A few people are trying to disarm calls against misogyny...

[Writer]

by attacking the concept of misogyny itself. I have read a couple of posts in here that seem to directly or indirectly ridicule the idea that misogyny exists, and by doing so attempts to disarm its reality.

The women who protested in front of NBC's "Today" show were likely not fully effective, but they are only the beginning. I applaud them for standing up and fighting the tyranny of the majority - the belief that Hillary Clinton's campaign is somehow weak-spirited or weak-willed (codewords: "playing the victim") for standing up to MSNBC. If women's equality in our political sphere is not a cause worth fighting for, then 51% of the country might as well walk away from from the vote they earned in 1920.

I recall standing in a NYC subway car in 2000, perusing the subway posters between fellow passengers. One poster showed a picture of a young woman above which stated "Your reproductive rights are in jeopardy." Indeed they were then, and very much are now. The poster continued to explain that Congress and the Supreme Court were looking at ways of curtailing women's reproductive rights and made a call for action. What appalled me about the poster is the fact that the poster existed at all - that the group that paid for the poster (I think it was Planned Parenthood) actually believed that they needed to reach out and educate complacent young women with this warning.

I believe the poster underscored the terrible truth of how younger women (I am one) have taken for granted Roe v. Wade, birth control pills, and everything older generations have fought for. This week 400 young women were pulled from a compound in Texas where they were in biblically-justified subjugated relationships under which their sole role was getting pregnant and serving the men of their religious sect. My question is: How can we have won "equality" when situations like this exist? We have freedom of religion in this country, but no religious freedom should exist where women and girls become the chattel of their male elders.

Misogyny exists. Sexism exists. Yes, it has played a role in this primary and Clinton's bid for the presidency. Women's rights have a much farther way to go. Stop ridiculing those efforts.

~Writer~

[LisaM]

1. Oh, fantastic

Thank you for articulating this so well.

[leftofcool]

2. Obama supporters MUST ridicule anything to do with Hillary

or her campaign. They think this will help them win the GE

[rug]

3. But the ridicule is so lame.

[EmilyAnne]

17. Hey, I totally agree misogyny is very real and very insidious in our culture. I also think racism

is. I think that its interesting to see some of the worse elements of our culture brought out to the surface because we have these two particular candidates. I like to keep in mind, of course, that there is no way in hell that anyone could convince me that the Clintons are racists or that the Obamas are sexist. They just aren't.

[Writer]

20. I don't think that the Clinton's are racists and the the Obamas are sexist, either.

And I hate it when those words are stuck in either of their mouths. We out here on the Internet and in the media are the greatest sources of those problems, imho.

[JoFerret]

29. For some it is a knee- jerk reflex.

.

[EmilyAnne]

41. We are all just scared. Some of us have been victims of sexism, homophobia and racism.

We have seen how nasty the political discourse became over the last 8 years. Maybe we are seeing offensive things where no offense should be taken, but that doesn't mean we should bash each other for pointing it out when we think we see it. In plain speak, just because someone makes a kneejerk response about racism, homophobia or sexism doesn't mean they should be dismissed. We need to keep talking to each other and try not to be hateful.

[JoFerret]

42. The reflex reaction I was referring to is the response of so many

Obama folk to anything to do with Hillary.

I am very aware indeed of those who have faced and continue to face the actual slings and arrows of discrimination. It has created a poisonous stew within which we all must strive to find the higher ground. (Just to mix a few metaphors.)

[cali]

37. another spiteful little generalization

I, an Obama supporter, applaud the women who demonstrated today, and I agree with the OP.

[Major Hogwash]

4. The real problem is NOT that Hillary is a woman, the real problem is that Hillary is a liar.

That probably went clear over your head, but whenever someone like Hillary says something so stupid as "how many angels dance on the head of a pin" when asked directly about their spouse taking money on a position she supposedly is against, it's really obvious she can't tell the truth.

Her comments about NAFTA, the Iraq War, and other issues are totally unbelievable.
They require a leap of faith.

And that doesn't make her a good candidate.

