Many caucus states require paid time off for voting

[democrattotheend]

A lot of people have criticized the caucus system, and there are some legitimate criticisms. While caucuses are open to all registered Democratic voters (and independents in some cases), it does require a larger time commitment and makes it difficult for those who are bedridden or overseas or has rigid work hours to participate.

However, it should be pointed out that despite complaints by Clinton and her supporters that people were barred from participating because they had to work on the weekends or at night, it should be pointed out that several caucus states have laws requiring employers to give time off, usually paid, for workers to vote if voting is not available outside of work hours. I would assume this also applies to participation in a caucus, since that is a form of voting.

For example, in Washington State, where Clinton complained about the three nurses who wanted to caucus for her but had to work, the law states that "Employers are required to arrange employee work time on the day of an election so that each employee has a reasonable amount of time available for voting if the employee would not otherwise have two hours free (not including meal or rest breaks) to vote while the polls are open."

Iowa, Alaska, Colorado, Nebraska, Hawaii, and Wyoming have similar laws. For a run-down of state-by-state laws, see http://www.nfib.com/object/IO_31227.html

Clinton's campaign could have done a better job of educating voters about their rights instead of simply complaining that caucuses were undemocratic.

I agree that there are issues with caucuses, though there are also advantages. I am sure there were some people on both sides who wanted to participate and were not able to, but a lot more people simply did not want to take the time. It requires a certain degree of interest in politics to be willing to spend the time caucusing, and I don't judge anyone who does not have that level of interest, but I don't think everyone who did not participate in a caucus was disenfranchised.

As Clinton herself said, Obama tended to attract more of the activist types, the people who were willing to sit through a caucus. And in the primaries, maybe those people should have a little bit more say, since many of them are the ones who spend time knocking on doors and making phone calls and stuffing envelopes for the party during election season.

[Zachstar]

1. Bingo!!

[SoCalDem]

2. People have FOUR YEARS to plan (& save for) that ONE day off..

Not EVERYONE where a person works will even be interested. I seriously cannot envision a boss saying "no" to a person who wants to caucus/vote .

people manage to re-arrange their work schedules all the time for :

rock concerts
family events
tickets to sporting events
"mental health days off" (cough, cough, I'm sick)
school events with kids
etc etc

If someone is truly involved in politics, and WANTS to caucus, there WILL be a way to do it.. If you saved $1 a week for 4 years, you would have $208..surely that would offset a day off without pay for MOST people :)

[democrattotheend]

4. There are probably some employers who are jerks

And would not allow time off if they did not have to, or some employees who are too intimidated to ask even if it's their legal right. But in the majority of cases, I think you are right.

[BalancedGoat]

15. That's not correct.

I agree with the point you're making but the dates aren't always known that far in advance. The party here in Iowa didn't finalize the date until the last week on October.

[SoCalDem]

17. the exact date..maybe, but the financial aspect still works

$1 a week for 4 years=$208:)


and October-March (whenever) still allows for some schedule re-arranging if you are REALLY interested :)

[BalancedGoat]

19. True.

As I said, I do agree with your point.

[RainDog]

3. slam dunk. thank you.

I am really, really sick of hearing about poor Hillary, who started out with every advantage, who has been denied the election by "the establishment." The entire argument is so ridiculous it boggles the mind.

[fight4my3sons]

5. my husband worked the morning shift and still had time to get

there by 2pm to caucus with me and our three young kids. Though as was pointed out in a previous thread he could have sent in an absentee ballot. It was our first time caucusing as we have previously participated in primaries in NY.

[democrattotheend]

6. Maine allows absentee caucusing, which is a good idea

Unfortunately many other caucus states don't.

[MadBadger]

7. I cannot really defend the Caucus system

No matter what excuses are offered. However, its Clinton's fault for not being prepared.

[democrattotheend]

10. I think it has pluses and minuses

It requires more of a commitment to participate, and some people may be genuinely unable to.

