The Dean Deception

[DaveSZ]

I was thinking of making a contribution to Dean's new organization, but the more I read about his record as governor, the more I question what Dean truly stands for...

:(


http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml


Dean slashed millions of dollars from all sorts of social programs, from prescription drug benefits for Medicare recipients and heating assistance for poorer Vermonters to housing assistance funds. In defending his cuts to social programs, Dean said, "I don’t think I have to shy away from that just because I’m supposed to be a liberal Democrat."8

Throughout the 1990s, Dean’s cuts in state aid to education ($6 million), retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million), health care ($4 million), welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million), Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million) and more, amounted to roughly $30 million. Dean claimed that the cuts were necessary because the state had no money and was burdened by a $60 million deficit.9

But during the same period, Dean found $7 million for a low-interest loan program for businesses, $30 million for a new prison in Springfield, VT, and he cut the income tax by 8 percent (equivalent to $30 million)–a move many in the legislature balked at because they didn’t feel comfortable "cutting taxes in a way that benefits the wealthiest taxpayers."10 By 2002, state investments in prisons increased by nearly 150 percent while investments in state colleges increased by only 7 percent.11

-snip-

"Dean’s attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," said Annette Smith, director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment. "He’s destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he’s refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he’s made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke."34 Tom Elliot, the former political director of the Vermont Sierra Club said that "Howard Dean’s environmental record in Vermont is toxic."35 The club has never endorsed Howard Dean in his five campaigns for governor.

[Taverner]

1. Oh god this again?

I would post the rebuttal to these old arguments, but I've did that way too many times during the primary.

[arcos]

2. yes, suddenly I feel I'm on October again.... n/t

[dsc]

3. I have addressed this article on several occasions

The writers of it are either the sloppiest journalists on planet earth or utter liars.

[JHBowden]

4. Not necessary.

Regardless of what you say is true or false, we don't need to fight over this stuff anymore.

[mzmolly]

5. Have you read what the group said about Kucinich ?

:shrug:

Here ya go. The Dennis Kucinich phenomenon - Candidate of the left?

http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/kucinich.shtml

[no name no slogan]

60. Good point mzmolly

They lost credibility when they couldn't even get the date right for the "Prayer for America" speech (it was Feb 2002, NOT Feb 2003). Since it's the speech that got him in front of the people who drafted him to run for president, it's kind of a major thing. Oops.

[mzmolly]

73. Right you are!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

6. The Progressive Case For Dean ... again.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0811-09.htm

The article you posted contains many mistruths. Dean is a centrist, true, but he's a "fighting centrist" and that's why many lefties support him.

[janx]

7. Dean's organization is called Democracy for America, not

Socialism for America.

So yeah, I think you made a mistake.

[mzmolly]

8. Excellent point!

:hi:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

10. Don't worry they shall show up soon

They never miss a chance to do so.

[Zomby Woof]

23. they NEVER "bashed" Dean

They told the truth about him, always in reasonable and factual manners. They never got ruffled or lost their cool. They posted well-researched and fact-based pieces.

Now for me, I bashed the hell out of the worthless sonofabitch, and would do so again. :evilgrin:

I don't care much for his rotting corpse stinking up this forum again.

[madfloridian]

24. That may be funny to you.

I don't find it that humorous. He is not running, he is not a threat. I think it is wrong to post ugly things about any of our candidates.

[Zomby Woof]

25. And I think it is wrong to stay quiet in the face of absurdity

The relentless Dean-boosting some of you engage in does get tiresome, but I would never suggest it is 'wrong', this being a wide-open forum.

[madfloridian]

26. Do I hurt you when I do it?

Do I ever attack you? I will continue to "boost" him because he is the one who opened the dialogue on this evil bunch in the WH.

I have been the route of being insulted, and I have been called tiresome and idolatrous.....but you know what, Zomby? I have had so many people write me or let me know that they appreciate what I post about Dean. I have been told also that I am kind and intelligent in the way I post about issues.

