Swiftboat Ads Are Successful

[kerrykat2004]

Some people on here are trying to deny reality by calling us "alarmists. Fine. The rest of us are working to counter what have been, thus far, very successful attacks against John Kerry.

The Swift Boat Veterans' book "Unfit For Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry" has already reached #1 on the Amazon.com bestseller list - in pre-orders alone." Millions and millions of people will be reading this book and seeing the television ads. If even 1% of them vote against Kerry because of them, it could swing them election in several key states. Figure 5,000,000 will see an ad or read the book x .01 = 50,000 votes. Gore lost Florida by only 500 votes in 2000.

Negative advertising works. That is a fact. It sticks in peoples' minds. And for those of who who say swing voters are turned off by this type of advertising, you're wrong. Swing voters value personal characteristics such as honestly, leadership and strength. They tend to vote less on the issues and more on the candidate. If they see ads from (presumptive) Vietnam comrades denouncing Kerry as a liar, a coward and a lunatic -- it will cast doubt in their minds as to Kerry's personal qualities.

So the Kerry campaign has to strike back and strike back hard. If Bush wants to play dirty, Kerry needs to roll up his sleeves as well. Press releases to the AP and CNN won't do the trick. Kerry needs to come out publicly, with his band of brothers at his side, and denounce the ads. It is a case of discrediting your opponent. This situation will only get worse when the book is released on the 15th of August.

[stopbush]

1. Do you think Kerry should fight fire with fire by releasing ads

stating as *fact* that bush went AWOL? I'm asking, seriously.

[WiseMen]

12. I think not. He should focus on this message. But the DNC and Others

need to take the opportunity to counter-attack with
extreme predudice and persistence, to take the fight into
the RNC convention the way the Repubs to tried to go after
Kerry with every opportunity during our Convention.

The republican fighters were disciplined and relentless.
They pushed there message against John Kerry whether the topic
was Dean, Obama or Teresa.

[The Hair in my Nose]

19. I can't help but thinking...

.... that Dennis K would not have to work through all of this.

A clear anti war message would have been so much better than the queasiness in the pit of my stomach I've got now. AND we would not have to deal with Nader siphoning off key support.

[hippiegranny]

35. great post

so helpful.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. If Dennis K Was Our Nominee

we wouldn't have anything to worry about but closing the forty point gap with Bush...

[The Hair in my Nose]

49. GAP Schmap

Dukakis had a 19 point gap and was demolished. I'd like to see us run a campaign without pandering to the Bush-Lite center.

Dammit, let's be real!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Dennis K Would Have Been Creamed....

It would have made Nixon-McGovern look like a nailbiter....

[The Hair in my Nose]

54. Dennis K & Clarke

would do well especially if the Iraq fiasco blows a cork. We would have a choice and not an echo (spit!!!! quoted Goldwater == sorry)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Goldwater Is A Good Example Of What Happens To A Candidate Who Is A True

Believer...

[The Hair in my Nose]

57. Then its...

RINO and DINO and Nader, Oh MY

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. Don't Let The Perfect Be The Enemy Of The Good

NT

[The Hair in my Nose]

59. Bush Lite...

... is Good?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. No... Kerry Is Good....

-:)

[The Hair in my Nose]

64. Kerry is Good...

... then let Kerry be Kerry. I am sick of our party reacting to the term Liberal like it is a STD!

Must we be chameleons, like Swartzengropper, to get elected?

Can't we be natural, man?

[George_Bonanza]

62. Kucinich backs Kerry

If DK was the nominee instead of JK, then the Repugs would be working a whole other, equally damaging angle (although how harmful these malicious attacks are are yet to be proven). They'd be calling Kucinich the weed smoking 50 year old vegan hippie with the screaming speeches.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. In One Of The Debates Kucinich Said He Never Smoked Weed

And I believe him....


That cat dances to the beat of his own drummer....

[The Hair in my Nose]

65. That cat dances to the beat of his own drummer....

... as opposed to doing the "robot" to the opinion polls?

[NWHarkness]

2. Calm down

This crap is already backfiring on them.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. Kerry needs to roll up his sleeves and play hard, but not dirty

This Republican Administration has given him so much material to work with, the truth never needs to be stretched, just highlighted. Even pointing out what Bush's team did to McCain in 2000, including the details of that smear campaign, isn't dirty, it's all true. I say this only because some seem to be afraid that Kerry coming right back at Bush over things like this would tarnish his positive campaign, and I say, not if Kerry tells the undistorted truth.

