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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:06 PM
Original message
Clinton's Catastrophic Failure of Judgment
"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion" -- Edmund Burke

Clinton has not only failed her own test of the 3 AM call, she has exhibited a catastrophic failure of judgment in this campaign of hers. Not only because she uses focus groups and polling to test what she says, not only because she has told a series of whoppers, not only because her campaign has become a miserable failure when she had every advantage. The catastrophe surrounds her choice and method of associates who are not only her long-time friends, but her extremely well-paid advisers. If, as Clinton supporters have so very much liked to point out during this campaign, "you are judged by the company you keep", then Clinton is about to be judged harshly.

The company she keeps is Mark Penn and his firm, Burson-Marsteller, which since the primary contests have begun, has received more than $100,000 per day. And for what exactly? Formally, as filed with the FEC: strategic advice and polling services. Yes, she has tailored her messaging based on the advice and polling data from this man, who, is anything but a progressive political expert. She has used his services to sacrifice her judgment to the progressive opinion, all the while, she has been considering other plans.

As has been recently learned, Mark Penn and his company have associated themselves with some of the most aggressive right-wing and conservative initiatives imaginable. The Trade Deal with Colombia, being heavily pushed by the Bush Administration, is one of the most recent examples of Mark Penn's representation. But there are many others. As I've highlighted here: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/berni_mccoy/271, Penn's company not only worked for Bush/Colombia's trade deal, not only was one of it's chief's Charlie Black, McCain's campaign adviser, not only were they Blackwater's primary PR Firm, but they formed 360 Advantage, an extreme RW media organization with many of the people from the Bush/Cheney 2000/2004 campaigns. You have to wonder at this point if Karl Rove himself is actually working for Clinton's campaign. After Rove went to work for Fox, Clinton has made numerous appearances on the network.

What would drive Clinton to choose such a person as her chief strategist and adviser? Perhaps it was the prestige that Penn advised British Prim Minister Tony Blair for his successful third-term run. Perhaps it was the long-time relationship with her husband Bill, where he served as pollster and adviser for Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign and throughout the second term of his administration. After all, Bill Clinton is strongly in favor of the trade deal with Colombia. Whatever reason she had, it has proven to be a complete and utter failure of her judgment to chose this person as her primary adviser.

He chose a strategy that was a winner-take all approach leading up to Super Tuesday. When that plan completely failed, and there was no backup plan, the racial attacks and kitchen-sink approach began. The campaign seemed to mirror Bush's 2000 primary run. When losing badly to McCain at the beginning, Rove set about a whisper campaign to call into question the race of McCain's daughter and how he came to have a 'black baby'. Penn took every advantage Clinton had going into this campaign and simply squandered them away with outright lies and smear attacks. All of which came back to bite the campaign in a very bad way.

It was bad enough when Clinton was caught in, not just one or two exaggerations, but a series of complete untruths (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/8/171833/4930/894/492369), you have to wonder what were they thinking? Polling, perhaps, is the answer: tell the people what they want to hear, true or not. Her entire credibility has come into question, and for completely unnecessary lies. She could have not made these fanciful claims, but she did. She appears to be pathological.

The answer to why is in who she has come to depend on. Yes, Mr. Penn. The absolutely disaster of her campaign lies at his feet. But he is not to blame. He is simply trying to create a fictional character. Remember, Penn goes way-back with the Clintons. She *knows* him, personally. This explains why she won't really fire him. But it also explains her inconsistency with NAFTA and other trade deals. She fully supported NAFTA during her husbands administration and as the recently revealed Clinton Administration documents show, she spoke out as a proponent for NAFTA. It is extremely unlikely that she did not know about Penn's service to the government of Colombia, especially given her husband's strongly pro-stance on the Colombia/Bush Administration trade deal. And given her recent series of lies, it is hard to give her the benefit of the doubt in this. She also had to know that Penn's company had protected Blackwater, worked with McCain's campaign and even partnered with Bush/Cheney's old team to form a new political advocacy firm. Maybe this is why she has been so outwardly spoken in favor of McCain. At any rate, her catastrophic failure of judgment in choosing and standing by Mark Penn certainly explains much about her campaign. Let's hope it helps Democratic voters, Delegates and Super Delegates decide where she really stands: for them or for the ideology for someone like Mark Penn. After all, if she wins, Mr. Penn is going to be in her administration, salary paid for by taxpayers like you and me.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. 5th REC!
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick (nm)
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Backing up a bit
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 03:37 PM by PATRICK
some of us would say this goes back to a fundamental flaw typified in Third Way reaction to GOP corporate takeover of a moderately liberal society, civil government and system. It typifies the common attitude of workers in the MSM news media. brain damaged on the bad guys Kool-Aid. Bush also could have had this nation eating out of his hand, comparatively by simply not going into the dark stuff, the insanity, the in your face lying and outright robbery and treason.

