an analysis of exactly why some clinton supporters will not vote for Obama

[Lerkfish]

here's an analysis

if you view politics as a spectrum, with batshit crazy Conservatives on one side, and treehugging LIberals on the other side, then we should have realized this would happen.
all along, DLC supporters were telling us the rest of were too "left wing" and "looney" and calling themselves "centrists". What they meant by centrists is that they were smack dab on the dividing line between liberal and conservative. Oh, sure they tried to tell us "centrist" meant in the middle of the democratic side, but that wasn't accurate.

Democratic "centrists" and Republican "moderates" have one hair's breadth between them. Meaning, it takes very little for a "centrist" to switch to vote republican, and very little for a "moderate" to switch to vote democratic.

The ironic thing is that Obama wasn't that far to the left of the centrists originally, but as Clinton identified herself more and more crossing over to the republican side in policy and tactics as the campaign wore on, and Obama tracked further left by opposing torture and other things, "centrists" have to vote as they truly are: one hair's breadth away from republicans.

[Perry Logan]

1. Just being called a racist will do the trick.

[Warren Stupidity]

Your candidate misspoke very badly on the subject of race.

That does not make you a racist. It does require some explanation, not forthcoming, from Senator Clinton. See John Edwards' over-generous comments on this issue.

If on the other hand, you meant less educated lower income white people are being called racists, and that calling them racsists may piss them off so much that they won't vote for Obama, well it seems it was Senator Clinton who did just that. Is she deliberately sabatoging our chances in 2008?

[ingac70]

4. Being called racist is making you vote for McCain? n/t

[griffi94]

16. being demonized by any gorup

would tend to make me less likely to support their goals, even if those goals are worthy of support.
people that are uncomfortable with obama are not necessarily uncomfortable because of race. it could be his youth, it could be regional differences it could be something as benign as the manner in which he speaks. to imply that the only possible reason anybody wouldn't like obama is because of his race is a little bit racist in itself.
i've noticed one thing in particular about obamas supporters that make me shy away from him. they seem to be absolutely unable to fathom why everybody doesn't love him the way they do. not trying to flame anybody but that's how i remember bushs early supporters.
we were coming off of 8 years of a democrat in the white house. in the early days of bushs presidency he could have committed acts of cannibalism on network television and his supporters would have found a way to rationalize it. i'm seeing that same thing with obama supporters now. hardcore hillary supporters are the same, but they're not the prevailing voice so what difference does it make. and anyway i've never bought into the proposition that 2 wrongs make a right.

[jazzjunkysue]

26. I disaggree. We like Obama because he's not a D.C. insider. He's not

a continuation of more of the same.

So, we're willing to accept whatever slight differences we may have with his individual policies just because we desperately want a break from these political ruling dynasties.

We really don't think he's the second coming, or anything mythical-It's his mythical rise to the ticket that's amazing.

But the man is just a man. Trust me on this: We want an outsider. Any outsider is better than what we've faced for 8 years.

[griffi94]

35. except you don't know that

an outsider would be great, but i'm not buying that he's an agent of change just because he says he is and his supoorters say it over and over. i also don't think bush was a uniter and not a divider, but his early supporters believed that, and besides he was just a working cowboy and oilman who everybody would like to have a beer with. let me be clear i'm not comparing obama to bush on policy, just on his sales technique. a real outsider would have been gravel or kucinich, but a real outsider doesn't have anymore chance of getting elected of even getting noticed than i have of being pope. obama will tweak the system a little bit should he become president, but in the end, at best he'll be about the same guy bill clinton was, because the hard sad fact is that a majority of americans don't really care about this stuff except during an election cycle. my mother, god love her, voted for bush because she could tell he was a good man by the shape of his head.
as for the political ruling dynasties, they're here forever, witness the kennedys. liberal? yep, right side of issues i care about? yep
electable to the white house? nope. money will always win in the end, except when there is absolutely an emergency like not enough food and water and medicine, then it's back to the law of the jungle.
not to be contrary but obama has already demonstrated that he's willing to soft pedal issues like nafta, and while i think he did the right thing with regard to his pastor, it wasn't the most noble thing he could have done. saying he couldn't denounce him, and then about 48 hours later denouncing him. you disagree and say you're ok with slight differences with individual policies, at what point does the apple cart tip. i'm not shilling for the clintons, but i remember when a majority here liked the clintons, and bill was the big dog. one apple at a time the cart finally tipped. i expect the same from obama.

[jazzjunkysue]

48. It's true that presidents have less power than we'd or they'd like to think.

And of course he won't get everything he wants.

