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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 05:45 PM
Original message
Counterpunch's article on Kerry's Vietnam service.
I am curious if anyone has replied to or debunked Counterpunch.org's article on John Kerry's Vietnam service:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

It seems rather cryptic about the sources for a lot of their assertions, specifically the events surrounding Kerry earning the Bronze Star. They basically say: This is what happened. Is it from Kerry's journals, eyewitness accounts, or RW talking points? Who knows?

Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if much of it were true....

What did others think about this article - and Counterpunch in general?
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've heard the bit about the purple hearts is true
and is commonplace for the swiftboat vets. Practically all of them have purple hearts, because it's a dangerous job.
Or at least so I heard...
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah like Cockburn names his sources..
just look at the flowery language...where are his sources to confirm that Kerry received a "scratch" This is the same lying leftist motherfucker that did the same fucking thing to Al Gore...he is a lying fucking leftist gasbag...he probably collects a paycheck from Rove for this dogshit...where are HIS sources?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Here here!
:toast:

The odd thing about it is that the left is buying this shit ALL OVER AGAIN!? WTF!
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jmknapp Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Paleo-Marxism
Cockburn came out in support of militias following the OKC bombing.

He's a bitter Marxist.
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I agree. The sourcing sucks.
Nevertheless, say the sources - if they exist - check out, and I'm willing to admit it could be true because I don't think the allegations are so ridiculous, it would be nice to have the other side of the story. Not just the DNC war-hero stuff, which is probably just as much bullshit, but some other eyewitnesses who aren't so damning.

NMSA, you said in another thread that you could debunk this article if need be. Where do your sources come from?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Portions of this article have been debunked in mainstream news stories
I will take the time later to point out that which is so scurrilously generalized and made up, it requires no source.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. You say "leftist" like it's supposed to be an insult.
Since it generally means "politically left-of-centre", I'd say it's a label that could fairly be applied to most here (just as "rightist", "right-wing", etc., may be applied to our Republican counterparts).

I don't have all that high an opinion of Mr Cockburn...he seems mainly to appeal to disaffected fringe elements of the extreme socialist/syndicalist anarchist/ideological zealot variety...but I see no reason for McCarthyite mudslinging, either.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I stand corrected..he's a disaffected fringe whatever
and cram the McCarthy shit..
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. You should choose your words more carefully.
Don't get rude and pissy with me because you used inept, ill-considered language and got called on it. And, as for "McCarthyite"...that's one of the first things to come to mind whenever I hear someone ranting about "leftists". Don't like it? Try not to sound like one, then.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. There's nothing McCarthyite about pointing out that some people
are so far into fanstasyland they oughtta walk around with balloons in their hands, secondly, the first thing that comes to mind when someone tosses some McCarthy bullshit at me when I am CLEARLY not is that they have a stick up their ass simply because I will go after the far left as vigorously as I will go after the far right when they make up shit about Kerry.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Indeed, Ma'am
Mr. Cockburn is a redolent turd, a wrecker of the first water, who plays to perfection the role of "useful idiot" in the calculations of the reactionary right. No thoroughgoing Leninist would have the least difficulty with denouncing him as an agent in fascist pay....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No but the faux leninists of DU seem to have difficulty recognizing it
:hi:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It Is A Hard Creed, Ma'am
Ill-suited for those who dream of peace, and eschew red meat....

"Revolution is not a tea party."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Far left, far right...
not much difference, when you get down to it. The political continuum is more of a circle than a straight line; go far enough in either direction and the two opposites meet, it seems.