They can't help themselves because their primary reasoning, thought process, philosophy, practical understanding of how the real world works is radically flawed. Self-congratulatory cocktail parties, schmoozing, modest personal successes, milking a system they don't really comprehend except for the fantasy veneer that they come to believe IS reality. Pragmatism as a mask for never coming to terms with the reality of what is mortally and morally wrong, stiffing reason then the mass of the population then reality itself with conflated meaningless dollar amounts in huge, fortified bank accounts. Thinking that the bad guys will never go too far, can be trusted and worked with and treated as a legitimate lawful competitor and that consequences, though messy, must be ignored.

It all boils down to having your head screwed on so wrong that you corkscrew the entire nation in playing the current rigged game-boards of illegitimate power, with zero basis in the united popular choice, logic or real world physical results. Trying to rant to get people to face this is nothing compared to the shock of reality at seeing how far these people will descend in this downward spiral thinking it is a royal carpet. They ALWAYS will go too far even if poorly opposed or not opposed at all because if sane people don't confront them, the real universe unfortunately doesn't change in the slightest for the triumph of the leech's will.

There will always be hopeful people who want to believe the good part, the smart and winning part, the liberal trappings, the modest results and who, given the state of the booster news, will be shocked to see the trajectories come crashing into the wall and that the driver they trusted was drunk, incompetent, pre-occupied, self-chosen, oblivious to the safety of the passengers and finally- a judgment dilemma for the observer who can't decide if they were more arrogant than rock stupid.

And unfortunately, despite the obligatory Siegfried Funeral March for an awesome campaign blowout, it is not just HRC, but the entire United States of America that is buried up to its dumb and dumbed down eyeballs in wonderful stuff that penn truly stands for.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It all boils down to having your head screwed on so wrong that you corkscrew the entire nation
Perfect description of Bush/Cheney... I believe HRC is potentially as bad.

But I disagree on your last point. I believe, and I hope, that America has finally started waking up and opening their eyes. Record turnouts for Obama and the Democratic party as the last best hope for this nation. As cynical as I have become, I can not help but get my hopes up with the promise that is Obama.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Hope with some awareness
that it is just the barest beginning. First a decent, intelligent public servant legitimately elected. Second awareness that we HAD NO SUCH THING whatsoever these past years and usually the evil opposite. Third, a continued public involvement and democratic revolution with no resting on laurels and idealizing appeasement with mortal flaws and evils.

Then there is all that actual work to do(mostly just to survive), for which no post is long enough.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
55. interesting thoughts.
It helps explain why the Clinton campaign just won't give it up. They somehow just can't believe that their worldview isn't the correct one, and that their gameplan isn't working this time.

People are waking up. It took a truly over-the-top administration like the Bush administration for people to want real change; they've lost their tolerance for BS. The state of the nation is such that even ordinary people feel that the stakes are high. They don't want to be fooled again.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. No arguement here.
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
:kick:
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 08:46 PM
Original message
did i read that right? $100,000 / day
that can't be right
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. I thought so too...
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 09:23 PM by stillcool47

DISBURSEMENTS BY PAYEE
HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT
PO Box 101436
Arlington, Virginia 22210
FEC Committee ID #: C00431569
This report contains activity for a Primary Election
Report type: March Monthly
Filed 03/20/2008

Penn, Schoen & Berland Assoc. LLC 3,147,990.00


and then I saw this a little while later. Weird.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/25/america/LA-GEN-Colombia-Clinton.php
Colombia to honor Bill Clinton amid growing Democrat scrutiny
The Associated Press
Published: May 24, 2007


BOGOTA, Colombia: Colombia will honor former U.S. President Bill Clinton for his efforts to reverse the country's image for violence and drugs at a gala event next month in New York City.
-------------------------
Prominent Democrats on the guest list include former Clinton strategists Dick Morris and Vernon Jordan, former Clinton Cabinet members Lawrence Summers and Madeleine Albright, and several Democratic congressmen, Montoya said.

The Colombian government is trying to counter its negative image among Washington Democrats and secure congressional passage of a free trade agreement signed by Uribe and the Bush administration last year, a deal Uribe considers his biggest foreign policy achievement.

Colombia agreed this month to pay US$300,000 (€223,000) to public relations firm Burson-Marsteller to help "educate members of the U.S. Congress and other audiences" about the trade deal and secure continued funding for Plan Colombia, the U.S.-backed counter-narcotics program that has cost American taxpayers more than US$5 billion (€3.72 billion) since 2000.


And last month, Uribe's government put The Glover Park Group, a lobbying firm that includes former Clinton spokesman Joe Lockhart, on a US$40,000 (€29,744) a month retainer.