One night I was told here that I never posted anything else. I promptly listed by day's posts on many topics. There was nothing else to be said.

This place got so ugly about him that I decided I would never again back down. Now, may I make a suggestion....if the post looks like it is a Dean "boost"....just avoid it.

If you like Dean bashes, then by all means take part. Whatever makes you happy.

[JustaSingleDad]

42. I really miss Dean! Are we better off now? HELL NO!

The "TRUST US, WE KNOW BETTER" cabal, cut Dean out, and left us with an empty suit, without a beating heart. Sorry, I will vote for anyone we end up with, but there is no enthusiasm in it for me.. Many will disagree this is just my opinion..

[Guaranteed]

27. What is it about him, exactly, that you don't like?

Is it his righteousness? By which I mean, the fact that he's right all the time, and has the nerve to speak up?

Do you prefer more of the spineless politico types?

[madfloridian]

28. Shhh....hh...it is the "boosts" we give him.

It is not based on the person or his merits....he does not like the boosting we do.

[Zomby Woof]

80. because he is right-center Repuke

He is as much a Democrat as Lieberman.

41. It is so -o-o stupid to boost Democrats, isn't it?

:wtf:

[Zomby Woof]

81. Dean is a shitty Dem

About as bad as Lieberman. It cracks me up to witness such mass self-deception about his 'populism' and 'grassroots'. But hey, I never said you all don't have the right to self-delusion, for this is America...

The bitterness of his failed campaign will never die.

[madfloridian]

86. Here is quote from Dean to make you feel better.

“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.” ~ Howard Dean.

[Capn Sunshine]

57. I'm glad that there is some growth occuring

We've gone from "traitorous scum" to "not wrong". What I want to know is how a tireless campaigner for Kerry and former presidential candidate who is singlehandedly sparking the otherwise moribund crowds at Kerry Rallies earned such contempt as to be referred to as a stinking corpse, when the utter intellectual bankruptcy of such a position is apparent to all. I doubt that there's any of that axe left to grind, yet the stubs and shards of it are being heaped upon the stone yet again.

[ibegurpard]

78. Some rude Dean supporter hurt his feelings at some point?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

84. "rank idiocy" New one, ZW.

That is a good one.

[XanaDUer]

31. Hi!

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

82. hey there!

They all came crawling back to disrupt and spam, it seems.

[dsc]

37. Baldly false

Both of those posters got caught mistating facts on numerous occasions. Nick claimed that Dean reinstituted the death penalty in Vermont (Vermont doesn't have the death penalty), jailed a person for contempt of court (only judges can do that), raised the sales tax (he had kept it level), increased property taxes (he had cut them), and the list goes on. BLM repeatedly claimed that Gary Hart said Dean was unfit to be President but never sited a quote, claimed Dean had endorsed Jeffords when he hadn't, claimed Dean had conducted a push poll when her link was at best ambiguous, claimed a link on Hart had been scrubbed in some sort of Dean inspired plot when I found it with one search, and the list goes on.

[ibegurpard]

33. Their work is done

Don't see them around much anymore, do you?

[Lefty Pragmatist]

11. "We've got a bigger problem now."

Cmon, kids, keep your eyes on da prize.

[DFLforever]

12. Then don't make a contribution.

I'm sure DFA will survive without your donation and confusion.

[69KV]

13. The International Socialist Review?

Should have been a Trotskyite warning on that link :puke:

[wyldwolf]

14. I have ZERO respect for your source... why not quote NewsMax?

[ibegurpard]

32. Oh please

It came in quite handy when kneecapping Dean was the order of the day.

[wyldwolf]

36. So?

I didn't accept a socialist website editorial then and I don't now.

Sites like that are the left's NewsMax.

[bitchkitty]

98. Why?

Something wrong with being a socialist?

