further from the truth than to state that this country will be headed down the same path with Kerry at the helm. He himself has said on his campaign stops that this is the most important election of our lifetimes, and I agree. Now is not the time to become despondent or complacent.

[patdem]

5. bush* is not the same path as Kerry...you are LIIIIIAAAAARRRRR

as Franken would say.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Remember that SLOW AND STEADY wins the race.

If we get civil unions and it has NO impact on heterosexual marriage, then eventually no one will care anymore and the right wing talking points will be useless on the issue.

Kerry voted AGAINST DOMA, but you know damn well what will happen if Bush is allowed to pack the courts with right wing nutcases.

Let's not push so hard we end up hurting ourselves.

Remember that women had to fight for almost a hundred years for the right to vote.

[David Dunham]

7. Kerry supports ensuring gay equality on all except marriage.

[drmom]

9. Do you have any links to support this statement?

nm

[papau]

10. Check Johnkerry.com for civil union statement

:-)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. I have no problems with gay marriage

or marriage between people of different races or different religions. At one time, the latter two types of marriage were considered offensive and even illegal (mixed race marriages were outlawed in VA even into the twentieth century). I remember seeing magazine articles from the 60s expressing shock about mixed race couples, and recall family members talking in hushed tones when one of my cousins married outside her religion.

I know it is hard to wait, but have patience. Just like mixed race and different religion couples, gays and lesbians have to educate the people. When I was a kid, homosexuals were considered to be mentally ill, and most gays were far in the closet. Many people thought that all gays were child molestors or people out to rape adults. In the last few decades, the truth about homosexuality has gradually come out. But there are still many who believe the old lies. The key now, for all progressives, is to explain the facts about homosexuality-that it is natural, that gays aren't any more likely to be sexual preditors than straights. Once fear is overcome, full civil rights, including the right to marriage, will come.

[Fleshdancer]

13. Hang in there. It will get better

When it comes to Civil Rights, it's the ongoing fight today that will help the generation of tomorrow. It's not fair, but all struggles for equality have always occurred in steps. African-Americans had to constantly fight for every new right as well as women.

It wasn't too long ago that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder and the idea of gay people living together and raising children was unheard of. Soon we'll pass Civil Unions which will lead the way to full fledge marriage in probably less than a decade. Then adoptions won't be as difficult and soon enough you and I will have to tell horrible stories to the next generation about how people actually thought homosexuality was wrong. I don't know about you, but I plan on fighting hard so my grandchildren can laugh at that idea.

It's a looong hard fight. But you're not alone. Even if it seems like we will never progress to the next step, just remember that there are many people fighting with you and for you. Don't give up on us.

[RodneyCK2]

16. Exactly... I am a big equality rights fighter and ...

I never thought we would be as far along as we are today. It takes small steps and a LOT of fighting.

I still support John/John because at least they are listening. It would be suicide for Kerry at this point (since the Repugs stirred up the issue) to fully support gay marriage. It is a shame, I agree, but at least we will not have any more rights eroded away under Kerry.

[Fleshdancer]

20. yes, another 4 years of Bush will be a huge set back for civil rights

I think it will get worse for minorities (especially Arab Americans), women, and especially homosexuals since their fight is the youngest.

Unfortunately the fight for equality is just as much about keeping the rights you've already fought for...not just acquiring new ones. Very exhausting at times, but neccessary. I just wish more women were aware of how close we are to losing our reproductive rights. It's scary. *sigh* but I guess that's a topic for a different thread. :(

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

14. Im pretty cynical and ironic about politics and politicians....

...so I'm not too disillusioned about Kerry stiffing the queers. You could have seen that one coming for a mile.

[dogman]

15. I understand how you feel

but I feel this country needs people who care to fight for change. Unfortunately we can only fight one battle at a time. We have to get B$$$co out of power before we can reform our own Party. A lot of us have had our issues ignored and I understand you cannot actively support a betrayal, but your vote is important and doesn't really cost that much. I am unhappy with the stance on the war but I know it will only get worse with B$$$ in office. This is part of the GOP strategy to divide this country, don't let them succeed.