[lancdem]

4. Kerry is fighting back

He's not Michael Dukakis.

[coloradodem2005]

7. What is he doing?

How is he fighting back now?

[lancdem]

10. He's called them garbage

and John McCain condemned them, putting the WH on the defensive.

[kerrykat2004]

14. How?

I have not seen Kerry fighting back at all. Save John McCain's lukewarm condemnation of the ad yesterday, there has been no coordinated effort to derail the ad.

My concerns are really more about the book than the ad. While the ad only airs in selected states, the book will be available to the entire nation. The fact that it is #1 on the bestseller list before even being released does not bode well for the Kerry camp.

And of course a bestselling book generally gets more attention than a TV ad.

Maybe the K-E camp already has a strategy in place to counter the ad/book. I don't know. But if they don't, it could spell trouble.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. Science has not yet shown us how to make someone invisible, but

you have shown us how to be transparent.

:hi:

[Tempest]

5. THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING

You are seriously overstating the issue.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that 85% of the book's sales are to those already committed to Bush and 10% are to those who are committed to Kerry and want to see what the fuss is about, and to debunk the charges. That leaves 5% who are just plain curious.

And you're dead wrong about swing voters and negative campaigns. There's too much research behind this, and it shows the exact opposite.

And swing voters put the economy far ahead of issues of honesty, leadership and strength. That's one of the results of the research.

BTW, Kerry and his supporters have come out against the ads. So have some Bush supporters, like McCain.

[kerrykat2004]

22. ..

I'd like to see your research on swing voters.

Most swing voters I know vote based on the candidate and his qualities, not on the issues. If they had solid views on the issues, they would, naturally, be Democrats or Republicans.

[Tempest]

27. Here's something to chew on

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/info/index.php?category_id=1321

[LittleApple81]

6. Best seller is not millions.... Very few get to one million. n/t

[mzmolly]

8. It can't be Kerry, it has to be an independent group.

I do think it can backfire on Bush though.

[WiseMen]

17. Agreed. All of us belonging to MoveOn or ACT should lobby them.

But, it may be best for the DNC get involved in a major way in
a counter offensive.

[AmerDem]

9. This is pure desperation on the repukes part!

All will be handled in a timely manner. Stop with all the Chicken Little garbage already!

BTW, who do you think would preorder a book like that? Yes there are alot of repukes in this country. I bet you 99.9% of those preorders are from his base. would you expect anything less?

Chill!!!

[s8hanse1]

11. Relax

Besides, .01% of 5,000,000 is only 500... .01% = .0001

[KharmaTrain]

13. These Are Pre-Sales...Not People Lining Up To Buy The Thing...

Let's see how this tracks on the NY Times list and see if it gets a little * after it...which means a lot of bulk orders were made.

I've got a bright shiny dime here that says there's several thousand copies ready to be shipped to RNC warehouses. Plus subscribe to Newsmax and get 20 free copies.

Cheers!

[tandot]

23. That was my thought. All of the wealthy Bush buddies and supporters

and the RNC will order in bulk to make it appear that people are really reading that piece of crap...

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0728a.html

12 Generals and Admirals Endorse John Kerry
Military Leaders to Speak and Take Part in Video Tribute in Boston Wednesday as Convention Focus Turns to Kerry-Edwards Plan to Make a Stronger, More Secure America

For Immediate Release

Boston, MA - In an unprecedented display of support from the military establishment, twelve retired generals and admirals endorsed John Kerry for president of the United States on Wednesday. These distinguished flag officers join the ranks of tens of thousands of veterans – including over 500 veteran delegates in Boston - who want a stronger, more secure America and their fellow veteran John Kerry to be the next Commander-in-Chief.

<snip>

John O'Neill and others are just pissed that Kerry had the guts to speak out against the Vietnam war. Their grudge goes back 30 years. All of this will come out. Just give the DNC some time to dig out some neat little facts about those idiots and the financial ties between them and the Bush campaign. I bet they are working over-time right now...

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/ThisWeek/Politics/thelist040425.html

Stewart: "Kerry's 33-year-old charges continue to raise the hackles of fellow veterans, like John O'Neill, who served in the same division as Kerry and told CNN's Wolf Blitzer he is still angry about his war crime accusations."
O'Neill on CNN's Wolf Blitzer Reports: "Because we were there, we know the truth — that this guy's unfit to be the commander-in-chief."
Stewart: "So Kerry's behavior in 1971 makes him unfit to be commander-in-chief. Hmmm. I wonder if Bush's behavior in 1971 would hold up to that kind of scrutiny."