But your assertion that Obama supporters are blindly in love and see rainbows and endless utopia in his wake is equally presumptive.

It's true that most people don't follow politics and that's sad. But Obama has done more to change that than any candidate in my memory. So, if the cosmetics of his candidacy can help inspire the uninformed, we'll all be better off for it. His refusal to follow the gas tax pander was evidence that he'll tell us what we need to hear, for a change, instead of always what we want to hear.

And the fact that many recent voters were able to trust him through the haze of Wright's boondogle and Hillary's race bating and the gas tax shows that we're more willing to take bad news from him than from other candidates. That seems to go for the informed as well as the clueless.

So if these are all cosmetic, they're at least in the right direction, and they give me hope that he'll follow up with more of the same once safely in office.

Do we ever get more than that pre-election?

[IsItJustMe]

43. I support Obama and I have serious differences with him. He does offer a truly different type of

leadership for this country. With the other two, you are definitely going to get more of the same.

Sad to say, but the way our system works, the two party system, you can't usually even get close to what you really want.

I will support Obama, and believe me, I do not see him as a knight in shining armor. We do what we can.

[hokies4ever]

22. Don't question the logic of Hillary supporters

:rofl:

[MyNameGoesHere]

28. Good and i won't question the assholeness of some Obama supporters.

Seems fair enough.

[hokies4ever]

29. *psst* Hillary has lost

:rofl:

[MyNameGoesHere]

32. Sure as soon as they nominate him

i will switch my support but until then, *psst* you're an asshole. And hey i almost forgot, go fuck yourself.

[hokies4ever]

34. Don't be bitter

How much money did you dump down the toilet supporting Hillary? :rofl:

[MyNameGoesHere]

36. I supported my candidate. i didn't dump anything.

I spent more on lattes anyway. And i am bitter. If you are not then you clearly haven't been paying attention Mr. Johnny Come Lately. Oh and hey did i mention that you can go fuck yourself?

[hokies4ever]

37. Strange to hear someone from WV

talking about incest the way you are. :rofl:

[MyNameGoesHere]

50. Incest? Wow a smug ass person from MA. Who would have thought so?

Incest is defined as sexual relations between closely related persons (often within the immediate family) such that it is either illegal or socially taboo. The type of sexual activity and the nature of the relationship between persons that constitutes a breach of law or social taboo varies by culture and by jurisdiction.

So my ignorant friend i guess you can make a case for you being related to yourself, but the fact remains you can go fuck yourself.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

7. Her own supporters, Charlie Wrangel included, said what she said

was dumb. I don't think he or any other thinking person believe Hillary to be racist. And, Obama certainly has never made such an accusation towards the Clinton Campaign or her supporters.

[unlawflcombatnt]

10. Obama supporters certainly HAVE made the racism charge

And they've made the racism charge repeatedly and unapologetically to boot.

I'm not voting for Obama because he's a spineless Corporate shill with no courage and no substance. The media loves him because he's not about to threaten their power structure or their wealth. After all, Obama is another rich elitist windbag, just like the Tim Russerts of the mainstream media.

Obama's just as substance-less as the media that worships him.

[tekisui]

Obama's supporters do not equal Obama's campaign.

His "rich elitist windbag" credentials pale in comparison to Hillary or Grampy McDubya.

So, are you voting for McDubya this November? Or will you be abstaining in protest?

[unlawflcombatnt]

21. I won't be voting for Obama if he's nominated, that's for sure

After that, I can't say for sure.

Despite the ranting of the Obama camp (and their continual playing of the race card), however, the primaries are not over yet.

[hokies4ever]

24. take your CA vote

and give it to McCain for all we care. You're not a true Democrat if you're not going to vote for the Dem nominee.

[stillcool]

56. Here's your race card...

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail
A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out. "Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States.
Obama is a Christian.
The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.

Clinton Co-Chair Resigns Over Obama Drug Remark
By JAKE TAPPER
Dec. 13, 2007
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3992371&page=1
Bill Shaheen, the Clinton campaign's New Hampshire co-chair, stepped down Thursday one day after publicly raising the issue of the youthful drug use of her chief opponent, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois

Shaheen, the husband of a former New Hampshire governor and an influential Democrat, was a constant presence by Clinton's side whenever she campaigned in the Granite State, where recent polls have her and Obama in a dead heat for first in that first-in-the-nation primary state.

Hours after the Wednesday release of a CNN/WMUR poll showing Obama in a statistical tie with Clinton for the first time among New Hampshire Democratic voters, Shaheen told The Washington Post that should Obama get the nomination, "one of the things Republicans are certainly going to jump on is his drug use."

