What's been done to Hillary, she did to herself.

[TheWraith]

This is in response to Radio Lady's thread about a "verbal lynching" of Hillary Clinton, found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5926709

I'm going to completely bypass the issue of the metaphor, other than to say that I think anyone who knows anything about what "lynching" means would not use the term lightly.

The truth is that the worst damage Hillary Clinton has suffered in this primary, she herself inflicted. Nobody forced her to pick up Karl Rove's playbook. Nobody forced her into fearmongering, or catering to racial bias, or blaming the media when things didn't go well for her. She chose those things.

She chose to employ dirt and attacks rather than talk about issues. She chose to play by the same rules the Republicans used against her and her husband all those years, having apparently forgotten why it was wrong. And she chose to alienate the Democratic base by telling them to get on board with a pro-war candidate, or be ignored.

She started off with a prohibitive lock on the Democratic nomination, along with a massive war chest, and by way of mismanagement and ham-handedness, she squandered it. That's not a lynching. That's self inflicted wounds.

Hillary Clinton hasn't been hung, she's been hoisted, and by her own petard. There's no doubt that Obama ran a stellar campaign, out organizing, out raising, and out campaigning her. But the person who did her the most damage was herself.

[KittyWampus]

1. yes, and the lampooning she will now get is what happens to a candidate who loses but refuses

to get the f*ck out of the race.

[WillyT]

4. The Very Definition Of Blind Ambition...

She STILL can't see how this is all going to end.

:shrug:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

59. definition for "hoisting on one's own petard"

The OP used this phrase, and I wanted to make sure it DID apply to the Clinton campaign.

It DOES:

"Hoist with his own petard"

The word remains in modern usage in the phrase to be hoist by one's own petard, which means "to be harmed by one's own plan to harm someone else" or "to fall in one's own trap", literally implying that one could be lifted up (hoisted, or blown upward) by one's own bomb. Shakespeare used the now proverbial phrase in Hamlet.


...In medieval and Renaissance siege warfare, a common tactic was to dig a shallow trench close to the enemy gate, and then erect a small hoisting engine that would lift the lit petard out of the trench, swing it up, out, and over to the gate, where it would detonate and hopefully breach the gate. It was not impossible, however, that this procedure would go awry, and the engineer lighting the bomb could be snagged in the ropes and lifted out with the petard and consequently blown up. Alternately, and perhaps a more likely scenario, if the petard were to detonate prematurely due to a faulty or short slow match, the engineer would be lifted or 'hoist' by the explosion.

Thus to be 'hoist with his own petar' is to be caught up and destroyed by his own plot. Hamlet's actual meaning is "cause the bomb maker to be blown up with his own bomb", metaphorically turning the tables on Claudius, whose messengers are killed instead of Hamlet. Also note here, Shakespeare's probable off-color pun "hoisted with his own petar" (i.e., fart) as reason for the spelling "petar" rather than "petard".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard

[Cha]

123. Thank you for that definition, WillYourVoteBCounted..

I looked it up awhile ago and it fits so many politicians who try to fool the people by any means necessary but none so much as the bushits and bilary.

[Missouri Blue]

136. Actually, I feel sorry for her.

She, Bill and her campaign were supposed to be shoe-ins for the nomination. I mean, she positioned herself that way and spent years putting her campaign in place, she had dedicated people to run it, she voted in all the safe, calculated ways.

She was the sure thing. Mostly, what happened to her was that the Democratic Party changed. It had an influx of new people and new money, from previously "silent" progressives, who previously saw politics as wearisome and corrupting, but were then activated by disgust with and fear from Dubya, and who are repulsed by any resemblance politicians might have to him.

Another thing that changed is the growing political effect of the internet, that has made politics far less boring, and has also allowed politicians to bypass special interest and appeal actively and directly to ordinary people for funds.

But the most unexpected thing has been Obama, who as an experienced community organizer, was able to put this all together into a powerful campaign-- probably the best campaign this country has seen for a century.

I could forgive the Clintons for being slow to grasp all of it, because right now, they don't know what hit them. They are on the mat at the 10 count dreaming that they are up and still fighting.

[NightWatcher]

2. the word "lynching" in reference to anything about Obama is unforgivable

but I guess it was other people that caused Hillary to run a terrible campaign finance machine too

[Zhade]

10. clinton and her supporters know its implications, and it fits with their race-baiting.

NT!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

54. lynching - burning, castrating, & hanging a BLACK male, not criticicizig rich white politicia

its the old Poor Hillary syndrome, in between spats of toughness and shot throwing back
and ducking sniper fire.

Thank you for posting this.

[Muttocracy]

12. agreed

she ended up on my ignore list for that, but now looking at her further comments and posting, no apology for it, even to the poster whose grandfather was actually lynched. Wow, tuning out that DU station again.

[Bread and Circus]

3. K and R. I thought the "lynching" thread was absurd and way out of line.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Clinton supporters know perfectly well what it means. They simply don't care.

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. They use things that I first see at Little green footballs

Free Repuglic and other known sites that later get picked up by Taylor Marsh,
and other 'sites'. I know this because I see it there first
then see it here two days later.

They never give us any news against or about the Bush Regime, John McCain
or Late Breaking News.

It is pitiful.