Hard-core ideologues are responsible for most of the fuckery perpetrated over the course of the past century, and individuals such as Cockburn (or, to cite another example, the confusingly conflicted, sadly alcohol-addicted, self-described "socialist" Christopher Hitchens,) who make black-and-white ideology their only point of reference without regard for the variegated grey palette of the real world, are to be chuckled at and dismissed as the benighted fools they are. We are in essential agreement, I think...I just chose to quibble over your phrasing. Apologies for any ruffled feathers.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Fair enough and peace
and I CAN relate to the fact that using directionals to name these people is in error..I just get miffed that so many who are REPORTEDLY on "our side" fall for this shit and don't critically evaluate the generalizations void of facts and spread it.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Alas, critical thinking seems to be an area where many are lacking...
which seems to be a good thing for our opponents, since a cogent and sceptical populace would see through their charade instantly.

And, as an aside, I'm not too surprised to see Cockburn spreading this sort of tripe; given what I know of his political leanings he probably wants Bush re-elected, on the theory that things getting as bad as they possibly can will precipitate mass unrest and political revolution (he is, after all, something of a Trotskyite).
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. And that is EXACTLY the fantasyland thinking I deplore
Why the love affair with death destruction and mayhem? Granted one can read a history book and determine it turned out back then..of course back then, all resources and finances could not be controlled with the flick of a switch (i.e. people losing access to their money in Argentina two years ago since ATM's were turned off) I'll never understand that careless thinking. I say if they want mayhem, perhaps it should be hoist upon them first..much like those that want war should be the first to enlist.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. To someone of that mindset...
revolution is a good thing. Cast out the oppressors, let the streets run in their blood, establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, and march forward into the glorious Brave New World of the Socialist Worker's Paradise! And never mind that we have the lessons of the French and Bolshevik revolutions to show us how such things invariably end up (people being what they are), for this time it will be different.

It still amazes me that ostensibly intelligent people can be so blind, foolish and deluded.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. from the comfort of their homes and computers of course
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. The article lost all credibility here:
Yes, this is the same Kerry who today is calling for 40,000 more US troops to deployed to Iraq.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=29817&format=

WASHINGTON - Sen. John F. Kerry yesterday called for boosting the size of the U.S. military by 40,000 troops for the rest of the decade to ease the burden on the National Guard and Reserve, which have been heavily deployed to Iraq.


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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh what a sniveling lying coward Kerry must be...
Edited on Tue Aug-03-04 07:27 PM by A_Possum
A "minor" paragraph from this article, effectively downplayed in all the other bunk:

Kerry earned the bronze star by pulling another lieutenant out of the water after the latter's Swift boat had hit a mine. That same mine's detonation caused enough wake to throw Kerry against a bulkhead, bruising his arm. This was classed as a wound, which meant the third purple heart. Then, amid rifle fire, Kerry maneuvered his boat toward Lieutenant Rassman and hoisted him onto the deck.

I'm sure Kerry thought to himself, "boy howdy, this will look great on my resume in 30 years when I run for president!" and stopped his sun-tanning on the deck long enough to waltz out there under sniper fire to pull the guy out of the water.

James Rassman, the Green Beret he saved, says he knew he was dead, and was amazed that Kerry turned his boat around and got him.

Frankly, that incident alone, which is about as well-documented and witnessed as any incident in any normal person's life could be, would be enough to make Kerry a war hero.

He saved a guy's life.

Let's repeat that, to make sure we got it right.

He went out on deck, in the open, under heavy sniper fire, and saved a guy's life by pulling him out of the water.

Ask Rassman, the guy who thought he was a goner being shot at in the water, if he cares whether Kerry did it for his resume. The point is, Kerry did it.

Cockburn is a gasbag, and probably a jealous one at that. He can't seem to decide if Kerry is a monster who loved killing, or a wuss who never peeked over the rail and just "bruised himself" when the boat rocked.

His article reeks of a coward's spite for courage. Same as all the rest of the Republican veteran bile about this. What kind of soldiers turn on their own just to get a pansy like Bush elected? Give me Kerry at my back any day, thanks.


