So the Archie Bunker voters went for Clinton yesterday...

[sakura]

Do you really think they'll vote for Maude in the fall?

[JVS]

1. Don't be a meathead! They're gonna vote for McCain!

[sakura]

4. I was a little kid when that show was on...

Archie's yelling really used to upset me.

Of course, Archie's a lot like my dad...

[Shae]

35. actually some of them vote for Clinton now...

and vote for McCain later.

[AlinPA]

108. Yep. In PA, that is true. I know about 10 people who would do that and

it not about being pissed at Obama. There are a lot of them here.

[livetohike]

2. Welcome to DU!

:hi: I would vote for Maude. I loved that show :-).

[Poll_Blind]

3. Don't diss Archie, Edith would have been able to convince him to go for Obama by the end of the...

...episode. But when he got back to the bar he'd tell everyone he voted for Hillary. :)

PB

[Mezzo]

5. What an elitist thing for you to say. Telling

[sakura]

10. It's the media, in their need to categorize everything, that has called them Archie Bunker voters.

http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/04/18/why-do-archie-bunker-voters-love-hillary.aspx

http://firedoglake.com/2008/03/06/election-2008-crossing-the-archie-bunker-divide/

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=ahy3m.pVsbT0&refer=us



Who are you telling?

My mom?

She already knows who I'm voting for. And though she disagrees with it, she's okay with it. She also has a sense of humor. That seems rare for a Clinton supporter, at least around DU.

[Mezzo]

39. so you embrace teh media when you want, eh? Telling.

[scheming daemons]

40. So you embrace a candidate that appeals to bigots, eh? Telling...

[sakura]

47. Who are you telling?

[Bake]

67. "Telling" is an adjective here, not a verb.

As in, it "tells a lot about you ..."

Hard to be both elitist and dumb at the same time, but you're pulling it off.

Bake

[sakura]

74. Thanks for the insult.

That seems to be one thing your comments on this site have in common.

[Bake]

96. If you're going to look down your nose at the "Archie Bunkers"

You should expect to be insulted. That was an incredibly condescending OP. They used to be the bedrock of the Democratic Party. I think we need to try to get them back.

By the way, I can't help but laugh when an Obama supporter complains about insults. You people are the biggest bomb-throwers on DU.

Bake

[Leopolds Ghost]

105. Archie Bunker uused to be the bedrock of the Democratic Party? Is that why they voted for Nixon

Because of "that god-damned Martin Luther King and those rabble rousers"
as a great many ethnic blue-collar voters put it????????

Or maybe you identify with those sentiments. Telling.

NON-RACIST blue-collar voters (aka populists)
have always been the bedrock of the progressive
coalition. You can keep your self-hating Dems.

I just got lectured by a low-paid relative who
said that if I wanted to get ahead in life and
provide for my family I should abandon my chosen
profession because it "might not work out for me."

That is the Archie Bunker economic mentality in
a nutshell -- self-hating towards other low-paid
workers, admiring only those who are able to
"get ahead" and critical of those who fall behind,
and racist.

[Bake]

107. I'm not talking about fucking bigots, and you know it.

I'm talking about the characterization of all blue-collar "undeducated" workers as "Archie Bunkers."

And yeah, I remember when working class, union members were the bedrock of the party. It sure wasn't the fucking latte elitists ...

Bake

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. I detest latte sipping elitists. However, self-hating working class (black and white) side with them

Side with the elitists Without fail,

when they encounter real-life coalitions involving yuppies vs. working class interests.

Reagan was a genius in redefining the word "elitism" to mean

"Wealthy class traitors who oppose the working (white) man's
inherent right to ESCAPE the working class."

This causes all working class white voters who feel they have been placed in the wrong "caste"
(with those grubby minorities) to feel that ANYONE
who is obsessed with helping working class people qua
working class is, by definition, a class traitor who wants to keep the working (white) man down.

It was pure genius of anti-leftist framing,

Straight out of Horatio Alger and the anti-leftist, anti-populist
(or "right wing populist") scab mentality documented in Upton Sinclair's
"the Jungle".

Note: I am not a leftist, at least not in the sense of being a fan of government. I am a populist.