Montoya said the idea to honor Bill Clinton came last year, "before President Uribe was re-elected and all of Colombia thought the free trade agreement was a fact, not an issue."

"Clinton is Colombia's best tourism minister because everytime he opens his mouth to talk about the country he's helping to improve our country's image without even realizing it," she said.

Clinton was responsible for pushing Plan Colombia through Congress when he was president, and for years he said he wore a bracelet honoring a Colombian culture minister, Consuelo Araujo, who was kidnapped by leftist rebels and killed during a botched military rescue attempt shortly after they met at the White House in 2000.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/25/america/LA-GE

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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. did i read that right? $100,000 / day
that can't be right
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sorry, but it's true. Check out Clinton's March FEC data at FEC.gov
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I think that it includes a lot of direct mailing that the firm over sees as well.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't see it as a failure exaclty.
More like an example. :shrug:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. If she's being considered as the Democratic nominee, her judgement has failed her... though I see
your point... it's an example of her every day choice, more than a failure of judgement, if it is revealing her true character.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Right. She thought she had it all sewed up and Dems would fight to the death
to put her and Bill back on the peacock throne no matter what she said or did.

Oh, how unfair it all is! :cry:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. You have centered on a very interesting theme that is interesting to follow from time to time:
What does the campaign reveal about the candidates?

Every once in a while the real Hillary slips out and its like an amazing encounter - funny engaging and intelligent. The rest of the time it is like an Indonesian shadow play with profiles of puppets projecting the shadows onto a sheet.

Who is behind it? What are they really saying? Who is really in charge? What is Hillary like. It is a mangled mess of conflicting themes. You have asked a compelling question - why is she making the choices she is?

The irony is that if she had done what McCain did after NH and gotten rid of the entourage and just been plain Hillary and stood in front of town hall after town hall and answered all of the questions in a vulnerable frank and engaging way she would have recaptured the momentum and won the nomination.

Thanks
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. You source "Daily Kos" to paint Clinton as a liar?
How freaking pathetic -- that site is consumed by Hillary hate. Calling Hillary a liar is a dirty campaign tactic put out by the BO campaign as this memo proves:

"Obama Camp Memo on Clinton “Misleading” Voters"

http://thepage.time.com/obama-camp-memo-on-clinton-misleading-voters/
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The Article on Kos was a LIST of articles from CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, Bloomberg and Time
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 10:32 PM by berni_mccoy
Sorry that you can't face the facts on this.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I won't click on Daily Kos
As I stated, painting Hillary as a liar is a coordinated effort by the Obama campaign -- character assassination. Dirty stuff indeed -- this is the fact that should be faced.

"Obama Camp Memo on Clinton “Misleading” Voters"

http://thepage.time.com/obama-camp-memo-on-clinton-misleading-voters/
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You are putting the tinfoil on thick. Good luck and
peace.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Just facts---
That memo is from the BO campaign -- it repeatedly paints Clinton as a liar. You call it "tinfoil"; I call it dirty.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Loosen the tinfoil a bit, will ya?
What is wrong with the Obama campaign pointing out untruths in what Clinton is saying? That is perfectly valid criticism and apparently, CBS, CNN, NBC, Time and Bloomberg all agree with the Obama campaign on these issues. For you to call it a "concerted effort" is tinfoil crap.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
100. Obama people think that they are above the law.
They think he is an idol. Wait until June. He is just a very ordinary person.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Thank You!
For repeatedly trying to change the subject and advoid the obvious facts!
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. "Paints Clinton as a Liar"?
She's already proven she excels at it. No "painting" necessary.
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jettison Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
86. lies
When someone "paints someone as a liar", that does not then mean that the person they are "painting" is not a liar. If someone lies, and then you call them a liar then that does not negate their lies.

Hillary lies. If you are unwilling to see that, that is nobody else's problem but your own.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
105. She doesn't have to be painted as a liar by anyone
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 05:47 PM by Carolina
She is a fucking liar! Sniper fire, against NAFTA... so much bullshit, all the time
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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. When will it occur
to Clinton supporters that everything gone wrong with her campaign has been the direct result of HER OWN ACTIONS. No smear jobs, no kitchen sink from either Obama or Mccain for that matter, but from herself. I'm sick of hearing so many people (like Maddow) say: Why don't they stop bickering. BUt she is the only one doing the bickering and sabotaging herself. I'm sorry but no one told her to go in front of people and BLATANTLY LIE. I just cannot understand what must be in her supporters minds to simply filtern out these things out.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
73. Here you go, now you don't have to click on Kos
1. Claimed she had to avoid sniper fire in Bosnia
CBS Exposes Hillary Clinton Bosnia Trip - CBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4

2. Claimed she opposed NAFTA
Hillary Clinton's NAFTA Story Exposed - MSNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BrPZYbCdJ4