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There are many issues with this article.
Thanks for the link to the story on Mr. Rassman, I'll bookmark that sucka!
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The "bruise" is a good example of lack of sourcing.
Where did Cockburn get this information from???
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thin air...just like the Love Canal crap he ran with in 00
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. AWOL vs. Hero? You decide.
Lt. Kerry, though morally opposed to an unjust war, served honorably and at great risk to his life. After, he did his best to expose the injustices he saw to prevent them from happening again.
Sadly, the AWOL shrub has brought us into another unjust war. President Kerry can once again work within the system to right wrongs.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Snopes
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Thanks. That seems to contradict much of the rancid article posted
above. :hi:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. The truth about John Kerry and Vietnam
In an intense three months of combat following that Christmas Eve battle, Kerry often would go beyond his Navy orders and beach his boat, in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket launcher. Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed. Kerry would watch in despair as a crewmate killed a boy who may or may not have been an innocent civilian. He would angrily challenge a military policy that risked the death of noncombatants. And he would try to escape the fate of five of his closest friends, all killed in combat.

<snip>

In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr. ''We were fighting the (free fire) policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, (to) say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show.

But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat. Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml



The following excerpts are drawn from Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War.

<snip>

Then, Kerry wrote, he looked over at the young woman they had detained, "who was squatting in the rear of the PBR." She was defiant. She sat very calmly, watching the movements of the men who had just blown four of her countrymen to bits. She glared at me. I wondered about her boyfriend who was fighting us somewhere else. The PBR crew said that the men in the sampan got what they had coming to them but I felt a certain sense of guilt, shame, sorrow, remorse - something inexplicable about the way they were shot and about the predicament of the girl. I wanted to touch her and tell her that it was going to be all right but I didn't really know that it would be. Besides, she wouldn't have accepted my gesture with anything but scorn. I looked away and did nothing at all which was really all I could do. I hated all of us for the situation which stripped people of their self respect.

<snip>

"I know that most of my friends felt absolutely absurd going up a river holding a loaded weapon that was supposed to be used against someone who had never really done anything to you and on whose land you were now trespassing," Kerry wrote. "I had always felt that to kill, hate was necessary and I certainly didn't hate these people." In truth, he added, scanning the shore for suspicious movements to shoot at made him "feel like the biggest ass in the world." Kerry had explored similar feelings in a letter to his parents in December of 1968. Describing the sight of American soldiers and their Vietnamese girlfriends strolling down the streets of the U.S. rest-and-recreation-center city of Vung Tau one sunny afternoon, he reflected on the crucial difference between occupiers and liberators of war-torn places. "I asked myself what it would be like to be occupied by foreign troops�to have to bend to the desires of a people who could not be sensitive to the things that really counted in one's country," Kerry wrote in that letter. He had been considering Germany's occupation of France during World War II, he added, when "a thought came to me that I didn't like - I felt more like the German than the doughboy who came over to make the world safe for democracy and who rightfully had a star in his eye."

Less than three months later experience had brought him to another melancholy observation. He wrote in his war notes, It was when one of your men got hit or you got hit yourself that you felt most absurd�that was when everything had to have a meaning in order for it all to be worthwhile and inevitably Vietnam just didn't have any meaning. It didn't meet the test. When a good friend was hit and perhaps about to die, you'd ask if it was worth just his life alone - let alone all the others or your own.

"But the ease with which a man could be brought to kill another man, this always amazed me," he went on. Even more troubling to him was the imprimatur the U.S. military accorded this coldheartedness. To illustrate his point, he referred to the messages that would come in from the brass at Cam Ranh, praising the Swifts' gunners whenever they had killed a few Vietcong, and ending "Good Hunting": "Good Hunting? Good Christ� you'd think we were going out after deer or something�but here we were being patted on the back and receiving hopes that the next time we went out on a patrol we would find some more people to kill. How cheap life became."
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/brinkley

Annotated Version of 1971 Senate testimony



The tone was sneering. But the secretly recorded dialogue illustrates just how seriously Kerry was viewed by the Nixon White House. Some of these conversations have not been previously publicized, and Kerry said he had never heard them until they were provided by a reporter.

