About those RoboCalls - in case you didn't get the memo.

[msmcghee]

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

Voter suppression in North Carolina?

Did a pro-Hillary Clinton nonprofit group make voter suppression robo-calls to keep Barack Obama's voters from going to the polls in North Carolina on Tuesday? That's the charge from part of the liberal blogosphere this week, but it's a charge based on no solid evidence of wrongdoing. While the calls were misleading and probably against the law, a close look at the facts leads to the conclusion that the group responsible had no malicious intent, but is just another well-intentioned but bungling nonprofit.

The North Carolina Attorney General's Office has asked the group, Women's Voices. Women's Vote, to cease and desist from making the calls, and WVWV agreed to do so. The group's leader, Page Gardner, who has donated to Clinton in the past, has apologized. Board members -- including one Obama supporter who's also an elected delegate for the senator -- have said the calls were a mistake, and that the group wasn't trying to suppress African-American voter turnout.

<snip>

Now, what was all that about forks and how this was going to end it for HRC?

[RazBerryBeret]

1. as I've read elsewhere...

this group has done this prior in other states and also been warned.
the pattern doesn't look good.

[tbyg52]

2. "Well-intentioned"?

What could be well-intentioned about leading voters to believe that non-existent forms would be arriving in the mail, and that the people could not vote until they had returned them? (At least that's my current understanding of what was said.)

[The Magistrate]

9. If You Read The Entire Article, Ma'am

You would know that that is a reference to registration forms for the general election the group intends distributing by a mass-mailing to persons who received the calls.

The thing was poorly handled and ill-timed, but that is as far as it goes.

[tbyg52]

16. Well, there's not much I can read on my dialup besides DU

Salon hung up my computer for a while and is now sitting there blank - I assume it depends heavily on graphics with no alt tags.

If that's all it was, they could have picked a much better time than just before the primary. And somebody with a little smarts and legal advice should have been making *that* decision, IMHO.

Edited to add that I read the excerpt below about just before primaries being a good time, which makes sense. So I amend my remark to say that someone with a little more smarts and legal advice should have been crafting the message.

[The Magistrate]

21. They Botched Things, Ma'am, No Question

They aim for a fairly narrow window, based on some solid research in registration patterns. Their aim is to increase turn-out in the general election, and there is a spike in registration normally in the wake of a primary election. They try to capitalize on this tendency, and enhance it with calls and mailings.

The illegality involved relates only to the grouo not identifying itself in the calls by name, and not offering in the call a means to block further calls. These things are illegal, but routine in non-profit solicitations, and almost never prosecuted.

[msmcghee]

28. That makes sense.

A scheme by the Clinton campaign to disenfranchise Obama voters does not.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. The problem was that it was poorly handled and ill-timed repeatedly, in many states.

They were warned in many states.

And they continued to handle it poorly and ill timedly.

It suggests that they just didn't care, at best, or that it may be cover for the agenda for a certain subset of the organization, at worst.

Until and without a thorough investigation into who made decisions and how those decisions were reached, it is impossible to determine whether is was just innocent mis-management or whether it was intentional mismanagement.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

33. Women's Voices is made up of some of the most seasoned and sophisticated political operatives in DC

Women's Voices is made up of some of the most seasoned and sophisticated political operatives in Washington.

Does "confusion" account for their disruption of the primaries in North Carolina and Virginia? I asked Johnson why the group launched its confusing voter registration campaign in Virginia when they did -- two weeks before the big primary, but two weeks too late for anyone to actually register. She stumbled through several explanations before landing on, "We wanted to make sure they were registered for the general in November." Really? The first week in February, probably the worst time to be dropping a misleading robo-call and mailing campaign in Virginia, was the only week available?

Also: Is it really a "mistake" or "confusion" when you get the same complaints in 10 or more states across the country over the course of at least five months? After a while, the "confusion" defense runs out of steam.

But in this case, it's never been a strong defense. Women's Voices is made up of some of the most seasoned and sophisticated political operatives in Washington. Their staff bios show decades of experience at the highest levels, all the way up to presidential campaigns for Bill Clinton.

Does such a well-connected, deeply-funded and All-Star cast of high-level operatives really make "mistakes" like carrying out illegal robo-calls and forgetting the presidential primary calendar?

At some point, that explanation is no longer plausible, and Women's Voices Women Vote owes voters a real explanation.

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/05/womens-voices-responds-sorry-for.asp

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

35. illegal robo-calls in N C and deceptive election tactics in 10 other states by WVWV

Fallout from Facing South's investigation of illegal and deceptive election activity
Facing South's investigation into illegal robo-calls in North Carolina and deceptive election tactics in 10 other states by Women's Voices Women Vote has had quite an impact.

