A message to DUers who, like me, are white.

[JeffR]

Why don't we all just shut up about things we don't really understand?

How many white people here have the first scintilla of an idea of what it's really like to be an African-American? I'm guessing the answer, if we're being honest, is zero.

Why don't we just leave all the inartful innuendo and bullshit spin to the corporate media?

They won't shut up about it. But we can.

[cbayer]

1. I was just thinking about this this afternoon.

I have seen a lot of men posting here that do not see, recognize or understand sexism. I have seen a lot of white people posting here who do not see, recognize or understand racism.

I absolutely agree with you. I am also white and I am sure that I miss racism all the time. I am straight and I am sure that I miss homophobia all the time. I am born and raised in the US and I am sure that I miss xenophobia all the time.

Even though I consider myself free of bigotry, my assumption is most likely false. I am sure that I have no idea what it is to be on the receiving end of any bigotry other than sexism. I find it truly offensive when a male tells me that something I am experiencing is sexist is not.

Great OP.

[hiaasenrocks]

2. At least you have the self-awareness to recognize

when it is time to wring your hands and become very earnest about something.

[cbayer]

4. Can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or not.

I hope I have that self-awareness, but perhaps I came off as somewhat arrogant.

[donheld]

48. Cbayer, you are one of the better ones

You come off as being quite sincere in most everything you post. I wish more posters were like you.

[cbayer]

94. Thanks so much donheld!

I like to wake up in the morning without regrets. It has kind of been my motto for awhile now and it helps me stay pretty honest.

[KAZ]

5. Luv ya Cbayer, but I think you missed the point.

[cbayer]

7. Quite possibly.

I need to get off of this site for awhile.

But before I do, what was the point?

[KAZ]

24. I feel that way every day! :)

I'm a 47 year old, white, married male. Growing up in the '60/70's, and having been practically raised by my 2 older sisters (Mom and Dad both worked the late shifts), I've been been blessed with a somewhat different point of view than my peers. I can still remember my Dad telling my youngest sister, back in the early '70's, that "there was no need for her to go to college". I still can remember him raising the roof when she brought a young (black) male acquaintance home. I still remember growing up in a little town call Oak Lawn, IL (SW suburbs of Chicago), whose residents tossed bricks through the picture windows of the 1st AA family that dared try to move to our lilly white hamlet in the early 70's.

Hey, I can escape anytime. I'm white, I'm a male, and I don't have to actually live it. But God damn it, it hurts so bad, that sometimes I think it's worse. Nah, it's not. Just self pity on my part, and a ache for what I think we all should be.

[cbayer]

28. Ha!! I grew up in Hyde Park during the same period of time.

Would be fascinating to share perspectives on Chicago at that time! My dad was a radical LW minister who was devoted to the causes of the day. Both of my parents were jailed during the 1968 DNC.


I also ache for all of us to be freed of our bigotry and our being hurt by bigotry. I was just saying that those that have been on the receiving end have a lot more cred in calling it than those that have not.

[KAZ]

33. Hey, maybe one day we'll hook up!

My Dad was retired after 30 years at GM (Electro-Motive), Mom,, IBEW at Western Electric. I have 4 (much)older siblings, the 2 sisters I mentioned, and 2 older brothers ( I was the 7 years later mistake). Bill, the second oldest, shed blood at the '68 convention. The oldest brother worked a deferment though out the whole thing, and then got pregnant (his wife anyways, right after graduation). Oldest is still a Puke, BTW.

[KAZ]

39. Cbayer, your last sentence is spot on.

In the "words" of Scurrilous (I like that guy)) :thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

3. I don't think that works. God put you white guys here

in her infinite wisdom, to shoot your mouths off and to tempt the rest of us to answer you back.

It's the natural order of the Loudmouth, trading fours, Universe.

[JeffR]

40. Hmm. God has a weird sense of humor.

I grow weary of listening to white people talk about race issues, myself. It all adds up to zilch when set against the insights I've experienced hearing non-white friends, co-workers and even casual acquaintances discuss these issues.