[Eric Condon]

78. Of course they don't - look who they're supporting. nt

[natrat]

83. yea that's what it comes down to and just ignoring the ugly facts, it's wierd

[Kittycat]

6. K&R for the truth

I've been talking about this since January. At first, I honestly had some sympathy for her, in what Penn&Co was doing to her. Now I see that it was her own thoughtless arrogance that drove the bus off of the cliff. There's something to be said of a candidate that employs loyalists, over honesty - Bush is a glaring example of why we should run far, far away from that type of failed leadership.

[Mimosa]

14. Ka-Ching! "the glaring example"

Kittycat, you are right. I fear that kind of 'leader.' Dubya Bush and Hillary are appearing to have certain characteristics in common, such as doing whatever it takes to destroy their opponents.

[sasquatch]

7. k & r

:kick:

[tularetom]

8. She didn't just do it to herself

She pretty much trashed whatever was left of the clinton "legacy", by making herself and bill into buffoons and caricatures of themselves.

Although bill was doing pretty well at trashing it before she started in.

Now when I think of the clintons, I see red faced finger wagging bill clinton telling us that white people support hillary and that's why she's gonna win.

Then I imagine him flying off to kenny bunk port to spend a weekend with his new BFF and adopted daddy, gwh boosh.

Both clintons have managed to make themselves into a national joke.

[Zhade]

9. No one forced her to lie about things like Tuzla and her support for NAFTA, either.

She did it to herself, indeed.

HUGE K/R for the truth in your OP.

[VolcanoJen]

11. That thread you linked to was profoundly disturbing.

There are truly no words. None.

[TheWraith]

17. Indeed. I'd have really gone off on her about the use of the word "lynching," except...

... It's against the rules to call out DUers.

Really though, it seems to me to be beyond the pale.

[bridgit]

13. That was not the generalized thought on Reliable Sources this morning...

Move past Howie Kurtz for a moment, but the 'journalists' on the show, and elsewhere, were/are pleased with themselves for steering the dem primary to the point it is at today. They can do that...they're the 4th estate. They can put innocent people on very public trial or not, nasty pics of you leaving rehab, grannie's teeth in a 'half glass full' of water, tempests in teacups, sink holes instead of health care, drum beats to war, the whole nine...

And yeah, HRC's bought some dumb stuff too: like a gasoline powered turtleneck sweater. But the media has at few if any turns been kind to her. And very likely because she is what she is. A known & stationary target.

[dailykoff]

16. Let me guess, CNN.

Five minutes, no thirty seconds of that claptrap tells you all you need to know: neocons flogging neocons including the ringer in the yellow pantsuit.

[bridgit]

19. Without doubt, but what do you watch? KO? Sunday mornings some time back now...

I'd post *Howie Kurtz Sucks* threads and we'd all have fun & sport tearing it all to little pieces, yeah...good times, good times. But he had 'obama journalists' on today...why are you not pleased; how can that be wrong :shrug: plus they were flogging the yellow pant-suit that's good, right? :thumbsup:

[dailykoff]

21. The world according to CNN is a funny place.

It looks real but it isn't. I could tell from they way they were spinning in your last post it was some kind of CNN show. As for Hillary, every second of their coverage of this race I've seen, including the debates they sponsored, have been setups to show Obama in a poor light, ask him gotcha question, literally distort his face in unflattering ways, etc.

By "flogging" I mean selling, not flaying, sorry for the confusion.

[bridgit]

25. I completely agree. Before Foxnews came along, I thought CNN was the only...

example of a simple obomination...but the shit just keeps on come'n :(

[Triana]

15. I have to agree. She has caricatured herself. Didn't need much help from us. n/t

[nomorewhopper]

18. hillary clinton sickens me and i will not forgive her

[eridani]

20. The real problem has been her constant use of REpuke FRAMING

Repeating the 'elitist' frame and the 'fear' frame would hurt her own candidacy in the general election every bit as much as it would hurt Obama. I put it down to shortsightedness--the same shortsightedness that caused her to avoid having plans for after Feb 5th.

[Dark]

22. What pissed me off the most was her comment about her and McCain having the experience

to be pres, but not Obama.

You should not eat your own.

[Obamamaniac_25]

23. Yeah running a GE campaign against a fellow democrat

The list of outrages from her is long and deep.

[me b zola]

75. I have had the same thought

That Hillary is running a GE campaign against Obama. And there are a few who would have the gaul to say that Obama isn't tough enough? I can not think of any other candidate who has been forced to compete in two GEs--I guess Obama is just "lucky to be who he is". :sarcasm:

[delt664]

98. That was the exact moment I decided to support Obama.

Any candidate who would even leave it open for interpretation that there may be an implied endorsement of McCain is not my candidate. At that moment I knew how this primary was going to happen, and I was right.

[RiverStone]

24. All true, and it is sad that she was unable to see...

...what her reflection in the mirror turned into.

[Cha]

125. hilary sees only White..'cause that's her latest ticket trick.

[NanceGreggs]

26. K & R ...

No one has done more damage to Hillary than she has done to herself.

[donheld]

27. She did herself more damage than 10 Obamas combined!

She has nobody to blame but herself. NOBODY!

[ccharles000]

29. I still adore her.

[The Doctor.]

86. BTW, In case I haven't mentioned it...

Thank you for being rational in your support for her.

Frankly, I like both candidates still, even though I can see the very clear reasons that people are disenchanted with her.

What I can't understand is how her more rabid supporters scream "Sexism!!!" if someone simply points out that she's been dishonest, or otherwise takes a stab at her for her behavior. It boggles the mind that her supporters can accuse Obama people of "brainless worship" after the reasons for his support have been laid out so thoroughly.