On the other hand, it's a great opportunity for party building, and I think there's something to be said for having to listen to arguments for each candidate before deciding. When I was in Philly on election day, I overheard someone saying she had decided on Clinton in the voting booth by process of doing "eenie meanie miny mo" between her and Obama. Caucusing requires people to genuinely think it through and listen to arguments from their neighbors before making a decision. Personally I would love to be able to participate in a caucus...it's a shame I don't live in a caucus state.

[MadBadger]

14. You are completely right about the latter. I would love to go to a caucus.

I just think the former makes them very unfair. Primaries just give everybody the best opportunity to participate.

[BalancedGoat]

8. Good to know.

I sympathize with those who legitimately could not make it out to caucus. Apathy and laziness, however, are no excuse in my opinion.

[democrattotheend]

9. Since you live in Iowa, what's your opinion on this?

Do you know a lot of people who were genuinely unable to attend the caucus, or did most of the people you know who did not attend just not care enough?

[BalancedGoat]

12. Not one.

I have yet to speak to a single person who wanted to caucus but couldn't. Most people didn't care enough to go. I think some may have been intimidated because they didn't really know what goes on at a caucus.

[democrattotheend]

13. Interesting. You should write about your caucus experience

And make that point. Maybe you already have. But I think we should try to collect some diaries about caucus experiences to refute Clinton's "caucuses are undemocratic" spin.

[CoffeeCat]

24. In the Iowa caucuses this year...

participation doubled from 04--and 04 garnered record turnout.

If you listen to Hillary, she'd have you believe that attending a caucus is like scaling Everest--so many
just can't do it because it's nearly impossible.

I'd like to point out to people that never, ever in the 100-year history of Iowa's caucuses, has a politician
leveled such attacks on the system. Caucuses were celebrated and waged without these ridiculous, baseless
accusations for decade after decade.

I'd like to point out that many politicians have won the Iowa caucuses, but many more have not prevailed.
Yet, no complaints about how "unfair" or "disenfranchising" this process is. Not until Hillary
Clinton came along...and lost. She decided to tear down the process, instead of accepting her defeat.

I'd also like to point out what Hillary Clinton said about the caucus process before she lost. Let's
take a gander at her own Web pages and examine her own words: ""I want to thank all of my supporters and
everyone I have met in Iowa over the past 11 months. I am in awe of your commitment to the WONDERFUL TRADITION
OF THE CAUCUSES. Now they are here, and I hope that on January 3, you will stand up and be counted for me."


http://www.hillaryclinton.com/hq/iowa/caucus/

She's bamboozling many of you into parroting her lies, when they have no basis in fact.

I was a precinct captain in the largest precinct in the Des Moines area. Despite record turnout, the
process took less than an hour. Most caucuses are completed in 30-40 minutes, with many lasting 20
minutes.

Despite the laughable suggestion that people in nursing homes, senior citizens and those with disabilities
can't participate--I'd like to remind you that Hillary's own site emphasizes that you can sit the entire
caucus. You don't need to stand. You just sit there, and be counted. You don't even have to say anything.

The Democratic party--and the other candidates (yes, including Hillary) offered childcare services, rides to
the caucuses and special assistance for people who needed help getting to the caucus sites. Most of the caucus
sites are in schools, churches and community centers. These sites are handicap accessible and often a 5-10 minute
drive from the caucus-goers home.

If someone is too infirm to make it to the caucus, then they will most likely be unable to drive to their
polling place.

Also, Hillary has suggested that shift workers just can't attend. This is also a lie. Iowans, and caucus-goers
in other state, know the date of the caucus months in advance. They can plan ahead and take off one hour.
Furthermore, our state allows people to take time off from work and caucus with pay. That's the law.
Anyone who wants to participate, can--and their employer is required to pay them for the hour or so that they
are away from their jobs.

Caucuses are fair. They are fun. They incite conversation and a deep discussion of the issues. Neighbors stand
with neighbors and we pledge support for our candidate. People are respectful and dignified. I have spoken
with many precinct captains and volunteers in our state--and there was not one incident of someone bullying,
being unfair or talking over someone--as Hillary suggested.