[sakura]

124. Apparently, we have a very different conception of what defines the Archie Bunker voter.

If you are claiming that racists are the bedrock of the democratic party, you have a warped view of things. There is a difference between a blue collar worker and an Archie Bunker. Your candidate is courting both. I'm not surprised you would resort to insults. It seems to be your response to every other post here. If you look at the posts I have written, I have not resorted to such tactics with anyone. A racist is a racist is a racist. If you are not one, you should not feel personally insulted. And if you ARE one, it's not an insult. It's an accurate characterization.

[SammyWinstonJack]

100. ...

:spray:

[Trajan]

137. Im a Clinton supporter ...

And I am an Obama supporter ...

One slightly more than the other ...

What seems rare in DU is a big tent Democrat who is unwilling to keep themselves from being drawn into the internecine warfare of the primary campaign ....

What is a good thing: Most of the Democratic electorate is not nearly as strident and egocentric as GD:P partisans who think their choice can be the only choice ...... FUCK that ....

[Mags]

65. the typical BO voter.

[Telly Savalas]

71. Who are you trying to win over with that attitude, asshole?

[Mags]

72. no one, the BO supporters have on blinders, I for sure am not trying to

wake them out of their dream.

[YOY]

You know Lady Godiva was a Free-eedom Rider

Goddamn that song is stuck in my head now...

[greguganus]

29. ...Songs that made the hit paraaaaaaaade!!!!!...n/t

[cali]

6. fuck, let's just continue with the stupid generalizations

and the demeaning comments about working class dems. that's really helpful.

[sakura]

11. My parents are working class, Cali

I don't think this comment demeans them. My dad has stated loudly and clearly that he will never, ever vote for Clinton. He was never the most liberal person, but he voted a straight democratic ticket until the mid nineties, until Bill began to disappoint him. Since then, he's been on the fence. Growing up, he seemed a lot like Archie Bunker to me-- and Archie did have his good side, you know-- just like Dad. My Archie Bunker would never vote for Hilary--not if a John McCain is around. But if the choice were Hilary or Barack, he'd hold his nose and vote for her.

[EFerrari]

28. Anyone that believes Archie will vote for Hillary is delusional.

Sure, he'd vote for her over Obama but never over McCain. Never.

[death to the DLC]

20. well, cali, when people continue

to vote against their own best interests, at some point, one just has to say, "You can't help those that won't help themselves."

To hell with them, the days of pandering are over. Truth will either reign supreme or we all die.

[QC]

30. Wow--I agree with you. It's the in thing to dog on The Great Unwashed, but

I think it might have something to do with all those elections we keep losing.

Apparently it makes some people feel better about themselves, though.

[sakura]

37. I think it's insulting to apply demographic categories to any group.

It's convenient, though, to pigeon-hole people. My OP referred to a categorization that has been made by the media multiple times, and just took that analogy a little further, for humor's sake. Did I mean to offend or demean? No, actually. If you strongly identify with Archie Bunker, I apologize.

[Shakespeare]

34. The demographics are what they are.

Hell, I'm not even an Obama supporter, and that's starkly clear to me--the voters for whom race was an issue (translation: don't want a black president) were overwhelmingly lower income, uneducated whites. I have one side of my family who falls into that demographic, and it's not a proud thing.

But nobody can talk about it without getting throttled around here. And I'm disgusted that we have so many of them in our party.

[robicon]

59. agreed

yes, I'm new here, but class warfare and cries of "racist!!!11!" or "sexist!!1" are ridiculous on this website.

vote the issues and leave the mindless drivel out of it.

[Bake]

68. Thanks for the note of sanity, cali.

:hi:

Bake

[Leopolds Ghost]

106. Voters for whom race was an issue (don't want a black prez) were overwhelmingly lower income whites.

Deal with it, cali.

What the f*ck do you want to say to working class whites if your candidate (whom I'd prefer over Clinton) REFUSES (as Tweety points out) to adopt a traditional DEmocratic message (populist, anti-Wall Street) and your favorite white folks REFUSE to give up their racism? People CONSTANTLY criticize working class BLACK people for their "cultural deficiencies", including wealthy blacks. It's considered acceptable discourse.

As Shakespeare said downthread:

"the voters for whom race was an issue (translation: don't want a black president) were overwhelmingly lower income, uneducated whites. I have one side of my family who falls into that demographic, and it's not a proud thing. But nobody can talk about it without getting throttled around here. And I'm disgusted that we have so many of them in our party."