3. Claimed she opposed war in Iraq before Obama
In Oregon, Clinton Makes False Claim About Her Iraq Record Vs. Obama's
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/in-oregon-clint.html

4. Claimed she "was instrumental" in negotiating peace in Ireland
Hillary's Just Making It Up As She Goes Along
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_carlson&sid=a204mQ9_FgVY

5. Claimed she helped Kosovo refugees escape to Macedonia
Hillary's Just Making It Up As She Goes Along
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_carlson&sid=a204mQ9_FgVY

6. Claimed she created SCHIP
Obama Camp's Response: Bosnia, SCHIP, FMLA
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/03/obama_camps_response.html

7. Claimed she passed the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Obama Camp's Response: Bosnia, SCHIP, FMLA
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/03/obama_camps_response.html

8. Claimed she was first to call Darfur genocide
Hillary's Lies: Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/03/24/134622.php

9. Claimed she intervened in Rwanda
Hillary's Lies: Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/03/24/134622.php

10. Planted questions in her own town hall meetings
CNN Interviews Student Who asks Hillary a Planted Question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fr1dm2Qdls&feature=related


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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. And now you've linked to blogs/opinion?
This is what the "Kos" people are using to attack Hillary as a liar?

You should understand that painting Hillary as a liar is first of all, a CAMPAIGN TACTIC from Barack Obama. Secondly, it is the cheapest, most low-down assault on character -- character assassination.

This memo from the BO campaign PROVES there is a concerted effort to smear Hillary as a liar. It's as DIRTY as it gets:

"Obama Camp Memo on Clinton “Misleading” Voters"

http://thepage.time.com/obama-camp-memo-on-clinton-misleading-voters/
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jettison Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. You will NEVER get it
Hold on tightly to your fantasies. I suppose when Hitler was accused of killing the jews that it was really just a "character assassination". "How dare people point out that he killed people! It's a 'campaign tactic' sheeple! Wake up!"

You're the only person using the word "smear". Smear isn't accurate. When people lie, and then others point out, "Hey bub, you lied when you said that", it's not smearing. It's simply calling a spade a spade.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #88
113. Of course he won't.
He continually links to - as in the post you replied to - to a an article that verifies all the claims made against her, and thinks it is DEFENDING her.

His reading comprehension is as astute as his political acumen. He doesn't see it because he doesn't WANT to see it.
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EnemyOfTheocracy Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
102. so obama hypnotized her to lie about bosnia?
nice try pal.
all you hill-bots are the same
"it's a smear,it's a smear!"
she is a serial LIAR
your blind support of her, regardless of the televised lies she tells, would make even kim jong il jealous.
stick a fork in that DINO. she is done.
cry me a river while i call the "WHAAAAAAAAAAA-bulance"
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jettison Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
85. At this point...
Hillary could spit in your Cheerios, and you would claim that someone had messed with your vision, that it was some vast Obama conspiracy meant to mislead you into thinking that Hillary actually ruined your breakfast. Guess what! Hillary spit in your Cheerios. There is no "vast conspiracy".

For some people, there is nothing Hillary could do short of holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger that could get you to think that she wasn't anything but an archa ngel, descended down from Heaven to make up for the centuries of sexism that have existed in this country.

You want her to be that perfect hero for you so bad that you're willing to overlook just about anything. This is kind of how children can be with their parents sometimes, when their parents are their heroes and they just don't want to see the nefarious qualities of that parent because it would shatter their reality.

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shellgame26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. when will it occur
to Clinton supporters that everything gone wrong with her campaign has been the direct result of HER OWN ACTIONS. No smear jobs, no kitchen sink from either Obama or Mccain for that matter, but from herself. I'm sick of hearing so many people (like Maddow) say: Why don't they stop bickering. BUt she is the only one doing the bickering and sabotaging herself. I'm sorry but no one told her to go in front of people and BLATANTLY LIE. I just cannot understand what must be in her supporters minds to simply filter out these things out.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
99. Did you watch the Bosnia video? She IS a liar. Why would any of you supporters
not be concerned of her patterns of not telling the truth? Hasn't nearly 8 years of having a lying pResident been enough for you? sheesh :eyes:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
112. I don't suppose you bothered to actually read the link that you
put up.
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bilgewaterbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. Mark Penn was hired by Dick Morris fro the '96 race. I don't doubt
that he purposely sabotaged Hillary. What better way to get back at her for her perceived "attacks" on Morris than to overlook the the micro-segmenting of the Dem voting bloc? This by the guy who literally wrote the book on the subject?
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. I think it all boils down to greed. Obviously, Clinton wasn't Penn's only client
When she should have been. He probably does nothing for 90% of what he is paid.
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EnemyOfTheocracy Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
69. you can't sabotage someone if you don't have a chance.
She has sabotaged herself all on her own. I doubt mark penn told her "talk about bosnia, lie your ass off."
but i can only state the obvious.