Here are some of the major developments since we put up our first post at 9:32 am Tuesday morning looking into the issue:

* Yesterday, N.C. Attorney General Roy Cooper publicly denounced the group's tactics, declaring their anonymous robo-calls to be illegal and ordering that they be stopped.

* Also yesterday, voting rights advocates Democracy North Carolina successfully persuaded Women's Voices to delay until after the primaries a deceptive mailing to 276,000 North Carolina households that would have further confused voters.

* Democratic candidate Sen. Barack Obama addressed the illegal robo-calls in a press conference yesterday, calling them "extremely disturbing."

* Women's Voices Women Vote board member John Podesta, President Bill Clinton's former chief of staff, has publicly stated that Women's Voices "will conduct a full and prompt accounting of the circumstances of the voter registration program."

* The investigation has been widely covered in the media and brought greater attention to deceptive election practices. So far, the controversy has been picked up by NPR, ABC News, CNN, The Economist, Harper's, Talking Points Memo, Time, TPM Muckraker, The Week and Wired

.... more here
http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/05/fallout-from-facing-souths.asp

[The Magistrate]

41. This Is The Sum Of The Illegality, Sir

"Also, WVWV appears to have violated North Carolina law because it did not provide contact information in the message, or a way for recipients to decline future calls. WVWV is subject to civil penalties for the infraction."

Note the violation is subject only to civil penalties, not criminal sanctions. It is as illegal as going five miles over the limit on the highway....

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Yes, which is the same illegality in many states for intentionally vote caging.

So the point isn't exactly what laws may have been broken, the point is how did this happen, and why did it happen? We still do not have the answers to this.

Senator Obama introduced legislation to make it a federal crime to intentionally suppress the vote. This needs to be passed and signed into law.

[The Magistrate]

54. And An Excellent Law That Is, Too, Sir

But it would not apply in this matter, and again, the sole illegality alleged is a civil violation or marketing call regulations.

Why it happened is well known: this group attempts to increase registrations for general elections, and tries to piggy-back off the interest in primary news to get people registered early for November. The timings are delicate and often poorly calculated.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

36. Why did Women's Voices use disruptive voter registration approach in NC?

Why did Women's Voices use disruptive voter registration approach in NC?

No one seems to be defending Women's Voices' use of anonymous, illegal robo-calls in North Carolina, or their decision to do those calls in North Carolina two and a half months after they had told a newspaper in Virginia that they vowed to stop the practice nation-wide.

But some have defended their strategy, which in North Carolina had a two-part approach: (1) the now-infamous, illegal "Lamont Williams" robo-calls, followed by (2) mailing of a "voter registration packet" which many voter engagement groups have said is confusing and has the potential to discourage many from voting, because it makes registered voters believe they aren't. (Thanks to our investigation and the work of public interest advocates like Democracy North Carolina, at least some of these were stopped from going into the mail stream.)

This strategy -- which Women's Voices conceded could cause problems, in a letter they faxed to the N.C. State Board of Elections on Monday -- is all the more curious given that every organization Facing South spoke to that has been involved in voter registration in North Carolina has been using a much easier alternative: One-Stop Early Voting.

This voting reform, passed last year, allows North Carolina voters to register and vote all at once at over 200 One Stop voting centers across the state. Representatives from Democracy North Carolina, the NAACP, and the N.C Democratic Party all tell us they have been pushing almost exclusively for One-Stop Voting, because of its ability to capitalize on interest in elections created by the primaries, but also avoids the potential of discouraging and disenfranchising voters inherent in Women's Voices' approach.

For example, as Damon Circosta of the N.C. Center for Voter Education said to Facing South:

“Ever since the register-by-mail deadline passed, nearly every voter engagement group in the state has been pushing one-stop early voting, where you can register and vote at the same time without mailing anything in. To be pushing mail-in registration at this time is either a blunder of comedic proportions or a deliberate attempt to confuse.”

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/05/why-did-womens-voices-use-most.asp

[blm]

75. True - EVERY CONCERNED voter registration group has highlighted ONE STOP registration

and early voting.

This whole confusing mail-in stuff has been a TACTIC - pur and simple.

It is disgraceful that any DUer would even try and find a way to excuse this as a mere 'mistake' repeated in state after state.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

38. Center for Investigative Reporting follows Women's Voices' political connections

Center for Investigative Reporting follows Women's Voices' political connections

Will Evans with the Center for Investigative Reporting has compiled a helpful chart documenting in detail the connections between the principals of Women's Voices Women Vote -- the nonprofit we discovered behind illegal election robo-calls in North Carolina -- and the various presidential campaigns.