Caucuses are simple. You arrive. You stand with your candidate group. You are counted. Then "realignment"
takes place--candidates who don't have enough supporters are deemed "inviable" and those supporters are free
to join other groups. Then a final count is taken.

It's not evil. It's not confusing. It doesn't require a PhD in political science to do.

Caucuses are wonderful. We need to respect states' rights in this situation. Each state should be allowed to
decide if they want a caucus a primary or a combination system.

Please do not allow Hillary Clinton's sour grapes persuade you with disinformation. She is distorting and when
you repeat her talking points you are only spreading distortions from a candidate who wants to tear down the
process because she failed at it.

[stray cat]

11. I think legally your employer must give you two hours too vote if you need it.

[SoCalDem]

18. If you plan to-want to caucus, you just ASK for that day off

Elections are not spur of the moment, and most job schedules are not either..

If I worked, and wanted to caucus, I would make SURE I told my boss I NEEDED that day off, and would make sure I had it "covered".. If I waited until the week-of, I would expect to receive some "static"..

Planning is part of every adult life, and not limited to things other than voting:)

[indimuse]

16. It SCREWS the will of the people. BY DESIGN.

PD's know...Obama won by 13,000 votes and gained 13 PD'S.
PD's know...Hillary won by 200,000 votes and gained ony 10(ten) PD's!


Translation... anyone using argument, the pledged delegate count as clear representation of the "will of the people" is simply full of shit. It does not. It SCREWS the will of the people. BY DESIGN.YOU KNOW this!

[RainDog]

20. if Clinton had won the caucuses would you care about this?

if Clinton had won on Super Tuesday, and therefore NONE of the states after that would have had a say in the nomination... would you care about this?

obviously no.

[MonkeyFunk]

42. Who cares who won?

Do the numbers posted bother you? Do you think that's democratic?

[democrattotheend]

21. Fewer people chose to participate in caucuses

The electoral college works the same way. It's based on population, not turnout. Minnesota always has higher voter turnout than most other states but they don't get extra EV's for it.

Delegates are apportioned based on the number of people who have the option to participate, not the number of people who choose to take the time.

[indimuse]

27. Option huh???

my mother and aunts, sister, and father had NO option! COULDN'T IS MORE LIKE IT! Between 2 very bad off diabetic with bad feet and kidney problems, NO WAY the could participate! Sis and Dad COULD NOT get off work to CAUCUS! To cast a simple CLOSED Primary vote YES! be honest already!

[BalancedGoat]

22. It's meant to be a representative sample.

We allocate seats in the house based on population, not by voter turnout.

[indimuse]

29. just HOW INFLATED is Obama's strength going into the GE,

by using the Caucus system do you suppose...The #'s must be WAY OFF! LOL!

[anigbrowl]

25. So why haven't people clamored to overthrow caususes?

Folks in Iowa and many other states seem pretty happy with their system. This dog of yours won't hunt.

[rainbow4321]

32. Same reason HRC didn't clamor to change them after Bill won them in TX

All comes down to her LOSING the caucus vote.

[GoesTo11]

28. sore loser.

[skipos]

34. What do you think about the fact that Hillary loved caucuses

"I want to thank all of my supporters and everyone I have met in Iowa over the past 11 months. I am in awe of your commitment to the WONDERFUL TRADITION OF THE CAUCUSES. Now they are here, and I hope that on January 3, you will stand up and be counted for me."

Why do you think she changed her mind on this? WHile you are at it, why did she chance her mind on MI and FL?

"I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything." - Hillary Clinton, before the MI primary

"I have consistently said that the votes cast in Florida and Michigan in January should be counted. " - Hillary Clinton, after the MI primary

[AirmensMom]

37. Did you think so

BEFORE you knew the results? I'm just wondering, because I've been a member of DU for a while now and never read one complaint about caucuses before. But since Hillary didn't do well in them, they're all of a sudden unfair. Why weren't they unfair before?