[Writer]

5. A person lying does not justify sexist comments about her on television.

The lying is a political argument that a person can agree with or disavow. The comments on her pants suits, her physical appearance, and her only achieving "because of her husband" is sexism.

Call her a liar all you want, but don't call her a bitch because she's strong or a harpy because she speaks up.

[LSparkle]

16. This is exactly why I wish HRC weren't the first viable woman candidate

because it's so hard to separate out how much of the criticism is because she's
a woman and how much of its is due to the fact that she is who she is. If Barbara
Boxer or Kathleen Sibelius were running for president, I wonder how much would
be made of their clothes or physical appearance ... There at least wouldn't be
as much talk about them achieving because of their husbands.

Bill proudly talked about "two for one" while he was president but I don't think
he realized how many people (including some women) were offended by that. Although
she hadn't been elected president, she was given a major assignment (health care),
which rankled many people. The "how dare she?" indignation is still rearing its
head during this campaign, and that might not have been the case had another
woman been the first true contender for president.

[Writer]

18. I think that's a very, very fair assessment.

However, I don't view that as a drawback to Hillary Clinton, but as a challenge for Democratic women to stand up and fight back. As you can see, the cloak of "power hungry woman" was hung on her long ago, and she has been fighting to remove it ever since.

[EmilyAnne]

19. True. Anyway, I think Hillary is a perfectly beautiful, healthy 60 year old woman. I don't know

what some people expect her to look like.

[Hepburn]

31. I could not care less if Hillary is male or female....

...that has no impact on the issue of how much and how often she lies.

[zarath]

44. yes and no

Her being a liar (above and beyond the run of the mill lying every politician does) doesn't "justify" sexist comments, but it does help explain them.

By the way:

comments on her pants suits -> yes, these are sexist
comments on her physical appearance -> yes, these are sexist
saying she only achieved her current position "because of her husband" -> NOT sexism because it's as close to objective truth as you can get with that type of statement.

[LisaM]

6. Obama has a few lies on his resume, too.

They're politicians. They say one thing and change to another. For example, he said he would serve out his first Senate term. He clearly is not planning to.

Way to deflect, anyway. The post is about misogyny.

[VotesForWomen]

15. the real problem is that if O was a woman, his candidacy would have gone nowhere. that's "reverse se

sexism" if you will, and there is not a single honest DUer who can deny this. can anyone here honestly say that if O was a black woman he would be exactly where is is today? yeah, didn't think so.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. I'm really starting to wonder whether you're at all capable of an intellectually honest statement.

Misogyny is not the reason Hillary is losing. No-one here is denying that it exists; what's being denied is that it's a significant reason for Senator Clinton's relatively poorer than expected performance in this year's primary elections. The truth is that the only candidate making an issue of Hillary Clinton's gender in this Democratic primary race is Hillary Clinton. There may have been some ugly jabs from certain quarters of the media, but those are to be expected, because those same people will take jabs at almost any Democrat running for office. Yes, sexism exists. Just as racism exists and has played some role in this primary and in Obama's bid for the presidency. But to suggest that sexism is the reason Clinton is losing is just ridiculous. To suggest that Randi Rhodes calling Hillary Clinton and Geraldine Ferraro 'whores' is somehow worse or more reprehensible than Clinton's campaign calling Obama a 'drug dealer' or 'closet Muslim radical' is to engage in blatant intellectual dishonesty (but then you seem to like framing your arguments that way, from what I've seen).

[redqueen]

8. Oh please.

Those demonstrators weren't "playing the victim".

But Hillary / her supporters are *if* they are bringing up sexism at every opportunity. Address it when it happens, then let it go or risk being pigeonholed the boy who cried wolf.

[Writer]

9. You're saying "at every opportunity."

I guess a sexist comment or remark would present them an opportunity, now, wouldn't it? I mean, why ignore a completely brilliant sexist comment when it arises? That would be a waste.

[redqueen]

12. Agreed.

So when it happens, address it.

If you keep bringing it up, that's that flag-waving thing I was talking about... and THAT is when you start doing harm to the cause. That's when people start tuning out not just you (for hammering on whatever it is repeatedly) / but the entire issue.