I'd also like to apologize to you for anything you may have found offensive... I can assure you that any derision I've levelled has been at the feet of the very small minority of her supporters who have lost their grip on reality, not the grown-ups like yourself who are a brilliant example of clear-headed, rational support.

Thanks.

[Kahuna]

120. Of course you do. She's a wonderful fairy princess who loves us all.

O8)

[TexasObserver]

30. A Campaign is a reflection of its candidate. Hers reflected a poor candidate, behaving badly.

[Raine]

31. Totally on point!

Hillary is reaping what she herself has sown.

[liberalla]

32. You're exactly right. She brought this on herself.

I have been shocked and disturbed watching her go lower and lower. I can't believe she chose this strategy as her supposed method to beat Obama? How could she go there? How could she have thought this was a winning strategy and would be well received? She's lost her bearings and her objectivity, in my opinion.

She's had many opportunities to pause, reevaluate and choose not to take the lowest road. The lowest road seems to be her fall-back position.

I scratch my head in bewilderment.

[McCamy Taylor]

33. Here is Axelrod using Bhutto's death to bash Clinton, blames her for Bhutto's death

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Barack_Obama:_Reaction_to_assassination_of_Benazir_Bhutto

David Axelrod is a piece of work.

[madrchsod]

50. david axlerod? the guy bill clinton wanted to run his 1992 campaign?

the guy who hillary hired to do her campaign commercials when she ran for the senate...that david axlerod?

ya he is a piece of work because bill wanted him and so did hillary...nice try but the facts speak for themselves.

it was`t axlerod... it was the bag of garbage that hillary hired and is responsible for---mark penn who killed her nomination chances in iowa and we see the result.

[TheWraith]

51. Oh please. Clinton supporters are the only people on Earth who read it that way.

Anybody looking at it rationally sees it for exactly what it is, a response to a direct question about how Bhutto's death affects the campaign.

[McCamy Taylor]

34. In early July when majority of Blacks supported Clinton, Obama team issued "Race Memo"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/17/obama-unhappy-with-aides-_n_81990.html

The memo contained three lies which people like Keith Olbermann, NBC, MSNBC, Bob Herbert at the NYT, Donna Brazile, Rep. Clyburne, CBS spread for a week before they stopped the smear against the Clintons as I document here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5692877

[TheWraith]

60. Right, because it's not like the Clintons have used or exploited race in the campaign.

And you know, it makes you look really foolish when you claim that somebody's attacking you who was still on your side at the time--specifically, Keith Olbermann, who openly admitted the other night that he was privately for Clinton in the early part of the race.

[Writer]

71. Wow. That memo must have worked. n/t

[Cha]

126. He admitted that?! Wow! Some on here

thought he was favoring hilary until she pulled The :scared:Fear Card and then it was all over for her as far as KO was concerned.

[Writer]

70. Wow. You know? Now I understand that I'm dealing with irrational voters.

who have been swayed by this bullshit. This is disgusting, disgraceful manipulation of racial sentiments.

But remember now - Bill and Hillary CLINTON are racists, right? And THEY'RE the one playing racial games, right? Bullshit.

I hope to God that this stuff bubbles to the surface much like the truth about the Iraq War did, and that a public held by irrational exuberance for a candidate will soon see the truth.

It will take time.

[Raineyb]

74. Excuse me?

Early July?

Obama didn't start to get the majority of the black vote until late January so your beginning premise is false on its face. Besides, I see no reason why he wouldn't keep a list of any time the Clintons used racially divisive language. It would certainly be evidence of why one wouldn't want Clinton on the ticket as VP. Of course that would be on the assumption that Obama was the one keeping the memo. As he was not happy with them I don't think that's an assumption I'd make.

Now you're certainly within your rights to disbelieve Obama. As for me, I'll give Obama the benefit of the doubt considering the track record of his opponent.

Not for nothing, but I don't need a memo to know race baiting when I hear it.

Regards

[Writer]

91. I think Maddy meant January.

The two articles posted are from January.

[Raineyb]

106. I'll give her January.

But I stand by the rest of my statement about the "race memo."

Regards

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

97. As a black woman...

I am appalled that you have Martin Luther King, Jr. in your avatar when your candidate, Hillary Clinton, made a mockery of his legacy by playing the race card for nefarious political ends.

SHAME ON YOU!!

You have absolutely no right to debase MLK's legacy in that way. It's so disgusting that I can't even speak!!

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Obama sought to portray Clinton as just as "housewife" on foreign policy and as a "liar" like Gore

Note that Gary Hart did not chastise him for breaking the so called "final rule"--give a talking point to the RNC to use against the then front runner in the fall campaign by belittling for foreign policy experience. And she did not lie when she said that she had been praised for her work in helping to bring peace to North Ireland and facilitate the release of refugees in the Balkans to prevent genocide. All she erred about was sniper fire. Obama lied during the ABC debate when he said that his campaign had not sought to propel the sniper story. ABC called him out on his lie. Memos released by the Obama camp prove that they sought to persuade the press to air the sniper story during the Wright controversy (to distract the press) and that they also sought to disseminate lies about Clinton's foreign policy experience which were easily debunked by a cursory search of the internet---something that sympathetic members of the press like KO could be counted upon not to do.