[Yael]

6. If only they listen

I am half Jewish, and we lost extended family in Germany in the Holocaust (HaShoah). Noting that I wasn't born until the late 60s. It is just a part of our family history.

When people throw out comparisons to what the Nazi regime did to 6,000,000 Jews and 2,000,000 gay men and women, the disabled and gypsies, I want to spit my teeth out. People have no idea of the history they are tramping on when they haven't had it as part of their life and downplay it as soundbytes.

[Chovexani]

31. I cringe when I see it. I really do.

I lost an entire branch of my family tree in the Porrajmos (this is an equivalent word to the Shoah, that the Roma use) that I never got to know. I feel the same way when people try to compare things to slavery. WTF?

I think this political season has exposed the ugly underbelly of prejudice in the Democratic party, on every level: racism, sexism, homophobia, classism. For a queer woman of color, it has not been fun.

Mostly I just feel like saying fuckit and moving to Mars, or something. :(

[Yael]

32. I hear that

Love your sig line!

:toast:

[GoldieAZ49]

8. We should not vote for what we cannot discuss

Silencing the people, is that the new democratic policy?

Is this the great Change we have been Hoping for?

[hiaasenrocks]

9. Go ahead. Nobody's stopping you from not saying anything.

Or however that works.

[JeffR]

41. Thanks.

;)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. because Wright is sabotaging Obama's campaign?

like it or not, that is the truth.

[JeffR]

43. If he were, I wouldn't like it.

Just to contradict what I wrote in the OP, my stated point - as a gormless white guy - is that this issue is completely phony. Obama's campaign is being sabotaged, true, but not by Reverend Wright.

[Coexist]

11. I try to keep my mouth shut about stuff like that

I totally see your point.

[Bucky]

12. Thank you. We need the reminder that race is an absolute. There can be no human empathy betwn races.

How many white people here have the first scintilla of an idea of what it's really like to be an African-American? I'm guessing the answer, if we're being honest, is zero.

Actually, that's the answer if you're a racial determinist and don't think that there's ever any hope for interracial understanding. If people's basic precepts and knowledge is based entirely on race, your argument is correct.

You have helped me see the light. I will now switch my support to Senator Clinton.

[Barack_America]

13. I don't know shit!

But at least living in inner cities the past decade or so has taught me that I don't know shit.

That was a valuable lesson.

[crankychatter]

15. the confession of folly, is the beginning of wisdom

get down with your bad self, kristi

[Maddy McCall]

14. What a stupid post. Are we not supposed to have an opinion on...

American Indian issues, because we aren't American Indian? (well, some of us aren't.)

Are we not to speak on immigration issues because we aren't Latino?

Are we not to have an opinion on Iraq, because we aren't Sunni or Shiite?

Can't criticize Israel's policies, because we aren't Israeli?

[Barack_America]

19. No, you're supposed to realize the limits of your ability to understand. n/t

[Doityourself]

23. Not all immigration issues are related to Latinos. False stereotype. Please open your eyes.

[Duder]

30. Actually…

The term “American Indian” can be controversial which is why I believe the OP’s point was that on some issues it’s better to open your ears and learn from those that may have different sensitivities rather than sometimes opening your own mouth with opinions about issues you may not yet fully understand.

[Maddy McCall]

44. .....

Actually, it's more acceptable to American Indians (according to the scholars among us) than "Native Americans" or "Indigenous People."

My PhD is in American Indian History. And I'm part Cherokee and Creek.

[Duder]

50. ....American Indian

Accepted term by a margin of 50% to 37% based on a 1995 census. Still controversial with some - http://www.indianz.com/News/2008/008417.asp

[Bake]

106. Oooooh, SNAP!!!

Good one, Maddy!!

:hi:

Bake

[Yael]

34. You may empathize, but to imply that you know how people

think if you have never walked a mile in their moccasins is beyond the pale.

I accept criticism of Israel for example, but as a dual citizen, I take it with a grain of salt because I have lived it. 99.9% chance the person leveling the accusations has no clue.

