Howard Dean, MTP ..."The MOST delegates wins"

[Blarch]

Not the popular vote.

Not 2025

Not who is 'more electable'

THE MOST DELEGATES

Hillary needs to be asked ..."will you follow the rules?"

[IDemo]

1. Happy to be the first rec

[tiptoe]

108. Simple MATH: If remaining pledged delegates split 50/50, Clinton needs 69% of uncommitted Super Ds.

The Excel Delegate Calculator ( x )

[K Gardner]

2. The only rules Clinton follows are hers.. made up to fit her needs at the moment.

[Blarch]

5. He leaned forward and slowed his speech...

"The MOST delegates wins"

He made sure these words were heard.

[Zhade]

28. That is so friggin awesome! He put it in her face - NO SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS, clinton!

Woohoo!

[Triana]

8. Sounds like someone I dated once and dumped

just for that reason. That was their attitude.

That type of attitude is one of a real narcissist. Not someone who just has narcissistic behaviors or tendencies. We've all got that to some extent sometimes. But people who consistently think 'special' rules ought to apply to them NO MATTER WHAT - are malignant narcissists. They can't see their own mistakes, their own hypocrisy, their own desperate ridiculousness, and think they are (or should be) 'above' everyone else. In a word: ELITIST. You know, like the Republicans are - hypocrisy is their hallmark.

[reflection]

32. "Malignant Narcissism"

Are you a South Park fan, a Rush fan, or both? That's a reference you don't see often. :)

[Captain Angry]

38. I saw your post...

And had to read the other one to see if there was a Rush reference in there. :-)

I'll have to go find the South Park one, I didn't know they've used that line.

[reflection]

86. Rush got it from South Park.

If you listen closely to the song, there's a vocal snippet from 'Team America' in there about malignant narcissism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. I have been saying this for months now

A good friend is a clinical psychologist and he says BOTH Hillary and Bill are textbook classic narcissists. A certain amount of narcissism is necessary for any politician or public figure but the Clintons overdosed at the narcissism fountain.

[LVjinx]

56. Actually, Dean is wrong. 2025 are needed, he needs to stop trying to change the rules

This is like the fifth lame iteration he's tried to foist off on us.

[krawhitham]

66. No you're WRONG

Most delegates WIN, PERIOD

and one of them will happen to have 2025+ in the end

[N4457S]

93. Yes...

...and if the Democrats don't do something about it, she and Bill are gonna destroy the party. They nearly did that during their two terms in the White House.

I this morning where Howard Dean apparently has concerns about being Vince Fostered if he doesn't give Hillary what she wants.

I still say Pelosi should call someone from the old neighborhood and take care of this once and for all.

[Va Lefty]

3. I guess Howard is "dead" to the Clintons?

:shrug:

[newmajority]

17. Howard was "dead" to the Clintons in 2003

The DLC hasn't stopped attacking him since. It's really pathetic, considering he was the first one to show any leadership in this party whatsoever, this decade.

[Eurobabe]

82. I can't believe I am going to say this, but given his endorsement of Hillary

I now believe that the Clintons DID push Wes Clark to run for CIC in 2003 to take out Dean, so Hilly could run in 2008.

I staunchly defended Wes Clark against this bullshit, but seeing the lengths that the Clintons have gone to in this race, I now think it is entirely possible scenario, they knew the CONS would win, by hook or crook.

I am also sorry that I did not back Howard Dean in 2003. :(

[PassingFair]

90. Clinton's DLC buddy, Lieberman, was also working full-time against...

both Dean and the "activist" democrats.

This revolt in the party is LONG overdue.

[4themind]

4. Whoever gets to the magic number* (from pledged and super dels) gets the nomination

*which right now is 2024. Love that pic btw

[Blarch]

7. he said ..."The rules say ..the most delegates wins"

[4themind]

16. He's right and there are two types of delegates-nt

[StevieM]

25. There are three types of delegates--elected, caucus and super. All count equally. (eom)

[mckeown1128]

45. no pledged and unpledged...

It amazes me to see someone swallow idiotic talking points with out question. Do you even realize the Hillary made up the "caucus delegates" no one before her has ever used the term... and those delegates ARE elected by the way. Voters went and voted on them.

[Political Heretic]

70. That is incorrect.

Both caucus and primary delegates are the same - pledged delegates, elected.

[evolvingsteve]

94. k, so let's do the math!