[bevoette]

7. i have a truly honest question...

that i'm sure will get me pounded around here, but here goes...

what, exactly, would people say the difference is between:

rural, white, uneducated, working-class voters that vote for Clinton in blue states

and

rural, white, uneducated, working-class voters that vote for (insert republican here) in red states?



other than the 'yellow dog democrat' argument...what issues separate these voters?

[sakura]

31. That's a good question.

I've lived in rural parts of both red and blue states. The major difference I see is one of self-identification. Some people seem themselves as republican or democrat because that's what there parents were, or how they voted in the past. In terms of the issues, there often isn't a difference. That's been my experience, anyway.

[death to the DLC]

38. I live in SW Missouri

and if you are a redneck it's cool to be a Republican.

Economics has nothing to do with it. Those on disability, in debt with houses and cars they can't afford, and those that live paycheck to paycheck, Republicans all. They think it's still "in" - of course, this part of the country has always been 5 years behind the coasts.

[Carolina]

62. Congenital Dems and congenital repukes!

I see it here in the south a lot. People who are republican just because everyone else in the family is!

Add that to the lack of education, the vacuousness of the media and voila...

[juno jones]

95. You see religion being passed on much the same way.

From one uncritical generation to the next, going along because that's the way it's alway been.

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Perhaps Obama would have better luck appealing to rural, white uneducated POPULISTS, dammit

Who ALREADY oppose Clinton and everything she stands for,

and don't buy into the "socialism of fools" (racism and anti-semitism construed as "elites", wealthy white businessmen = "defenders of the working class white man's right to upward mobility").

Perhaps, just maybe, cali? Do you think?

[NoPasaran]

8. ...While Barry locked up the Meathead vote

[sakura]

12. Yes, he certainly did.

[JohnnyLib2]

9. In memory of all the good, hardworking Democrats who brought me up in that

tradition--please rethink what you are saying.

[sakura]

13. I was brought up in that tradition, too.

My point is that there are plenty of voters who would choose Hilary over Barack, who would also choose McCain over Hilary. Do you think otherwise?

[Mags]

66. I was brought up in the South, on a farm, very hard working

parents of 5 children ,who all went to College. You BO folks show the rest of the Country what real elitism is.

[RBInMaine]

14. I will say though, that we do have to work to get more "Archies" back.

White working class used to be a much stronger part of the Dem base, and they should vote with us the bread and butter issues. We CAN get many back (as Bill Clinton did in his races) by speaking better to their issues and values (yes, we CAN talk about religion and guns) AND by framing more effectively to them on the bread and butter issues (jobs, healthcare, and education).

[sakura]

21. I agree.

Bill Clinton did an excellent job bringing back working class voters. He gave them hope (which was continually disparaged by the press) and at the beginning, he really did help them out. But he also did a lot to discourage them. When my dad's job (he had a federal job) was downsized by the Clinton admin, he lost confidence. NAFTA made things even worse. In my dad's eyes, Bill went from being a person who could unite us, someone who really cared about the "regular" guy, to someone who "said one thing and did another." If Hilary were any other woman, I doubt my dad would vote for her in the general election. But the fact that she's Bill's wife makes it even worse.

[Bake]

69. Fuck 'em, they're white people. We don't need 'em.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Bake

[desi]

15. And Obama got what, 90-100% of the Louis Farrakhan

vote :shrug:

[sakura]

17. Are you a demographer?

I haven't heard that term bandied about in the press. Maybe you can share with us what constitutes the Farrakhan demographic.

[desi]

19. The opposite of the "Archie Bunkers" ?

yes there are racists and bigots who do not "look like Archie Bunker."

[sakura]

22. I never said there weren't. That's your inference.

But demographers don't define things in terms of opposites. Just how big is this Farrakhan bloc you mentioned? What are their characteristics (ones that can be described in positive terms-- not the opposite of another group)?

[desi]

32. And I never said that I was a "demographer"

maybe you can enumerate the so-called "Archie Bunker" types who "went with Hillary." Were they the gun toting bible thumpers from the hills of PA?

[sakura]

41. I didn't think up this term. But here are some links...

... you might find helpful. I look forward to your reply that fleshes out the characteristics of Farrakhan voters.


http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008...

http://firedoglake.com/2008/03/06/election-2008-crossin... /

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=ahy...