Shaheen said Obama having been so open -- as opposed to then-Gov. George W. Bush, who refused to detail his past drug use during his 2000 presidential campaign -- will "open the door to further queries on the matter.
---------------------------------------
On Sunday, a second Clinton staffer -- Linda Olson, an Iowa County volunteer coordinator, who followed Jones County coordinator Judy Rose -- was asked to resign after reporters discovered she had forwarded an e-mail repeating the scurrilous allegation that Obama, a member of the United Curch of Christ, is a Muslim plant.

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008
The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's
Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-

2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Source: Newsday
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Barack Obama Accepts Apology From Hillary Clinton
Washington D.C. 12/15/2007 09:17 AM GMT (FINDITT)

Hillary Clinton went straight to Barack Obama with an apology following a staffer's remarks about any skeletons that may be lurking in Obama's closet, pointing out that she had accepted the staffer's resignation over the disparaging remarks. Obama accepted her at her word, according to his campaign staff, and is moving on without letting it interrupt his campaign plans.


Obama is currently leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, the two early primary states often considered key to the process, according to numbers at usaelectionpolls.com, but on a national level Clinton still holds a huge lead. The most recently posted poll results show Obama with 31 percent of the
probable voters in New Hampshire backing him with 29 percent showing support for Clinton.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30629&cat=5

Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores
Her Own Radical Ties
By: Justin Rood

ABC News - The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group
mentioned in the Obama stories."Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the 1970s group Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001.
In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from the Politico newspaper reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another member of the radical group.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says. Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in
her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-

clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proudmDemocrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-

johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/10/hillary-supporter-cuomo-_n_80914.html
Hillary Supporter Cuomo: Obama Tried To "Shuck And Jive" With Media
The Hillary campaign might have their own surrogate with foot-in-mouth syndrome who they'll have to deal with. During an appearance yesterday on talk radio -- at almost the same time as Obama co-chair Jesse Jackson Jr. questioned Hillary's tears -- New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo used some words about Barack Obama that have a very troublesome racial history.

"It's not a TV crazed race. Frankly you can't buy your way into it," Cuomo said, according to Albany Times Union reporter Rick Karlin. "You can't shuck and jive at a press conference," he added. "All those moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living room."

The phrase "shuck and jive" refers to mischievous blacks behaving innocently in the presence of an authority figure, so as to lie and get out of trouble.
--------------------------------------------------
Cuomo offends with 'shuck and jive' comment
By ERIK GERMAN | [e-mail]
10:13 PM EST, January 10, 2008
The 1994 book "Juba to Jive, a Dictionary of African-American Slang," says "shuck and jive" dates back to the 1870s and was an "originally southern 'Negro' expression for clowning, lying, pretense."
----------
Temple University's Nathaniel Norment Jr., a professor of African-American studies, said the history of the Cuomo's phrase made it inappropriate because it springs from an ugly period of our past.

It refers to "how black people had to behave in the presence of white people to survive. You have to shuck and jive or buck dance, you're putting on an act," Norment said. "In the context of a presidential election I think it's very derogatory to say." Melissa Mansfield contributed to this story
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politics/ny-uscuom0111,0,5229216.story

[Warren Stupidity]

14. The' charge' is about Clinton's recent statements

that, without some other explanation from her, have been rightly interpreted as racist. If she misspoke, then she needs to expain what she actually meant. She has not done that. At best she is claiming that lots of white people won't vote for the black man - that is the most generous interpretation of her remarks, and even with that generous interpretation her recent descent into racial politics has no place in our party.

[unlawflcombatnt]

27. What?

So if she correctly states that some whites won't vote for a black man, that makes her a racist? So if someone points out the truth about someone else's racial bias, it makes them a racist as well?

So if I say someone else is a racist, and won't vote for Obama because he's black, that makes me a racist as well?

That's idiotic. And it makes the Obama camp a bunch of race-baiters for making such idiotic claims. And it makes it 100% accurate to say the Obamanistas have been playing the race card from the start, and are still playing it today.

[shellgame26]

45. unFREAKINbelivable!

I cannot believe the extent to which HIllary's supporters will defend her outrageous comments! And they call Obama supporters cultists! If you have any integrity at all. Ask yourself honestly that had it been Obama who made those statements or had he said HALF of the things HIllary has during this campaign, would he still be in this race now. Face it. She is still in this because HER LAST NAME IS CLINTON. That's why people like him because he has managed to build something out of nothing.

[rodeodance]

19. nicely said. thanks.