Obama: 13 Caucus's won, Clinton: 2

Primaries won: Obama 17 Clinton 16

Obama has the most Pledged delegates and is only 24 superdelegates behind Clinton, which will change even more in favor of Obama soon.

He has the most in Popular votes and won contests.....

MI only had Clinton on the ballot, so we know how fair that primary was....

and FL, well, and in MI, many other Democrats could have voted and it's been proven so but they didn't cause they didn't think it would have counted, and there's no way we are going to disenfranchise them, now are we??? (the ones that didn't get to vote) but, we obviously can't re-vote for both states cause their elected officials broke the rules and grew impatient....this disenfranchisement argument can be used against Clinton when she claims to have the previous results should be counted.....what a bafoon....her own words used against her.....

and now Dean is talking about just the pledged delegates will be the deciding factor, doesn't surprise me because that counts on American voters not SUPER people that have ties or obligations to one person or the other....

but of course, besides that, every other part of the pie will be covered with Obama supporters leading in the end, so we won't even have to debate this, the gap will be even smaller soon and Obama will be the nominee....

by the way, I get these facts from USA today....don't cry now Hillary supporters.

Come join the OBAMA Camp!!!!!

peace






:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

[Window]

6. K/R. Hear that Hillary, "the most delegates."

:kick:

[Scurrilous]

9. K & R

:thumbsup:

[JNelson6563]

10. Dean is the man.

And I still favor him over all the damn pols. I love the way he goes into near throw-down mode with the corporate whore media. They so suck and he is just great at yankin' their leashes. haha Go Howard!

Julie

[stray cat]

11. He made a point of the one who had the most elected and super delegates

[Raven]

12. Makes good sense. If BO is raising more $ and has a broader, deeper fundraising

base; if he has the popular vote and more delegates; why would the head of the Democratic Party enter into a suicide pact with Hillary Clinton? Dean knows what will happen if Clinton picks up the nomination. See my post here...Obama supporters might vote for her...might...but there will be no $ and no volunteering. And if the weather's bad on election day, I can see a lot of Obama supporters staying home.

[Zhade]

29. Especially with the new co-financing deal between the DNC and the Obama campaign.

No such deal exists with the clinton campaign -- because she won't be the nominee, of course, so why bother?

[psychopomp]

13. That is the way the process is intended to work

Mr. Dean is just "tellin' it like it is."

[dbmk]

14. Well, I don't think anyone is contesting that

Super delegates are delegates too. And right now a few of them can decide this using whatever basis they want. Electability could be such a basis. Impact on the party down the line could be as well.

I am pretty sure he has no intention of pointing anyone in any direction with that comment.

[AZSlacker]

55. You ar right of course

but Obama has to sway many fewer SD's than Clinton does.

[Blarch]

15. Dean ...

"You cannot change the rules at the end of the game"

[greiner3]

89. You forgot your sarcasm drippy thing!

[madfloridian]

18. Video up now.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24338024#24337977

It is in sections. Other segments on the left.

People have spun this interview so badly.

It was great.

This is the one about the superdelegates. He talks about superdelegate rules and his own personal view.

He makes it clear it is about delegates.

[MonkeyFunk]

19. of course

nobody's ever argued otherwise.

[Zhade]

30. HAHAHAHAHA!! Yeah, right, suuuure you haven't.

NT!

[MonkeyFunk]

31. Seriously

when has anybody argued that the person with the fewest delegates wins?

That's absurd.

[whopis01]

52. People have argued about a plurality versus an absolute majority.

The OP was trying to point out that Dean was claiming a plurality was needed, not an absolute majority. I'm not sure that is what Dean was meaning to say though.

[MonkeyFunk]

65. I've never heard that

I never heard anybody argue - EVER - that having fewer than 2025 delegates should secure the nomination.

The only question is whether having more pledged delegates should secure the nomination.

[Fedja]

67. Is it?

Surely, having -less- pledged delegates should secure the nomination? Especially if the candidate can knock back a stiff one on day 1 and git 'er done.

[whopis01]

97. Did you read the OP? That was the argument being made there.

and you responded "of course" "nobody's ever argued otherwise"

The OP was quoting Dean and went on to make the argument:

"Not the popular vote. Not 2025. Not who is 'more electable'. THE MOST DELEGATES"

Perhaps you missed the 'Not 2025' portion.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. You're telling me/us that you haven't heard the popular vote argument?

