Bottom line for me: The way Hillary is bouncing back reflects the WORST of politics.

[Armstead]

Okay I admire her spunk and gutsiness and determination.

But those qualities are not automatically a recommendation. Bush has spunk, gutsiness and determination too.

I guess I would grudgingly give some respect to Clinton if her resurgence was actually for valid reasons. If she managed to win the nomination after honestly stating her case, I'd say "Okay she won fair and square."

But that isn't the case. Instead, the combined reasons she is "rising" are the wrong one (IMO of course). Reasons that are based on the most superficial and deceptive aspects of politics.

Clinton is relying on a bag of the dirtiest kind of tricks in her blitzkreig. For me, it started out when she accused John Edwards of "throwing mud right out of the GOP Playbook" when Edwards gave his progressive populist speil during the debates.

Since then, her list of outrages -- and the ridiculous reasons for her victories -- has accumulated" Winning the sympathy vote by crying in new Hampshire; attacking Obama's "elitism" for saying something she agrees with; her tepid answers regarding Obama's Muslimism followed by her jibes at his Christian pastor, capitalizing on the media cowards and their craven wallowing in the elitism and Wright nonsense...and now the "gas tax holiday."

She shows herself to be a "working class girl" by bringing her well-coiffed entourage into a working class bar, and with her sudden conversion to NRA Clinton and all the rest. I expect her to come out against Roe V Wade next.

Maybe Hillary is proving something that many of us would prefer to deny. Maybe right-wing politics of phony images is the only way to win. Maybe the US has fallen so far down the rabbit hole that people are willing to support a couple who have supported policies that drive them under the bus for the sake of corporate power and profits. ("Free trade" anyone? Deregulation and privatization?)

"President Clinton helped drive my job to China? That's okay, I'll support Hillary because she'll let me keep my guns and I saw her drinking those beers. She's a fighter. That Obama guy is too elite for me."

Sorry, just have to vent about this.

[Faygo Kid]

1. You're right. She's got spunk.

I HATE spunk!

[Armstead]

3. I love Lou

[reflection]

19. Agreed. Lou was cool.

And I miss Abe Vigoda as well. I *think* he's still alive, but the only reference I've seen to him lately was a Family Guy cameo a few years ago.:D

[Patsy Stone]

30. Keep up here:

http://www.abevigoda.com/

:)

[reflection]

31. Why not? (slapping forehead)

I should have known. :D

[Patsy Stone]

33. There may even be a daily watch

in The Lounge. :)

[Orsino]

2. She doesn't appear to be bouncing back.

She is holding her own, so to speak, but making no significant gains.

[NJmaverick]

4. That pretty much sums it up, she has been sliming Obama, instead of making a better case for herself

[Armstead]

6. That's been the bottom line for me

[Cant trust em]

7. a while back someone was talking about PA voters being loyal to Clinton.

I asked, matter-of-factly, "Why should anyone be loyal to Clinton?"

The answer was in one or two sentences, she's a fighter, she's progressive, etc. Then for three paragraphs, trashed Obama.

I thought that it was really unfortunate that when being given an open forum to talk about how great Clinton is, all she could do was rag on Obama.

[Armstead]

9. "She's a fighter." That seems to be her main talking point.

But that raises the question: "Fighting for what?"

[Cant trust em]

11. Dr Fate made a good point to me

Name a major legislative battle that she's won. A political brawl that wasn't a slam dunk, that was good for democrats and bad for republicans. Video game legislation is nice. Children's health insurance, that was good too. But those weren't political wrestling matches where she had to stand up, take a challenge and win. She's better at fighting democrats than she is at fighting republicans.

[Armstead]

20. Like when she called out the Democrats about the Gas Tax Holiday

I'm sure that went over well with her fellow Democrats in Congress.

[Cant trust em]

23. "I have a lifetime of experience. John McCain has a lifetime of experience."

"Barack Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

and cant trust em has a middle finger.

[NJmaverick]

12. Sadly when you look back on her career, it's usually fighting for herself

When it comes to causes, not so much

[Armstead]

14. But wait....She brought us healthcare reform in the 90's. Don't you remember that?

Since then she's been fighting for healthcare reform for........months now.

[Cant trust em]

15. She's been in the senate for 7 years. The one time I really needed her to step up...

she failed. She voted to authorize the use of military force in Iraq and she let me down. It was a big moment with the world watching and she, and 76 other senators, blew it.

[Ronnie]

10. Maybe I don't know what "sliming" means.

Would you please tell me?