[wyldwolf]

99. socialists have their own agenda like every political group does

So of course they're going spin or mislead regarding a candidate who doesn't support them.

[madfloridian]

15. Here is a very fair article from 2002 to see his thinking.

He was working with a Republican legislature who did NOT want to raise taxes in a crisis. Dean had raised the limit on who could qualify, and now he was being forced into decisions.
Another article is forthcoming.

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/41141

SNIP..."MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean took office in 1991 in the middle of a budget crisis, and he drew on that experience Tuesday when he presented a new state budget designed to pull Vermont through the current economic slowdown."

SNIP..."According to the current estimates, Dean told lawmakers, Vermont will have to make do with nearly $70 million less than it thought it would have for next year. The budget Dean presented did not include any tax increases. However, he made it clear to lawmakers that they will have to make some painful cuts if they do not find new revenues.

The governor has been urging the Legislature to increase the tax on cigarettes to help cover the growing cost of health care programs that Vermont has expanded in recent years. Lawmakers balked at his request last year, so this year Dean recommended cuts in those programs in order to keep his proposed budget in balance....."

They refused to raise taxes, so he presented a deal.

Your post is really all we need right now to help ease tensions. Thanks so much. Dean must be doing something right to need to be attacked again.

[WilliamPitt]

16. I've never seen *this* before

:)

[madfloridian]

18. Could you clarify the cryptic *this*? Thanks.

?

[WilliamPitt]

20. This = the link posted

It was posted about forty billion times on this forum over the course of the past few months. Pretty straightforward.

[madfloridian]

21. I thought you meant that. Thanks.

.

[madfloridian]

17. Another article about the Medicaid. Makes good sense if you research.

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/41121

SNIP...."In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.

Medicaid is the state-run program that uses both state and federal money to provide benefits to the poor and disabled. Over the past several years Dean has expanded the programs by allowing participation by Vermonters with incomes higher than the federal guidelines."

SNIP..."That’s what occurs when the state and federal government don’t pay enough to hospitals and doctors to cover the cost of treating patients on Medicaid and Medicare, the health care program for the elderly. Doctors and hospitals must then charge more to patients with insurance coverage, driving up insurance costs."

Remember he was working with lawmakers who refused to raise taxes for social programs. Think about it....think about the options. He had tried to help those who had fallen through the cracks, and he is getting screwed for it.

[CTLawGuy]

19. International Socialist Review???

NEXT!

[madfloridian]

22. Did Dean make the news today or something...needed to be bashed?

You know he is not running anymore. He is working his butt off for Kerry and the Democrats 6 days a week, and traveling the 7th. I just get so mad when people start this again.

So...did he make a difference today? Is that it?

There is another side to the Sierra Club stuff, and I am too tired tonight to find my records and post them. Maybe someone else could cover that issue.

Hey, he is not even in the running for VP....so fight over the ones who are, OK?

This is all so silly and stupid. Oh, and check out the two articles I posted about the budget and Medicaid.

[madfloridian]

29. Hope someone reads the two articles I posted above.

They show how Dean did his best to work with the GOP lawmakers who never wanted to raise taxes....only cut them.

They explain a lot. I have lots more, but that is for an earlier time in the evening.

[Guaranteed]

30. This piece should be titled "The Price of a Balanced Budget."

11 years in a row. One HELL of an accomplishment in itself, particularly through the recession toward the end.

The worst thing about what he did were the tax cuts- although I'd like to see how the numbers stacked up as far as the lower/middle classes vs. the upper class.

As far as his not being an environmentalist, to be honest with you, I couldn't give less of a shit. I knew full well that the man is a moderate. He makes up for that by speaking up and holding strong to what he believes in. It doesn't do you much good to be a liberal, which Dean IS, if you jump ship every time things get hot, especially when it comes to really big issues, such as the war.