not only that retaining mark penn reflects here TERRIBLE judgement.
The way she managed her campaign is how she would managae our government.
i think i will pass.thanks.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
106. and it speaks volumes about Hillary that SHE HIRED them both!
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
108. Why would you sabotage
Your meal ticket? If Hillary ran her campaign like Obama and if Obama ran his like Hillary I wouldn't be able to support Obama. It's a matter of principle. It wouldn't surprise me that Bush really wants Hillary to win. Hillary will let Bush slide and help to cover up shit Bush has done to us. And I bet they won't turn back the laws Bush enacted while appointed.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for posting
interesting, just today Hillary said she doesn't watch the polls, but she kept Penn, to do polls and Strategy.
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jettison Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
89. Hillary doesn't watch the polls
And stock brokers don't follow the stock market.
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. New motto: "In Berni veritas"
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. *blush* Thanks.
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. You've earned it!
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. K and R
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
32. In spite of ALL in your OP...even IF true.. Obama still can't close on her!
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 06:05 AM by Tellurian
Hillary is the best candidate because she will be president of ALL the people not just Special Interests with specific agendas. Hillary excludes no one as unworthy or excluded from her attention as president, unlike Barack Hussein Obama.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Even though what I've said is true, Obama can't Win?!?!
That's the latest Clinton-supporter mantra? Hillary's bad, but Obama can't win?

Tellurian, Clinton is ALL ABOUT Special Interests. How can you recognize the validity of my post and not see that?
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Indigo Walrus Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. "unlike Barack Hussein Obama."
Nice.

:eyes:
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. You live in Bizzaro World
Hillary is sucking on the Corporate Teet 24/7 That and her IRW vote make her "unelectable".

Your use of Obama's middle name in your posts looks very Republican BTW.





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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. What are you smoking?
Pass it along to the rest of us because it must be good.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. NEVER, EVER THREATEN me with her being my president.
that is just plain rude. Those of us who are not enamored with her wish to have nothing at all to do with her.


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bjnumb9 Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #32
57. Way to throw the middle name in Tellurian
Or should I call you Mr. Ethnocentric Religiously Intolerant Bigoted Right Wing Radio Talk Show Host?
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
60. Obama can't close on her!
His reverse gear is stuck!
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EnemyOfTheocracy Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #60
70. how much of a pummeling can he give to her?
i mean the only reason she remains in the race is her only foolish pride and the false media narrative that the race is "close"
any sensible candidate would have already packed up the tents after crunching the math.
Obama has run a stellar, clean campaign.
He has stood by and watched as hilary destroyed herself.
PLUS her pennsylvania lead has evaporated.
There will be no coronation for the "queen of peace" *pukes*
only a primary race in new york for her senate seat that i contribute money to her challenger.
we have enough GOP and GOP-lite "bush dogs" getting rid of hilary would be one less.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
66. I feel for you. I really do. You're not going to enjoy the Latin Obama videos one bit
:hug:

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
74. Wait a minute! You're saying his middle name is HUSSEIN! Why did this come up before?!
You've cut like a laser through all the trash talk to get to the central issue that we should be concentrating on.

Wait until the GOP finds this out!
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
75. can't "close" on her?
judging by your inability to grasp the objective reality of the situation that Obama is LEADING (pretty handily I might add) her in the race for Democratic nominee, I think your opinion of finer more subjective matters can be safely ignored.
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guyanakoolaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
90. You're right, hillary excludes nobody from her attention... including lobbyists and warmongers
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jettison Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
91. You need help. You're sick. See someone for that.
Hillary is the one that takes all the special interest money, not Obama. Also, mentioning Obama's middle name just makes your post look even worst. I'm not afraid to call you a racist. You are one.
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atal Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
36. The Mark Penn factor will tip PA to Obama
K & R
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
38. Obama's Catastrophic Failure of Judgment: Taking his children to hear Hate preached from the pulpit.
His Failure of Judgement is Tantamount to Child Abuse In My Opinion.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. MethuenProgressive's Catastrophic Failure of Judgement: Posting before Thinking
But then, that happens on a daily basis for him.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. You give BO a pass on *his* whoppers, on *his* associates.
That's a catastrophic failure of honesty, isn't it?
Craft us a post about his being conceived on a civil rights march in Selma, on his 'owing his entire existence to the Kennedys,' on not knowing he was lifting speeches from Deval Patrick, on his not knowing Wright was a controversial bigot, on not knowing Donnie McClurkin was a homophobe, on not knowing Rezko was a crook, on not knowing about his camp's Swiftboating of the Clintons on race.