[lunarboy13]

17. Not the same path at all...

If Bush is elected again, the supreme court will tip more to the right (Stevens is 84 and the most liberal on the bench -- he won't last another 4 years). In the last five years most critical decisions have been 5-4 votes. With another conservative supreme court justice on the bench, gay rights will go right back into the dark ages as far as the law is concerned. Once Bush has a supreme court tipped to the right, you won't even be able to live with someone of the same sex, let alone have a civil union. Kerry, on the other hand, while against gay marriage, is for civil unions. Civil unions are a first step. We are living in a generation of change. As difficult as this may be to understand, I think the next generation -- the children playing on the playgrounds, kicking soccar balls on saturday mornings and playing tee-ball in the afternoon -- are the ones who will enjoy most of the freedoms for which we are laying the groundwork today. If we take one step backward, which is what a Bush re-election will do, then not only will our current freedoms be cut, but also the developing freedoms for generations to come. Electing John Kerry is a significant step forward.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

23. Thats a good post..you get it..the generational implications..

...how signifigant this legal/courts issue is.

[tedoll78]

18. Try thinking about it strategically:

We can likely both agree that it's unlikely that a form of the marriage amendment will pass. We can also both take the smart bet that gay rights activists will repeatedly challenge the state DOMA amendments that are passing left and right, and that one of these challenges will eventually get to the United States Supreme Court. This is where a John Kerry victory comes in.

Whomever wins this election gets to name Supreme Court justices. As the court stands now, Kerry could likely end-up naming two justices to the court. O'Connor (constant rumors), Rehnquist (served since 1973), Stevens (86 years old), Ginsburg (health concerns) - maybe more will retire? I'd bet my left nut that John Kerry's picks to the USSC would find anti-marriage equality laws unconstitutional.

And let's be realistic about this for a moment. John Kerry won't have a gay marriage bill arrive on his desk from Congress anytime soon, no matter which party has control. His role in this issue is to name judges and to set a friendlier overall tone to gay rights in this country.

Try to think about it logically.

[drmom]

25. It’s not even the issue of gay marriage...

...that I’m all that concerned with. It’s that fact that the statements were made with no qualifiers (such as, “I support all other gay rights, just not marriage.”) which essentially told me (and a whole group of gay friends I discussed this with at church this morning), that the GLBT vote is being taken for granted. Why don’t they just ignore the issue? Why not just say that they don’t think it is appropriate to amend the constitution and leave it at that? Why don’t they say that these issues belong in the judicial, not the executive or legislative branches of our government, therefore it’s not a relevant question? There are many ways to deal with this question which don’t involve blatantly telling a very loyal part of the dem base that they are not respected.

Yes, you are right that the Supreme Court is a big issue with this election. Even more of a reason for the candidates to try and offend as few of the voters as possible.

[Snoggera]

26. I wonder who decided to float this issue

this election year. Could it be someone with an interest in promoting a "wedge issue?" It seems to be working, even if only on a small scale.

We need to take all of a candidate's positions as an indicator of the direction they will lead this country, and I see Kerry as heading in the right direction.

Rome may not have been built in a day, but the Supreme Court could easily and quickly wipe out a century of hard won rights by the citizens in this country if * manages to steal the election again.

[drmom]

27. Yes, but Kerry/Edward chose to go for the bait...

...very bad move.

[progressivebydesign]

33. They had to... N/T

[progressivebydesign]

32. Of course.. I heard that recently from a political professor on NPR.

Gay Marriage was NEVER a real issue, except to those that wanted to honor their bond with a partner.. The GOP pushed this issue because they needed something to motivate the uber right Christians to the polls. Partial birth abortions was the big thing last time, this time it's Gay Marriage. They are not only trying to put a wedge between Deomcratic voters, but they are trying to rally their most intolerant people.. and make the idiots feel as though they are singlehandedly SAVING the marriage in America.