[KharmaTrain]

29. O'Neill Is A Ghost Of Watergate Past...

He was found by Chuck Colson...of Nixon's dirty tricks fame...who groomed and coached this guy to specifically go after Kerry. There are Nixon tapes of Nixon and I think Colson & Halderman disussing both Kerry and using O'Neill to discredit him.

I'm surprised this side hasn't been exposed much yet. But then this story is just rolling down the tracks.

No doubt this is a vain attempt to derail Kerry's growing strength among the military and the "moderates" on issues of military and security. He's chomped boy bluder's positives in this area by 20 points in the past 3 months.

I just wonder if this is the best they've got or is there worse?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

38. Astro Turf... False reality papered over by a different perception

that's what it is.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

15. 0.01% of 5,000,000 is 500

500 dumbasses.

[hippiegranny]

16. the Kerry campaign

has to stay above the fray. It can defend itself against this kind of thing, but it cannot use it to go on the attack against the Bushler campaign in kind. Officially, the Bushler campaign did not run the ad.

I think Kerry and Edwards know how to defend themselves. They are not going to knee jerk react. If this remains an issue beyond the next few days, they will deal with it. Try not to panic.

[Career Prole]

18. Okay, now you're getting confusing.

You just said yesterday "I think it's time to say a big f*ck you to the "swing voters." If they're so stupid that they can't tell the huge differences between Bush and Kerry, then we don't want them in our camp anyway.
Instead, Kerry should work on strengthening his Democratic base, just as Howard Dean did during the primaries."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=595562

How did it go from "f*ck swing voters" to "we're doomed without the swing voters" in 24 hours?
The only thing that's happened in the meanwhile is the war has gone to shit and the market has decided to join it.
The book, the ad...pfffft! Soon forgotten.
Dim Son's miserable failures will linger on and on.

[kerrykat2004]

25. swing votes

The very reason I said to forget about swing voters was because of the ad. Listen, I know a lot of swing voters. I know how they tend to vote and why they do so. There are a plethora of reasons why most (I know) will opt for GWB over JFK. It's the "don't changes horses in the middle of the stream" idea.


It's easy for us, the staunch Democrats, to criticize GWB, and of course we have good reason to do so. Swing voters think differently. They want Kerry to "sell himself" to them. And that i becominf more and more difficult.

[Andromeda]

60. Buh, bye, disrupter.

.

[sangh0]

20. Another hit and run poster

#1 on Amazon don't mean nothing. On Amazon, no book gets lots of pre-orders so being #1 on that list is no big deal. Furthermore, I'd bet dollars to donuts that it's Freepers trying to get some media attention by pre-ordering.

Wake me up when it's #1 on the NY Times bestseller list. You know, like the books by Wilson, Moore, and other Democrats

[Beetwasher]

21. Oh Please, Give Me a Break!

Kerry needs to do no such thing. He should not even personally acknowledge the ads. He needs to stay above the fray, just like he's been doing.

The ads have been a complete flop, that's the fact. They are being denounced by everyone, even the WH. Only the most hard core lunatics are defending them.

It is in no way a "fact" that negative advertising works. It totally depends on the situation and your target audience.

Sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Have you seen the ad? It's cartoonishly over the top and vicious. It's almost a parody of an attack ad and will only be believed by braindead morons who are already voting for Bush and even many of them will see it for what it is.

[Sensitivity]

26. Where do you live? The SVet attack has been Rove's most sucessfull tactic

so far. It is all over the media. The White House is using it
to attack all left-leaning 527 by equating this slime to what our
groups do. So far it is a win win win. They condemn the Ad. They
condemn MoveOn and ACT. They benefit from the doubt cast over Kerry's
record every time the topic is discussed in the public media.

[sangh0]

30. I don't live on cable

and it's not "all over the media". Your perception has been warped by the propoganda.

CLue: Most people don't watch cable news.

[Sensitivity]

33. It is all over talk radio. Everyone in my office has heard that Kerry's

medals are being disputed. Again. Which world are you living in.

[sangh0]

34. Wow, how scary!!

I'm sure all the moderates and liberals are listening to Limbaugh and Savage.

:crazy:

Which world are you living in.

The real one, not the right-wing one you're listening to on talk radio.

[hippiegranny]

36. "talk radio"

ok, let's discuss talk radio. what talk radio world do you live in? i am listening to air america. i guess we're in different talk radio "worlds."