[JeffR]

54. I used the word "inartful" in the OP, which I guess is ironic now

since obviously, I made my point inartfully. I don't mean for a second that white people aren't entitled to an opinion on this. What I meant was that the opinions of people who don't have experience being on the receiving end of racism are essentially irrelevant compared to the opinions of those who have experienced it.

I have strong opinions about the invasion and occupation of Iraq, for example. But if I were an Iraqi and voiced those same opinions, I would hope they would carry more weight than the opinion of some guy sitting behind a computer on this side of the ocean.

All I've seen for months now on TV and on the tubes is an endless parade of white folks blathering on about the ramifications on Obama's campaign of Wright, of Obama's own formative years, with absurdist sidetrips into Farrakhan, Indonesia, Kenya, and on and on and on. Even the few non-white commentators the news networks deign to have on are usually ideologues of one stripe or the other.

And through it all, the sanest, most persuasive person who has spoken about race issues has been Obama himself. His speech on race is what finally got me off the fence when I was still feeling sorry for myself after first Kucinich, and then Edwards, dropped out of the race.

We all have opinions, and white people are entitled to theirs just like anyone else. But I'm sick and tired of white people, especially the punditocracy, pontificating about race like they have any sort of meaningful, personal insight on it. They don't.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't note that my opinions about sexism against women are also heartfelt and sincere, but my feelings about that are much less worthwhile than the observations of a woman on the same topic.

That's what I was inartfully trying to say.

[ima_sinnic]

103. better to be quiet and appear intelligent than start yapping and reveal you don't know shit

I notice in this thread that those who are "offended" are of course HRC "supporters," the ones who are always obsessed about race and their overriding need to inject it into every discussion.

[Trajan]

16. I think this is lame ....

People have the opportunity to discuss nearly everything of which they know nothing ....

Unless you know everything, then you just might be a hypocrite if you discuss any subject area of which you have less-than-perfect knowledge ....

I have always laughed at the 'please shut up' threads .....

Funny ....

[JeffR]

58. Please see response #54 for what is hopefully an elucidation

Of course, people have the opportunity to discuss this. White people, all people. What I was trying - apparently feebly - to get across is that most of the pontificating and absolutist statements on this issue seem to be coming from white people. And any white person's opinion on the racial divide is on its face far less relevant than that of a non-white person, just as any man's opinion about bias against women is much less relevant than a woman's point of view on the issue.

I didn't mean to advocate literal "shutting up" of opinions on this board. What I do advocate is that white people stop coming across, here and elsewhere, as if they really understand the ramifications of all this. Because they can't. I can't. If you're white, you can't either. We can continue to discuss and spar over this issue, and we will, but all this absolutist prattle simply adds an ironic new definition to the term "white noise".

[anonymous171]

17. I hear ya. I'm that way about women's issues too.

[AZBlue]

18. No, I don't have a clue what it's like to be African American. But, I can be angry by racism.

And I can do something about it. I agree - we shouldn't talk about things we don't fully understand as if we've experienced it ourselves. But, we can - and should - fight to end the problem.

[JuniperLea]

20. No one every learned a thing by shutting up

Unless you speak your mind, and listen to others speaking theirs, you are doomed to continue on in a fog.

You can't assume all white people don't know shit, either. How many of us married a black person, or had a child by them? Or defended a sibling, cousin, aunt or uncle who did? What about those of us who are empathetic to a fault and feel the pains and sorrows of everyone who voices them, without judgment, or agreement for that matter?

I don't agree with shutting anyone up. Least of all those with something to learn.

[stillcool]

25. but passing the same bullshit...

around gets no one anywhere. People are making judgments about things they know nothing about. Like what a Black Preacher should and should not say in a Black Church.

[JuniperLea]

26. I love Rev. Wright

I changed my tune after taking my own good advice and actually listening to him...

I would ask him if it was right to have a "black" church, and if this pasty white Irish chick could sit in, and if I did, would I be made to feel unwelcome... I remember having harsh words with the elders of my childhood church when my young rockin' music ministry brought in a lot of black kids and they told me "they" belonged in their own church... to which I replied, that is the point, they don't have a church and kinda like ours... so why can't WE be their church? Who would Jesus turn away? Maybe I just felt a little put off after taking a beating on behalf... whatever.