[Armstead]

16. I'd say her attack on Obama as an elitist is a good example.

It's especially slimy because -- beyond totally distorting who Obama is -- it fuels the GOP memes that anything liberal or smart is "elitist." She is damaging the comeback of Democrats to satisfy her own selfish ambitions.

Meanwhile, she is the biggest elitist of all.

[NJmaverick]

17. I am very disturbed by the idea that smart = bad

We should want intelligent thoughtful leaders. Otherwise we end up with george bush or ronald reagan.

[Cant trust em]

22. She used it again at the weekend when she was defending her widely criticized gas tax holiday

In discussing economists' debunking of the idea she says "...we've seen a lot of elite opinion basically behind ideas that haven't helped the middle class"

BTW, that was in response to a criticism levelled by Paul Krugman.

[MonkeyFunk]

52. But I've seen Clinton's

base of non-college-educated, working class voters mocked and ridiculed here almost daily. Obama fans deride Clinton supporters as dumb, undereducated rubes.

I find that unarguably elitist, not to mention stupid - when democrats turn their back on working class folks, it's all over.

[Ronnie]

35. I asked about 'sliming'.

It's not a real word. Somebody (you?) created a verb out of a noun. According to my thesaurus, 'slime' means, "cream, glop, substance, gook, or gunk." I didn't ask you for an example, but since you did, using the word 'elitist', it means, "exclusive, selective, superior..."
I'm wondering, do you think it's bad form to criticize a political opponent?

[Armstead]

42. I didn;t make it up, though it's probably not a dictionary word

In answer to your question, no I don't think it's bad form to criticize a political opponent on legitimate grounds.

But I do think it's bad form to deliberately twist and distort the reality (i.e. lie), especially in a primary where the opponent may be the nominee of one's own party.

Elitist is the kind of thing Rush Limbaugh uses to characterize all Democrats and all Liberals, and it is used in a negative context.

Do you really think Hillary was calling Obama superior? No she was using a buzzword that is used to denigrate her fellow Democrats. Maybe she should have cut to the chase and said "Just like all liberals, Obama is really a socialist, maybe even a communist." It's not too different.

She knew damn well what Obama meant, and she damn well agrees with it. Most Democrats do. The fact that too many people vote against their own economic interests because of wedge social issues has been a central political issue for 35 years. I am sure she has said the same thing, and much worse, over the years. So why is she choosing to distort it?

That is why I consider what Hillary did to be slimy -- oozy, gunky, nasty.

[Beacool]

27. He shouldn't have ever run this year.

Not with his wafer thin record. If he had waited, many of us would have considered him. As it is, I don't think he's ready to be president.

[NJmaverick]

28. That's a pile of bull crap, If she had stuck to experience and record, it wouldn't have been slime

instead she became a perfect example of a right wing slime machine. Characters attacks, lies, mole hill politics, distrations, swift boating etc.

[Beacool]

34. And poor Obama was an innocent victim?

You must really be a fan to believe that.......

[NJmaverick]

43. I don't have to believe anything I saw and heard what happened

Hillary is guilty and the blame can not be honestly redirected.

[Armstead]

39. It depends on how you define wafer thin....Hillary's experience is fairly slender too

yes Hillary's been on the national scene. But in what capacity? And what real accomplishments does she have to her credit. She screwed the pooch on healthcare,she doesn't have a very long or distinguished Senate record (competant but nothing special), many her "35 years of public service" was spent as a corporate lawyer and board member in Arkansas.

[Triana]

5. I couldn't have said this better myself. K&R n/t

[DesertFlower]

8. i agree. nt

[depakid]

13. Look on the bright side

At the very least, it's a dry run for what the eventual nominee will face in the fall!

[Armstead]

18. I expect that kind of crap from Republicans. But it's disgusting when Democrats try to do it.

Ethics aside, it's not a successful tact for a democrat to take. The GOP is much better at right-wing politics.

Whatever points Hillary gains in the primaries, she will instantly lose if she were to become the nominee. The GOP will throw her own record right back at her. And those voters she is courting will turn on her too.

[depakid]

21. Hard to disagree with that

I don't see her chances of winning in November to be any better than Obama's (partly for the reasons you cite) -and the effects down ticket would be worse, at least on the West Coast.

[Armstead]

24. I want to see Democrats fight hard on the real issues

If the Democrats ever got our collective shit together and backed a candidate who was both a bare knuckles fighter and an unapologetic liberal/progressive, I believe we'd wipe the floor with the GOP.

