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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:30 PM
Original message
Does it occur to anyone else that Obama is really too naive
I mean, does he really think that the powers that be are going to let him become President? Especially with his rhetoric the way it is, telling the truth, talking about corporations, talking about real energy policy.

He seems to think that there is still a democracy in this country, and that by appealing to the most voters, he can win the office.

I for one don't think he and Michelle really understand what they are up against.

I'm sure the GOP is

1) Tapping his phone
2) Throwing honey traps his way (hired bimbos to try to tempt Barack into a tryst)
3) Thinking about ways to bribe him, or the young members of his campaign staff

and once he clinches the election, there will be a million other ways to take him down, including all of the ways the CIA has practiced on other leaders in other countries for the last 40 years, including even physical harm.

It's almost too much to hope for that our system is not so beyond help that this intelligent man could end up being the President - and that the military industrial complex, which controls every part of our media except the internet (and they are working on that), will actually allow this to happen.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No, indeed, I think that among the three of them, America
needs Obama the most.

I don't want the Obama's to be destroyed by the system, though.
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TexanDem Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. I don't think he's naive -- but I DO think HRC was prechosen and it scares me!
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Your photo shows your immaturity. Alerted. nt
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. self deleted
Edited on Thu May-01-08 04:57 PM by Jersey Devil
why bother?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Holy shit! This is a piss poor attempt to suppress the vote. Go back to the huddle with ye! eom
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. ??
Clinton is done, she hasn't been going to win for months now. Obama clearly has the nomination and will beat McCain like a drum in the general.

I just worry about him and his family - our country is a bit too corrupt for them/us.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I think he can handle things.
Just because he has not been playing dirty, does not mean he can't take care of himself. Sure it is going to be hard to try and bring this country together, and to try and undo the damage that Bush has caused both here and in the world, but somebody has to give it a shot, and Obama is the best chance we have right now. Hillary can't get elected, and McCain would be another Bush.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Does this mean that the rest of us should all give up all hope?
Settling for an SOB who is acceptable to the "powers that be" is not an improvement. Maybe Obama is tapped into the one method of getting control of the country back into the hands of the citizens.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. No. If he were that naive, he'd have been taken out by now
by the Clinton machine.

Hello?! McFly?!
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. No.
"Does it occur to anyone else that Obama is really too naive?"

Absolutely not.

Extremely idealistic, yes. Naive, no.

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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. YES WE (HE) CAN !
we must always be ready to fight the good fight, and fix our country.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. Somewhere, somehow, decency and integrity are going to have
to beat the odds and prevail. I hope it's this time with Obama.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. That's why the urgency of now is fierce.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. To answer your post, if he manages to get the delegates and the Rupugs....
Edited on Thu May-01-08 04:44 PM by LakeSamish706
are not able to steal the election through vote tampering then no one can stop him from being President that I can see.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Actually, he and his campaign are brilliant. They're still standing with
money in the bank and numbers on the scoreboard. They're just waiting for the fourth quarter to put the loser back on the bench where she belongs. Naive??? Please. Don't confuse naiveness with stupidity. He has neither of those qualities. We've been so long without a gentleman and scholar as a leader in this country, we sometimes forget what it's like.....
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think a mixed-race man - and his wife - in their 40s
Know enough about how things work in America not to be too naive about what can happen.

As for HRC, Obama may have underestimated how dirty she was willing to play against a fellow Dem to try to get the nomination, but he's finding out in a big way. I think he's prepared to go against McCain.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. He rose through *Chicago* politics.
That ain't nothin.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. ha ha
that's a great point, and very encouraging. Thanks
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Oh, the pleasure is all mine, believe me!
:hug:
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Begin hand wringing now...
"I Could Have Told You, Vincent, the World Was Never Meant for One as beautiful as youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu."

First mixed race man to run for president - I think he knew this might be a bit of a challenge.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yes, he's totally naive. nt
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. um, no. did it occur to you? sorry.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. You're right! He's just too wonderful for this world!
:silly:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. Better to be destroyed trying than to not be destroyed at all!
Wait a sec...

