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What makes you a tool? Talking about "delegate math."

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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:13 PM
Original message
What makes you a tool? Talking about "delegate math."

What makes you a tool? Talking about "delegate math."


So let's touch on an argument which came up after Ohio and Texas and seems (for whatever reason) to be getting a lot of play http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/23/54624/9063/994/501398">once again. It usually goes something like this:

Hillary's wins in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, while embarrassing for Obama, don't actually change the likely outcome of the election. During February Obama was able to acquire a substantial lead in pledged delegates and, because the Democratic primaries grant delegates proportionally, Hillary won't be able to overcome that advantage. Since Obama will have the lead in pledged delegates, super-delegates will feel obligated (both by moral and by political reasons) to respect the popular will and support Obama.

The argument here assumes a link between a lead in pledged-delegates and an eventual rally of super-delegates (without which, neither candidate can win the nomination). The link is made plausible with a pair of claims:

  • Super-delegates are politicians and are unlikely to buck the popular will. Popular support is demonstrated by a lead in pledged delegates.

  • A lead in pledged delegates bolsters claims of electablity, and super delegates want to support the candidate who can win in the general election.

Sadly for the people who actually buy into this, none of this reasoning holds up to much scrutiny. While the super-delegates may indeed feel obligated to ratify the will of the people, it's unlikely that the pledged-delegate count could endure any sort of serious media scrutiny and retain its status as an indicator of popular will in the public imagination. And since the pledged-delegate count is the only significant metric on which Obama maintains an insurmountable lead (after last night, the popular vote is http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/chooseyourown.html">within easy reach of the Hillary campaign), the idea that Obama's frontrunner status is unassailable simply falls flat.

Here's a quick taste of what the pledged-delegate count will be attacked with:

The Pledged Delegate System Is Undemocratic:

  • The pledged-delegate system can give more delegates to the candidate that loses a state. In both Texas and Nevada, Hillary won the popular vote yet Barak Obama walked away with the majority of the delegates. You don't have democracy if the votes don't determine who wins.

    Moreover, in Iowa the pledged-delegate system allowed Obama to take over some of Edwards' support without any follow-up election to confirm that Edwards supporters would all take Obama as their second choice (obviously they wouldn't all do that, so Obama stole at least some pledged delegates there.)


  • The pledged-delegate system violates the principle of one-person one vote. Among the most egregious examples of this, on the pledged delegate system a voter in Wyoming has more than sixteen times the influence that a voter in California has. Voters in Alaska are given almost seventeen times the influence of voters in New Jersey. Voters in here Texas get negative influence, because the pledged delegates from our state go the the guy we voted against. See the chart below to get an idea of how many people from your state have to fight with each other for the same voice as one person from Wyoming:



    (The popular vote count can be found http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html">here and the delegate distribution can be found http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_delegate_count.html">here. Note that I've done Ia, Me, Nv, and Wa as one state, because turnout estimates are only available for all four together.)


  • The Pledged-Delegate System is Racist. Even within states, pledged delegates, in violation of one-person-one-vote, are assigned to geographic areas based upon the rates at which those areas voted for Democrats in past elections. Moreover, since minority populations can cluster in geographic regions, members of a minority community can be given a disproportionately small voice in the nominating contest. This, in fact, happened here in Texas, where the largely Hispanic Rio Grande valley was given a smaller distribution of delegates than its population size merited.

    Moreover, in the same way that the racial biases and ingrained in the pledged-delegate system, geographical and economic biases are built in as well. All of these biases are undemocratic and all of them violate the principle of one-person one-vote.


Obama's delegate lead is entirely the product of counter-democratic biases in the pledged delegate system:

While it might seem that any oddities in the pledged delegate system have an irrelevant impact over the course of a whole nomination race, the chart below shows that, in fact, the vast majority of Obama's delegate lead is the product of states that either a) give hugely disproportionate weight to their voters over voters in other states, or b) hand delegates to the candidates in ways which are deeply inconsistent with the proportion of the vote won in that state, or c) do both (like Iowa).