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion" -- Edmund Burke

Yeah, what he said.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. There you go again...
Projecting Clinton's (and your own?) failures onto Obama.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. So, you vote Present instead of being honest?
How Obama of you.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I'm sorry you are challenged by the truth. Good luck and peace be with you.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. The problem with your logic is that you don't understand how politics works in Illinois...
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 10:15 AM by wowimthere
But first off how can a present vote usurp a vote for war? How can you believe his present votes are worse than taking a country to war on a lie for political calculations. I'm an Obama supporter but if he had used his vote to authorize war I wouldn't support any of them.

The present votes are a petty argument that Clinton used to dirty Obama's reputation. It's a mirage. If you vote on 4000 or so bills but you use present for 75 votes that's hardly saying that you didn't take a stand. Many senators in Illinois use this procedure. Every state is different. If you really want the skinny, do your homework. Library of Congress. His record is far superior to that of Clinton's. Dissect both of them instead of parroting Clinton. I did.
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EnemyOfTheocracy Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #52
103. he has never voted present in the united states senate.
he did in 3% of the votes in ill. state senate.

out of around 3000+ votes.

amusing snark but do try again.
try harder next time.
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
87. Wright bashing goes on with right wing talking points - among Democrats!
Before the Wright bashing goes on among Clinton partisans, I think at least we all should look at his whole career rather than parroting the narrow view of him as a "controversial bigot." I hope that everyone who uses a phrase like that has been an activist for change when it comes to racial divisions and inequality. Wright has been. I've posted a link from a very general source, but there have been several articles in the Washington Post and elsewhere that have highlighted his career accomplishments. I encourage open-minded people to stop the character assassination on Wright, which is divisive, and vote their conscience.

And I would welcome any posts with references to relevant news content on Obama's associations. I would also welcome Clinton supporters to say what they really think about $100,000 per day to Mark Penn's company rather than avoiding that issue. In reality, the race is nearly decided - I'm starting to make my plans for working in the fall to keep Wisconsin blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
110. Not knowing
That there WASN'T any sniper fire
Not knowing that you supported NAFTA in the 90's
Not knowing you husband is getting a BJ in the WH while your there
Not knowing you were actually voting for WAR
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Oy
n/t
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. you think repeating a lie long enough it will turn into the truth?
i did`t know that one could actually do this....
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
114. Well, I think taking children to hear ANYTHING preached from a
pulpit is child abuse. I've never heard a sermon that wasn't based on hate. What makes his faction of the christian death cult any worse than any other? Because he wants to hold the government accountable for failing its minority citizens?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
42. K & R
:thumbsup:
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liberaldem4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
45. K & R
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
46. The OP on this topic: A MUST READ!
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 09:03 AM by Mimosa
Berni_mcCoy, I'm relatively a newbie at DU by post count, although I registered a couple of years ago. Many DU members are good writers and analysts but your posts amaze me. You put together the facts to make your points instead of relying on emotions. I have no appreciation for opinions formed on feelings instead of thinking through issues using all the facts one can come by. Your concerns about how Clinton would govern and reward her supporters if elected mirror my own. It seems to me that she and Bill will owe favours, many favours, to the various entities which have enriched them. During his administration Bill Clinton rewarded his friends.

I haven't yet contributed money to DU because right now it is important to me to contribute what I can to Barack Obama's campaign. Since I'm not a DU contributing member I don't think I can find out more about you from looking at your profile. Your journal is great, btw. I'm curious about who you are. If you ever feel like it please click on my signature link. I co-administer a multi-interest discussion board. The same invitation goes out for other DU members.

BTW, Mark Penn looks creepier than most political types. ~LOL!~
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
79. I agree newbie. Welcome to DU. Yes, Berni_mcCoy's narrative is logical and persuasive.
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 12:20 PM by ShortnFiery
When I look at Mark Penn's picture I'm CREEPED OUT!

Mark Penn and Dick Cheney do seemingly have that *evil incarnate* type-aura.

Yikes!

Mommy!

Hold ME?!?

:scared:
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
47. Not a failure of judgement...
This offends me because it implies there is some redeeming value to be found in Hillary Clinton. She simply made an error. A boo-boo. She made no error. None of this was a boo-boo. She simply didn't expect to be challenged in any decision she made including running for president. How dare anyone even challenge her in a primary. This is her destiny. How dare you. I have found it wise to avoid the "how dare you" types.

There is no redeeming value be found in either Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton. The problem is she got caught finally. The way he got caught finally. And once again, everyone wants to make excuses for them both.

No doubt he will claim she was abused. So we have to understand. She's allowed. This time perhaps everyone will say, "No, she's not allowed. And neither are you."