As we have already noted, many of the group's top leaders have worked for Bill and Hillary Clinton in some capacity. Founder and President Page Gardner, for example, served as the deputy political director for the 1992 Bill Clinton campaign and worked on his presidential transition team. Executive Director Joe Goode was a pollster for Bill Clinton, and former Women's Voices leadership team member and strategic planner Maggie Williams is now Hillary Clinton's campaign manager.

The Center breaks new ground by showing just how heavily and disproportionately Women's Voices principals have invested in the Hillary Clinton campaign. According to the chart, they have donated a total of $34,800 to Hillary Clinton or HillPAC since 2000. At the same time, they have donated only $3,600 to the Obama campaign and $2,300 to John Edwards.


... more here
http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/05/center-for-investigative-reporting.asp

[mod mom]

43. NC Law:

§ 163‑275. Certain acts declared felonies.
Any person who shall, in connection with any primary, general or special election held in this State, do any of the acts or things declared in this section to be unlawful, shall be guilty of a Class I felony. It shall be unlawful:
(1) For any person fraudulently to cause his name to be placed upon the registration books of more than one election precinct or fraudulently to cause or procure his name or that of any other person to be placed upon the registration books in any precinct when such registration in that precinct does not qualify such person to vote legally therein, or to impersonate falsely another registered voter for the purpose of voting in the stead of such other voter;
(2) For any person to give or promise or request or accept at any time, before or after any such primary or election, any money, property or other thing of value whatsoever in return for the vote of any elector;
(3) For any person who is an election officer, a member of an election board or other officer charged with any duty with respect to any primary or election, knowingly to make any false or fraudulent entry on any election book or any false or fraudulent returns, or knowingly to make or cause to be made any false statement on any ballot, or to do any fraudulent act or knowingly and fraudulently omit to do any act or make any report legally required of such person;
(4) For any person knowingly to swear falsely with respect to any matter pertaining to any primary or election;



(5) For any person convicted of a crime which excludes him from the right of suffrage, to vote at any primary or election without having been restored to the right of citizenship in due course and by the method provided by law;
(6) For any person to take corruptly the oath prescribed for voters;
(7) For any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election;
(8) For any chief judge or any clerk or copyist to make any entry or copy with intent to commit a fraud;
(9) For any election official or other officer or person to make, certify, deliver or transmit any false returns of any primary or election, or to make any erasure, alteration, or conceal or destroy any election ballot, book, record, return or process with intent to commit a fraud;
(10) For any person to assault any chief judge, judge of election or other election officer while in the discharge of his duty in the registration of voters or in conducting any primary or election;
(11) For any person, by threats, menaces or in any other manner, to intimidate or attempt to intimidate any chief judge, judge of election or other election officer in the discharge of his duties in the registration of voters or in conducting any primary or election;
(12) For any chief judge, judge of election, member of a board of elections, assistant, marker, or other election official, directly or indirectly, to seek, receive or accept money or the promise of money, the promise of office, or other reward or compensation from a candidate in any primary or election or from any source other than such compensation as may be provided by law for his services;
(13) For any person falsely to make or present any certificate or other paper to qualify any person fraudulently as a voter, or to attempt thereby to secure to any person the privilege of voting;
(14) For any officer to register voters and any other individual to knowingly and willfully receive, complete, or sign an application to register from any voter contrary to the provisions of G.S. 163‑82.4; or
(15) Reserved for future codification purposes.
(16) For any person falsely to make the certificate provided by G.S. 163‑229(b)(2) or G.S. 163‑250(a).
(17) For any person, directly or indirectly, to misrepresent the law to the public through mass mailing or any other means of communication where the intent and the effect is to intimidate or discourage potential voters from exercising their lawful right to vote.
(18) For any person, knowing that a person is not a citizen of the United States, to instruct or coerce that person to register to vote or to vote. (1901, c. 89, s. 13; Rev., s. 3401; 1913, c. 164, s. 2; C.S., s. 4186; 1931, c. 348, s. 10; 1943, c. 543; 1965, c. 899; 1967, c. 775, s. 1; 1979, c. 539, s. 4; 1979, 2nd Sess., c. 1316, ss. 27, 28; 1981, cc. 63, 179; 1985, c. 562, s. 5; 1987, c. 565, s. 14; c. 583, s. 7; 1989, c. 770, s. 38; 1991, c. 727, s. 1; 1993, c. 553, s. 68; 1993 (Reg. Sess., 1994), c. 762, s. 58(d)‑(g); 1999‑424, s. 7(i); 2007‑391, s. 17(a).)

http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_163/gs_163-275.html

The calls are also probably illegal. Farmer and others have told Facing South the calls use a blocked phone number and provided no contact information -- a violation of North Carolina rules regulating "robo-calls" (N.C. General Statute 163-104(b)(1)c). N.C. Attorney General Roy Cooper further stated in a recent memo that the identifying information must be clear enough to allow the recipient to "complain or seek redress" -- something not included in the calls.