Here is my journal in which I document that Clinton did indeed have the foreign policy experience which she claimed---note that she never claimed that she was running for president of dodging through sniper fire. She claimed that she was able to negotiate peace and free hostages and was willing to enter a war zone to do it, all of which is true. Obama's camp turned the truth on its head and painted Clinton a liar just as Rove painted Gore a liar in 2000.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/207

[The Doctor.]

81. Let's have the quotes. What? You're just making it up?

Whatta shock!!!

For months now I've been asking you people to PRODUCE EVIDENCE of your claims and guess what?

You've provided NOTHING.

Not one of you have provided any jsutification for your claims of Obama or his campaign being 'sexist' or 'dirty'.

So please, until you decide to rejoin reality, don't mind me if I shove your bullshit back in your face.

Cheers.

Dr. E

[McCamy Taylor]

36. "Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)" the memo Obama tried to release anonymously

should have been a warning that his campaign talked one way and played another. They excuse it now by saying that she used the term as a joke. There is a big difference between making a self referential joke and issuing an ethnically divisive memo which your campaign is so embarrassed by that it tries to keep it secret.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3318701

[TheWraith]

55. ...And the person responsible was immediately fire. In contrast, Clinton did NOT fire...

Mark Penn, who was behind pushing all the major smears; Howard Wolfson, who pushed the blatantly false plagarism story; Bill, who dismissed Obama as a blacks-only candidate; or a dozen others.

So let's see: Bad joke = punishable by death. Swiftboating = okay. Glad to know where you're coming from.

[CaptJasHook]

101. What a load of Crap.

How does racism fit into that memo. India, in case you didn't know, is a country. A country that includes multiple ethnicities. It is also a country that has been near the top of the list of places corporations are off-shoring our jobs to.

How in the name of all that is holy is that racist? You are completely collapsing a legitimate argument for the working class into an obscene view of racism.

Unbelievable.

[Fedja]

105. Punjab?

What you did there is a felony where I live.

[barack the house]

37. If Obama had ran a campaign aginst all Democratic values he would have the same response by his own

doing. But clearly he has not.

[McCamy Taylor]

38. Obama verbally "burned her at the stake" in November based on the word of Bob Novak

who said that Clinton had dirt on Obama that she had decided not to use. Instead of calling Novak a liar, Obama went public and called Clinton a dirty trickster before the Iowa primary--where people hate dirty tricks.

Today, Novak said he has info on the Obama's and the Obama camp said, in effect that no Democrat would ever tell Novak anything or believe anything he had to say.

[TheWraith]

63. You seem to have forgotten that the Clinton campaign is STILL spreading the rumor Novak published.

Specifically, that they have some hugely damaging information on Obama in their quiver. You really think that they didn't tell that to Novak in an attempt to torpedo Obama?

[CaptJasHook]

102. He is also ignoring the Clinton's ties to Novak,nt

[McCamy Taylor]

39. Undeclared Obama surrogate Rep. Clyburne announced "ALL African-Americans believe

that Clinton...."

is staying in the race in order to kill Obama's hope of being elected. Funny, Clyburn is pretty much the first person I heard say that. Almost like he was trying to get people to believe it by saying "Oh, everyone knows that Clinton is only in the race to hurt Obama's chances. Didn't you know that?" I wouldn't be so suspicious, if he weren't one of the first to go around publicizing the lies contained in the "Race Memo" in January that caused so much division within the party.

[TheWraith]

58. That is NOT what Clyburn said.

What Clyburn said was that that's what he was hearing from some people, both in his district and in Congress. He never said everybody or all black people thought that, as if he could even speak for all black people. And if he's the first one you heard that from, you haven't been listening closely, because that started coming up regularly here and elsewhere during Obama's 12-straight run, many weeks ago.

[CaptJasHook]

103. I have been reading multiple blogs

on the Afrospear network and they were saying the same thing Clayburn said for the last month. Try again.

[McCamy Taylor]

40. Let's not forget the role that the news media has played in lighting that bonfire under the witch.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/157

The Press v. Hillary Clinton I

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/158

The Press vs. Hillary Clinton Pt 2 Lets Get Political

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4977117

The Press v. Hillary Clinton III: Leaping Lesbians

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/160

The Press v Hillary Clinton 4 Friendly Fire


Who knew that Clinton could write so much copy and that she was a master of disguise? And that she could appear on so many different news networks simultaneously in order to trash herself?

[TheWraith]

65. Okay. Now compile a list of negative comments about Obama.

You can start with "He's not a muslim, as far as I know."

Because if you only highlight a few collections of negative blog comments and pundit criticisms, while ignoring the 12-plus months of "inevitable frontrunner" status, the steadfast ignoring of Clinton's dirt in favor of sexier stories like Wright, and the fact that if it were anybody but Clinton this campaign would have been considered dead after Super Tuesday... Well, if you ignore all of the other stuff, then you're just spinning.

Thanks for all the kicks, though.

[McCamy Taylor]

92. I did. I have three journals "The Press vs. Barack Obama" at DU

[grasswire]

115. we all know the b**ch asked for it

Don't they always?

:/sarcasm:

[McCamy Taylor]

41. Ferraro ran her mouth off, Clinton apologized and denounced her words, but KO STILL has

his special comment in which he demands that she repudiate Ferraro as a human being up on his website, and he says that if people misunderstand and think that Clinton specifically told Ferraro to say the wrong thing, even if she did not it is Clinton's fault and that makes her a racist for not being sensitive enough to the feelings of others and making sure that they could never get the wrong impression, even if they get the wrong impression because other people lie about her.