[dansolo]

23. Hillary has no problems with superdelegates deciding the nomination

But she complains about caucuses being undemocratic???? Does anyone else see the absurdity in this position?

[AirmensMom]

38. I've been asking myself that question.

Similarly, why does she care about MI and FL if she's counting on SDs to overthrow the results of all the other primaries/caucuses that didn't go in her favor? Or why does she insist that "every vote count" when she was so sure it would be over in February? :shrug:

[Lucky 13]

26. You don't change the rules 1/2 way through.

Maybe there needs to be some election changes, but not this year. Barack Obama and his highly organized campaign spent their resources according to the rules of each state and the DNC. That means they allocated significant amounts of their resources to caucusing... and for good reason.

The other thing is, isn't this a states' rights issue? Each individual STATE determines how it will do things: primaries, caucuses, prima-caucuses, etc. Are people suggesting the DNC come in and tell Iowa it can't do caucuses anymore? That won't go over well.

[democrattotheend]

41. Is your signature graphic a bumper sticker?

Do you have it on CafePress or something? If not, you should. It's cool.

[crispini]

30. Texas too! Not paid time off, I believe, but you are supposed to be allowed

to leave work.

[rainbow4321]

31. Clinton picked the wrong profession to use as "proof"

"For example, in Washington State, where Clinton complained about the three nurses who wanted to caucus for her but had to work,"


She's damn lucky that I wasn't in the audience cuz as a nurse myself I would have been drilling her for details. But you know how HRC is with pesky little details. It would have been that person A told person B who told HRC the story and, well, she took them at their word.

What shift did they work? If they do 3 twelve hour shifts, they get 4 days off..did they request for one of those days off to be the caucus day? Even if they do 5 eight hour shifts per week, that still leaves two days off..did they ask their unit manager prior to the schedule coming out to be scheduled off that day? Was there no co-worker who they could have asked to switch with them?
Were they not aware for several months what day the caucus was held? When you are a nurse working on a unit, the sooner you put in a request for a day off, the more likely you are to get it off. How far ahead did they put in that request?

I resent HRC using my profession for one of her "poor me" sob stories.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Writer]

35. Do people know this?

And if so, why is participation so low for caucuses as compared to primaries?

[democrattotheend]

40. I don't know if the campaigns did much to educate people about it

Or maybe Obama's campaign did a better job of educating people about it, since more people came out to caucus for him.

I am not 100% sure the laws apply to caucuses, but I don't see why they wouldn't.

I would be interested to hear how many stories there were of people who wanted to caucus and were told by their employers that they couldn't. I am sure it happened but probably not in as high numbers as some would suggest.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Still A Really Weak Argument For Caucuses. They Suck, Period. They Don't Represent The Will Of The

people, period. They should be done away with by next cycle, period.

They're tragically flawed in design and concept and they should have no place in our system. Though obviously too late this time around, we all should care about the integrity of process enough to try and start a movement to get rid of these ridiculous things.

[democrattotheend]

39. I agree that there are some valid arguments for reevaluating caucuses for next time

But they have been around forever and Hillary knew that was how it worked and it bothers me that she is now using the arguments against caucuses to try to delegitimize Obama.

[msallied]

43. The fact is, there are pluses and minuses for BOTH systems.

And someone will always find a reason to tear them both down. I can say that by merely walking into a poll, I don't feel like my voice is really being heard. I don't feel like I don't have any other way to participate in getting referendums for state laws heard. I could say that the primary voting system prevents me from getting a sense of community with my fellow Democrats, that they make me feel "out of touch" with the system and therefore less enthusiastic about participating. I could say that I distrust electronic voting machines and enjoy the more tangible experience of caucusing. I can say that caucusing helps me to get a better sense of how delegates are allocated and that it is more rewarding.

I could also say that the caucus makes me feel sometimes like I'm being peer-pressured away from my original choice and that I don't always have time to sit and listen to sixty people explain their reasons for supporting or not supporting a candidate.

But what I can say about BOTH systems is this: they don't work unless someone gives enough of a damn to participate. And with either system there is only one winner.