It is also a Class I felony in North Carolina "to misrepresent the law to the public through mass mailing or any other means of communication where the intent and the effect is to intimidate or discourage potential voters from exercising their lawful right to vote."

The calls have been denounced by the N.C. State Board of Elections, as well as by voter advocacy groups including Democracy North Carolina, which called them "another in a long line of deceptive practices used in North Carolina and elsewhere that particularly target African-American voters."

Yesterday, I placed a call to the Virginia State Police, which had investigated similar suspicious robo-calls before that Virginia's primaries last February. Their investigation concluded that the source of the calls was Women's Voices Women Vote.


-snip

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/facing-south-exclusive-dc-nonprofit.asp

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

40. Local Democratic leader who received Women's Voices robo-call suspects voter suppression

Local Democratic leader who received Women's Voices robo-call suspects voter suppression

...I look at it this way. As a poster on another site noted when they posted the script for one of WVWV's radio/tv ads, they clearly know how to construct an informative and effective ad piece. Now let's look at what they did for this robo-call: an organization whose stated mission is registering single women to vote, an organization that notes, on its web site, the sponsorship of several noted female celebrities, this organization did not send out an informative, inspiring ("Hey ladies, it's time for women to stand up and be counted!") call using the voice of Christine Lahti or Julia Louis-Dreyfuss (a couple of their celebrity sponsors). Oh no, they sent out a dull, obscure, and mis-informative call using the voice of.......some guy named Lamont Williams.

Look, I am the Chairman of the Durham County Democratic Party, not a seasoned political veteran working out of Washington. I've done robo calls, both the targeting and the scripts, and I would never in a million years use a call like the one I received to reach the audience WVWV claim they were trying to reach, and their organization is one helluva lot more sophisticated than ours.

I'm sorry, but claims of incompetence just do not cover this at all. In my opinion, this was malfeasance, pure and simple.

...more at the link
http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/05/local-democratic-leader-who-received.asp

[John Q. Citizen]

45. I certainly think it stinks. My post above was to point out that one can't claim definatively

one way or the other until a thorough investigation is done.

However, I honestly and certainly suspect that there was skulduggery involved. My reply was to the poster who attempted to portray the situation as nothing more than an honest mistake. I don't personally believe it that. And a thorough investigation is warranted given the known facts.

[EFerrari]

48. I sent a raft of links and questions to the House Judiciary Committee

yesterday. And, I know other folks who have called. It shouldn't be left up to one state because these people, be they morans or criminals, have done damage in more than one state.

[mod mom]

42. They were warned in February by the Virginia Sate Police:

Update: Group Promised to Change Calls in February
By Paul Kiel - May 1, 2008, 4:10PM
Since we last posted this morning, there are number of other things to update you on those calls by Women's Voices Women Vote.

First off, North Carolina officials were not the first to specifically object to the group's failure to identify themselves and instead use "Lamont Williams" on the calls. As Facing South points out, back in February, after Virginia police investigated the calls and mailings as a possible identity theft scam, the group's spokeswoman told The Virginian-Pilot that "not including information about the source of the voter registration effort was 'absolutely an accidental omission.'" She also said that the group would be changing the calls so that the group was identified as the source.

Obviously, that didn't happen. When I asked the group about that, a spokesperson told me that the failure to change the script was a "mistake" and added "we're doing our best to figure out how the old script got used."

-snip

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/update_womens_voices_calls.php

Virginia voter registration effort proves legit after fears of scam
By Steve Stone
The Virginian-Pilot
© February 9, 2008

-snip

Sarah Johnson, communications director for the organization, said Friday that not including information about the source of the voter registration effort was "absolutely an accidental omission."

She said the group was changing its nationwide phone alerts to make clear who is coordinating the effort.

Johnson said that of all the states where the effort is under way, Virginia was the only one where there had been reports of problems.

-snip

http://hamptonroads.com/node/453328

IS IT JUST GROSS INCOMPETENCE? REPEATED OVER AND OVER?

I'm sorry but this is a well funded organization full of well educated people. Do mistakes happen? Of course they do, but repeatedly? You have to ask who benefitted and follow the money-imho.

[blm]

50. It was done in EVERY PRIMARY STATE with large black voting areas. These are SEASONED POLITICOS

repeating the same 'mistake' over and over again - this has been a TACTIC.