Time for the dynasty to come to an end.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
48. Bravo.. spot on !
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
49. K&R Good one berni n/t
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parkeradison Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
54. Regarding "failure of judgment"
Hillary's got to be hating this revelation.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
56. One of their biggest blunders is thinking Dems are like Repubs.
And they are not. Democrats are much more sensitive to fairness, truthfulness, and small "d" democracy.
We don't want a king (or queen). We don't want to "fall into line" and blindly follow a leader, and choose that leader based on how angry they get, how loud they yell, how well they dish the dirt. We are not as susceptible to fearmongering (The 3 a.m. ad). We won't be fooled again.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. RIGHT!! Penn was not a centrist or a progressive so taking advise from the guy on how to KEEP the...
...progressive base of the Dem part was stupid.

I never ask a man about being pregnant.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
58. K&R a fantastic job telling the story of her implosion. You forgot the WAR Vote though
That was the turning point for me. What would have possessed her to authorize anything Bush and Cheney desired but for the fact that she agreed with them, was quite like them.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. I agree wholeheartedly about your point... however, too many have given her a pass already
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 10:12 AM by berni_mccoy
on this issue. Her IWR vote is just another example of failure of judgement. What is needed is to show the truth that she is systemically incappable of exercising good judgement. Once people wake up to this fact, they will realize what a mistake it would be electing her as president.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. Berni, you are spot on that people need to wake up... I don't like saying it...
but in Clinton I see many of Bush's traits. Either she believes the last 7 years were a result of good politicking or she believes people love this kind of politics. The Clintons, both of them, it seems, think that life and death issues are a political game. Since when did winning at any cost trump the lives she so aspires to help? She has become pure Republican in her stance on war, trade, bankruptcy. Maybe she's always been this way but we just didn't know it.

Obama is our only hope to get this kind of trash politics behind us.
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
59. This is sad
I want to see Barack take the oath of office as much as any of his other supporters. We know how poorly Clinton has performed in this primary. So, what! stop the negativity. It is disgusting to see Dem's have at it like this. We need the support of all Dem's. Lets not alienate them. I do not much care for Clinton. This back and forth has gone on too long. The more relevant things are Health care the war and the economy. Show me why I would support either candidate. Please don't demonstrate to me why I shouldn't support candidate X or Y. The politics of hate and fear are not worth it. We have gone through the last 12 years of all this vilification of everyone else's positions. Let us move beyond us/them.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. It may be negative to point out her failure, but it is the truth and it is necessary
to communicate it so voters, delegates and super delegates can make an informed decision. Can you imagine if somehow she is elected and she continues to make these failures in judgement as President? It would be a disaster for America and for the party.

I do not enjoy doing it, but she has made the choice to do so necessary.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Excellent post. Thanks.
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SeaLyons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
71. Thank You....
Issues of Health care, War, Economy - all lost on this board.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
82. Thos issues are lost on Hillary as well. She intends nothing of what she speaks.
She only speaks it to gain power. Once in power, she will do as she wishes.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
96. There is no more central issue to the campaign than the President's ability to
gather information and make judgements. Look at Iraq. Failure in judgement.

This OP has not attacked her charachter or taken any cheap shots.


Her ability to think and make decisions is on trial here and her campaign is a failure.


I will not call on her to stop her campaign. I will and have defended her against unfair attacks - like the hospital story.



This is a central issue and up until the day she does stop her campaign should be under daily review.


Excellent job Bernie
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
62. What a heartbreaker she's become, I'll vote for her but while holding my nose now. Penn was the last
...straw for me.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
72. Thank you for this thoughtful, informed OP.
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
76. ON A HUNDRED ISSUES---->
it is easy to look back and point out ERRORS...
...and nobody has perfect judgment... (myself excepted)

............BUT WE ARE IN A WAR SHE VOTED TO "ALLOW" THE PRESIDENT TO DECIDE UPON
BY ABDICATING THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF CONGRESS

-------------------who the hell allowed that to happen ???

i know.... there were mushroom pizzas in the distance and a whore-head aimed at saint louis
and there were WMDs north south east and west of somewhere
and troops were amassing on a border somewhere
and people were pissed about 9-11

BUT WHERE IN THE FUCK DOES THAT TELL CONGRESS TO ABDICATE!!!

1. to renounce or relinquish a throne, right, power, claim, responsibility, or the like, esp. in a formal manner: The aging founder of the firm decided to abdicate.
–verb (used with object) 2. to give up or renounce (authority, duties, an office, etc.), esp. in a voluntary, public, or formal manner: King Edward VIII of England abdicated the throne in 1936.

I BELIEVE WE HAVE HAD WAR BEFORE WITHOUT CONGRESS GRABBING THEIR BAGS AND RUNNING DOWN THE STREETS OF WASHINGTON......