What the chart above displays is that, out of Obama's 152 delegate lead, all but 14 delegates were picked up in states that have strong anti-democratic biases in their system of delegate distribution. And let me stress that the chart above only shows the delegates Obama picked up over and above delegates picked up from those states by Hillary.

The point, then, is that if you corrected for the anti-democratic biases strewn throughout the pledged-delegate system (both within states and between states), Obama's lead would be well within a range than Hillary could conceivably overcome. And once you do the math; once you see how Byzantine, undemocratic, and simply fucked up the pledged-delegate system is, it becomes really quite hard to justify any claim to the effect that super-delegates are bound (or likely) to respect any candidate's pledged-delegate lead.

The Popular Vote Avoids These Problems:

Now, I'll be the first to admit that there are problems with the popular vote (primarily involving what votes ought to be counted). But even the wildest and least plausible method for counting the popular vote is vastly more democratic than the pledged-delegate system. Bluntly, the pledged-delegate system is about as fucked up as any system purporting to reflect a popular mandate could really get.

For example, if you're a voter in California, your vote is vastly more diluted just in virtue of Minnesota's unmerited influence on the pledged-delegate system than it would be by the inclusion of Michigan on the popular vote. (Minnesota's caucus awarded one delegate to Obama for every 2,960 votes won by Obama, to a total of 48 delegates for Obama. Clinton picked up 204 delegates in California for a total of 2,608,184. That's a ratio of 12,785 Clinton votes to Clinton delegates. You could give the voters in the two states equal influence by adding Minnesota 9,825 voters for every Minnesota delegate. That would require adding 471,600 voters to the total number of voters. Counting Michigan in the popular vote would only mean adding 328,309.)

Moreover, the popular vote avoids problems of unevenly distributing influence, giving the win the the guy who got voted down, and undervaluing some minority communities.

"Delegate Math" is a Farce

Thus, if the race comes to a point where Hillary controls the popular vote and Obama leads in pledged-delegates, the Hillary camp is going to contest the use of pledged-delegates in the media and there's no way they're going to lose. The pledged-delegate system is so hugely undemocratic that awarding the nomination on the basis of it to the loser of the popular vote would create the sorts of "stolen-election" perceptions that could engender a backlash from Hillary supporters.

And that's what makes this "delegate-math" argument such a farce. Because while Obama may very well end up with both the lead in pledged-delegates and the nomination, who won't have the latter because of the former. He'll have the nomination because he held onto his popular vote lead. Nothing else in this race matters (barring bear attacks, kiddy-porn dungeon discoveries, and the like).
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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. The system is not designed for the popular vote. The fact that caucuses exist proves that any
'popular vote' metric is bullshit.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It doesn't need to be designed for that. My point is that no one who looks will really think that
the pledged-delegate system somehow reflects "popular will." It clearly doesn't, and even half-assed popular vote approximations are worlds better.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. WTF? Why hold primaries then? Why not have the SDs just choose from a list of nominees?
Edited on Wed Apr-23-08 05:34 PM by anonymous171
Before Hillary and her cult decided that the entire process was bad (code: She was losing) everything was going swell. Bill Clinton did just fine with the old rules.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. If Obama wasn't such a major Fail, super-delegates wouldn't even matter.
It's only because your candidate's inept that we're here. At least my candidate has systematic bias to blame it on.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Inept? WTF? He's winning. Hillary had the most SDs at the start
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. See the second chart. Almost all of his pledged delegate lead comes from
parts of the system of pledged-delegate distribution that are jacked up and undemocratic (e.g. the parts that give him more delegates in Texas even though he lost). The rest of it comes from disenfranchising major Hillary states (Florida and Michigan).

It's not that Obama's good. He actually sucks. hard. as a candidate. He's limping along on systematic bias and that's why he can't close the deal.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. How many times are you going to post this?
And, it's bullshit.

The Clinton's were the rulers of the Democratic Party for years, and never had a complaint about this "flawed" system. THe system is kicking their ass, and now they want to change it.

Here's some superdelegate math. when Obama gets to 338 Superdelegates, it's over. That is about how many he will need when all the contests are done. He has 233 now.