Made by

Hillary
Bill
Howard
Terry
Evan
Ed
etc..

[rinsd]

102. And who is that argument directed at? Superdelegates who can vote as they please.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

103. And when will that happen?

Never.

[rinsd]

104. Superdelegates vote at the convention.

Though they can make their intentions known, they are not bound to them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

106. And the leaders have made it abundantly clear that

the pledged delegate leader should get the necessary endorsements to put that candidate over the top.

An SD coup will not happen.

[otohara]

20. Rules is Rules

unless you've got the Supreme Ct. in your corner.

[bbgrunt]

21. I do love that good doctor!

[Left coast liberal]

22. That is such a great picture of Howard!

[democrattotheend]

63. Love that picture - I'm in it!

I'm the girl on his right with a wide open mouth. That photo was taken 4.5 years ago in Falls Church, VA. The campaign used it in a bunch of literature, and it was later doctored in Photoshop by a Republican running for governor of New Jersey.

[evolvingsteve]

107. lol

your a little cutie!



;) :loveya:

[Enrique]

23. Dean didn't take sides

[DemVet]

24. Actually, the rules say...

...the candidate with 2025 delegates wins the Nomination. Not the one with the most delegates (if neither has 2025), but the one with 2025.

If neither candidate has 2025 votes, the superdelegates will vote for whoever they damn well wish to. Most will likely take popular vote into account, among other factors, when making their decision.

Popular vote, you see, DOES matter.

[cali]

27. they'll trake lots of things into consideration and hill does not

have the popular vote.

[SoCalDem]

33. So when enough SDs vote to give Barack 2025

will Hillie "poll the jury" and force them to tell her what reasoning they used to determine her loss?:rofl:

By the time the SDs come into play , he will only need a very small number of them to give him the 2025.. he may only need 60 or so of the remaining 294...

[PseudoIntellect]

36. Most of the SDs have already decided, and it has almost been split down the middle.

About 53-47% victory for Clinton so far in SDs. Except...that margin used to be 80% for her, and in the last few months her lead has dropped drastically after unconvincing performances in the primaries.

Less than a third of the SDs haven't yet decided, and by the recent trends, who do you think it's gonna be?

[Zhade]

26. Indeed. Obama will be the nominee.

Gobama!

[frickaline]

34. Another misleading thread: he said most SUPERdelagates

><

[Rosa Luxemburg]

41. yes he said Superdelegates not delegates, however.............

many of the Suprs are going for Obama

[Blarch]

72. Bull shit.

Total BS.

Here is the quote...

DR. DEAN: The rules say that the candidate with the most delegates gets the nomination, and I support the rules.

[frickaline]

88. not true - quotes enclosed

most recently:

"Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said superdelegates should make known their choices on the Democratic nominee for president by the end of June. Ultimately, he said he believes their decisions will be based on who is more electable, rather than necessarily who has the most pledged delegates, because that is what party rules stipulate."

and prior to this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23904990#23904990


I believe you are reading into your quote, he meant superdelegates, thats the rules plain and simple.

[harun]

78. You wish (n/t)

[frickaline]

87. as an undecided voter - I Don't *wish* ... I just read

most recently:

"Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said superdelegates should make known their choices on the Democratic nominee for president by the end of June. Ultimately, he said he believes their decisions will be based on who is more electable, rather than necessarily who has the most pledged delegates, because that is what party rules stipulate."

[LSK]

92. that doesnt even make sense

When Obama finishes with a 150 pledged delegate lead, a 20 superdelegate lead for Hillary will not win it.

[PseudoIntellect]

35. The rules don't have her winning, so no, she doesn't want them to be followed.

[MNBrewer]

37. He brought me back to the Party

After Bill Clinton and Paul Wellstone drove me away with the Defense of Marriage Act. Too bad he dropped out of the race before I had a chance to go to caucus for him. Same with John Edwards.

(I know....caucus states don't count)

[Captain Angry]

39. I'm glad he keeps reminding the candidates that they have responsibilities.

The candidate who doesn't win the nomination MUST go to bat for the candidate who did. His remarks about spending 3 months campaigning for Kerry, going back to the college campuses and such were important.

No matter which candidate makes the cut, the other one needs to immediately get their supporters on the right path. If McCain wins, they will call it another Republican mandate like they did when Bush took office the 2nd time. They said this means that the voters support everything that the administration did and there is no reason to change.