[City Lights]

42. Maybe you could ask them about Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star,

which according to Douglas Brinkley, he earned for bravery the same day as Kerry. He wasn't on the same boat with Kerry, but was involved in the same attack. If Kerry, according to thurlow, doesn't deserve his Bronze Star because they "did not come under enemy fire that day," does thurlow deserve his? Does thurlow still have his star, or did he refuse to accept what he claims would be an unearned medal?

http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html

<snip>

Kerry and the other wounded men received medical attention aboard a Coast Guard cutter, which was the closest ship capable of treating them. Along with a third Purple Heart for the injury to his right arm, Kerry was also awarded a Bronze Star for his bravery, as was Larry Thurlow.

<snip>

[JLuckey]

24. Can you say attention span!!!!

This will also pass. Bush is imploding!! Can't you see it. Kerry looking GREAT and Shrub is self-destructing. This is the gang that can't shoot straight.

[Tempest]

28. Swing voters leaning heavily towards Kerry

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/info/index.php?category_id=1321

[Tempest]

31. Now here's something timely: Kerry Narrows Security Issue Gap

AP Poll: Kerry Narrows Security Issue Gap

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=2&u=/ap/20040806/ap_on_el_pr/president_ap_poll

WASHINGTON - Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites), whose nominating convention highlighted his war service and focused on national security, has narrowed the gap on President Bush (news - web sites)'s strong suit of protecting the country, according to an Associated Press poll that shows the race remains tight.

In the AP survey conducted Tuesday through Thursday, 43 percent said Kerry would do a better job of protecting the country — a gain of 8 percentage points for the Democratic presidential nominee from a similar survey in March.

Kerry improved his standing on the issue with a demographic group that tends to lean Republican: men under age 45.

[sangh0]

37. AHA! Proof that the Swift Boat ads are working

:crazy:

[janx]

39. Successful?

I haven't seen anything, either from the media or anyone I know, who believe any of it, let alone call the effort successful. It's a pathetic disgrace.

Even Faux news doesn't want to push it.

[MUSTANG_2004]

40. Of course the ad is successful

I watched it and it hits pretty hard.

I won't play back-seat campaign strategist and suggest what means to use to counter it beyond saying that it seems like it's an ad that needs to be answered specifically (i.e. pointing out who funds it isn't enough, the content needs to be addressed).

[West Coast Democrat]

41. But the ads also have a negative impact on the Bush campaign

so whatever success the ads or the book have with hardcore Bush supporters will be overshadowed by how much this will turn off swing voters.

[WiseMen]

47. No evidence of this ever. Backlash only happens if Candidate is not

well known already, if the negative ad is view as false, and
if it can be tied directly to the Candidate.

[Sparkly]

48. I think the liars are preaching to their choir

but I'll agree there's no evidence of anything at this point.

Regnery is a notorious rightwing publishing entity who buys books in advance themselves to push them.

And I just heard one of the spurious smearvets -- they *still* do not understand what Kerry was saying in 1971 when he protested the war. He was protesting the WAR, protesting Nixon, protesting the administration's failure to admit the war was a failure -- he was NOT protesting the soldiers!! Why don't they get this?!

[Catt03]

43. Suggestion

The Kerry/Edwards campaign has sent out emails and letters about the issues of the 2004 election; health care, economy, jobs, security/9-11 Commission.

It appears that no one is paying attention or discussing them.

Of course not, all the energy and debate is going to the Swiftboat group, giving them the attention they seek and hijacking the national discussion on issues.

We're making these wannabees famous at out expense.

[LTR]

44. Buh-bye!

[Maddy McCall]

46. I THOUGHT so.

:-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I'm Curious.....

How do we know he's a disruptor and not misguided...

[JI7]

52. history of posts suggest disruptor

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. TY

I didn't see the others...


Who knows the net effect of this ad......


It probably won't amount to a hill of beans in the fullness of time.....


Those who want to believe the worst of Kerry will embrace it but their votes weren't there for the taking anyway....

[lunarboy13]

55. Bush Doesn't Want This Fight

If people want to come out of the woodwork with unsavory and evil motives (none of them are democrats and all opposed what Kerry said when he came back from the war) there's not much Kerry can do except to fight back. This fight also legitimizes Bush's own record once again and hopefully the mianstream media will pick back up on the AWOL story.

[Moderator]

66. I'm locking this thread

its a bit too flamey and the original poster has been banned for more than just this thread.