[Still_Loves_John]

34. I never really understood the Dean thing

Dean was never one of the most liberal candidates, even among the more mainstream ones. I think the reason that anyone was attracted to him was because he was angry and would insult Bush, which helped channel lots of the anger that Democrats were feeling. That's why I never liked Dean-he was nothing but fuming, no real liberalism.

Then again, he lost, and we should stop beating a dead horse. I think some of us just have resentment left over from when Dean was on top and we had to deal with his supporters all the time.

[madfloridian]

35. I will continue to post news about him as a Democrat.

Unless the moderators say we can no longer post about Dean. Then they will have to stop letting folks post about anyone other than the nominee and VP choice. That could get very boring.

You do not have to read the posts.

[seaglass]

38. I can understand it, he wasn't a bad guy and he filled a need for

some, he just wasn't someone I would want as a president - though of course I would have voted for him over the current resident. I won't get into my thoughts on some of his supporters.

This Dean stuff is just getting really boring, pro and con. I have taken MFs advice to ZW, I rarely click on the posts anymore, they sink fast enough.

[dsc]

39. so how did you come to read this?

After all it was pretty clearly a thread about Dean. The Dean deception or did you think it was Jimmy Dean or John Dean?

[seaglass]

56. I assume you know the difference between rarely and never?

Sometimes my resistance weakens but for the most part I've done pretty good avoiding the threads. Thanks for your concern.

And yes, I do return to threads that I post on.

[dsc]

100. I just find it odd that someone who rarely reads these threads

would have searched this out. Somehow I suspect that if I decided to search we would have to get into a discussion of the meaning of rare.

[madfloridian]

59. Yes, he did fill a "need for some." A need for truth and real words.

QUOTE"This Dean stuff is just getting really boring, pro and con."

The DLC/DNC word games and spin get tiring after a while. That was subtle putdown....the "need" thing. Cute.

Just avoid the threads, as you say.

[WI_DEM]

40. then don't make your donation

I guess they will get along without you.

[Radical Activist]

43. You just now figured out he's a moderate?

The entire campaign was based on Dean letting many of his supporters think he is a liberal, but in fact he never was.

The same thing is happening with his new organization. I heard Dean on air america radio say his new organization will support moderates and maybe some who aren't Democrats. So, why do people keep describing this as an organization to support progressive candidates? It isn't! I don't know if Dean's followers are just too stubborn to reject their false impression of Dean as a progressive, or if the people who work for Dean are still busy sending out false signals to liberals.

[dsc]

44. He repeatedly stated he wasn't a liberal

you are telling stories when you say he didn't.

[Radical Activist]

46. Except when he was in front of liberal groups

Did he sound moderate at the Take Back America conference last year, or in front of any other liberal group? No. I respected Lieberman more because Lieberman would go in front of a union audience and defend his stance on Free Trade. Dean just changed his stance and tried to be all things to all people.

If Dean was so up front about not being a liberal, then why did so many of his supporters think he was a liberal fighting against the DLC Democrats?

[dsc]

47. that is baldly false

I have heard his speak several times, all on TV admittedly, but on every single occasion without any exception he has stated he wasn't a liberal. Every single last occassion without exception.

[Radical Activist]

49. You're dreaming and I'll prove I'm right

Here is a link to his speech at the Take Back America conference in 2003.

http://www.ourfuture.org/docUploads/dean_062303_131529.pdf

It was a huge and important audience of liberals in the early part of the primary. Nowhere does Dean call himself moderate or conservative. He does start the speech by mentioning Paul Wellstone and using his line about being from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Wellstone used that to indicate he was a liberal and Dean used the same line to give the same impression. Progressive Democrats already knew that line and they knew what it meant. If Dean is a moderate it was a blatant act of deception to repeat that line over and over again during the primary, which he did.

On page 2 he mentions lobbyists referring to him as "this progressive Democrat." Dean does not deny or correct that assertion.

He later criticizes the DLC for trying to be like Republicans, which obviously implies Dean will be something other than a moderate DLCer like he used to be.