[usrbs]

30. If you support HRC then you shouldn't vote for McCain

Period. No ifs and buts. And the same thing goes for abstaining, voting Green, or writing in someone not on the ballot if you're in a swing state.

Does Nader year 2000 ring a bell?

[stillcool]

55. You are too funny...

using every meme you can think of? Do you ever say anything original?

[Evergreen Emerald]

49. Of course Obama did...it was a campaign tactic to call the Clinton's racist

to win SC. It was a preplanned attack. After the momentum swung her way, he had his surrogates shouting "Racism!" He made it about race and vilified Bill Clinton's presidency and vilified Clinton in the process.

He brings nothing new to this election. Willie HOrton type of politics as usual.

I never understand why people think he is a "different kind of leader" he brought no changes to Ill. Nothing to the Senate. He is the same old insider.

[hokies4ever]

23. I guess the Republicans should run an ad

blaming Obama for branding Hillary as a racist. Nice to know there are people with minds so simple and so easy to subvert. :rofl:

[Moochy]

51. I think Perry should make a screaming video blog about this

complete with cheesy 1980's era video post production effects... and post it on the you tubes... I need a laugh.

[lojasmo]

2. Nice analysis. Perry Logan....not so much. EOM

[elocs]

3. If Democratic centrists are one hair's breadth away from Republicans,

then that must mean that conservative Democrats can only really be Republicans. What then are Republican centrists? Personally, I don't buy the claims of supporters of both Obama and Clinton will not vote for the other. It's a big slap in the face to supporters of the other candidate and it makes for great press on polls. The ultimate slam is to say they will vote for McCain--meaning your candidate is so despicable to me that I will actually vote for a Republican rather than support them.

[griffi94]

5. here's a question for you

what happens after obama secures the nomination and has to move to the right to appeal to the centrists and moderates.
he can't win without them so he'll have to at least look like he's moving to the center.
will the true liberals still support him, or will they go with somebody like nader.
obama has been built up as more than a political candidate, and imo that's a chancy thing at best.
i've witnessed many members here call for the heads of pelosi and reid. i'm not making a case for or against, simply pointing out that
he will have to appeal to centrists and moderates, and while those particular groups want change, they don't want any change that they find scary. probably we'll see some form of universal healthcare, but i'm not expecting any major changes in the way americans deal politics. remember that to the far right bush is a moderate. and although he's been a disaster he did get 2 terms because the middle was more comfortable with him than gore or kerry.

[Jersey Devil]

9. Ironically, that was one of Hillary's biggest mistakes

She was so overconfident about having the nomination wrapped up that she ran for the nomination as though she was running in the general election by moving to the right and running as a "centrist".

I am not so certain Obama has to "move to the center" as you describe. It seems that right now everyone across the entire political spectrum, save perhaps the far right whose votes Dems would never get anyway, wants an end to the war in Iraq and some kind of universal health care.

[griffi94]

18. obama will have to move center

if he wants to win. if he doesn't he'll be painted by the gop and the media as another northern liberal who doen't get it in the midwest, the south or the mountain states.
i think it's in everybody in those regions best interests to change leadership, but americans frequently don't vote in their best interests.
if you could be president with the westcoast and the northeast we'd be finishing gores 2nd term.
while the war is a major issue i think it'll be about 3 deep on typical americas priority list. economy, price of fuel, jobs are going to dominate. ending the war would be great, but polls already show that it's down the list from the economy.
this isn't a gotcha thing but the statements he made with regard to nafta will be trotted out and used to smear him as another politician who will say whatever he has to to get elected. all politicians do that, but imo obama let the expectation of him being more than a politician get out of hand., so what happens when he has to start disappointing the more idealistic wing of his supporters.

[unlawflcombatnt]

6. Obama is more right-wing the Hilary by a long shot

It's Obama who looks down his nose at working people and thinks they have no reason to blame illegal immigration or outsourcing for costing them jobs, or suppressing wages. It's Obama that says we need MORE globalization and MORE free trade. It's Obama's camp that told Canada not to worry about a repeal of NAFTA, thus reassuring America's Benedict Arnold multinational Corporations that their ill-begotten profits from outsourcing were safe.

Obama is another Corporate shill who'll do and say anything to get elected. He's no friend of working Americans or middle class Americans.

Hilary is far more in tune with the majority of Americans than elitist Obama.

Obama is the more Corporatist of the two, and the least populist of the two.

[earthlover]

11. so someone born black is an elitist?

That's hilarious on its face! Blacks being an elite in our culture....

Piffle!

[unlawflcombatnt]

15. Who's the racist now?

So you're saying a black man can't be an elitist???