I sure hope we get an answer soon so that the winning candidate can truly get on the attack on McCain. There are so many things he's wrong on that it's going to take months just to lay them all out.

[frickaline]

42. I think he's doing a really fine job with this very difficult situation

...at least so far. I hope this ends gracefully but I'm a bit nervous about closure on this primary.

[kenny blankenship]

40. Why ask her? You know she'll just change the subject

[ihelpu2see]

43. does that mean he said this on Meet the Press today? eom

[Yossariant]

44. Yep. Russert said, "ELECTED delegates?" and Dean responded, "Delegates."

:woohoo:

MR. RUSSERT: The candidate with the most ELECTED delegates is not guaranteed the nomination?

DR. DEAN: The rules say that the candidate with the most delegates gets the nomination, and I support the rules.

MR. RUSSERT: So that the superdelegates could, in effect, overrule the elected delegates?

DR. DEAN: That, you know, you shouldn't think of it that way. So-called "superdelegates" are, in fact, elected by exactly the same people who vote for the elected delegates. This is just--this is like an--a representative democracy. You elect a--80 percent of the delegates, and they have to do what you ask them to do. The others, the 20 percent you elect, essentially do what's in their best judgment, just like the House and the Senate does. Sometimes you like it, and sometimes you don't.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. Personally, I think this post is misleading ! He didn't say that

In fact, I was more discouraged by what he said - he said delegates can
use whatever criteria they want to chose

[madfloridian]

49. He quoted the rules, and he said he did not think it would happen that way.

[Blarch]

73. You are lying...

He DID say that ....

DR. DEAN: The rules say that the candidate with the most delegates gets the nomination, and I support the rules.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

85. Right - I know that - I was referring to what he said about SDs using

popular vote to pick a candidate to support and that it was the way it should be. I thought he stressed that
(over delegate lead.)

Do you always say things like "You are lying.." Wouldn't it be nicer to say - "could you please explain
what you mean..."

[Cha]

47. Thank you, Dear Dean!

[kentuck]

48. Don't be deceived.

This means all the delegates - not just the pledged delegates. They are studying it very carefully. After the elections are over, if the remaining delegates do not put Hillary over the top, then Obama will be the nominee. They will move to him by large number. After FL and MI become irrelevant...

[defendandprotect]

50. Isn't fundraising a sign of "electability" and "popular votes" . . . ???

Where are we on that ....
Is HRC still raising tens of millions post her PA success?

[mcollier]

51. Dean was a little shaky with his stances this morning

But he pulled it together at the end... I hope this week superdelegates will make a move... The media is loving this too much... The media is stealing the spotlight from the real story, and that is the strenght of the democratic party in this primary season...

[Zynx]

53. That's a questionable argument.

Romney raised more than any Republican and lost horribly.

[annie1]

54. Has he single handedly chosen for the superdelegates?

[mzmolly]

57. There's my man!

I love that pic. :D

[debbierlus]

58. Well, maybe a war with the democratic party is needed

Let's face it, they haven't really represented us for a very long time. So, if the dem leadership wants to play business as usual, let them play business as usual. What will happen will be a revolt against their betrayal....In the long run, it may be the best thing that could happen. If the DLC loses this election after supplanting a unelected nominee, they will face a revolution in their trusted base. It could be the straw that breaks the back of the party.

They have betrayed us as much as Bush has betrayed his sheep.

Maybe we should stop saying BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[psychopomp]

59. DEMS da RULES

Well said, Sir!

[tritsofme]

60. Dean is right, at the end of first ballot voting, one candidate will have 2024+ delegates.

That candidate with the most delegates will become the nominee.

From the context that is presented here, it doesn't seem to me as though Mr. Dean made the argument that the candidate with the most elected and caucus delegates automatically wins the nomination.

[xxqqqzme]

61. That is a great picture.

People powered Howard!

[democrattotheend]

62. That's me in that picture!

The girl on his right with her mouth wide open...that's me 4 years ago, in Falls Church, VA. That picture was used in a bunch of promotional literature for the campaign, and later Photoshopped by a Republican running for governor of New Jersey. Someone told me I was in a commercial in Iowa too, but I never saw it. Man, do I look stupid in that picture. Oh well, it was still kind of cool.