Dean sounds very liberal throughout this speech. If you tell me the man who gave that speech was a moderate then I'm telling you the man who gave that speech was a FAKE.

[madfloridian]

52. All of his speeches are still up at C-Span.

I would like to know your definition of "liberal" and "republican". Hate to tell you but you are sounding very strange about liberal being bad or something.

Yes, he did call the DLC the Republican wing.....and they are.

I know that speech, he gives full credit to the Wellstones, and he sounds like a thinking man who knows his party has screwed up royally.

[Still_Loves_John]

64. Umm...do you not understand his argument at all?

"I would like to know your definition of "liberal" and "republican". Hate to tell you but you are sounding very strange about liberal being bad or something.
Yes, he did call the DLC the Republican wing.....and they are.
"

He's not attacking Dean for being liberal, or for fighting the DLC. He's attacking Dean for PRETENDING to be liberal when he was just as conservative, if not more so, than the rest of the candidates. He refrenced the DLC because Dean pretended to be crusading against them when, ideologically, he had very few differences with them.

[madfloridian]

65. Dean WAS DLC when he was governor. Media called him liberal.

I am not stupid, I do understand what the poster is doing in reference to Dean's stances. He is NOT well-informed on Dean's stances on all issues, and he is speaking things that were parroted around here during the primaries.

Dean is the ONLY candidate aside from Kucinich who made it clear he opposes our nation's new policy of remapping the middle east and preemptively attacking nations. Dean called them out on the war vote and their ties to corporations. Those were his two main issues. They are also mine.

Has Kerry come out against imperialism? No. Did Clark? No, he did not. Edwards' office made it clear to me he is not against remapping the middle east.

Did you see my post that it was the MEDIA who has called Dean liberal? Did you see that?? Dean only called himself a "social liberal." If you find proof of Dean's masquerading as a liberal, I will concede. HOWEVER, be sure it is Dean pretending...not just another candidate or the media doing it.

"Since the time of Thomas Paine and John Adams, our founders implored that we were not to be the new Rome. We are not to conquer and suppress other nations to submit to our will. We were to inspire them."
Howard Dean, 2003

[Still_Loves_John]

67. But see, you're misrepresenting his argument again

He is not attacking Dean for being liberal. He is attacking Dean for allowing people to believe he was a liberal when he wasn't. In your posts you seem to be defending against a guy saying Dean was too liberal, but thats not what he's saying.

[madfloridian]

68. Please read this, and then ask the poster to prove what he says.

Please have the poster you are defending show me where Dean allows himself to be thought of falsely. People say it all the time, but they never prove it. He is for change, both leftish and rightish, and I think people should prove when they say something.

Read this from mzmolly's post:
“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.” Howard Dean.

[Still_Loves_John]

70. he has given you evidence!

He used the "Democratic wing" line all the time, frequently cited Paul Wellstone, and called his other opponents "Bush-lite."

[madfloridian]

71. Right....the DLC is more Republican.

Paul Wellstone was a progressive for change, he was not known as a liberal....as a progressive. Dean is forming his organization on supporting progressive Democrats.

I do not understand your obsession with labeling this guy. He is not to be labeled.

I think you two do need to do more research on Dean if you are going attack him. He is conservative, moderate, progressive, and liberal...all rolled into one.

So am I, and so is my husband. This "liberal" deal which the media gave him is getting out of control on these posts.

“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.” ~ Howard Dean.

[Still_Loves_John]

75. arg

"Right....the DLC is more Republican."

I don't even understand what you mean by this.

"Paul Wellstone was a progressive for change, he was not known as a liberal....as a progressive. "

Don't play with semantics--progressive and liberal are interchangable.

And you didn't respond to any of my points. Someone who calls his opponents Bush lite and says he's from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party is obviously trying to paint themselves as liberal.