Does that mean that if I think that KO is secretly a woman hating prick, even if he is not really, it is his own fault?

And how come Obama does not have to reject anyone as a human being? Why is there a double standard? How can anyone who likes sports be so blatantly unfair? This is what a nasty parent does when he is trying to make two siblings hate each other.

If this was somebody besides KO, I would assume that he was deliberately trying to create a big fat divide within the Democratic Party, pitting men against women and Blacks against whites in order to watch them fight for the fun of it.

[TheWraith]

62. You seem to have completely missed the point of KO's commentary.

The point was that her denunciation of Ferraro was so tepid that it could be read as tacitly approving of her comments for campaign reasons. And that that represented a missed opportunity to show what clean campaigning was about. Moreover, that the lack of clean campaigning, in this year of all years, constituted a form of political suicide--and he was dead on accurate.

[CaptJasHook]

104. I must move you to ignore now. You are hitting all my buttons.

Sorry McCamy, but you are playing some politics.

Ferraro was stupid to say what she said. The fact that it was a repeat of comments she made in the past that were allowed to slide shows that she has had the entitled soft racism for a long time now.

Obama was asked by HILLARY TO BOTH REJECT AND DENOUNCE FARAKHAN ON LIVE TV.

You are living in dreamland of have become so partisan that your rationality is compromised.

[Eurobabe]

42. Hillary and her supporters need to stop playing the victim

Ms. Thang brought this on herself.

[Writer]

69. Then stop victimizing her, and stop calling her names. n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

43. Caucus fraud in Texas. Remember, there are no caucuses in the GE

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/04/texas-caucus-fraud/

The Obama people ordered Mrs. A. to sit across the room during the delegate calculation, and excluded Hillary supporters from the process. Mrs. A. overheard an Obama supporter call in a false delegate count to Austin. In a 13 delegate precinct where Obama should have won approximately 4 delegates, the Obama supporters attempted to award 19 delegates to Obama. This was not innocent. During my attempts at cell phone diplomacy, the Obama “chair” hung up on me, and refused to talk to the ethical Obama organizer I was paired with at another precinct convention. As with all major attempts at fraud that we identified, this delegate count was rectified in private at the county TDP headquarters, according to TDP rules, but there were no public charges or sanctions. It is my opinion that people should be in jail, but there is not a mechanism for this sort of prosecution, certainly not within TDP rules.

Although I have only volunteered in one state, virtually every Clinton staffer I have talked to has similar stories from other caucus states. While the Hillary field campaign operates and feels very much like typical Democratic campaigns, the Obama campaign is something new to Democratic politics. From my perspective, it looks like it has copied the worst attributes of Republican campaigns, but with unprecedented zeal.

Ironically, only in very well-organized areas like El Paso were we able to even identify the scale of the attempted irregularities. In these areas, we were also able to rebuff most attempts at fraud, correct fraudulent delegate counts, and protect our voters. In less well-organized areas, we did not have enough eyes and ears to identify or stop fraud, and our numbers plunged.

[TheWraith]

52. And yet, there's no actual EVIDENCE of fraud other than anecdotes from Clinton-supporting blogs. nt

[McCamy Taylor]

44. A fellow Democrat was labelled a witch, tied to a stake and figuratively burned.

By a bunch of people who do not even realize that the real enemy at this point is the division which they have helped to create within the party. And their chosen candidate, despite his words, has been busy dividing, too.

Demand that Obama live up to his words. He is your candidate. Make him play fair. Unless all you want is slogans and actions that do not match the words.

[TheWraith]

61. Um, that's your perspective. It doesn't line up with reality.

Clinton had every possible opportunity to fight cleanly. She ignored every one of them.

If you really think Obama was the more divisive, then why pray tell did Clinton lose, while Obama brought in millions of enthusiastic new voters and people who found his message uniting?

[Perry Logan]

45. This is Clintophobe Meme #247: everything is always the Clintons' fault.

[JTFrog]

46. As opposed to the Clintonian Meme #1: Everything is the media's fault.

Or Obama's supporters fault.

She can't be responsible for anything if she is a perpetual victim.

:thumbsup:

[Perry Logan]

47. No. I believe those are Obamite Memes #248 and 249.

[Prophet 451]

80. And anyone who uses the phrase "Clintophobe" is a dipshit

The phrases "Clintophobe" and "Clinton Derangement Syndrome" are no different than the pack of right-wing idiots who invented "Bush Derangement Syndrome", they can't see why anyone would oppose their messiah of a candidate so they assume prejudice or simply invent bullshit like "Clinton Derangement Syndrome".

[The Doctor.]

88. Right, after all... it's not HER fault she lied, or promoted a Republican

over a fellow Democrat, or....

Waitaminute.... I just realized....


I'm actually sane, why am I dealing with you?

[closeupready]

48. She's a good person, I believe, but I do agree she has been criticized fairly.

n/t

[madrchsod]

49. she is`t responsible for hiring mark penn

she is`t responsible for her staff that spent 20+ to come in third in iowa.....the list is to long to go any further

she has only one person to blame--hillary clinton.

[McCamy Taylor]

93. Obama is responsible for Axelrod and his politics of personal destruction, too.

[invictus]

53. Hillary "obliterated" any respect I had for her with her slimy, racist, right-wing campaign. n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

56. LOL, maybe she was wounded by sniper fire

and it caused brain damage.