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. You are complaining about "black racists and bigots" who you must feel are holding you up.

After all, no "red blooded American" deserves to actually REMAIN working
class and uneducated. Their purpose in life is to sacrifice their life in
the mills so their CHILDREN can escape their own self-hated lifestyle,
thereby ensuring their heirs never identify with those who remain behind!

That is the Horatio Alger mindset, and it goes double for immigrants.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Any link for that claim?

:shrug:

I thought Ed Rendell was a Hillary Clinton supporter.

[Swamp Rat]

16. LOL!

:rofl:

[Algorem]

18. who did the George Jeffersons vote for?

[sakura]

24. Good question.

I'm guessing Gloria voted for Hilary, just to spite Meathead. After she grew a spine, that is.

[donheld]

25. Louise voted for Hillary, but told George she was voting Obama

George voted Obama and everybody in the high-rise new it.

[sakura]

27. Don't you mean DEEEELUX apartment in the sky? nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

114. George Jefferson voters don't matter... "they were already voting for Obama"

Everyone knows that the working class white racist vote (Nixon/Reagan Dems
who would vote Republican if they had any money) is MUCH more receptive
to swinging Obama's way and therefore more important.

Why, Obama could have gotten 30% of their votes if he had only tried!

Keep in mind that these people ONLY left the New Deal coalition because of
Welfare, Affirmative Action, and integration attempts... abandon those
"handouts" for the George Jeffersons of the world (and their "gangland friends" as the Willie Horton admeister styles it -- just like every
Italian knows a mafia member and every Irishman has a brawling drunk
relative) and we'll win them back EASILY and RESTORE the Broad-Based
Progressive Platform!!!!!

Won't we?

[donheld]

23. You must be a dingbat!

What are you smoking?
You really think Archie would vote for either of our candidates?

[sakura]

26. Actually, my Dad is voting for McCain.

He's my Archie. And I love him anyway!

[cbayer]

33. I really don't get your point.

Are you denigrating white, working class people? Perhaps you could elaborate.

[sakura]

42. I have elaborated.

Read the entire thread. I'd be happy to clarify if you have any questions outstanding after that.

[cbayer]

57. You said that Archie Bunker types voted for Clinton yesterday.

You linked to three articles that also used this term.

All three talked about how this is a strong base for Clinton that Obama is having trouble reaching.

You said your father was one of these types, but he would vote for McCain and never vote for Clinton. The definition in the articles you link does not match what you say about your father, therefore he is not an Archie Bunker type is you use the definition in your links.

Then you post a picture of Maude and ask will they vote for Maude in November. Are you using Maude to represent Clinton?

The whole OP and thread make no sense at all.

[sakura]

60. We all know what Archie Bunker types are.

The articles I quoted didn't define the term. They used a fictional figure so well understood by the American public that his chair is at the Smithsonian, to describe a bloc of voters. My Dad, in my view (and I do know him better than you, as far as I know), does fit the Bunker stereotype, as well as anyone does. Your argument is specious. Clinton may be reaching the Bunker base NOW, but how they will vote in November is still up for discussion. Hence the discussion.

[gaspee]

36. Nice

So if someone votes for Clinton, they're a racist and ignorant?

If someone disagrees with your choice then they are morally suspect?

Good to know.

[sakura]

Is that what my post said?

I thought it said that Clinton got the Archie Bunker vote. Do the two equate in your mind? Is Archie Bunker morally suspect in your mind?

Way to jump to conclusions.

[Beaverhausen]

45. You knew exactly what using the "Archie Bunker" reference means

don't play dumb. And please, this brand of "unity" and "hope" isn't what your candidate is all about.

[sakura]

49. What is your candidate about?

[gaspee]

54. Way to prevaricate

Look - you implied that Clinton got the racist vote. Do you not agree that racists are morally suspect?

You're really getting people to vote for Obama, there. Calling them ignorant racists *really* makes people change their minds! Go you!

And are you really that stupid? It sure seems that way.

And you know what?

Fuck this. I haven't been to DU in weeks because of people like you.

You all can have this place.

Good luck winning the general without half the party.

Let me know how that works out for ya!