[depakid]

25. That's been my take, too

since Gary Hart in 1984... :banghead:

That, along with nationalizing the elections- and calling out Republicans at every level -tarring and feathering them in no uncertain terms for what they are- what they "stand for" and the results of their behavior as they relate to Americans of all stripes and persuasions.

[Beacool]

26. That's your opinion............

To me it reflects that experience, knowhow, courage and plain stamina count for something. I will take a scrappy fighter any day over a vapid and vacuous empty suit.

[Indenturedebtor]

29. Yes if she would just rip his throat out with her barehands

And kill some puppies on TV that would be enough for me to come over too... I see what you mean :sarcasm:

[Beacool]

32. The ripping of the throat sounds cool, ala Buffy.

Though,I can do without the killing of cute puppies.

:D

[Armstead]

36. How about cute kittens?

[thesuperintendent]

37. Much of the fault is Wright's and Obama's

Wright for his incendiary silly oratory and Obama for pretending to reject him now after 20 years.

[Armstead]

40. Don;t you have people in your life that would be embarassing if you ran for office?

Most do.

[aquart]

49. Wow! There's an excuse! LOL!

Everybody does it.

When is the dog going to eat your homework?

[Avalux]

38. But she isn't bouncing back. She's hanging on by her fingernails.

She hasn't had a lead in this election - EVER. (Except before it started, when she KNEW she'd win). She's been slipping and hanging and throwing the sink and the MSM have propped her up and made it a race. What has she fought for over the course of her career, really? She gave up on healthcare in the 90s.

If Hillary wins illegitimately, her presidency would be Miserable Failure II. Just like the Republicans. I can't tell the difference much anymore.

[aquart]

50. "Illegitimately?"

So that's the spin you're going for? That Obama is ENTITLED and anything else is criminally unfair?

That whatever happens at the convention will not be honest men and woman making a decision for the good of their families and their nation, but a Clinton plot? You really plan to run with that?

This makes you different from a loyal Bushie in what way?

[usrbs]

41. There are other ways to interpret this

The Wright scandal, or more accurately, Obama's many responses to Wright, made it obvious that he's just another politician. Besides, his speeches wear thin after a time. The positions of both are close, and if he's not special then the comparison goes back to experience, where he's disadvantaged.

And her sheer tenacity and "spunk" is special. A little frightening, I have to admit, but you've got to admire it. It's also very electable - the Independents and Republicans love toughness.

By the way, she did fight for the N.Y. first responders and clashed with the Pentagon on access to information. What fights does Obama have? A question, not a snark.

[Armstead]

44. My opposition to Hillary is based on a whole bunch of things that...

contrast with her current effort to recreate her image as a populist fighter.

If any of rang true in terms of her actual experience and prior stances on issues, I could perhaps stomach it. But it is just too much opportunistic reinvention.

Sure she's a fighter. But to what larger purpose? I would certainly hope that a Senator would fight for their first responders. And, if she is such a leader, why has she not been able to lead Democrats to a more effective opposition to the Bush tendencies towards fascism?

But the question is also whether she is an effective fighter. Fighting is not just about yelling and getting worked up. It is about pushing for something and providing the leadership that actually get things done.

She blew it on healthcare because of her antagonism and inability to fuse a political consensus on an issue that DID has broad popular support in the early 90's. Then she and her husband totally walked away from the issue for the rest of his administration, and allowed the healthcare situation to get worse and worse.

And, although it was her husband who was president, a lot of really bad policies got slipped through that undermined the economy in fundamental ways. Their approach to free trade was a disaster that basically gave away the store to Big Business, and undermined the position of American workers. ....The Clinton also presided over deregulation and privatization that further consolidated Money and Power into fewer and fewer hands.

In light of her background and performance, I cannot buy her current performance as a populist nor as an effective fighter.

As for Obama, I think his more level headed approach, and his consistency, would be much more conducive to forming the coalitions that will be necessary to overcome the morass that national politics has become. One does not have to be loud to be tough.

But I will agree with you that I wish Obama would spruce up his stump speech. Although I believe in it, it is getting a bit old. But at the same time, I think that is also a sign of his consistency that he is staying with his core message, rather than tossing kitchen sinks and empty gestures like the gas tax.

[usrbs]

45. Gore was actually the strongest Democratic fighter these past years

which is why I was really hoping for his candidacy. Both BO and HRC did squat. And Obama even graced us with a lecture on how unreasonable we were being after Roberts got confirmed and the progressive nets were bristling with rage at our non-leaders.