[madfloridian]

76. No, you are playing word games.

I have responded. Read my posts. I responded that Dean did not paint himself as liberal...others did.

Have you read the DLC site? It is www.ndol.com
Read it. Read the PPI which is part of them...they share the same office and phone, they are one.

Read it. The members themselves may not all be so conservative, but the founders were. They began as a corporately funded think tank, not people oriented. The leaders still are. Al From and Will Marshall are 100% for the Iraq war.

You really are into this Dean stuff, this anti-Dean stuff. You are trying to use the word liberal, which Democrats should embrace, to smear a good man. You are stretching this out by saying I am not responding to the other guy, so why don't you let him speak for himself.

Read what Dean said:
“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.”~ Howard Dean.

[dansolo]

95. You should read up on Paul Wellstone

People who like to attack Dean always take Paul Wellstone's quote out of context. Paul Wellstone, when he described himself as from the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party", was NOT talking about being a liberal. He was complaining about the fact that the Democrats were becoming beholden to the same monied interests that were supporting the Republicans. Dean had it correct. The problem was with all of the liberals who really don't have a clue about what Paul Wellstone was fighting for.

[madfloridian]

96. They wanted us to be proud to be Democrats again.

Dean once said that if the party called him liberal, then they truly had moved too far to the right.

[no name no slogan]

101. No, Paul was known as a LIBERAL, especially at home in MN

Paul invoked the names of HHH and FDR all the time on the campaign trail. He was not afraid to be called a liberal, and a progressive. I worked on a couple of his campaigns and he was more than happy to attach himself to the liberal legacy of Hubert Humphrey, JFK and others.

As a matter of fact, his vanquished 1990 opponent ran against him in 1996 and tried to paint him as "ultra-liberal Paul Wellstone". It probably worked too, but then Paul beat him by an even larger margin than in 1990.

Paul was both a liberal and a progressive. It is possible to be both.

However, I still don't understand the purpose of this thread. I thought everybody knew this stuff about Dean already. And at this point, who the hell really cares?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

69. How do "liberals" sound? Like they are telling the truth?

Dean is a progressive democrat. Look up the meaning. It does not matter at all to me whether you like him or any of us. It matters that when you say things like this, you use correct terminology and not misinterpret progressive.

I do not fit a political pattern, and I have never fit one. I resent being boxed and labeled, as I am a thinking person who is NOT tied to party by ideology.

That is why my hubby and I supported and still support Dean/DFA. He does not think in labels and boxes.

This is exactly why so many Dean supporters are struggling about voting Democrat. Because many of them were not to begin with nor are they now. I was, and I guess I still am.... maybe. That is up to our nominee.

[madfloridian]

50. I just made an offer to you to give you a link to a site.

Check my post above. Take time to read what he is about, what he says, and not just spout rhetoric which you have heard others say.

Most of his supporters know what he stands for, and all of us are familiar with his history of governing as a centrist in VT.

[Radical Activist]

55. Half the Dean supporters I talked to insisted he's a liberal

the other half insist all his supporters know he's not. Just read through the posts on this topic and you'll see I'm right. Dean was happy to give the impression he was liberal to liberals during the primary, and the take back america speech is a good example of that.

I did research Dean early on. That's why I didn't support him when many of my progressive friends did because they were led to believe that Dean represented their progressive ideals. The fact that Dean's supporters have so many different ideas about what Dean is and believes is an indication of how the campaign message was delivered.

[madfloridian]

58. Please point to the posts where someone invokes the liberal tag.

Boy, are you falling for the Republican Noise Machine labels.

I am reading the book right now, and I thought I knew a lot. I did not realize how deeply ingrained this word hatred it. You need to read it or reread it.

There is nothing wrong with the word liberal anyway. One can be several things at once, though. Quit falling for the spin.

[madfloridian]

45. Oh, good grief. In many interviews he said was a fiscal conservative.

And that he was for socially "liberal" causes. Before you start this bashing, please review his speeches and comments and transcripts.