[The Magistrate]

56. Black Citizens, Ma'am, Are Substantially Under-Registered Relative To Whites

Any number of groups with basically progressive aims target Blacks specifically in an attempt to increase registration among them.

In a primary season which has seen dramatic increases in Democratic turn-out all across the board, claims that there has been any real attempt at vote suppression are a very hard sell, and the only customers will be people looking to experience the heady delights of outrage, however pointless, or lacking in factual basis, these might be.

[blm]

62. So these 'voting registration experts' kept repeating the same 'mistake' over and over again

and were accidently suppressing the black votes in primary states?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Don't worry - I don't believe YOU really believe what you post in defense of Clintons at this point, either.

The Claudine Longet defense worked, too. Oops...the gun 'suddenly went off' didn't it?

[The Magistrate]

68. Any Evidence Of A Down-Turn In Black Voting In Democratic Primaries This Year, Ma;am?

Please present it if you have any.

In the Democratic primaries this year, is the Black vote at any signifigant downward variance from the proportion of Black voters in previous primaries, or in the Democratic turn-out in recent general elections?

[blm]

71. Just because it didn't work this time thanks to aware folks doesn't mean it DIDN'T HAPPEN.

.

[The Magistrate]

78. Actually, Ma'am, It Does

It means there was no suppression of the Black vote, or for that matter of any other vote, in the Democratic primaries.

It means that crying up claims of vote suppression reflects predisposition among those so engaged, rather than conclusions drawn from evidence.

[blm]

79. So you say... whatever sounds better for Clintons....as usual.

.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. "...as far as it goes?"

May 3, 2008
Group with Clinton Ties Behind Dubious Robocalls
...
The Institute turned up other complaints about the group as well, in Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Ohio, Virginia and Wisconsin. A "Lamont Williams" robocall similar to North Carolina's ran in Ohio last fall. In Virginia, robocalls days before the February primary caused voters to flood the board of elections with phone calls, in turn triggering an investigation by the state police.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90114863

A little sweeping- don't you think?

[Lakerstan]

3. You forgot to bold this part:

"While the calls were misleading and probably against the law"

[msmcghee]

6. Read the whole story.

Groups like this operate on volunteer labor for the most part and small budgets. What they can raise go into phone charges and such. They probably have no full time lawyer on staff to sort out the various laws in different states. The article says that groups like these frequently violate one rule or another.

[benddem]

11. they did this in at least 5 states

this can't be blamed on some "low level volunteer"...haven't we heard that one a few times.

[DJ13]

4. ...... had no malicious intent .....

.....and yet, they have been accused of these same illegal calls in ELEVEN STATES.

Why do some Democrats excuse the Republican tactics a certain (supposedly) Democratic candidate is using against a fellow Democrat?

[The Magistrate]

5. An Excellent Article, Ma'am

It ought to, though it probably will not, but the thing to bed.

[msmcghee]

12. Sigh . . so true.

Let's watch the the responses drop in to verify your prediction.

[DAGDA56]

7. "Misleading and probably against the law..."

...but with "no malicious intent". If I were a defense attorney, I would make a note of that.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

13. The NC Attorney General said WVWV broke the law, not it might be against the law

even the moronic mainstream media got that part right.

[DAGDA56]

23. I'm just lifting quotes from the OP

[Medusa]

8. Once is an accident. Twice is a mistake. Eleven times?

either sheer incompetence or they are making fradulent statements in addition to their pathetic attempts at voter supression.

[The Magistrate]

14. A Little More From The Article, Ma'am

In fact, the calls were part of a campaign aimed at 24 states in total, and they were intended to boost voter registration in general. The calls had nothing to do with the primary, and the registration deadline the group says it really cared about -- the one for the general election -- won't pass until this fall. Admittedly, the call itself did not specify this, and it should have. But even so, this still isn't an after-the-fact assertion by WVWV. The group had made its purpose clear even before the controversy began. In a letter Gardner sent April 24 to the executive director of the North Carolina State Board of Elections, she explained the purpose of the mailings intended to follow the robo-calls and wrote, "Unfortunately, North Carolina residents will receive this mail after the deadline for registering to vote to participate in the upcoming primary election. Please be aware that the mailing is not intended to encourage registration specifically for the primary, but simply to encourage voter registration in general."