My point, which you are not really refuting, is that they're not different enough for your statement about how support for Hillary is something horrible or immoral. That's such a common theme here, and it's extremely insulting and divisive,

[Armstead]

54. I'm not saying peopel who support Hillary are horrible or immoral

But I do think the way she has been running her campaign, and the reasons when her fortunes rise, embody everything that is wrong with modern politics.

Maybe I'm naive, but...somehow, it really bugs me when a $100 million candidate who is more attuned to Wall St. and CEOs can transform herself into "a working class girl" with a photo op guzzling whiskey and by calling another moderate Democrat an "elitist." And thus, by extension, she also is aiding the false and damaging claim which the GOP has been pounding Democrats with for years.

or when she is sudenly declared a "populist" because she is tossing a GOP style "summer gas-tax cut" that she knows will never happen, and calling out her fellow Democrats in Congress as "elitists" because they won't go along with her scam.

or the same person who bungled a goal that had popular support, healthcare reform, in the early 90's, then walked away from the issue, now being portrayed as the "experienced" candidate who has been successfully fighting for healthcare reform.

Or when she rails against the damaging effects of China, when it was her own husband and campaign partner who gave China the keys to the kingdom in the first place.

[karynnj]

56. I quite agree with his point - HRC's campaign is using Republican techniques up to and including

swiftboating in some cases. You are speaking of there positions on issues - and you are right they are pretty close as were Edwards'. He is not speaking of where they are politically or how they deal with the left - but how they run their campaigns. There HRC has descended to a level of nastiness that I never expected from a Democrat. To make it completely Rove-like, they even accuse Obama of doing what they are doing.

As mentioned by others, the Democrats can not do RW tactics as well as the right. They have an infastructure that we don't. In a battle of dueling swiftboat attacks, they will win. In 2004, the swiftboat attacks would have failed if - at least when covering the convention - the media had said this goes too far speaking of the purple heart bandaids. Then said it was wrong to mock the sacrifices of thos injured, including John Kerry and pointed out that the Navy records backed him and the SBVT offered no proof against the official record. It would then have been great if they pointed out the connections to Bush. That could have led to a sober analysis of the characters of two men.

That of course didn't happen, the bandaids were treated as though they were 2004's version of silly hats covered as a novellty at every convention - good old American goofiness, rather than something despicable. Now, think 2008. Imagine that HRC attacks McCain in the mode she has attacked Obama. The radio stations will go nuts, followed by the cable stations and then the MSM. In the light of day - which attention brings to it - swiftboating looks unbelievable ugly. The truth may be that Bush got away with it twice - Kerry and McCain - and used other techniques against Gore - but it requires a complicit media. HRC may not have that and many of us do not want to be with that type of attack.

What bothers me the most about it is that 2006 really was a victory over swiftboating. the three vets targeted all won as people rejected it. The danger, if HRC wins, is that McCain may be smart enough to see that he does not need to do - just to stay calm and call her out sadly when she does. It would be ironic if after Kerry was the victim, the Republicans are rewarded when the country turns against swiftboating. Obama is right we need to end that type of politics.

[Armstead]

58. I think you hit on an excellent point

"The danger, if HRC wins, is that McCain may be smart enough to see that he does not need to do - just to stay calm and call her out sadly when she does. It would be ironic if after Kerry was the victim, the Republicans are rewarded when the country turns against swiftboating. Obama is right we need to end that type of politics."


Whatever one thinks of him, McCain is good at projecting a higher level of politics than many of his GOP brtethern. He also projects (in public) a level headedness that I think the country wants after eight years of bi-polar Bush.

If Hillary tries to use the same tactics against McCain that she is using against Obama, she'll come off badly.

IMO Obams's "cool" would be the much better package against McCain.

[SoCalDem]

46. She's NOT "bouncing back"..she's just winning states that she

was favored in..all along.. The calendar did her in..and her own hubris from trying to manipulate FL & MI and to end it all by Feb 5.. She never really even gave the states AFTER Feb 5 a single thought..

[aquart]

48. IOW, Obama, with ALL THAT MONEY, still can't close the deal?

Why, goodness me.

[SoCalDem]

51. Most election cycles, the 2nd place candidate does not STALK the leader

:rofl:

and some of his "losses" ...like the ones from TX on, have been Limbaugh-ed, so her "squeaker" wins are hard to calibrate, since the newly-minted Hillie lovers voted for her , and changed back to McCain voters..

Obama's republican/independent crossovers have remained within a range, but hers skyrocketed after Mccain became the candidate for the republicans....

No one can convince me that people who have hated that woman for over a decade, all of a sudden had an epiphany (or a stroke) and started loving her ..