People will always be stupid and listen to opinion over fact, you can't change everyone. I guess we should learn not to try. Or not.

[stillcool]

36. No...I don't mean that we should ever...

stop trying to communicate. And I am wrong to say that there is no good that will come from talking about opinions without facts...plant the seeds and watch the flowers grow!

[2rth2pwr]

105. Obama launching this guy was actually kind of sad.

[KAZ]

27. Juniper, sometimes I really love your posts.

Not all the time, mind you. :)

[JuniperLea]

29. Awww...

Here's a hug for the times you do... :hug:


And here's a beer for the times you don't... because if we sat, sipped, and chatted, we wouldn't necessarily have a change of mind, but probably a change of heart.

[Yael]

35. Like my dad always said, The good Lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.

God rest his soul.

[pecwae]

98. Great post.

How can we learn if we don't ask questions?

[Patsy Stone]

21. Amen

And you know, with all of the hubbub, I'm still not crystal clear on why they want me to be so afraid of Rev. Wright anyway.

K&R

[Yael]

37. Because hes a loud, scary, angry black man

And we are all supposed to be afraid of that preacherfying style of communication.

[Patsy Stone]

45. Oh...

I see.

:scared:

[Yael]

47. You didn't get the memo?

Will make sure you are added to the "bullshit that they are slinging at our candidate(s) list".

Seriously -- this thing better not play. It is crap with a capital C.

[Patsy Stone]

49. It really just shows the world

the American media's ass.

I just found it outrageous that they can play it non-stop, making it up as they go along, yet they never come right out and tell you why they are so outraged. Just that want me to be very afraid.

On the good side, it's first reference is way, way behind in most popular videos. That title currently goes to the alligator and the golf balls story.

[Yael]

52. I was abroad last year. May

Back in Israel. I met a lot of Europeans over the 2 week stretch (Austria, English. Swiss, Italy, Germany) -- some there as UN border watchers, others for private work.

The MINUTE I opened my mouth, they knew I was American.

Damn almighty if I didn't get a barrage about our country and Iraq. Nasty, vitrolic stuff.

My response in all cases was that we have an election coming up in 18 months and that it will change everything.

Indeed, this is anecdotal, but to me, representative of just how much hatred is out there for us right now.

[pnorman]

22. Here's a posting I just put up on DU, that might be relevant to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5725940&mesg_id=5725940

pnorman

[JeffR]

59. Great post.

I kicked and recced it. It was a hell of a lot better than this OP. Thanks for posting that.

[jasmine621]

38. What should I do? My parents are mixed ( white mom, black dad).

I know too well both sides of this issue. It's not pretty.

[JeffR]

60. And you, like Obama, probably have thoughts on this we all need

to hear. I'd be very interested in knowing about your experience, and what your opinion is on the real significance of the Wright pseudo-scandal.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. It looks like most that responded disagreed with you.

But you meant well. ;-)

[JeffR]

61. If I'm wrong about this, I don't mind being corrected.

So far, all I'm convinced of is that the OP was written hastily and was probably too vague.

[aquarius dawning]

46. How about you go first?

[JeffR]

62. How about you just put me on ignore?

That way nothing I say can offend your delicate, and presumably white, sensibilities?

[Bennyboy]

51. I may not be black......

But there are times I sure wish I wasn't white....Frank Zappa.

[2rth2pwr]

53. Translation- "Please stop talking about this, it is hurting my candidate. I don't

know how to defend it so I'll fall back on the tried and true stance that it's a

black thing and none of y'all would understand"

[Yael]

55. Or, what Jeff was saying is that people should not make presumptions

about moccasins that they haven't walked in.

Don't you have an echo chamber to attend to?

[rucky]

56. the assumptions are what's hurting everybody.

including the ass's doing the 'uming.

[JeffR]

63. Absolute disingenuous bullshit response

I expected no better from you, though, so it's all good.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

57. I believe I do, I have a very good idea..I lived (shared a house) with many AA 's in my life

so the "zero" aspect noes not apply here.