[Arugula Latte]

57. K & R. Well said, TheWraith.

Well said. :toast:

:kick:

[DemGa]

64. Team Obama ran a stellar smear campaign

Constant and surreptitious assaults on Hillary's honesty and integrity - well done! Karl Rove is grinning ear to ear.

[TheWraith]

66. Evidently they did it so well that nobody but Clinton supporters ever saw any of it.

Must be those special glasses that they include in every package of Kool Aide.

[Clear Blue Sky]

67. Text book case of "How not to run a campaign"...

[Writer]

68. If you're not part of the reason for propagating dirt about Clinton, then why write this at all?

It's so much easier to blame the victim than to take personal responsibility for smearing every last inch of her.

She made mistakes and you enhanced them into intentional acts of evil. She made missteps and you said she was stupid, conniving, and manipulative.

You never gave her the same benefit of the doubt that you gave Obama. If only Clinton were a "typical white woman" worth snubbing at the State of the Union, right? Oh no... but Obama simply makes mistakes, right? And he doesn't possess the same evil intent as Clinton, right? The clairvoyance in this forum is astounding. (sarcasm)

You've convinced yourselves of your own verisimilitude, but the problem lies not in the stars, but in yourselves.

Take responsibility.

[TheWraith]

82. If you're not blindly forgiving her actions, then why do you believe she's not guilty?

Anyone and everyone who's not blindly loyal to the Clintons recognizes that they instigated every major instance of smearing in this campaign. And if you knew much about me, you'd know that I stood in front of Hillary a bunch of times here on DU versus the anti-war crowd, arguing that she wasn't as bad as they made her out to be. Frankly, this election proved I was wrong about her.

[Writer]

90. Guilty of what - trying to win an election?

This is your attempt to stir the dirt - to antagonize Clinton supporters further by claiming that we're somehow "blind" to the guilt that "so obviously" exists, although it's your perception from your mind.

I think you've just become a victim of your own OP. You yourself are continuing to smear one candidate while turning a blind eye to the actions of the other.

They BOTH are trying to win an election. And you have done your job, as an Obama supporter, of propagating the mythos now surrounding Hillary Clinton.

[liberaldem4ever]

72. Great post-K&R!!!!

:kick:

[Orsino]

73. Nothing is being done to Senator Clinton.

She ran a hugely successful campaign, and was simply out-competed by Obama's somewhat grassroots strategy.

[marions ghost]

108. successful?

:eyes:

Hillary was anointed and promoted --talk about a head start!--and yet she was still caught by Obama. He did much better than expected, she did worse than expected. And she even had the "bring back Bill" factor going for her.

The only way she has been successful is in appealing to a whole lot of people who really don't understand how they have been used. There can be no denying that she has tapped into and defined a significant number of voters who will support a woman no matter what. That's worth paying attention to.

But for someone who started out with a lot of "negatives" Hillary sure has added to that bag of negatives. She sank to the level of the neocons with her thuggish campaign & its deplorable race and class baiting. Even knowing how the Clintons always find a way to win, I'm still kinda shocked at it.

Whatever it is --this campaign does not meet my definition of "success" in the positive sense of the word.

[Orsino]

139. One key strategy...

...was simply the selling of Brand Hillary, and yes, it met with tons of success. We might deride it as her having married into third base, and trying to steal home, but that leaves out the tens of millions who still strongly support her.

Yeah, she's successful. Obama has been much, much more so.

[Cha]

127. "Successful campaign"?! No, it's not..there's reams written

on what went wrong from the get go..you musta missed it.

[beezlebum]

76. k/r- well done, TheWraith.

[uponit7771]

77. I don't want ANOTHER person leading this country that can't take responsibility for anything

[Myrina]

100. BINGO!

The similarities to the Bushco playbook are :scared: aren't they?

[ToughLuck]

79. The thread this is in reponse to, there is no question in my mind that its purpose

was to portray Clinton in a light that would somehow cast her as less responsible for her campaign.
The question I have, is when will this end? How much longer is this going to play out by the Clinton supporters?

[ToughLuck]

84. Being" verbally lynched" is from the same person who blamed

pain killers and tooth pain, when she said " a nappy-headed O..won the Dem primary last night."

This person is as transparent, as one can get.

[Cha]

128. Whoa! Wow, who knew...

miss RL was such a bigot?

[hisownpetard]

85. "...she's been hoisted, and by her own petard."

Yes, indeed-y.
The analogy is apt.

[dlfuller]

87. K&R

[The Doctor.]

89. K+R for the truth...

Man, I just can't wait much longer for the delusional Hillary people to either fade away or return to their senses.

[bigtree]

94. why do you get to continue the argument here from a LOCKED thread???

[McCamy Taylor]

95. This thread is Obama oppo. Only it is REALLY McCain oppo,

Because all this divide and conquer pretending to be for Obama's benefit is really designed to benefit the GOP in the GE,

Face it. All candidates are politicians. All of them confront/attack/exploit their opponent's weaknesses. The Obama team was careful to paint itself as the victim so that it would be cheered every time it launched a dirty attack, since it could claim that it was just repaying in kind/getting even/leveling the playing field/seeking restitution. That was what all those "stealing our victimhood" accusations were about.

Anyone who has ever been one of the wretched of the earth knows that no one wants to be the victim.

[Fedja]

107. Well said

And Obama isn't electable because the people... errr.. the white people would rather vote to someone with an obliteration plan. Someone seasoned in the art of war, having survived sniper encounters. Oh and finally... Obama is actually a Muslim, right? And we all know that no muslim picks the phone up at 3am. Especially on day one.