A stitch in time saves nine! Nailed it!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. :)
As long as he's not a torjan horse.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
47. LOL
I actually miss that poster, even though I can't remember who it was anymore.


Good to see you around Professor. :hi:

I don't think Obama is as naive as many/some of his supporters. I think he'll be a good nominee, but I do still worry about us losing for any number of nefarious reasons.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. He knows, but he'd really like to accomplish something more than have power for himself
which is one of the reasons why so many of us love him.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. We don't deserve him.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Yes, yes and yes".
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. He's standing UP... you gonna stand up WITH him? or what? n/t
:-)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. That really is the question, isn't it? n/t
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. He maybe ambitious..
but not naive.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama_mon_nusep17,0,2613902,print.story

www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama_mon_nusep17,0,4610954.story
chicagotribune.com
CAMPAIGN 2008
Obama's policy team loaded with all-stars
Criticized by some as lean on experience, the Democrat has drawn a huge circle of advisers with expertise honed in the circles of power
By Mike Dorning
Washington Bureau
September 17, 2007

Barack Obama's presidential bid may have a well-cultivated insurgent feel, as the candidate both benefits and suffers politically from a relatively thin record of experience in Washington.

But the swelling team of policy advisers who have joined his campaign shows a politician grounded in his party's intellectual mainstream and well-connected within the capital's Democratic establishment.

As Obama rapidly transitioned from a senator with less than three years in office to a presidential candidate who has delivered detailed policy speeches, he has assembled a personal think tank that easily outsizes any of the established Washington policy institutes that provide intellectual fodder for the political war of ideas.

On foreign policy alone, some 200 experts are providing the Obama campaign with assistance of some sort, arranged into 20 subgroups. On the domestic front, more than 500 policy experts are contributing ideas, campaign aides said. Veterans of previous election campaigns say the scale of the policy operation resembles the full-blown effort candidates typically undertake for a general election campaign rather than the more stripped-down versions common for the primary season.

Senior advisers include heavy hitters from the administration of President Bill Clinton, husband of Obama's primary rival.

Anthony Lake, Clinton's original national security adviser, is helping coordinate foreign policy. So is Susan Rice, a Clinton assistant secretary of state and protege of former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Eric Holder, a former deputy attorney general, is among those providing expertise on legal policy.

"These are not outsiders trying to tear down the temple," said Philip Zelikow, a former senior Bush administration foreign policy official and executive director of the Sept. 11 commission.

"If you guess that he's surrounded himself with people who are highly ideological, left-wing or dovish, you would guess wrong," added Zelikow, now a history professor at the University of Virginia. "These folks cannot easily be typecast by ideology."


Free-market economic team

Key economic advisers include a few Washington veterans such as Michael Froman, a Citigroup executive and former chief of staff to then-Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the Cabinet member most closely identified with the Clinton administration's pro-free trade, business-friendly policies.

There are also several scholars from prestigious universities whose approaches are anchored in dominant market-oriented economic thought. One is Austan Goolsbee, a 38-year-old star University of Chicago Business School professor and New York Times columnist with centrist Democratic views who has argued for eliminating tax returns for many Americans with simple finances.

Alan Blinder, former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve, described Obama's top economic advisers as "mainstream with a dash of creativity."

"These are people who think new thoughts -- within the mainstream, new without a capital N," said Blinder, now a professor at Princeton University.


Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune


Foreign Policy In Focus
www.fpif.org

Voters on the progressive wing of the Democratic Party are rightly disappointed by the similarity of the foreign policy positions of the two remaining Democratic Party presidential candidates, Senator Hillary Clinton and Senator Barack Obama. However, there are still some real discernable differences to be taken into account. Indeed, given the power the United States has in the world, even minimal differences in policies can have a major difference in the lives of millions of people.
--------------------------------------------------
Senator Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisers, who on average tend to be younger than those of the former first lady, include mainstream strategic analysts who have worked with previous Democratic administrations, such as former national security advisors Zbigniew Brzezinski and Anthony Lake, former assistant secretary of state Susan Rice, and former navy secretary Richard Danzig. They have also included some of the more enlightened and creative members of the Democratic Party establishment, such as Joseph Cirincione and Lawrence Korb of the Center for American Progress, and former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke. His team also includes the noted human rights scholar and international law advocate Samantha Power - author of a recent New Yorker article on U.S. manipulation of the UN in post-invasion Iraq - and other liberal academics. Some of his advisors, however, have particularly poor records on human rights and international law, such as retired General Merrill McPeak, a backer of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor, and Dennis Ross, a supporter of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.
Contrasting Issues

While some of Obama’s key advisors, like Larry Korb, have expressed concern at the enormous waste from excess military spending, Clinton’s advisors have been strong supporters of increased resources for the military.

While Obama advisors Susan Rice and Samantha Power have stressed the importance of U.S. multilateral engagement, Albright allies herself with the jingoism of the Bush administration, taking the attitude that “If we have to use force, it is because we are America! We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall, and we see further into the future.”

While Susan Rice has emphasized how globalization has led to uneven development that has contributed to destabilization and extremism and has stressed the importance of bottom-up anti-poverty programs, Berger and Albright have been outspoken supporters of globalization on the current top-down neo-liberal lines.

Obama advisors like Joseph Cirincione have emphasized a policy toward Iraq based on containment and engagement and have downplayed the supposed threat from Iran. Clinton advisor Holbrooke, meanwhile, insists that "the Iranians are an enormous threat to the United States,” the country is “the most pressing problem nation,” and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is like Hitler.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4940
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. Obama is not Jesus! I heard an Obama campaign person
on the radio this morning that compared Obama with Jesus. She said something to the effect that when she hears Obama speak she thinks that must be what it was like to hear Jesus speak. Then she starts talking about how over the top Rev. Wright's comments are. Ten days ago before Obama threw Rev. Wright under the bus these same people would argue endlessly that he said nothing wrong and if you think he did you are a racist. Now the guy is an ego maniac and it's all about him, yada yada yada.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Whew! Thank Christ..
I heard this lady on the radio...she was from the Clinton Campaign...and she said Hillary was the Virgin Mary! Then she started talking about how Hillary was dodging bullets, and under sniper fire, and was going to obliterate Iran.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. That's just how rediculous some of you Obama supporters
sound. No one in the Clinton campaign thinks Clinton is Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Well there are some people that actually think God speaks through GWB and we see where that has got us. Obama is a great speaker, the far left establishment saw that and started grooming him for President soon as he became Senator. He is a politician and nothing more and he has proved he will say or do whatever it takes to get elected.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. "The Far Left"
funny.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. No, they just call her the "Goddess of Peace"
:puke:
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think he appears naive at times, and I used to believe he was extremely naive
With his talk of reaching out and discussing problems with adversaries. And it certainly didn't help my misgivings that Tom Daschle and some of his people are very close to Obama.

Over time, I've come to realize that he isn't anybody's fool, though he hasn't yet perfected the political savvy that, say, Bubba had in his prime. He's extremely intelligent, and if he hasn't yet seen it all, he's seen most of it more than once. I think Barack Obama believes very strongly that cynicism and rancor can only be overcome by optimism and good faith. I've come to believe this in my personal life, so I think I'm catching a vague glimpse of the way he sees it, without being really sure that I'm right.