Day after day, according to the tapes and memos, Nixon aides worried that Kerry was a unique, charismatic leader who could undermine support for the war. Other veteran protesters were easier targets, with their long hair, their use of a Viet Cong flag, and in some cases, their calls for overthrowing the US government. Kerry, by contrast, was a neat, well-spoken, highly decorated veteran who seemed to be a clone of former President John F. Kennedy, right down to the military service on a patrol boat.

The White House feared him like no other protester.

<snip>

During private conversations with other group leaders, Kerry suggested that a veterans rally be held on the Mall in Washington, an effort Kerry hoped would refute Nixon's charge that the protesters were mostly college "bums."

"It was my sense that it wasn't going to be heard unless we went to a place where the issue was joined," Kerry said. "It was my idea to come to Washington. It was my idea to do the march. I floated that idea at the Detroit meeting. We all decided to make it happen. I became the unofficial coordinator-organizer."

Some members of the antiwar group viewed Kerry as an opportunist. He hadn't testified during the Winter Soldier hearings, hadn't organized the group, yet now he was seeking to become the coordinator and spokesman. But plenty of veterans also realized Kerry - erudite and clean-cut - was the ideal foil for those who viewed the group as hippie traitors or even communists.

So Kerry became the face of the organization, and a media sensation.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml


Kerry on the Dick Cavett show.






But Kerry's time as a combatant, and his equally well-known role as a leader of the veterans who returned from Vietnam and opposed the war, account for only part of his personal odyssey involving the war and its aftermath that symbolically culminated in Clinton's visit to Hanoi. More than any other member of Congress, it was Kerry, with his ally Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who cleared the way for normal diplomatic relations between the United States and Vietnam, beginning the process of healing the deep wounds of war. They did so largely out of the limelight, in the tedious and grinding work of a special Senate committee that was appointed to investigate the fates of Americans still missing from the war and the rumors that some of them were alive and being held captive in Southeast Asia. When the committee completed its work, Kerry, the chairman, had produced a unanimous, 585-page report that declared: "There is, at this time, no compelling evidence that proves that any American remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia."

McCain was the lightning rod for critics of the committee's more than yearlong search for the truth, but it was Kerry who held the enterprise together. A lawyer by training, he used his skills to mediate vast differences of opinion on an emotional topic within the committee and with many of those who appeared before it. According to those who watched the process, he was invariably calm, evenhanded and, above all, persistent.

<snip>

The committee's report did not eliminate the explosive POW/MIA issue, but it did much to defuse it and lift the cloud that had been hanging over the country since the fall of Saigon in 1973. A little more than a year after the report was issued in 1993, Clinton ended the U.S. trade embargo against Vietnam; the next year, the United States established formal diplomatic relations with the Vietnamese. Both steps were preceded by passage of Senate resolutions, co-sponsored by Kerry and McCain, urging the actions.

Kerry was only one of many who eased the country down the long road to reconciliation with a once-bitter enemy, but other participants in the process describe his role as "pivotal" and that of "the catalyst." "John, on behalf of this nation, brought us back to Vietnam with our heads held high," said former senator Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.), who lost part of a leg and was awarded the Medal of Honor as a Navy Seal in Vietnam. "I think only John could have done it."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50479-2004Jan2?language=printer






Veterans see Kerry as powerful symbol

Scorned, spat upon and ignored when they returned home from battle, Vietnam veterans are finding vindication and a voice in Sen. John Kerry three decades later, several veterans said yesterday.

“It’s a renaissance for us,” said Rick Hassett, 53, of Dorchester, Mass., who is in New Hampshire campaigning for the Democratic Presidential hopeful.