[sakura]

58. Whose candidate said, "If you can't stand the heat..."

Yours, I think.

Goodbye and good luck.

[WinkyDink]

88. Your disingenuousness is not clever or cute.

[sakura]

90. If you have nothing to say, use an ad hominem remark.

Is that your strategy?

[SeattleGirl]

43. Unnecessary roughness!

There's no need to do this.

Your generalization of people sucks.

[sakura]

46. It's the media generalization.

Just like Reagan Democrat, Working Collar Vote, etc. And I agree. It does suck to make generalizations about people you don't know. Do you know me?

[ShortnFiery]

44. Oh geeze.

There's a hellofva lot more material to "smear" the Clintons and it's not all LIES. The Clintons BOTH have a rich history of corrupt and/or questionable behaviors. I'd bet money, there's new VALID evidence of their misbehaviors that the right wingers are holding close to the vest.

If HRC steals the Nomination it will be "a Clintonian blood-bath" ... they won't have political asses left by the end of the GE campaign and McCain will win in a landslide.

I know right wingers because I live among them ... they're "sweating bullets" at the mere notion of going up against Obama because the traditional attacks will fall flat.

I admire Maude. The sitcom character "Maude" had integrity. Therefore, HRC is no Maude. :evilgrin:

[sakura]

51. You're right. She's no Maude.

I admire Maude's character, too.

[knixphan]

50. Wasn't Barack explaining how Archies got hoodwinked?

By the GOP, nad lately the DLC...

[KoKo]

52. Actually it was alot of Bucks County Well Educated upscale folks who voted for her

in the PA suburbs. It would help if you had any idea of what you are talking about...:eyes:

[sakura]

53. Again, it was the media who have categorized some of Clintons

supporters as Archie Bunkers, Reagan Democrats, etc. That certainly doesn't mean all of her voters are, and it's not what I wrote. You might want to reread my extremely short OP again before drawing erroneous conclusions.

[KoKo]

73. Your reply to me was more than that Hack Post with photos....

n/t

[sakura]

84. My post was intended to elicit discussion.

Your post, on the other hand, seems to have been intended to insult.

[KoKo]

86. Yeah..so COOL...so Righteous....So Good..and you love that every time I post

I'm kicking your crap. :-(

[sakura]

92. Are you replying to another post?

You really are not making any sense, o mighty crap-kicker.

[Leopolds Ghost]

119. Thus proving that WHITE RACISM and admiration of Clinton's elitism is the real issue here.

There are still plenty of working class, white POPULISTS. they voted for Obama.

It's the self-hating "Nixon Dems" who resent black people trying to
move ahead of them in the (stalled) upward mobility pyramid
that are the issue of the OP.

They added to Hillary's total in counties like York, Chester and
Allegheney where a NAFTA proponent should have no chance.

[Blue_Tires]

55. archie would be part of that 16 (!) percent that voted for ron paul

lol

[backscatter712]

56. You hit pretty close to the mark, sakura.

Must have touched a nerve to get the Clintonistas out in a display of poutrage here.

[sakura]

77. Sure looks like it.

Thanks for the support!

[VotesForWomen]

61. you mean like those white folks in UT an WY who voted for O? nt

[sakura]

80. I don't remember writing that white=archie bunker

Perhaps you can elaborate. What does an older white man from the Bronx have to do with people from those two states? Have you been to UT or WY? Did all the people there seem the same to you? Did they all remind you of Archie?

[hell-bent]

63. So did the George Jefferson vote go for Obama?

:rofl: I see someone else asked that question. Sorry.

[sakura]

79. That's okay!

I think the "successful, black business man who came from nothing" type would be attracted to Obama. As would someone like the independent, free-thinking Weezie.

[Jamastiene]

64. Stifle it, sakura

[sakura]

75. Oh, Jamasteine!

Sorry. It's hard to get the Edith screech down, but I tried. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

[Dr Fate]

70. If Clinton/media can convince them that a mixed race man is "the real racist"...

...and that Obama is "the real elitist"...

...then McCain/Media will have NO PROBLEM getting them to turn against "Maude" with any half-made up talking points they can muster- you nailed it.

Team Hillary has placed bets on a very fickle bunch- and I agree with you- a large number of them will EASILY be convinced to switch back to their GOP voting pattern- ironically it will be with the same tactics and talking points Hillary is using on them now.