[bridgit]

66. Nor to me, and I am weary of this pontification from The Great White North...

Let them come here, to where we live, and live here as do we all so they will know more for certain...soon they will know and not merely in the abstract. These matter are more than salon banter, nibbled twixt cheese & sips of wine

[ElsewheresDaughter]

67. amen

[JeffR]

75. Please read response #74 before retreating to the amen corner.

That response was crap, and you know it.

[bridgit]

100. ...

Blow Me!!

[JeffR]

74. That's bullshit, and I think you know it.

Like me, you could have chosen to move abroad years ago. Millions of Americans live abroad, and I'm sure you know that. I'm an American, a voter, and an activist, and for you to raise my foreign residency in this context is nothing more than a cheap ad hominem. If you have an actual rebuttal to what I posted, make it. There have been some good, thoughtful rebuttals in this thread. That you just decided to resort instead to this bullshit is profoundly offensive.

[bridgit]

99. I find your cliquish condescension offensive, sir, and you have no idea where I have lived...

in this world, were cloistered, or hitchhiked; which speaks somewhat more than you'd care to entertain: your sense of superiority for having moved elsewhere while many more remain to both heed & labor between these tasks here upon which you continue to pontificate from afar.

Further, I reject your brand of neo class-ism, and you know *that* to be the case. It nurtures disparity between common ideals, which you continue to wonder too often from whence they are come. And now you; or at least I am only able to hope that you understand such matters but for the likelihood that personal popularity is key to such pursuits. That way...you have your cadre clamoring for your DUsy. Which I have as well spoken upon the downsides therein evolved now into an Obama sleep-over. Pft, no political import indeed.

"thoughtful rebuttals in this thread", or indeed others where your familial relations are to be found; are those that perform little more function than to kiss your ass.

You may've been gone too long. If ever your creed were here.

[JeffR]

71. Hi, ED. You raise an interesting point here which I hadn't touched on

in the OP. I think many of us have or have had - cliché notwithstanding - AA friends, relatives, loved ones, co-workers, bosses or otherwise significant people in our lives. Relationships like these do give us some insight into what African-Americans (or other so-called "visible minorities") have experienced. But there's a huge gap between getting that insight and being able to declare in unwavering terms the significance of race to the Obama campaign or to anything else.

Not to put you into this category, but there have been some loud, ostensibly white voices raised here for many weeks now about race and electability, about black preachers, about which campaign played the "race card" and who benefits and who doesn't.

I'm interested in hearing from non-whites about what they've experienced. I'm interested in hearing from women about their experiences. What pains me is to see racism and sexism deployed for the sake of partisan talking points, and we've seen lots of that here. These are serious matters, not conversational gambits or trump cards to be played at a poker table. That's what prompted the OP, though I'm given to understand it was not well articulated.

These things need to be discussed carefully, seriously and with an impulse more to listening than speaking, if this country is ever to grow up. Both candidates have at times tried to initiate serious dialog about race and gender, not always successfully. I give them credit for trying, though. I wish more people, in both camps, would try to emulate them on that.

Instead, I see mostly old, mostly white, mostly male talking heads constantly jabbering about sexism and racism, dragging the discussion down to puerile platitudes and haughty pronouncements. The candidates, and the nation, deserve better than this.

Thanks for raising this point. I think it's an important one.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

77. I agree, especially with the "more to listening than speaking, and

mostly old, mostly white, mostly male talking heads constantly jabbering about sexism and racism, dragging the discussion down "

I am thankful that it has been put in the front of the American dialog and some ( and perhaps MANY are finally HEARING!

[JeffR]

80. My OP did little to raise the level of discourse, I guess, but the

discussion needs to be had by the people, not the pundits. It won't necessarily be easy, but it's damned necessary and way overdue. It's a shame it takes a crucial election season to start the discussion, because there's a danger that it will swamp the immediate, pragmatic issue: getting the damned Republicans out of power. But if we're going to thrash this out now, the first voices I want to hear on the issues of racism and sexism, respectively, are non-whites and women.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

83. Agreed....The people need to speak and be heard!!!

[xchrom]

64. i often feel the same way about straight people --

hasn't ever happened though.