On OpenLeft, blogger Matt Stoller provided some detail about why WVWV had timed the calls the way it did. (For purposes of full disclosure, it's worth mentioning that one of Stoller's partners in founding OpenLeft was Mike Lux, who is a board member at WVWV and an Obama supporter.) Stoller published an e-mail he received from Becky Bond, who works for CREDO Mobile, a brand of Working Assets, which Bond says has funded WVWV "since it started." In her e-mail, Bond wrote:

there is always a spike in voter registration around primaries AFTER the registration deadline has passed. this is the best time to register voters. research confirms this. around primaries people are reminded that they need to register in time for the general. WVWV has done a lot of research in this area. they know when people are most likely to register. unfortunately, what makes sense in registering the largest aggregate number of voters for the general election at the lowest cost is having a confusing effect in the N.C. primary which is hotly contested and very charged

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. its ok, it only hurt those black voters who wouldn't have voted for Clinton anyway

so just break the law, then apologize and since you are a former Clinton Chief of Staff, its ok.

[The Magistrate]

17. And Yet, Sir, Sen. Obama Owes The Husband Of The Group's Founder Money

Then there's Ron Rosenblith, the husband of WVWV founder Gardner. His company, Integral Resources, has done telemarketing work for WVWV and for the Democratic Party. It has also worked for the Obama campaign, which recently submitted to the Federal Election Commission an amended October quarterly report showing that it owed the company more than $140,000.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

18. so you think he knew before our Atty Gen who was making these calls?

can you think of anything else stupid to say?

[The Magistrate]

25. Hard To Say What He Knew, Sir, But It Makes The 'Clinton Front' Line Look Rather Off, To Me

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

22. Obama doesn't owe Women's Voices, Women's Vote anything -more spin

that dog doesn't hunt.

[The Magistrate]

27. No, Sir, Just The Husband Of Its Founder Is Owed $140,000 By Sen. Obama's Campaign

[scheming daemons]

15. Yeah... it was "accidental" that someone calling themselves "Lamont Williams" called black folks....

...while someone called "Julie" called white folks.


Sure.... you believe that.

[msmcghee]

19. That's funny. Talk about your gullibility.

A member of this board is an elected Obama delegate. You'd think he might have objected to this devious scheme to "disenfranchise black voters for Obama". Or perhaps, going by some of the accusations I've been hearing on DU lately, this was possibly done by Obama to garner sympathy and demonize the "vicious Clintonistas".

Sometimes, a screw up is just a screw up - and not a devious attempt to destroy St. Obama.

[scheming daemons]

30. Screw up, eh? 11 times.... after being warned repeatedly..... Talk about YOUR gullibility

Yes.... One lone member of their board is an Obama supporter.... it's doubtful that person even knew this was occuring until it was in the news.


But you keep believing that robo-calls are ok.


The NC Attorney General says they BROKE THE LAW... not that they "screwed up".

[The Magistrate]

39. This Is The Sum Of The Illegality, Sir

"Also, WVWV appears to have violated North Carolina law because it did not provide contact information in the message, or a way for recipients to decline future calls. WVWV is subject to civil penalties for the infraction."

[EFerrari]

47. The investigation doesn't seem to be over yet, though.

It's too soon to call, one way or the other. And, isn't this the second investigation? There was one in VA.

[The Magistrate]

53. The Virginia People, Ma'am, Seem To Have Got So Off You Could Not Even Call them Wrong

They seem to have imaging it was an identity theft ring, and that is nonesense.

The illegality is as described, and is not even a misdemeanor.

Doubtless after all the publicity, it will be pressed to the point of a civil fine. That is proper, but is nothing resembling the heated claims of people who leapt before they looked in the matter.

[EFerrari]

55. I've read everything I can find, Sir, and this operation is indistinguishable

in its practice, if they are simply claiming to be blunderers, from a concerted vote suppression effort.

There are too many things that I would have to believe in order to chalk it up to mere moranity and in particular, the idea that because there is a spike in registrations just before an election, it is somehow more valuable to register voters than to allow an election to go forward without unnecessary confusion. That smells to heaven. That's like saying the time to tune up fire engines is when they're on their way to a fire because there are more of them on the road.

(Okay, that's pretty clumsy, lol, but you get idea.)

[The Magistrate]

58. In Pure Marketing Terms, Ma'am

There are excellent arguments for making a pitch when interest in the general field the pitch relates to is higher than normal. People are more likely to act on something that is already on their minds because of current news coverage; a part of your selling is already done for you. It may well be that the window they are trying to hit is too fleeting to be struck squarely and well, but there is nothing on the record that warrants an inference of foul intent, let alone stating as fact the intent is foul.

To pursue your own metaphor, a week when reports of a four alarm fire are filling the evening news is an excellent time for an alderman to propose an increase in the fire-department's budget, and for the fire-fighters' union to cry up an increase in wages and benefits for its members.

[EFerrari]

61. That's the claim, true. But if I keep telling you

that what I want to do is register new voters and I keep screwing up elections and I continue to do that over and over, at some point I know you will ask yourself what my aim really is.