I only wish people realized they're being played, on both sides.

[cap]

28. republican code words: "taken for granted"...

Bush said the same thing about black vote being taken for granted...

i think that they want to splinter us...

4 more years of bush and they wont punish gay bashing (and i mean physical bashing)

[tblue37]

29. Like Republicans,

we have to allow our candidates to court the center and the swing vote. That sometimes means saying what they have to say. The reason Republicans beat us so often is that their base permits them to "do" politics instead of insisting on the appearance of purity.

Not voting is eqivalent to voting for Bush. This race has to be won by a large margin to counterbalance the inevitable voter fraud that the Republicans have planned.

I hope you realize that letting Bush name not only SC justices but a whole slew of federal judges will massively set back rights for minorities, women, and GLBTs.

[sandnsea]

40. I smell disruption

"It's not even the issue of gay marriage that I’m all that concerned with. It’s that fact that the statements were made with no qualifiers"

If you aren't concerned about gay marriage specifically then you've got no beef with Kerry/Edwards. And if you don't know by now where they both stand on gay rights, especially Kerry, then I just don't believe you were ever a Kerry supporter to start with. I can't imagine how a gay person in this country can not know what he's done for gay rights in his career.

Sorry, I'm not buying your line.

[depakid]

21. Benign neglect vs. active persecution

that's really the choice here.

Since most of the battles are being fought on the state level, just having the federal government stay out of fray would be a big improvement over having Ashcroft style fanatics and far right judges interjecting their bigotry into the decisions.

[Snoggera]

22. No, it isn't

Take a look at their positions. There is no benign neglect to be found. I particularly like their idea to pay the 4 years college tuition for anyone that performs two years of accredited community service work. I think, in this time of college unaffordability for many, that this is a GREAT idea.

[JohnKleeb]

24. is that so?

And College is very hard to afford, I know that personally somewhat, now I concede my grades and medicore GPA are my own fault but even if I could get in to a good college, my family would have a hard time sending me to a really good school, the tuition rate raises, issues like equality are important but issues like the tutition rate affect me personally, I know college educations are taken for granted by the wealthy who think its just part of their regular education but I need to go to college to better myself, btw thanks snog I didnt know that and I like that plan, if I were a few years younger and not a rising senior, I wuold really consider doing it if they got it passed because one of my dreams is to go to college.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

30. You have 3 choices:

Be complacent and don't vote. You already know where that got America in the year 2000.

Vote Bush: 4 more years of war mongering, abuse of government powers, bad economy, self-destructive healthcare and no chance in hell for any type of gay-unions whatsoever.

Vote Kerry: 4 years of improving America and getting it back the way it used to be, the way it is supposed to be. Freedom will prevail and you might have a chance at gay unions.

You can't believe it is best to pick #1 or #2. You're smarter than that.

[cynatnite]

36. It Will Happen

Even as much as I despise Bush and his cronies, I still remain optimistic when it comes to the future of this country.

I honestly believe gay marriage will happen. I think rights for the homosexual community is the next civil rights movement and I also believe the change is coming. I don't believe there's any way to stop it.

All I can say is that there are a lot of people who are more for equal rights for all than for those who seek to deny them to a segment of the population.

While it may not happen today, tomorrow or possibly years from now, I do believe it will happen.

I also believe that Kerry/Edwards knows how much is at stake in this election. I believe that as well. This isn't just about who is running this country for the next four years. To me this is about the future of the country for the long term.

I think it will send a message to who really controls this country.
Bush is under the impression that he and his cronies are by their secrecy, stomping on civil rights, the big corporations which stuff their pockets, by instilling fear and also by using their theology to manipulate the general population.

I think this election is unique because it cannot be predicted with the use of polls. Every time I read or hear a poll and they say 'likely voters', I just have to laugh.

My thoughts tell me this election will pull out the most unlikeliest of voters. Given how the most apolitical has taken a step forward, Bruce Springsteen comes to mind, to make a stand.