Hassett hopped a bus from Boston with about 20 other veterans to mobilize support for the Massachusetts senator among veterans before the Iowa caucuses. When the tired, gritty crew pulled into Des Moines 30 hours later, a crowd met them with cheers and applause.

It was a far cry from the jeers and derision that greeted the Bronze Star-decorated veteran when he came home from Vietnam in early 1972.

“It was wonderful. I was vindicated,” he said, his voice cracking slightly with emotion. “That was the welcome home I never got.”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0124d.html







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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thank you! n/t
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. After-action "spot" reports for March 1969
On Kerry's site at

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_March1969.pdf

These are not easy to decipher, and are pdf files. I've transcribed to the best of my ability. Kerry was the officer in command of PCF 94 during this incident where they picked up Rassman:





GR. PCF 23 JOINED AT CAI NUOC. PCFS WITH MSF EMBARKED DEPARTED CAI NUOC AT 1445H PROCEEDING DOWN BAY HAP. AT VQ 995770 MINE DETONATED UNDER PCF 3 LIFTING BOAT ABOUT 2-3 FEET OUT OF WATER. VERY HEAVY BLK SMOT(smoke?) OBSERVED AT SAME TIME BOATS RCVD HEAVY A/W AND S/A FROM BOTH BANKS. FIRECONTINUED FOSNABOUT 5000 METERS. TWO OTHER MINE EXPLOSIONS OVC RVED. ALL BOATS AND MSF RETURNED FIRE A D ATTEMPTED ASSIST PCF 3. PCF 94 PICKED UP MSF ADVISOR WHO WENT OVERBOARD. 94 TOWED PCF 3 AS BUCKET BRIGADE CONTROLLED FLOODING. PCF 43 TOOK ALL WIA TO USCGC SPENCER DOR TREATMENT. PCF 94 AND 51 ASSISTED PCF 3. LCVP ITH D/C PARTY WAS IMMEDIATELY DISPATCHED FROM WASHTENAW COUNTY. BOAT DAMAGE SEPARATE MESSAGE.


********(description of wounded, including Kerry and others, some "medevac" and Kerry's and several others listed as "minor." Kerry's details:

DELTA: H13MAR 69, 1530H, HSONG BAY HAP, WQ010780.HWHILE SERVING AS OFFICER IN CHARGE ABOARD PCF-94 ENGAGED IN OPERATIONS IN THE ABOVE RIVER. LTJG KERRY SUFFERED SHAPNEL WOUNDS IN HIS LEFT BUTTOCKS AND CONTUSIONS ON HIS RIGHT FOREARM WHEN A MINE DETONATED CLOSE ABOARD PCF-94

ECHO: CONDITION GOOD, PROGNOSIS EXCELLENT, PRESENCE OF NOK IS NOT MEDICALLY WARRENTED



Next of kin not to be notified, as with most of the other WIA in the same spot report.

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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
19. Wow, those folks at Counterpunch are off the page.
These guys make Chomsky seem conservative. Read some of their other articles. Clinton guilty of war crimes in Iraq? Clinton worse than Bin Laden? WTF!? I realize these fellows are rabidly anti-war, and like to defend dictators and bash America (I'm sorry, but these guys really are that far out), but those of us in the real world know better. Cockburn's article on Kerry being a war criminal is specious and contradictory, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. These fellows really are far-Left lunatics. It's like Chris Hitchens meets Lyndon LaRouche. I wouldn't take them seriously.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I don't think there is such a thing as rabidly anti-war
but I don't believe for a minute that two writers whose work has only harmed Dems and helped Bush are anti-war at all...it's an old trick to take over your opponent...the anti-war movement is being USED by these apparatchiks
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Tom Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. Take it with a grain or two of salt...
These guys think Joe Stalin was great!
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
33. Counterpunch is the "NewsMax" of the far left.
Sorry, it's true.

Anyone who would use it as an authority on anything is no better than the ditto-heads of the far right.

But, hey! Just my opinion.
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