Honestly, face the music.

[Jim Sagle]

96. I see...she called HERSELF a big fucking whore.

SHE snuck into a Barry victory party and slipped "99 Problems but a Bitch Ain't One of Them" on the playlist.

Riiiiiiiiight.

[Myrina]

99. Amen.

:applause: The Clintons are finding out that it's rather painful when those chickens come home to roost.

[Razorblade01]

109. Yeah? And Maybe Obama..

Did alot of things to himself as well like the company he keeps..the Pastor he prayed with. No it's you cocky Obamaites that have made the Hillary supporters angry enough to vote McCain or not at all..and you keep right on alienating us! Keep it up!

[raystorm7]

110. Cry More Please!

[Catherine Vincent]

111. My usual response to nonsense like this....

BS!

[cui bono]

113. My usual response to nonsense like this....

:rofl:

[cui bono]

112. k & r

[Donkeykick]

114. You shouldn't talk that way about...

your next Vice-President. :hi:

[Cha]

130. hilary will be in her own private hell..we don't

want her for anything..not even dog catcher..think of the poor little doggies.

[roseBudd]

116. I will never forget the Clinton supporter who claimed Salem Witch trials & Irish Potato famine were

comparable horrors to slavery.

[NanceGreggs]

117. Error: You have already recommended this thread ...

Doesn't mean I can't come back for a :kick:

[DerekJ]

118. I'll raise you a kick ...

:kick:

[NanceGreggs]

119. Oh, yeah!?!

Take this:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[DerekJ]

122. Yah, I dare you to out-kick this:

[NanceGreggs]

124. SMART ASS!!!

(But by responding to you on this thread, I guess I just gave it another :kick:, didn't I?)

[Cha]

121. My pleasure to be the 101th Rec'd

Thank you, so much, TheWraith, for answering that bogus thread with your dead on analysis.

I'm going to post this compilation here, too, that I just posted in a thread where the OP wrote to me.. " Clearly Obama's lies have gotten through to you And you've bought into every one of them."

This was my answer:

b]"Why Hillary’s Lies are Important"

- March 24, 2008, 9:53PM
Hillary Clinton has been caught in a series of lies and misrepresentations during the primary campaign. To some of her supporters, these lies may seem trivial and insignificant and even politics-as-usual. However, please consider the serious impact of these lies by placing them in the context of the past seven years of the Bush Administration and the legacy of expanded executive power that he leaves behind. In particular, consider the dangerous message that the Clinton campaign sends by employing similar tactics to achieve her political goals.

1. The Florida and Michigan Primaries / The Delegate Count
Hillary agreed to honor the DNC’s decision to strip Florida and Michigan of its delegates after their primaries were moved up into January in express violation of the DNC rules. She did not change her position on the validity of these primaries until she found herself unexpectedly behind in the delegate count and desperately needed to claim the delegates that she had won in these unsanctioned contests. As her chances of winning the nomination became increasingly slim in recent weeks, we have been presented with threatening and desperate lines of reasoning for why these primary results should count as is. At the same time, Clinton and her surrogates continue to propose different metrics for determining who should win the nomination even though there is and has been a clearly defined process in place for several decades.

Please think about the implications of changing election rules after the fact. We have suffered through at least one stolen presidential election and the manipulation of untold numbers of Congressional and state elections through various vote tampering and voter intimidation schemes used by the Republicans and their allies. The American people (and especially Democratic voters) have lost faith in the integrity of the election process. The Clinton strategy to continually change the rules for determining the Democratic Party nominee sets a dangerous precedent that could lead to increasingly un-Democratic elections in the future if it is allowed to succeed. If anything, we need more transparency and methods of accountability in our elections in order to repair the damage done in recent years and to restore our confidence in the Government.

2. The Bosnia Fabrication / Exaggerated Experience Claims
Hillary fabricated a story about a dangerous, life-risking visit to Bosnia in order to gain stature as an experienced negotiator in international conflicts and war. While this type of embellishment can seem almost comical, it represents a willingness to distort reality in order to influence the public perception. This is the same type of distortion that the Bush administration used to justify the war in Iraq, although the magnitude of the lie is certainly on a different scale. The Bush administration falsified reports, cherry-picked intelligence, used unreliable sources, and employed fear-mongering tactics to convince the American public that our safety was at risk and as such, you were either with us or with the terrorists. The lies used by President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are impeachable offenses and should be condemned by all Americans. Sadly, the Clinton campaign seems to have shown a shocking willingness to employ the same tactics to create a more favorable reality and to rely on divide-and-conquer rhetoric to weaken opposition. Her attempts to frighten the American people by conjuring up 3 AM phone calls are bad enough, but her vote of confidence in John McCain over Barack Obama should be seen as treason against the Democratic Party.

3. NAFTA
Hillary lied about her position on NAFTA and used her lies in a calculated way to influence the Ohio primary. Recently released White House documents confirm that Hillary had been an active proponent of NAFTA prior to its passage, and she has continued to support it publicly in her speeches and memoir. However, while campaigning in Ohio, she claimed to have been privately against NAFTA during the Clinton presidency and believes that it should be rewritten to protect American jobs and workers. This type of maneuvering is reminiscent of the behind-closed-doors policy-making that the Bush administration has used during the past seven years. Specifically, Bush and Cheney have made policy decisions without providing transparency to Congress or the public, and President Bush has repeatedly ignored the rule of law by issuing signing statements and disregarding the parts of the laws that he doesn’t agree with. If we cannot trust Hillary to be truthful about her positions on critical legislative issues now, how can we trust that she will be truthful as president?