[The Magistrate]

65. No Elections Have Been 'Screwed Up', Ma'am, If You Are Talking About The Democratic Primaries Of '08

Turnout is vastly up, in all demographics. Anyone seriously trying to suppress the vote is making a damned poor job of it, to put it mildly.

However, it will be interesting to see down the road if registration for the general election is increased among the targets of this group's efforts.

[EFerrari]

80. Explain this to me. Your Honor has a much rosier view of human nature than I do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5788898&mesg_id=5788898

[The Magistrate]

81. Hard To Say, Ma'am

Sample ballots are an old practice, and even ones with 'SAMPLE" across them in big letters have been taken for the real item by some.

This could be anything from well-intentioned amateurs to hardened professionals, and in either case, there is no evidence whatever to indicate with certainty which camp they support. On the face of it, of course, it is instruction to vote for Sen. Obama. Past that we get into second-guessing, and second-guessing second guesses, and other exercises in psychism at a distance.

It is not so much, Ma'am, that my view of human nature is rosier than yours, but rather that my requirements by way of evidence before engaging in violent condemnation may be more strict. It behooves a man of violent nature to be certain its employment is required, and not merely desired....

[Raejeanowl]

20. Where Do You Get Your Info?

My state (at least) doesn't collect race information on voter registration forms, so where would the callers have gotten it?

[tbyg52]

29. Now *there* is a darn fine question.

(Meaning the one I was thinking of myself.... ;) )

[scheming daemons]

31. Certain zip codes have higher percentages of blacks than others.... the "Lamont Williams"

calls were made to those zip codes.


The "Julie" calls were made to zip codes in predominantly white areas.

[msmcghee]

37. It would seem sensible to use voices that the recipients could . .

. . best identify with, don't you think?

When you have a limited amount to spend on communications you use whatever will increase your percentage of success. Using white or black voices/names to call those zip codes seems like a very inexpensive way to increase success rate.

Another method is to time the program for when it will coincide with the recipients' interest in political contests. That seems to be what happened here and is probably what caused them to run afoul of various states rules regarding cutoff dates near primaries. I can see their motivation to optimize their use of funds.

[EFerrari]

60. If they wanted to optimize their use of funds, maybe giving

their president's husband's company 16% of their budget with a noncompetitive contract might not have been the best strategy.

[msmcghee]

66. You could be right. OTOH . .

. . the amount they paid could have been less than they would have paid to another company on the open market. Sometimes spouses (and friends) do favors for each other. perhaps they couldn't afford the services but really needed them and so the husband provided the company a super good deal. I don't know and you don't either.

I guess you could say that I am pretty disgusted with the lack of fairness and objectivity on this board. I always hoped that we liberals had an advantage over the RW when it came to such things. This primary contest has really shown me what I suspected all along - when emotions are high, reason goes out the window to be replaced by bias - and it flies out LW windows just as fast as RW windows.

[EFerrari]

72. Fwiw, for me this isn't about Clinton, it's about vote suppression.

I came to DU to learn about election fraud and hang in the Election Reform forum.

The thing is, wherever this is a dirty trick, there is someone's campaign behind it. But, that isn't the most important thing in my eyes. The voters targeted in this effort are the same ones abused to "elect" Bush twice. It's on the backs of these very same voters that our federal elections are stolen.

That you are giving that particular contract the benefit of a doubt is reasonable. I don't give them that benefit but intend to do some more digging. It's not so much that I care to find dirt on Clinton but more that we need to know what's going on with this organization that has managed to screw up before a vote in multiple states and that is still claiming it was just a booboo.

[msmcghee]

76. I understand your concern. Please keep us . .

. . informed of what you discover. I'll be really pissed if it turns out these folks are up to no good. Until I see some evidence of that however, I will not convict them because some Obama supporters here hate Clinton and turn every event into a dirty trick conspiracy by Clinton to destroy their candidate . .

. . bullshit like the "Mickey Kantor is anti-black racist and here's the video that proves it" crap that infected this board (and several others) yesterday where many DU embers jumped all over it with ugly accusations against HRC and her supporters. At some point someone has to call bullshit on this constant barrage of crap throwing.

[EFerrari]

77. I agree with that. It's ridiculous already.

:)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

32. Same firm does voter contact work for robo-call group, Clinton campaign

they weren't interested in targeting women voters, nor were they interested
in providing helpful or accurate information.

Same firm does voter contact work for robo-call group, Clinton campaign

" He notes that the firm in charge of voter outreach for WVWV is MSHC Partners, whose president is Hal Malchow. Sourcewatch.org reports that Malchow was a member of WVWV's leadership team."
http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2008/04/same-firm-does-voter-contact-work-for.asp

[Raejeanowl]

24. Where Do You Get Your Info?

My state (at least) doesn't collect race information on voter registration forms, so where would the callers have gotten it?