[sakura]

76. An earlier poster said the that the character of Maude was a person of integrity...

... and I agree. So I guess the analogy breaks down at that point. The "real" Maude would never stoop to the tactics Hillary has used.

[Dr Fate]

78. I agree- but perceptions are all that matters with most swing-voters.

If the media can fool swing-voters into perceiving Obama as a pro-terrorist, racist elitist, then portraying Hillary as an out of touch feminist stuck in the early 70's (AKA Maude) wont be too difficult.

[sakura]

81. Agreed.

It's sad, though. What percent of voters do you think vote with their emotions only?

[Armstead]

82. I'll recommend this one. It's a point to ponder

"I'll vote for that gal over that commie negro. But if I can choose an old white guy, gimme the white guy."

[sakura]

83. Thanks.

[WinkyDink]

85. Are you asserting that any---ANY---vote not for Obama is RACISM??

Oh, but that doesn't work in REVERSE, does it? Noooo; Oprah is for Obsma because he's....The One. Riiiiiight.

[KoKo]

87. THIS POSTER is NOT to blame for that "impression you have" it's MOST OF THEM! n/t

[WinkyDink]

91. Do you live in PA? I do, and have, for 58 years. We're no more racist than any other group.

Obama supporters sure are unhappy over this loss.

[Jed Dilligan]

98. "No more racist than any other group"

Very telling choice of words.

[WinkyDink]

120. Well, what? I'm supposed to say there are NO racists in PA? And don't give ME any grief.

Unless you can say how YOU ALSO voted for the Rev. Jesse Jackson, taught Black Literature in a de facto all-white h.s., was thrilled to meet the Rev. Sharpton in a NY restaurant, and so on.

Recognizing the reality of America is not "telling", unless you define "telling" as "observant".

[Jed Dilligan]

122. You should get out more.

The world has changed while you were in Pennsylvania hanging out with your racist friends.

[sakura]

125. There are racists in every state.

What's sad is that your candidate has defined a strategy that seeks their support.

[sakura]

89. Uh.... no. Do you jump to conclusions regularly, or is this a special, one-time-only event?

The media has characterized one demographic as Archie Bunker like. This demographic was predicted to vote for Clinton, and apparently they did. Does this mean all Clinton voters are Archie Bunker-like? No. And are some Obama voters racist? I'm sure that's true, just as some Clinton voters are elitist. Welcome to the real world.

[WinkyDink]

93. GMAB. You posted expressly to imply racism, and now are trying to disavow that intent.

You have clearly failed.

[sakura]

94. Whose governor stated that some white people were not ready to vote for a black man?

I'm not disavowing anything. What I am disagreeing with is the contention that "Some" is the same as "All." I can't speak to whether or not PA residents are more racist than any other state's residents. I certainly hope not. But again, it's moot, as that was not my point. Again, "some" is not the same as "all." Not a difficult thing to understand, really. But maybe you're deliberately trying to misunderstand.

[WinkyDink]

118. Just as a governor is only one man with an opinion?

[amelia]

97. Do you really think that you should be insulting people who are going to vote in the fall? Rude post

[sakura]

126. I really don't have a problem identifying a racist as a racist.

The days when the democratic party courted racists ended a long time ago. Until recently, that was the republican's domain. But then Hilary a shameful democratic party tradition.

[amelia]

99. Rude Post! You shouldn't belittle and insult people who will vote in the fall unless you can win

without them. You aren't thinking of the repurcussions.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

102. The point of the OP is that they're going to vote for McCain. And I agree.

These are DINOs who have voted repuke in the general since Reagan.

[sakura]

128. Don't you find it distasteful...

No, nauseating, shameful, unbelievable, that a person who wants to be president deems it necessary to court the racist vote? I think we can win without that particular demographic, thank you. And if that is who we have to take into the party to win, then we're no longer the party we once were.

[Marrah_G]

101. self-delete- not fucking worth it

May your pizza delivery come soon.

[bigtree]

103. more division here

. . . she actually got a broad spectrum of votes from many segments of the population.

But, you go on . . .

[Armstead]

104. But she's pandering to the Archie Bunker vote

Obnama as "elitist"....Nuke Iran....I love guns....Can't stand the Heat?....Obama's "Whining"......Fear Bin Laden....etc.