These are just three examples that illustrate the concerns we should have with a candidate who demonstrates a sense of entitlement to the nomination and is willing to lie, misrepresent, threaten, and divide in order to obtain the nomination. President Bush and the neoconservative movement have greatly harmed this country by the creation of an imperial-like presidency. This election is not just about whether a Democrat or Republican wins but if the checks and balances are restored to the three branches of government. The framers of the Constitution were in such fear of an imperial president that mechanisms for impeachment are prominently and explicitly included in the Constitution. If Hillary Clinton is willing to use lies and deceit to win the Democratic nomination, what assurances do we have that she will not continue to use them once she is president?
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/why-h ...

<snip>

"Her response to being caught lying to a military audience, when she invented a story about being under sniper fire in Bosnia, was to say it wasn't surprising she got some things wrong, seeing how she spoke millions of words every day. What a magnificent idea, that if you say lots of words some of them are bound to be fantastic lies. So if you listen carefully to horse-racing commentators they say things like "And it's Teddy's Boy still leading three furlongs out as they come up to the fourth last fence with Nip and Tuck two lengths behind by the way I fought a tiger once, punched it clean out and they're all safely over."


<lots more>
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article3 ...

"It's not that lying to pad the resume, avoid Indictment or to advance her political fortune is anything new for Hillary Clinton. She famously said she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary (debunked); she told New Yorkers she was a Yankee fan when she lived in Chicago (debunked); she told rural New Yorkers that she was a "duck hunter" (debunked); she claimed that her daughter Chelsea was jogging around the World Trade Center at the time of the 9/11 attack (debunked by Chelsea herself.) And, those subpoenaed Rose Law billing records just happened to show up one day on a hallway table in the most monitored home in America!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Beausoir]

129. Yes. She deserved to be called a whore, a cunt, bitch, witch. Yeah. Right.

This thread is directly lifted from Freepville.

[happycozy]

131. Show me where pro-Obama people...

have said such things at DU. That's what the original post said: pro-Obama people were unfairly attacking (lynching) Clinton. Show me one post where someone here at DU called HRC a whore, cunt, bitch, or witch.

Don't conflate anti-Clintons people with Obama supporters.

[CaptJasHook]

133. Happycozy

I am not going to do the research, but I have seen the posts where Hillary was called a bitch and a witch. There was also more than a few threads commenting on Rhandi Rhodes calling Hillary and Ferraro a whore.

I have yet to see one calling Hillary a cunt. That would have pissed me the hell off.

[CaptJasHook]

132. I have so had enough of Clinton supporter abstractions

The overwhelming majority of Obama supporters have consistently decried the words you have just typed being used against Hillary. I have personally alerted at least a dozen commentators for saying less inflamatory things about Hillary. Yet you bozos continually and consistently point to comments made by a small number of immature posters to distract from the real issue:

YOUR CANDIDATE IS A RIGHTEST, MANIPULATIVE, ROVIAN, UNTRUSTWORTHY CANDIDATE WHO HAS SCREWED HER CHANCES BY PLAYING A DIRTY CAMPAIGN.

If Hillary had stuck to the issues and not belittled Obama, African American voters, small states and caucus states, she would have gotten my support. If she had defended Obama from Right wing smears, she would have my support. If she had played by the rules in Michigan and Florida, she would have my support.

BUT SHE DIDN"T and I won't.

The rest is you Clinton supporters making false accusations and, frankly, being sore losers. You are as bad as those Obama supporters that you loathe.

[FogerRox]

134. I saw HRC in New Hampshire, then

I saw a U tube of Hillary in March and she had become a caricature of the Hillary I saw in Late Jan.

It may be.... as a Senator, in NY, she has diminished herself in the eyes of NY'ers.

Ya think... . .

[Jakes Progress]

135. Karl Rove as Darth Sidious

is loving this. Black robe over his head, wringing his blood drenched hands, and cackling. You can just feel the hate. Feel it flow through your body. Feel the dark pleasure of hating someone so much. He is laughing because he has wrought this. His minions scatter around DU egging on each side. He attacks Hillary, he attacks Obama, and then he sits back and watches the silly little Democrats do his bidding.


Trolls are here keeping this going. The OP is a poisoned mind, either a neocon plant or just a gullible pawn for their lies. The sour souls who will let a feeble rant like this make them mad enough to avoid voting Democratic are also poisoned minds. Many on DU have gone past this sad, but oft repeated practice that the Democrats do. We eat each other for the sport of the rich and powerful. All anyone has to do to get a hundred recs is say Hillary is bad. Little minds avoiding the dread battle we have ahead against a truly dark soul.


Principled Obama supporters need to call on their fellow Barack supporters to stop. Dedicated Clinton supporters need to let the trolls and the 16 year olds talk only to themselves. We need to stop attacking Obama; we need to stop attacking Clinton. We have been had, but there is a more important battle to come. These petty, childish, pointless rants and attacks are the province of trolls and the stupid. No rabid Obama supporter is going to convince any rabid Clinton supporter that they are wrong and vice versa. Stop playing. There is work to do.

[lilyannerose]

137. Any Question as to Whether She Has The Cajones

To try and force herself onto Obama's ticket as Veep.

[bvar22]

138. !