There are sites which have them linked all the way back to last year.

Get to know someone's stances before you bash.

[Radical Activist]

48. I wish more of his supporters reviewed that

If its so obvious that Dean wasn't liberal why do we STILL have many people on DU insisting that Dean was holding up the liberal wing of the party. Why did he steal Paul Wellstone's line about being from the democratic wing of the party and attack the moderates in the DLC?

Dean stopped making comments about being moderate or a fiscal conservative for several months of the campaign, while he used the language of a progressive to get progressive voters. I did notice a lot of articles start to say he was a moderate again in December when Dean started moving back to the middle. After that things went downhill.

[madfloridian]

51. The media called him a liberal, and he IS socially a liberal.

The media defined him completely and thoroughly while building him up until they helped bring him down.

I never agree with any politician on everything, but I despise to see them being misrepresented.

His group works closely with the Wellstone foundation, and he did NOT steal Wellstone's line. He gave him credit when he used it.

Everyone now is spouting Dean's words, and they do not give credit.

This is all so silly. Let's stop it.

[madfloridian]

53. Who says that consistently?

Who is it here that calls Dean a liberal and says he is holding up the liberal wing? I have not seen that.

54. because the Democratic party isn't all that liberal

so it's possible to not be a liberal and be the liberal part of the Democratic party?

To give an example of what I'm thinking of.
Boulder Colorado thinks of itself as being a liberal place.
Yet some of the positions that they think are liberal end up not being so.
There is a huge open space movement to keep the wild in the city.
Nice tree-hugging, liberal environmentalist position.
Right?
Wrong.
As a direct result of this position, zoning laws are in place that keep the rents high, that keep low-income housing from being built.
As a result, the dishwashers and a lot of the poor (a large percentage of who are Mexican immigrants) end up living 20 miles away in Longmont where they can afford the rent and they commute to work.

Same kind of thing happens in NYC.
NYC liberal city, yet still quite stratified.

[janx]

61. Dishwashers? Heck, try some university faculty and staff.

Thirty to fifty grand a year doesn't buy much house in Boulder. ;-)

62. LOL ! well,I haven't lived there for about 8 years

not surprised to hear it's gotten worse.

[janx]

91. Dean used that line because he believes in democracy.

He believes that the American people "have the power" to determine their own government.

A lot of people made fun of him for that.

[mzmolly]

63. "Progressive"

Though I don't think Dean (as an independent man) can be boxed in or labeled:

According to the dictionary progressive means:

Moving forward; advancing.

Proceeding in steps; continuing steadily by increments: progressive change.

Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership.

Progressive Of or relating to a Progressive Party: the Progressive platform of 1924.

n.

A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government.

Sorry he doesn't meet *your* definition of progressive, but he meets mine and that of websters dictionary :hi:

I always refer to Dean as a *fighting centrist* and a populist progressive. Though I consider myself a liberal/progressive, I am also pragmatic. I like Dean's pragmatic/balanced approach to Government. Dean managed to cut budgets in Vermont while increasing many social programs. He was elected 5 times in Vermont (a liberal state) to Govern. I only regret that he wont be our next President.

Here are the goals for Democracy For America:

To have strong, sustained grassroots involvement in the democratic process.

To promote an America where candidates and office holders tell the truth about policy choices and stand up for what they believe. The era when politicians equivocate about matters as fundamental as war and peace must end.

To fight against the influence and agenda of the two pillars of George W. Bush's Washington: the far right-wing and their radical, divisive policies, and the selfish special interests who for too long have dominated politics.

To fight for progressive policies like health care for all; investment in children; equal rights under law; fiscal responsibility; and a national security policy that makes America stronger by advancing progressive values.

What *liberals* have said:

“Governor Dean's 12-year record in the Statehouse was not liberal, conservative or elitist,” said Leahy. “He inherited a deficit, balanced the budget, pinched pennies, provided health care to all Vermont's children, protected the environment and created jobs.”