[bridgit]

69. ...

:hi: :hug:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. oh but it has (just not enough)...but it will....

increase just as race dialog will

it's all GOOD!

:loveya:

[JeffR]

81. A friend of mine years ago told me in pretty much these words:

"Straight people are a drag." He winked, but he was serious. It was hard to disagree with him.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

84. You know what you know that what your friend knows is the truth, my friend

will we ever not have to have these discussions....sigh

someday I pray it ill be reality!

[JeffR]

87. And between now and whenever that happens

we all have forty miles of bad road and a lot of heartache ahead. It's a damn shame.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

89. unfortunelately these are my fears too

I believe this is all good.....and they will pass and we (as a community)will progress beyond these foolish things.

[JeffR]

93. I hope so too.

And thanks for your comments.

[DerekJ]

65. I'm white, and I 'm defending Write, because he is right. Not because of Obama

[ruby slippers]

68. I know what it is like to be FAT so I can just imagine......

what discrimination does feel like. And, I'm white.

I have taught black kids in one school setting and white kids in another in the same mid-size town and the difference afforded by facilities, experiences, amenities, environment, etc. are very disturbing. It is almost as if I was in two different countries the way these kids were being treated so differently by tax dollars. Oh, and I'd go back to teach the black kids any day. They wanted hugs. The white kids just told me to "go hug myself"....(and sometimes something rhyming with that)

[anamandujano]

70. The problem with Wright is that people do understand him.

Obama understood him too, and agrees with him. That is why he stayed so long.

[JeffR]

73. Maybe your problem. I'd suggest humbly, is that you don't understand him.

I grew up in the Deep South during the crucial years of the Civil Rights movement and the escalation of the Vietnam War, and I've had occasion to think "God damn America" since before I was a teenager. If you haven't, maybe you weren't paying enough attention.

[Beausoir]

72. Of all the ridiculous posts that have been posted...this one deserves some kind of trophy.

Maybe something blonde?

[JeffR]

76. Hate me if you want

but I love your response.

:thumbsup:

[Kurovski]

78. K&R. (nt)

[Breeze54]

82. 'some were responding to Mr. Obama’s call for a national conversation about race.'

Groups Respond to Obama’s Call for National Discussion About Race

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/us/politics/20race.html

By LARRY ROHTER and MICHAEL LUO
Published: March 20, 2008

The speech Senator Barack Obama delivered Tuesday morning has been viewed more than 1.6 million times on YouTube and is being widely e-mailed. While commentators and politicians debated its political success Wednesday, some around the country were responding to Mr. Obama’s call for a national conversation about race.

Religious groups and academic bodies, already receptive to Mr. Obama’s plea for such a dialogue, seemed especially enthusiastic. Universities were moving to incorporate the issues Mr. Obama raised into classroom discussions and course work, and churches were trying to find ways to do the same in sermons and Bible studies.

The Obama speech was also a topic of discussion on Wednesday at the Washington office of the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy and social welfare group. Hispanics can be white, black or of mixed race. “The cynics are going to say this was an effort only to deal with the Reverend Wright issue and move on,” said Janet Murguia, president of La Raza, referring to the political fallout over remarks by Mr. Obama’s former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., which prompted Mr. Obama to deliver the speech.

But Ms. Murguia said she hoped that Mr. Obama’s speech would help “create a safe space to talk about this, where people aren’t threatened or pigeonholed” and “can talk more openly and honestly about the tensions, both overt and as an undercurrent, that exist around race and racial politics.”

On the Internet and in many areas of the traditional news media, such a discussion was already taking shape. Some four million people watched Mr. Obama’s speech live, and it is now the top YouTube video.

The speech has stimulated passionate discussion on scores of blogs of varying ideological tendencies, and an article about the speech in The New York Times has provoked more than 2,250 comments.

More....

[JeffR]

85. Obama's call was admirable, and long overdue in America,

But, for a change, it's time for the white people to talk only when everyone else has had their turn.

That's how the discussion should begin.