I tend to be a deeply anti-religious person, but knowing a couple of things about faith, I think his insistence on a new approach to governance is partially inspired by his faith in Jesus. Although it would be tacky to compare the two of them, there is something they both are familiar with: ideological opposition coupled with hate. Jesus overcame those obstacles through sheer willpower: the Kingdom of God wasn't something that was coming in some distant future - it was Here and Now because He was making it happen as people watched. Obama has grasped the core lesson of that level of belief: if you want to change this world, you have to believe in yourself absolutely and make it happen. Again, I'm not trying to turn Obama into the Messiah, nor to compare their lives; both have faced differing degrees of adversity, and Obama has drawn inspiration from Jesus. (Actually, he's drawn inspiration from "Christ," but I won't go into that now.)

If he really has that extreme and powerful level of faith, he will be a force to be reckoned with in the White House. (Bush has a twisted perversion of this kind of faith: the notion that he can satisfy any ego craving without punishment. It's weak and destructive and pales before the power of someone who truly believes in something.) I have no real idea what he intends to do with power once he gets it, what ends he will shackle his belief to, but there is something powerful about someone who is not only making it happen, but doing so with grace.

My biggest remaining problem with Obama is the attitude behind the McClurkin incident. Reaching out to hatred is not smart, to my way of thinking, and his tepid attitude toward gay rights is off-putting. I sometimes wonder if he's waiting for a more propitious time to take those issues on, I don't know. Abraham Lincoln was pushed for years to publicly support emancipation and hedged and hummed and hawed for a rather long time, even though his speeches made it clear where his sympathies lay. After several years in office, he had the Emancipation Declaration prepared and signed it when he thought the time was right at last, meaning that he felt he had the political support to pull it off. He was an extremely shrewd man who loved to pretend that he was just a humble old country lawyer.

Ah, well. I'm talking too long. No one will read all that.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. I am a non-religious person..
after growing up in a Catholic family, I denounced, renounced and rejected all things religious. When I got to be in my 30's I had some of those life-learning-experiences, that left me searching for something to believe in. Mainly myself. I studied Buddhism, Meditation, A Course in Miracles...and I ended up with some kind of faith, and defined for myself what it is "I" believe. I think it is a shame what 'religion' has done to sully some basic tenets of life, that come in handy when the storms of life hit.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. I did and I have to say
it was a very interesting post:) So nice to see something so well thought out here in GD-P! I think you're right. I don't see Barack Obama as so much as naive, but determined to find a way to make this work. Once in a lifetime, if you're lucky, someone comes along who can truly get things done.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
34. If that were true
What would you suggest? Just forfeiting our votes and getting in line to vote for the mili-garch's "candidate"? Hell no. Even if you are doomed to lose, you still make 'em work for it. Right?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. If they can't beat him, they will try to absorb him,
like they did the Clintons.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. Obviously he doesn't even a tenth of your wisdom, insight, and shrewdness
Too bad you decided not to run this year, as you would have been the obvious choice. But instead we just have naive old Barack. Oh well.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
38. I hear ya loud and clear but I think
Obama and Michelle have a calling and the fucking ptb be damned.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. what's naive is to think that the powers that be would have let O get where he is if he was half the
revolutionary his followers think he is. clue: if Obama was actually a threat to the establishment he would have gone the way of Dennis Kucinich a long time ago.
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madwivoter Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
46. Nope
I think Barack is intelligent and thinks his way through everything that is thrown at him. I think the thing he just learned is that he needs to react a bit faster than he would prefer to. He can do that, and I believe he will do that in the future. If he becomes the nominee, I think we'll see a different side of Barack Obama against the rethugs.

He's been very restrained in a good way (he's definitely taken a lot of hits and paid dearly for his restraint) during this primary season, but it's because he's trying not to smear a fellow Dem.

It'll be a different story against McCain and the GOP. The good thing is, a lot of people (civilians) have become much wiser over the last 8 years and the rethugs are becoming much less relevant when it comes to shaping public opinion.

I don't doubt for a second that the GOP is working 24/7 to create some sort of scandal, but that's just it...they have to create a scandal. I think the Obama's are too smart to fall for that.

Think about it, the GOP wants to run against Hillary Clinton sooooooo bad, don't you think they would have pulled out their smoking gun already (if they really had one)?
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