[writes3000]

64. You have a great, great face. So warm and genuine. n/t

[Apollo11]

74. Are you the person in the cap holding up the sign?

That is a cool memory you can keep forever! B-)

[democrattotheend]

83. Yup, that's me

I look kind of stupid, but oh well. I got 5 minutes of fame when Brett Schundler, a Republican running for governor of NJ, photoshopped the picture to make it look like it was his rally instead of Dean's. A reporter interviewed me and did an article about me as part of the story about the doctoring of that photo.

[Apollo11]

100. Awesome!

I remember that photoshop story. They changed your sign to say "Schundler reFORm Governor".



Man - you could have totally sued his a$$! ;-)

[Rex_Goodheart]

76. I'm in love

Will you marry me? (I love Howard Dean, too. And dogs)

[quantass]

68. k&r

[FrenchieCat]

69. That's it! Those are the rules!

[Apollo11]

71. Howard Dean is being totally fair and balanced

I am studying the transcript of yesterday's Meet The Press, and it is clear to me that Howard Dean is being "fair and balanced".

Dean is defending the right of the superdelegates to exercise their judgement and support whichever candidate they think would have the best chance of beating John McCain in November.

He does not agree with the Obama campaign's implied position that the superdelegates are obliged to vote for whichever candidate has the most pledged delegates after all the contests are wrapped up.

Dean also said that he hopes the Rules Committee will find a way of dealing with Florida and Michigan that takes voters rights into account: "First, you got to respect the voters. The voters of Michigan and Florida were not the people that screwed this all up."

I have no idea why Obama supporters are jumping on this interview as if Dean was dissing Hillary or something.

Transcript: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24338217/

[Medusa]

77. Yep. That's how the rules of the DNC work.

But suddenly the Clintons want to erase all of that and change them in their favor.

[baldguy]

80. Hillary: "Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules!"

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

81. That picture brings me back to the days

when Howard was running for President. I still love that guy! Thank goodness he is the head of the DNC. Right now that's about all that's giving me confidence that our party will resolve this mess fairly.

[undeterred]

84. This is just too complicated for Hillary supporters to understand...

but the polls...

but the popular vote...

but Michigan and Florida...

but Hillary is busy breaking the arms of the superdelegates...

but she's gonna whine and cry so long and loud we can't stand it...

but WE DON'T PLAY BY THE RULES, WE'RE THE CLINTONS AND WE MAKE UP OUR OWN RULES!!!

[Iggo]

91. You people are just figuring this out?

"Howard Dean, MTP ...'The MOST delegates wins'..."

This has been true from the very start, and obvious to most. And yet for months now, we've had this little board war between the followers of both candidates. ("Followers"...yikes!)

This is why GD:Pissed has been sent to the corner for the duration.

[Arkansas Granny]

95. Hasn't it always been about the number of delegate that will determine

the nominee? The argument I've seen is the criteria the superdelegates use to determine their vote, i.e. popular vote, delegate vote or their assessment as to who's the best candidate.

Edited to add:

Didn't Dean say just a few days ago that the superdelegates vote their conscience?

WASHINGTON -- Citing Democratic rules, national committee Chairman Howard Dean on Tuesday said that the superdelegates who are poised to select the party's presidential nominee are free to back whomever they wish at the end of the primaries, regardless of who leads in the popular vote or pledged delegates.

"They should use whatever yardstick they want," Dean said in an interview at party headquarters. "That's what the rules provide for."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-superdelegates2apr02,1,7387579.story

[knixphan]

96. Go Howard-

[Major Hogwash]

98. Good-bye Hillary. Good-bye Bubba. Take your racist bullshit somewhere else.

Just get off of the national stage!

[Texas Hill Country]

99. the most DELEGATES... that includes super that can use any measuring stick.

[rinsd]

101. Delegates = Pledged + Supers. Pop vote is an argument for SUPERS.

Electability is an argument for Super delegates.

This OP is the quintessential straw man.

Answering an argument never posed.

[barack the house]

111. No it's not a popular vote at all as it woud be just the big states counted they wouldn't...

need the smaller ones. No popular vote exists. It's a dlegate race so small states count.

[azmouse]

105. kick

[barack the house]

109. There is no popular vote delegates are assigned so small states are counted.

It's a delegate race he won and earned. You work hard play by the rules and one day you can be president.

A popular vote would mean everyone would go california or NY easy as that.

[Ramonna Villota]

110. YES

I feel a lot better about this

[ElsewheresDaughter]

112. Supers are delegates too...and they both will need them