She's aiming for the very voters who would see Maude as a loudmouth liberal feminist...And will likely see Hillary in the same way when compared to Mccain in Nov.

[bigtree]

112. both candidates are 'pandering'. Clinton's appealing to all segments of voters.

I really don't expect for you to notice or care though.

[Armstead]

123. I notice that she is a chamelion, as usual.

She is consistently whatever she thinks her audience of the moment wants her to be. "You want me to be a feminist? Okay."..."You want me to be a social conservative? Okay, I can do that too."

Moreover, even though you are a Clinton supporter, I can't fathom how you can ignore the damage she did with her tirades about Obama being an "elitist."

It was a distortion of something she basically agrees with, and it riled up peopel like me who do not see the basic truth Obama was saying as being elitist....yes he said it poorly, but do you really disagree that one big reason Democrats have been losing for so long is because we get skunked on God Guns and Gays wedge issues?

Although her intention was to damage Obama, her amplification of the Rove message in that case did damage to the very notion of Democratic liberalism as being elitist.

When one tried to play both ends against the middle, eventually one ends up eating their own tail....Okay, bad metaphor but... :)

[sakura]

131. So appealing to the racists in our country is okay with you?

Are you really saying that it's okay to do whatever it takes to win? Even if it means betraying what our party stands for?

[sakura]

129. Read the post, bigtree.

The Archie Bunker vote is one demographic out of many Hilary courted. It is you who are deciding it defines all of her supporters.

[ClericJohnPreston]

110. Wow

What a rational analysis your post has brought to the issues of the day.

Oh, thats right, this is the psychotic cult feeding frenzy when you have nothing to discuss. It must suck being part of a cult, huh?

[sakura]

132. I wouldn't know...

...but you're the Cleric, aren't you? Maybe you can share what it's like in your organization.

[Texas Hill Country]

113. this is why the mid west has issues with the Dems... arrogant BS.

[Leopolds Ghost]

115. Arrogant against whom? You guys spew "cultural deficiencies" of BLACK working class constantly

People CONSTANTLY criticize working class BLACK people for their "cultural deficiencies", including wealthy blacks. It's considered acceptable discourse.

"Elites" in your frame of reference are nothing more than another word for "self-hating rich people who want to close off the working class white ethnic's INHERENT right to advance OUT of the working class, leaving the poor behind." Black people must "get in line" and wait their turn for a NEW permanent pool of unemployed workers (as prescribed by Clinton and Greenspan to counteract inflation; look it up) to emerge. Someone even more detested and acceptable to criticize.

You merely resent the fact that it's still OK for rich people, liberals
and conservatives, to criticize working class white ethnics. You feel
that working class midwestern white ethnics should NOT EXIST. They should
all be livin' the dream. Others are less deserving and can remain working
class if they "choose" but most whites no longer WANT that sort of "work".

That is the self-hating mentality. And it is not just in the Midwest, as
you well know from looking at Hillary's returns in your hated elite areas.

[WinkyDink]

117. Bizarre.

[Leopolds Ghost]

121. It is, isn't it? That is the self-hating Horatio Alger mentality of many striving Dems..deal with it

Many upper-class and middle-class black people have the same internalized self-hatred toward their fellow working class man, whom they consider "trifling" and unable to get ahead. It is not usually compounded by a profound dislike of a competing ethnic group, however.

Do some reading on the subject yourself, mate.

[sakura]

133. Thanks, you've said it so much better than I could.

:D

[IndianaGreen]

127. As did Edith, Gloria, and Meat Head.

Low info voters all!

[jillan]

130. And once again people that don't support Obama are being called racists.

You guys really need to come up with another talking point.
This racist bs is getting old....and boring....yawn!

[sakura]

134. No, people who are racists are being called racists.

There's a subtle difference there. A is a subset of B. A is not equal to B. I can draw you a Venn diagram if you like.

[loyalsister]

135. God'll get you for that

:nuke:

I don't see Maude aligning herself with Clinton.

[Bonobo]

136. This is a hilarious (and brilliant) post. K/R

Did you see this in a dream?

;)

[sakura]

138. Thanks!

No dream-- just reality. I grew up with an Archie-- I know how he thinks.

[Bonobo]

139. Check your pms