The endorsements from Leahy and Jeffords aren't likely to help Dean shed the liberal label, though. The two are among the most liberal members of the Senate and are heroes among liberals.


“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.” i ~ Howard Dean.

Call Dean what you like. He's changing American politics for the better. :hi:

[madfloridian]

66. I hate the labeling of Dean and his supporters! You are right. Change!

We are a wide mix of Democrats, Greens, Republicans, and Independents. We like one thing....someone to be honest and say the "emperor has no clothes" "he is not telling you the truth."

That is what he and we are about, and I am tired of being fun of and will not allow it to happen unchallenged.

Kerry and the others made fun of Dean when he said we were no safer with Saddam captured. Kerry said he was not fit to be president. Well, well, my friends....guess who was right.

How true:
“The press is all writing about Dean is the big liberal of the race,” said Dean at a Washington fund-raiser in March. “Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want.” ~ Howard Dean.

[mzmolly]

72. You are spot on as usual!

"Kerry and the others made fun of Dean when he said we were no safer with Saddam captured. Kerry said he was not fit to be president. Well, well, my friends....guess who was right."

Seems even the *mainstream* is saying this NOW. *sigh*

:hi:

Man I love that bumpersticker!

[madfloridian]

77. Should I find the original statement or leave it alone?

I may have to make good on my own research and post about others negatively...you think? It is so unclassy to make fun of our Democrats....but they said Dean was NOT fit to be president because he said we were no safer with Saddam captured...

And they are criticizing Dean?? Oh, my!

[mzmolly]

83. I say dig it up incase it's needed.

;)

Heck, if your inclined, dig it up anyway. I'd love to see it. :hi:

[madfloridian]

85. Ok dokey......I see we just got a new label above.

"rank idiots."

[mzmolly]

87. At times like this, we must consider the source.

*angry liberal* *rank idiots* it's all the same.

:hurts: CRAP

[dkf]

88. Americans agree with Dean now

The poll also found that more than half say the Iraq war has made the United States less safe from terrorism. Only a third said it made this country safer.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040625/ap_on_re_us/iraq_poll

Dean was ahead of the curve and it looks like the more Dean is proved right, the more defensive others get.

[janx]

92. There's that, yes. He was right. But people also don't like

change, and DFA is firing up some grassroots action now at local and state levels.

Real democracy is scary :scared: to some people. They don't like to be in charge of their own destinies; it's so much easier to select some strong man to "take care" of them--somebody who fits into the right boxes, uses the familiar terms, and prints the right labels.

[no name no slogan]

102. Dean's a Commie. Rush said so.

(joking of course!) :hi:

[mzmolly]

74. Hey Wher'd the OP Go!? Imagine that ... he left.

:freak: Hmmm, crawled unda' a rock perhaps? :P

[Debi]

89. Brought to you by the Kerry for President campaign

Just in case the enthusiasm for Howard Dean hasn't died yet.....

"Hey, if you didn't support John Kerry in the primaries we will crush you like a bug" stated one Kerry staff member.

[JNelson6563]

90. Talk about late to the party!

*snicker* We already played this one out, you musta missed it. *yawn*

Got any other good games?

Julie

[Alex146]

93. his state was in a budget disaster what would u do?

[madfloridian]

94. And a GOP legislature...I posted two good articles near the top.

They explain it well.
Thanks for the response.

[bitchkitty]

97. This was boring back then, now it's just stupid.

Why don't you guys just let it go?

[maxanne]

103. pssst DaveSZ

Dean lost the nomination. He's not going to be president. You can stop the slagging, any time.

It is absolutely hilarious that this kind of regurgitation keeps getting recycled. Dean must really scare the shit out of a lot of folks, seein' as how he ain't the nominee. Howard Dean seems to be to the Democrats what Bill Clinton's penis is to the right wing.

Unfuckingbelievable.