Hillary needs about 220 of the remaining 300. Ain't gonna happen.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. If she pulls secures the popular votes she can stay in over the summer and wage a media campaign
She can point out how undemocratic the pledged delegate system is, point out to super-delegates the risk of a backlash, and poach Obama's ill-begotten pledged-delegates.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Nobody wants to hear why all of the sudden she is the victim of a
bad system. That won't sell. She won't secure the popular vote or have the money for a bullshit media campaign. What Pledged delegates of Obama's were ill-gotten? You are full of it.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It sold when Obama's camp pushed it.
Or don't you remember when your side was the one insisting that the super-delegates respect popular will. That worked pretty well back then, and it's likely to work again for Hillary.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I never said what the Supers should do.
They get to vote their conscious. I think the supers-system is messed up, but it is what we have now. Work to change it next time. Quit crying this time.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. spam
you've posted this repeatedly. Unfortunately for you, SDs are NOT looking at the vote in MI. They are looking at the vote in FL but she's still behind, and it's very, very unlikely she can catch up. SD are still going for Obama. He got 2 today to her 1. He's now only 24 SD endorsements behind her. She won only 11 pledged delegates more than him in PA. And whether you like it or not, SDs ARE looking at pledged delegates.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Why should I have to type a new argument every time you Obama people make the same bad one?
So what if I reused the statistics part? It works here, and you guys are still running recycled "Delegate Math" trash from early march.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. And you are completely incapable of dealing with anyone who confronts
you with information that doesn't fit into your prefab hillworld. Furthermore, you're posting this as a new thread, not in response to something in another thread. It's spam, dear, pure and simple.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. It's being posted in response to all the math arguments that got posted in the last 24 hours
While some of the text in the middle is recycled, the text at the beginning and end cross applies the pledged-delegate stuff to the arguments being made now.

And there's no real reason to retype that material.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Once again, if the rules were different the campaigns would be different.
And then the results would be different.

Win or lose by the rules, or stay out of the game.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. A nice can of spam with a side of sour grapes.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. You're making me hungry
:9
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Math is racist?
Who knew? :cry:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Math is regularly spotted at Klan meetings and is up for promotion
to Super Grand Mega Cyclops or whatever their insane inbred whacko ranking system consists of.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Dude, math killed and ate the last cyclops for saying "good morning" to a Catholic
:scared:
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. The gerrymandering of political influence that cuts through minority communities is n/t
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You know, usually minority communities are gerrymandered to DIFFUSE influence
not the other way around.
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. And some of minority influence, especially around the valley, was diffused.
I'm not complaining that some minorities are given more influence. I'm complaining that traditionally marginalized minorities are being marginalized again by the pledged delegate system.
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. My dog ate my homework. eom
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bobbert Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Coming from soneone who probably thinks MI and FL were democratic
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Austinitis Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Read the bottom of the OP. Even adding Michigan is more democratic than the caucuses. n/t
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Blah blah blah...
The charts remind me of Perot in '92.

Most of the superdelegates are already committed and few will switch. There's little indication that the trend is switching in terms of who they're committing to. All else is empty conjecture.
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NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here's a suggestion:
Edited on Wed Apr-23-08 05:37 PM by NewHampshireDem
Why not tell us what makes you a tool?

Genetics?

Too much time a Free Republic?

You're paid to be one?

A brain tumor?

Seriously, *that's* the question on DU's mind ... not your made up bullshit and strawmen.

On edit: Stop spamming the internets with your crap ... yer cloggin up the tubes.

DKos, MyDD, and here? Attention-whore much?

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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. Sweet! You're absolutely right!
Maybe you should send this to Obama and he can work on changing it during his first or second term. I know that Hillary probably couldn't get any changes to the rules accomplished because she's been bullying the SD's and waging a national campaign against the evil Democratic Party and Democratic Nominee for months in an attempt to steal the election. After all, Obama is ahead in the popular vote so even by your logic HRC still loses.

But unfortunately these are the rules that the candidates agreed to and have campaigned for. Well campaigned for except for HRC's unethical behaviour regarding Michigan and Florida.

I dunno. How about we just admit that ITS OVER instead :wave:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. K& F'in R
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OnlyObama Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. LOL...a little late to change the DNC rules idiot.
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