That's ridiculous.

Or could you be a racist yourself?

I'll have to take note of your words of enlightenment:
If you're "born" black, you can't be an elitist.

Who'd have thunk it? I've learned something new today.

[earthlover]

54. I was not aware that blacks in our culture were as a whole treated as elites

Did that happen when the Constitution called them 3/5 of a person?

Did that happen on the slave ships?

Did that happen on the plantations?

Did that happen during the Jim Crow era?

Did that happen as a result of Plessy v Ferguson?

Did that happen in the military which segregated black units for years and years?

Did that happen at Little Rock, Selma, Montgomery, etc etc?

I'm sorry, but when I hear the word elite I think of a group that is pretty much born into special privilege and wealth.

Obama graduated with honors from Harvard Law School and instead of getting a lucrative job right away he went to the south side of Chicago to do community work. Is that the mark of someone in some sort of elite? It's not as if he used his family's influence to get on the Board of Directors of Walmart during that time....

[dansolo]

13. Replace Obama with Hillary, and you will be correct

Hillary is no friend of the working class.

[unlawflcombatnt]

20. Who wants a moratorium on free trade agreements?

Hilary Clinton, that's who.


But who disdains blue collar Pennsylvanians for correctly blaming illegal immigration and globalization for costing Americans jobs and suppressing wages?

Oh! That's right, it was Barack Obama.


Who "rejects" the idea that the increased supply of labor from illegal immigration suppresses wages?

Oh! That's right, it was Barack Obama.


Who told Canada not to worry about him repealing NAFTA?

Oh! That's right, it was Barack Obama.


Who says we "can't stop globalization, and we shouldn't try"?

Oh! That's right, it was Barack Obama -- again.


Hilary is a much, MUCH better friend of the working class than elitist crybaby Barack Obama. Everyone outside the elitist world of Obama and his cult knows it. That's why he's losing blue collar support, and Hilary is winning it.

[EFerrari]

41. So, is Hillary going to make Bill give his $800K speaking fee back

to Colombia? Right. I'll believe that as much as I believe Penn, who is also working that street, is off the campaign.

You seriously don't know what you're supporting.

[WinkyDink]

8. "...why some Clinton supporters will not vote for Obama" is so far a myth.

There is no point, thus, in "an analysis" of it.

[Lerkfish]

12. riiiiiight. I've seen NO threads claiming such.

:sarcasm:

[onehandle]

17. 1) At the poll, they will vote for the nominee. (People talk trash during the primary)

2) Obama is a centrist.

[Vinca]

25. I think all Democrats will come to their senses in November.

Especially since McBush now wants to ban abortion with no exception for incest, rape or life of the mother.

[The Night Owl]

31. I really don't think that LIHOPers/MIHOPers such as yourself are qualified to judge...

...where anyone stands on the political spectrum.

[Lerkfish]

39. LOL! hilarious post of the DAY!

absolutely hillarious.

[Solon]

33. Where is the evidence that Obama is drifting leftward?

I don't see it, and no, opposing torture doesn't count.

All this argument of yours boils down to is that both Clinton and Obama are only a hair's breadth away from being Republicans.

[depakid]

40. He did call for more regulation of Wall Street

in a policy speech some weeks ago. Other than that, I can't think of too much.

More or less, they're both Rockefeller Republicans- Hillary closer to Nixon in some ways, perhaps.

[shadowknows69]

38. Chuck D says it's "Fear of a Black Planet"

[democraticinsurgent]

42. Opposing torture = Tracking Further Left

WTF?

[Egnever]

52. yea pretty much blows the whole premise of the thread no?

[SaveAmerica]

44. I guess moderate Republicans who don't want McCain will cancel out moderate Dems who vote him

Unless the moderate dems realize that doing that will give us a close election that is stealable (is that a word?) and vote for Obama to help us hit it out of the ballpark.

[caseycoon]

46. After the last 8 years...

I find it hard to believe that ANY Democrat would actually vote for McCain. Or even many republicans. Obviously neither Clinton or Obama was my first choice, or even my second choice, but I will vote for the Dem nominee no matter who it is. 4 more years of Bush tactics & the further ruination of our country is just not acceptable to me. What will our children's or grandchildren's future be like if McCain gets elected? What will you tell them? I voted for him because I was pissed off? Sorry to have helped fuck up your world even more that it was?
PLEASE give this some serious thought!

[westerebus]

47. Does this mean...

if you're a moderate DEM by definition you must hug trees in search of bat-shit? Did someone change the recipe for the kool-aid again? :P