[Breeze54]

88. I disagree. This is the country of free speech. Remember the Bill of Rights?

Everyone gets to say what they want to say.

[JeffR]

92. Yes, they do, Breeze, and I don't call for abridgement of that right.

But it's obvious to me, at least, that the notion of "free speech" has been utterly perverted. Dissenters are herded into "free speech zones" - an affront to the Constitution if ever there was one - while "public discourse" as filtered and shepherded by the mainstream media, the noble "free press" that same document championed, has become a sorry mire of he said/she said obfuscation and infantile opinion masquerading as reporting.

Yes, people should be free to talk shit if they wish, but unfortunately, virtually the entirety of what passes for a national dialog is nothing but shit now. Even on PBS and NPR, even in the Washington Post and the New York Times. This can't possibly be what the framers of the Constitution had in mind. If it was, then apparently they were as batshit nuts as we are in the here and now.

[Zynx]

86. I disagree to an extent here.

It is important to see exactly what "white America", to the extent such an entity exists, is thinking and feeling in an open manner. If whites are not allowed to voice their opinions, we won't know what is going on in that end of the discussion. I'm not saying we have to listen to racists, but I think it is not helpful at all to say "You're white so you can't talk about race".

[JeffR]

90. You're right, and I hope I made that clear in some of my responses

if not in the OP itself. We can never know too much about this issue. To really solve it, we have to learn everything we can. What fries me is the amount of figleafing and pandering that accompanies any serious reckoning about what kind of country we are and what knd of country we want to be.

And most of that, essentially, comes from white people. We have to get beyond that and have a real discussion instead of a contest of poorly supported talking points.

[Breeze54]

91. Of course everyone should be able to say what they want to say.

And if they are using racist speech, that's against the DU Rules and that's what ignore
and alert are for! People should use them, if they don't like the way some talk. I do!

http://homepage.eircom.net/~kthomas/history/History2.htm#THE%20MILESIANS">THE CELTS
Long, long ago beyond the misty space
of twice a thousand years,
In Erin old there dwelt a mighty race,...

[yardwork]

95. Very good point.

And while we're at it, maybe straight DUers could stop telling gay DUers like me what is and isn't a homophobic slur. If you don't know a homophobic slur when you hear one, then consider yourselves lucky.

[boston bean]

96. I might just as soon as every male shuts up about Hillary, I mean honestly, how could any man know

what it's like to be a woman. He can't speak to any of the issues because he doesn't know shit about them.

give me a break

[hokies4ever]

97. As a male, I don't have a problem with Hillary's gender

just her desire for WWIII with Iran. I would have thought about voting for Nancy Pelosi. She doesn't seem to be a warmonger like Hillary.

[zabet]

101. As a mixed DUer,

I do not see how you can silence an opinion like that. How are we to ever know if people 'get it' if they are not allowed to post their point of view and if right, enlighten and if wrong, be enlightened?

That makes as much sense as telling all the men on here to shut up about Hillary 'cause they know nothing about being a woman.

[Why Syzygy]

102. When trauma is done to another human, all of humanity suffers.

Even as a white, the civil rights issue has been painful, though NOT, CERTAINLY NOT in the same way.
I don't mean to minimize any suffering. I just want to point out that healing in the Black communities will mean healing for all of us. And, you're right, we don't know what it's like. But I know *they* need the same thing we all do. Acknowledgment. Validation. That's all.

[FlyingSquirrel]

104. I don't...

But on the other hand, I know what it's like to be racially profiled.

I went to Basic Training, and at one point I was sitting at a table with three African-Americans. One of them said, "So what's it like to be eating with some black guys?" I was seriously taken aback by the question. Before it was asked, I didn't give a crap. I was just sitting with some fellow soldiers. I was actually pretty annoyed that race had been brought up to me when all I was doing was eating some friggin' food.

It actually made me resentful of the person who had asked it. So there ya go. Just friggin leave it alone is my personal opinion.

[ImpeechBush]

107. Does that mean that those who are not white can't say anything about whites?

Seems like a terrible idea both ways. Separate the races so nobody can talk about another race? Crazy.