However... hammering on something repeatedly is still worthwhile if we're talking about something like FGM. But if you're talking about some radio station stunt where some a-holes yell "Iron My Shirt" - that's counterproductive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. I respect them for speaking out against misogyny. God knows we could always use more of that.

However, I went over to hillaryclintonforum.net, who were the folks who organized it. One of them made up a list of talking points that they planned to disseminate at the protest. Many of the points were about the sexism and mockery that Sen. Clinton is routinely subjected to. Those were very fair points and they are to be commended for trying to raise attention to them.

At the same time, some of the other points were essentially demands that the media show more "fairness" to Clinton in the form of "airing as many good stories about her as Obama". Huh? What does that have to do with sexism? To me, that's the same kind of false equivalence argument that the right wing is using when it demands "equal time" for global warming skepticism and crackpot intelligent design theories. Or when they complain that we aren't hearing enough of the "good news in Iraq". The fact is that sometimes there aren't two sides to the story and sometimes you get more bad coverage than good because you deserve it. IMO, apart from the sexist commentary (to which every woman in the public eye will be subjected - we live in a patriarchy, duh) the media has been quite kind to the Clinton campaign, considering its many foibles and the extraordinary level of mismanagement it has demonstrated. Doesn't excuse the sexist asshattery, and please don't claim I'm doing that.

[Texas Hill Country]

13. well, it is a possible symptom of the sexism that people like Tweety have.

[Hepburn]

36. Tweety is an asshole 99% of the time...

...and it matters not, IMO, if he is reacting to a male or female person. It's not sexism with him...it is like I said ~~ he is just simply an asshole most of the time.

[Writer]

14. That is what I would summarize as "media illiteracy."

The thought that somehow the media are biased one way or another. That's indicative of online life, imho, including moments in this forum.

Certainly statistics have appeared that more negative stories have appeared about Clinton, etc., but those are only snapshots of a greater picture. I don't believe the media have any other agenda than attracting your attentions. The entire point is not about criticizing Hillary Clinton, but doing so without making sexist remarks. It looks like hillaryclinton.com has its fools, as well.

[VotesForWomen]

11. you are correct that many here implicitly deny that sexism exists at all in america. they must be c

called on this BS every time.

[ProSense]

21. Criticizing Hillary = ridiculing women's rights efforts?

BS exists too!

[Writer]

23. No. Ridiculing a protest opposing sexism in the media = ridiculing women's rights efforts. n/t

[ProSense]

28. No, claiming that Hillary is losing because of sexism is ridiculous, and so is this:

Psychological Gang Bang of Hillary is Proof We Need a Woman President

[Writer]

34. Hillary isn't losing because of sexism... but sexism has played a role in the negative press she's

received. That's why the protest this morning was well-needed.

You know, I understand the the title is provocative and all, but NOW doesn't represent all women all the time.

[ProSense]

43. No, her lying and dirty campaigning is responsible for the majority of the negative press. n/t

[Hepburn]

40. Oh, GMAFB.....

....IMO that little group get together had almost NOTHING to do with sexism. Rather, it had to do with the fact that Hillary is not doing well and they wish to blame the media instead of the fact that she has run a hideously awful campaign.

Please....when I came of age, in California a married woman could not own real property in her own name. That did not change until 1975. That is a REAL issue of sexism ~~ not some faux bullshit like what I saw today. Frankly, I think blaming everything that goes wrong on being female is not only a very poor excuse, but a very dumb thing to do.

I am female...and I went to work in what was basically a man's profession back many years ago ~~ I am a retired trial atty. I can tell you that at NO time did I EVER feel that being female was a disadvantage. I never felt I had been discriminated against when I finished wiping the courtroom floor with a witness...and NO ONE ever asked me to mop up the blood.

What a poor excuse for failure....blaming it on being female. That IMO sets the women's movement back a good deal. I wish people would stop this bullshit. Being female is NOT a disadvantage...PERIOD.

JMHO

[zulchzulu]

22. Can misogynists like Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Claire McCaskill and Amy Klobuchar?

I'm totally confused.

I like Obama a lot and have done lots of grassroots work for him for over a year and therefore must be a misogynist :crazy:.

I signed up over 3,000 people to get info on the Obama campaign; many were women.