Hillary has had ONE opponent----Obama

He has had to run against:

Bill
Hill
Media
Limbaugh

he has had the more difficult path..

Any "normal" opponent would have hung up their spurs after losing 11-in-a-row..

[aquart]

47. You mean so many of us refuse to drink KoolAid

And worship at televangelist Obama's shrine?

You go be a rhinoceros. I'll remain a concerned citizen.

[McCamy Taylor]

53. Huh? Are we watching the same campaign?

When she cried the press spotlighted it because they thought it was her Muskie moment. They were hoping it was going to kill her campaign. She didn't coordinate any coverage. She would have begged them to keep the cameras off if she thought they would listen. Everyone was shocked that a presidential candidate could cry and still win.

Drudge doctored a 60 Minutes interview and some people still fall for that dirty trick by the right wing that is straight out of Nixon's CREEP strategy. You do not know too much about politics, do you?

How do you know that Hillary "agrees" that poor people "cling to guns and religion"? That is a stupid statement. I don't know anyone who agrees with it. Poor Democrats are among the least likely Demographic to own guns---because they are DEMs and because poor people can not afford them, It is the middle class and wealthy that own guns in this country. And people do not cling to their religion in the U.S. they seek spiritual comfort from it and learn tolerance from it--esp. Democrats.

The gas tax holiday is no different than Obama's political pandering to young people by telling them they can opt out of health insurance and then buy in later if they get sick.

Obama is bowling, duck hunting and doing everything he can to court the working class. Don't call it a dirty trick that Bill and Hillary actually used to cook their own meals when they lived in the WH and act like regular people. They got a lot of grief from the RW over it. It is who they are.

Hillary will never come out against Roe v. Wade. That is just plain silly.

Obama is now getting more donations from those with ties to corporations and lobbyists that Clinton, so careful about who you call the corporate candidate.

People like you who complain that no one is discussing the issues and who then go on to bash one of two perfectly good Democrats on character crap--stuff that could just as easily apply to the other perfectly good candidate---are not friends of the Democratic Party. You are the source of division and rancor. You are mini-KOs who believe that the only way to win is by tearing down. That is a false notion. The only way to win is by building up.

If your candidate is so good, let's hear about how good he is, rather than about how scary it will be if his opponent is elected. The lesser of two evils is no inspiration at all.

[Armstead]

55. A few points

First of all, I watched the 60 Minutes interview as aired. Her equivocations about the Muslum stuff struck me at the time as jarring. She knew damn well he is a Chjristian, and there was no need for "as far as I know" kind of thing.

Maybe the tears thing was planned by her, maybe not. That's irrelevant. What I was talking about was the way it suddenly became seen as a reason to vote for her. "My God she acted like an actual human for a moment. Quick, stop the presses!"

Most Democrats agree with the premise that the GOP have been using wedge issues like Guns God and Gays to divert voters attention from more fundamental economic issues. Many, if not all, would also agree that when government fails to offer real solutions to economic issues, those social wedge issues are what drive politics. That's been the open dilemma that democrats and liberals have been wrestling with for years.....Obama expressed it poorly in a private meeting. What was galling is that Hillary twisted and distorted it to help amplify the phony perception that Obama is an elitist who scorns the common people -- when she knew better. She was basically doing the GOP's sales job against all Democrats....It is especially ironic since she has not has a normal life for decaades.

As I said in my OP, if Hillary were to win the nomination on her own merits and without resorting to such tricks and helping the GOP's mischaracterization of Democrats it would be a clean victory. But capitalizing and perpetuating false images, soundbyte politics, distractions and pandering, any gains she makes seem to me to be for the wrong reasons.

[TexasObserver]

57. Hillary is a huckster, and hucksters always find plenty of suckers.

If you want a politician to lie to you, she'll lie to you.

If you want a politician to promise you something you know she can't deliver, she'll promise you.

She has gone to the lowest possible themes to try to gain some favor. She appeals to the ignorant, and she applauds their ignorance. The irony is that these are the people Hillary has never done a thing for in all her years. They're the people who hold the door for her as she passes through, the ones who bring her meal, who fill her gas tank, who drive her places. They are people she never even noticed before this year. Now, suddenly, they're her peeps.

People who want to be lied to will find someone who will lie to them.

[TragedyandHope]

59. Yes, many of us feel disappointed and betrayed

by the Clintons' conduct during this race. In some ways, it really does seem like they have a touch of Stockholm Syndrome after all their years of enduring vicious RW attacks.

Who knows which way the race would have gone if they had chosen to go in a different direction?