BAD JUDGMENT.... WHERE JUDGMENT MATTERED...... NOT WHAT CHURCH DID SOMEONE ATTEND
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Ztarbod Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
77. No error in judgment, just intentions exposed
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Sander Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
78. Her Behavior Simply Does Not Make Sense
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 12:02 PM by Sander
While I had great respect for Hillary in the past and applauded her attempt to design a universal health care initiative in the '90's, I was disappointed she voted while in the Senate to authorize the Iraq invasion. However, she was not alone in that misjudgment. After all, John Kerry and John Edwards had done the same. But they admitted their errors. I actually was very comfortable that if she were the nominee, I could support her candidacy against any Republican.

I thought she might be a very strong candidate if she did just two things -- repudiate her vote on the war and repudiate her support of NAFTA. Actually, at one of the more recent debates, she did both. However, it appears now that she lied about her involvement with NAFTA and I am not really certain if she were entirely honest in admitting her vote on the war was a mistake, nor that she would renegotiate the terms of NAFTA.

But it the past few months, she has begun an all-or-nothing destructive campaign that will stop and nothing - even if it means destroying Democratic chances of regaining the White House. Her lies have now become so odious and obvious as to be comical. She has utterly destroyed her credibility. She has engaged in the politics of fear and personal destruction more reminiscent of George Bush than of any Democrat of recent memory. In fact, if it were not for the fact that the Republicans hate her so much, one might wonder if she were running for nomination as John McCain 's Vice President.

Where is the Hillary I once respected?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
81. This is what the 'Third Way' is all about.
FUCK THE DLC.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
83. I think Hillary might have been able to overcome her mismanaged
campaign and the early missteps, but after she told the Bosnia war story in vivid detail her credibility was lost. Once you've lost that, it's over.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
84. Voting for the IWR in 2002 is the one I can't excuse.
Kerry, Edwards, Biden, and Dodd are on that list as well.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #84
109. Thank you! That's when they lost me as well
Funny how all those with presidential aspirations voted for Bush's War 2 weeks before 2002 midterms! Hmmmm...

Political cowardice
Moral cowardice
No judgment
Poor leadership and hence all losers when it came to their POTUS bids.

May HRC join them very soon!
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. I wasn't happy with candidate John Kerry ...
... but I worked on his campaign anyway, because defeating Bush in 2004 was so important.

Ditto defeating McCain now if HRC is the candidate. I'll be sorely disappointed if she's our nominee, but Hillary is orders of magnitude more preferable to the rethug.

Nevertheless, voting for the IWR was and remains a deal-breaker with me when it comes to trusting or believing in a candidate.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. Which is why, of course, it was scheduled for right then.
The repukes scheduled the vote knowing that the dems didn't have the backbone to stand up to it - they might try to dither, and put in amendments, but all would back it for political expediency.

That was when I first started to understand who and what the DLC was. We had DLC dems condemning progressive dems for NOT falling in line behind the (p)resident

FUCK THE DLC.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
92. The $800K Bill took from Colombia - as reported on NBC Nightly News -...
is really going to resonate with voters. I don't care if his entire Presidency was a perfect storm of good luck or pure political talent, but how stupid and/or greedy do you have to be to accept cash from Colombia during your (d) wife's campaign?

There's more than enough hubris to go around in the Clinton clan.

To those who would jump to the conclusion that I'm a "hater", Obama is my FOURTH choice. All the better qualified candidates have already left the race.
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syberlion Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
93. "Vast RW Conspiracy"
With all the revelations with Mark Penn, who knew the RW conspiracy came from within the Clinton camp... :sarcasm:

Seriously though, I agree it's time to put to pasture the negative tactics and move forward. Can you imagine if we did this type of stuff when interviewing for a job? "don't hire that person, they attend a bad church..."

You put your best foot forward, and hope for the best. No, we have playground bullies running the show.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. The only people who mock the rw conspiracy are its members
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
94. Are they running for first political consultant? Campaigner in chief? Very superficial.
Elect the one with the best bells and whistles. Elmer Gantry comes to life.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Wow McCamy? I think you missed the point.
This isn't about who is running the better campaign. It's about using polls to determine what she says and Mark Penn's failure to dress her up as a progressive leader. She can't really hide what she is, when she associates with people like Penn, and what she is is anything but progressive. This is her catastrophic failure in judgement: that she has been exposed by the very people she has used to determine her words via polling.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #98
116. McCamy has only one point. The media controls everything.
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InfiniteNether Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
95. This goes to the heart as to why I don't like Clinton. I don't care about
stupid stories of snipers, and other occasional fibs. I don't like her because she is a neoconservative.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
101. Hillary seems comfortable hanging with very creepy people.
Look at the members of her "Prayer Group".
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
104. K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R!!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
107. NAFTA, ducking sniper fire, bookbags being thrown - great strategery, Hillary.
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 05:54 PM by Major Hogwash
For a Bush wannabe.
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