I like many women leaders and work with women daily. I have had women managers that were fantastic, hard working, dedicated and fair.

However, I don't support Hillary Clinton as the best choice to be the next President. What am I doing wrong? Why can't I see past her constant lies, her use of sexism, her war record, her triangulation and that of her husband?

Please help me. Save me from what must be misogyny.

:sarcasm:

[Writer]

26. Well... if you are a misogynist, I can recommend a few good clinics for you.

I'm sure Planned Parenthood can set you straight. :sarcasm:

But if you are not a misogynist, and it seems quite apparent that you don't actually believe you're a misogynist, then do us all a favor and criticize Hillary Clinton without sexist comments or innuendo, okay?

Wait - you haven't made those comments? Okay, because that renders me confused. As it seems that everytime I talk about ridiculing a women's rights protest as BAD, a few folks say that I'm associating any general criticism of Hillary Clinton with sexism. Honestly, I couldn't give a shit what people say about her policies or her performance in government. I DO care, however, about sexist comments about her. That does make me a little pissy.

[MethuenProgressive]

24. Excellent post, expect attacks by the 'usuals'

They'll claim you said something you didn't and then attack you for what you didn't say.
It's Tradition.

[TahitiNut]

25. Yup. Now consider too the impact of misogyny/sexism on a child of a single mother.

The tacit assumption that Hillary Clinton exclusively suffers the burden of bias due to misogyny is a flawed assumption. The most pervasive of bigotries in our society are those that are handed down from generation to generation due to a decreased ability to provide for and care for their children. educationally, medically, and as an economic "safety net" as adults. Hillary's "roots" are advantaged, unlike Bill's.

[Writer]

27. Where did I say that Hillary Clinton's bias is "exclusive?"

[TahitiNut]

30. Uh ... maybe with "it has played a role in this primary and Clinton's bid for the presidency"?

Nice try. :eyes: Is the phrase "tacit assumption" beyond your ken???


Get off the tracks, Nell.

[Writer]

32. It has PLAYED A ROLE, not "It is the sole reason."

I will avoid the snarky retort that says "you didn't read," but you didn't read... carefully at least.

[TahitiNut]

38. There's a difference between "her only problem" and "only her problem."

It is the latter that I argue against, however imperfectly stated. Try reading again ... with feeling.

:eyes:

[Writer]

39. There is a problem when you read things into an OP that simply aren't there.

So how would you like to continue this flame war, TahitiNut?

[PoliticalAmazon]

33. The issue is claiming misogyny as a reason for Hillary's failures....

...when clearly that is the case.

The latest I read here: the claim that people who don't like Hillary Clinton are misogynists.

Clearly, this isn't true. The issues that make Hillary unlikeable have nothing to do with her gender, nor is it applying a different yardstick to measure her and the male candidates.

It has to do with her dishonesty, unethical behavior, embracement of Rove-Bush Jr tactics, lies, ridiculous spin, using race-baiting to win points, and constant poor-me/victim role in which she attempts to cast herself.

She is setting back a woman's chance at the White House by decades with her actions. And that has nothing to do with the fact that she is a woman. It has to do with the fact that she presents 4 more years of the same crap we've had from Bush Jr for 7 years.

[OzarkDem]

35. Thanks, good post

And some people would like to see young women forget misogyny and the past. Its much easier to take away their rights again.

[nichomachus]

45. And yet no one talks of misanthropy

What about all the misanthropes who won't vote for Obama just because he's a man?

[Kurovski]

46. K&R

Real mysogyny is the breeding ground for very real horrors all over the world.

I agree that sexism has played some part in Sen Clinton's campaign, I also hold the opinion that she's the least best choice of the two candidates.

Clinton is a member of the money party. She is part of the structure that actually holds real change back, IMO.

[Chulanowa]

47. Comparing the 400 women rescued from that compound...

with criticism of Hillary Clinton, and labeling htem as equals, really doesn't help the point you're making at all. Maybe calling Clinton "Shrill" is sexist, but it bears no comparison - none whatsoever - to a group of women traumatized and bred like puppy mills from the age of 12. Not even close.