While I do remain hopeful that Kerry will win, I can't even begin to predict at how this election will turn out. I just think we will all be surprised at the results.

Just keep hanging in there and don't give up. The hope is still there.

Cyn:)

[Neecy]

31. yeah, it's tough...

I worked like hell for Clinton in '92, gave every spare dime I had to his campaign, and what did I get in return? DOMA. The biggest slap in the face yet from a Democratic administration, pandering to the 'middle'.

So I know where you're coming from, but I've put aside the issue to focus not just on what's best for me as a gay American, but what's best for me as an American. There's no question there - I just don't believe our country will survive four more years of George Bush. That's why I'm again working for the Democratic ticket, giving money and time, and putting aside my own issues for now. (And yes, the Supreme Court DOES affect me, so that's an important reason to put the marriage issue aside for now. We can't afford another Scalia or Thomas - and that IS a gay issue, perhaps the biggest one).

[ronabop]

34. Why disillusioned?

This was *always* part of the John's platforms. Were you under the illusion that all democrats actually care about civil rights or equality under the law?

[DrFunkenstein]

37. Actually, Edwards Supported Adoption Rights For Gays

Which is perhaps even farther reaching in consequences than gay marriage.

[DrFunkenstein]

35. Then You Are A Gay Person Who Happens To Be A Dumbass

If Republicans could openly talk about half of the gay rights that Kerry has championed, we'd be screwed. Name me another President that would come even close to Kerry's record.

I won't even bother going further. I'll just quote "Vote With a Vengeance":

As part of Kerry's platform on gay rights, he supports civil unions for gay and lesbian couples, including inheritance rights, health benefits and insurance, family leave, bereavement leave, pension plans, hospital visitation, and survivor benefits from Social Security.

He has supported legislation attempting to give these rights to federal employees. Shortly after being elected to the U.S. Senate in 1985, Kerry joined in introducing an anti-discrimination bill.

He was also one of 14 senators in 1996 to speak out against and vote against the Defense of Marriage Act, authored by Representative Bob Barr (R-GA), which was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton and supported by Vice-President Gore; the passage of this discriminatory law allows states to withhold marital rights from new residents if those new residents relocate from a state where same-sex marriages are recognized.

He cosponsored and voted for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1996, which would have prohibited job discrimination based on sexual orientation by federal employers, and was narrowly defeated in the U.S. Senate.

Kerry also voted for Senator Barbara Boxer's unsuccessful 1993 amendment to modify President Clinton's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, which would have striked out language in Don't Ask, Don't Tell that currently permits the dishonorable discharge of gay and lesbian soldiers due solely to sexual orientation.

The Boxer Amendment would have stipulated for the president, as Commander-in-Chief, to be given ultimate decision-making authority when individual cases of misconduct occurred, so that soldiers are judged on behavior and performance, rather than on sexual orientation per se.

The amendment also would have ended "witch hunt" military investigations based on unconfirmed rumors (of homosexuality), investigations which Don't Ask, Don't Tell, despite its title, still allows for.

http://www.votewithavengeance.com/kerry.html

[JohnKleeb]

39. Wow Doc thanks

I didnt know a lot of this. Ive also read some of blm's research that shows that Kerry was one of the first politicans to introduce pro gay rights legislation. BTW I had never heard of the Boxer Amendment, courage to John for voting for it. Good for Kerry for sponsoring things like ENDA etc. I really think knowing what I know now, Kerry has possibly the best gay rights record of a candiate in history, better than Clinton and Gore I think honestly. Dont know what Dukakis, Mondale, and candiates of past thought but this guy has a good record I think.

[Kanary]

38. I'm with you on caring for those who need more care.

It's no longer a concern of the party, and there are MANY who have dropped out because of that.

I'm also with you on your last sentence.

:cry:

Kanary

[oasis]

41. Kerry needs solid support now. What can you do to help his campaign?