[jonestonesusa]

34. I appreciate the article, but I'm still skeptical...

Auto-calls with misleading information go to a large number of African American voters - 182,000 voters - on the eve of a primary that is critical to Obama.

The nonprofit company says it was a mistake, it has progressive interests in mind, and says it meant no harm, even though it did not provide basic information on the auto-call to identify itself or distinguish itself from a governmental agency or for-profit group.

The same thing has happened in eleven states. And while on one hand the article writes this off as incompetent nonprofit, its board includes some of the heavy hitters in the Democratic Party organization.

You tell me, HRC and Obama supporters alike - what are we supposed to think? Whether this was an intentional job of voter suppression or not - don't you agree with me that there's plenty of cause either way for outrage, given such flaming incompetence repeated in state after state? I'm sick of the mainstream Democratic party either ignoring, or at worst, abetting vote suppression. If the party intends to show its support for its core constituencies, it needs to do better than this.

And do not neglect to read the other threads that argue that there's more to this than the innocent mistake, lower level incompetence explanation would suggest.

[EFerrari]

46. The argument here is that they weren't aiming for

this primary. That's not much of an argument, is it?

And if you were running a vote suppression effort, how would you front yourself? A voter reg project would be about the best choice. Vote caging operations often front themselves as "legit" voter fraud prevention projects.

[blm]

49. YOU may believe the spin, but it's pure BULLSHIT to anyone paying attention. The SAME 'mistake'

that suppresses votes in TARGETED black neighborhoods made OVER AND OVER again in the next primary state is a TACTIC not a 'mistake' and this is the same type of 'mistake' that had it come repeatedly from Rove would have earned your skepticism and anger.

[ecdab]

51. spot on - you do it once, maybe it's a mistake. You keep doing it

and it's no longer a mistake. Plus a "voters rights" group should - one would think - know a thing or two about voting and voters rights.

I have seen nothing that even remotely indicates to me that this was anything excepted a targeted effort to suppress the black vote.

[EFerrari]

52. This article reminds me of the time CBS didn't report vote

caging in FL because they called Bush's office and he said it didn't happen. lol

[mod mom]

57. Yes. You have to wonder if it's incompetence why no firings? or resignations?

Have you noticed that the WVWV website now says it also includes minorities? How convenient to add this when called out for using "Lamont Williams" and calling those other than there previously stated mission of women voters.

but...since Page (CEO) and Sarah (spokesperson) say no issue here, move on...we should not delve into this anymore :eyes:

[EFerrari]

59. Can someone figure out when that information was added?

I wonder if the posters to this thread also poopoo'd the fraud in Ohio.

"Lamont Williams", my granny.

[blm]

63. LOLOLOL....pathetic, isn't it? They believe PEOPLE ARE STUPID. They INSULT their own supporters

with this level of bullshit and they burden them with spreading something I highly doubt many of them even believe. But they ARE stuck with this lying group of Bush protecting, fascist enabling Clinton thugs at this point.

[EFerrari]

64. Imho, they count on most people wanting to believe that other people

are decent. So, when they shovel this cr@P, they expect us to try to make it make sense so that everyone comes out smelling like an arrangement of roses.

That's not going to happen this time. These people were too sloppy, too well connected publicly to claim innocence and the internets is all over it.

Speaking of which, us election reform types should email Josh in support because if they can browbeat him enough, maybe he will back off. Just a thought.

/oops

[msmcghee]

70. If there are dirty tricks going on . .

. of the type you claim I will be one of the first to condemn the people involved and call for stiff penalties. Nothing makes me more angry than people fucking around with our election process . . except perhaps people accusing others of doing so when there is little or no evidence for it. Both are examples of trying to gain advantage over their opponent unfairly, if not dishonestly.

So far the only evidence here is that you and some others "think" this was an effort to disenfranchise Obama voters - despite the NC AG saying, after an investigation, that it was not. If you want to come off as concerned about illegally disenfranchised voters more than just Obama winning NC - then I suggest you get some actual evidence to support your conclusions.

[EFerrari]

73. This operation, as I said upthread, is indistinguishable from

a vote suppression effort.

If *YOU* care to take the word of the perp, that's your choice.

I'm much less an Obama supporter than an election reform activist. Sorry.

[barack the house]

69. That sounds plausible but it happened in other states too. One Obama backer doesn't make their say

they majority and it was in african american areas of all places, as on the previous occasions.

[EFerrari]

74. It's incumbent on people messing with elections to have a cover. n/t