THEY DON’T CARE! Trudy Lieberman gets it right about that hospital story

[springhill]

http://www.dailyhowler.com/

As usual, Matthews didn’t really know what he was talking about. And sure enough! One hour later, Kornblut appeared on Race for the White House and warned the panel, at the end of the show, that Clinton’s story might be more accurate than had been thought. “My prediction is that the Hillary hospital story is going to, perhaps, have a surprise ending,” she coyly said. “In the end, it may turn out that Hillary Clinton was closer to the truth than we thought.” This morning, Kornblut authors this short report; according to Kornblut, Bachtel’s aunt “said in an interview Monday that Hillary Clinton has been telling the story accurately.” Some facts are still a but unclear. But for the fullest current account of this matter, we recommend this AP report by ex-Postman Charles Babington.

[dkf]

1. The woman had health insurance. She wasn't turned away for care.

Geez.

[Debi]

2. But there was another time in her life where she didn't have insurance

and was turned away. So the story is kinda-sorta-true :eyes:

[bunnies]

4. Is that what they're using now to claim the story as true?

That at one time, not the time when she died, but some OTHER time... she didnt have insurance? No way.

[Debi]

7. Yeah, there's a couple of threads about it in GD-P right now

And folks are defending Clinton on it because the story could have been true had it happened when the woman didn't have insurance. Truth be damned...good stories are hard to come by.


on edit: link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5424245&mesg_id=5424245

[bunnies]

24. wow. My head hurts.

So... let me be sure I have this straight:
"True" now = could have been true? By that logic, Bush told the "truth" about WMD's in Iraq. Go figure.

[Debi]

25. I still get emails from the campaign

I just got one on Obama's PA media blitz (and the implication that it is somehow unfair to the Clinton camp). My husband noted that if she had the money advantage she's spend it 'fairly' and with consideration to Senator Obama's lack of funds. :crazy:

I'm certainly not going to tell my son that almost, kinda, sort of the truth can be now considered the truth. x(

[bunnies]

34. oh puhlease!

She'd tone down her spending to be fair to Obama? Does anyone believe that?!

Not only has she *not* been fair to Obama at any time when she had the opportunity... but she would NEVER bypass the chance to drive her opponents face into the dirt. My gods! Doesnt she realize theres an adjective named after her and her bubby? :banghead:

lol. I wish sort of the truth = truth when I was younger. :( Would have saved me about a year of being grounded!

[pnwmom]

36. You're twisting things here.

This is what happened, according to the dead woman's aunt.

A couple years ago, when the woman didn't have insurance, she was unable to pay a hospital bill. That hospital got a judgment against her and eventually she got insurance and payed them back.

However, they had sent her a letter saying that she couldn't receive any future care there unless she paid them $100 in advance. When she ran into trouble in this pregnancy, she didn't go to that hospital because she didn't have $100 and she assumed she would be turned away. Finally she went to another hospital, where she eventually died. This second hospital -- that didn't know anything about the first, unnamed hospital -- was the one that came out and asked her to stop repeating the story.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/04/07/clinton_told_true_tale_of_woe.html

[Debi]

44. Where's my twist? Seems the Clinton is the one twisting the tale n/t

[pnwmom]

49. The story was true, according to the aunt.

There were two different hospitals, as HRC made clear in the telling. The first, nearby hospital, wanted $100 from the woman before they would treat her again. They sent her a letter saying that they wouldn't accept her as a patient unless she paid them. So the woman delayed in getting care -- we don't know how long she put off going, but the other hospital was 30 miles away. With a patient in eclampsia, every minute is critical.

[Debi]

55. Do you mean Preeclampsia?

I read the story. That's not the tale Senator Clinton told. Who's twisting? Senator Clinton.

[pnwmom]

58. The aunt says Clinton's story is true. I believe the aunt. n/t

[juajen]

52. OK, get it right folks!

l. Woman has medical problem while uninsured and goes to clinic close to home. Ends up owing 4,000 dollars and is sued for it. The
family claims bill was paid in 2005. Even though bill is paid, clinic close to home wants $100 prepaid for any visit.

2. When woman has insurance and is pregnant, she still cannot afford to go to clinic near home because they want a $100 deposit.

3. It is too difficult for her to go to hospital miles away for lack of money and transportation.

4. She and baby die because she did not have proper prenatal care.


WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? We need everyone covered by insurance in this country. Even when the woman had insurance this dumb clinic insisted on a 100 dollar deposit. Sad.

[Debi]

54. Your post intended for Senator Clinton? That's not what she was saying on the stump n/t

[pnwmom]

59. It's not in conflict with anything she said on the stump. n/t

[Coexist]

8. ??? was she turned away for pre-natal care?

[dkf]

12. No evidence and I don't see why she would have been since she had insurance.

[pnwmom]

51. There is the evidence of her aunt's statement. Her aunt said the first

hospital, the one near her home, had sent her a letter saying they wouldn't treat her in the future unless she paid them $100 up front. So the woman delayed in getting treatment. The other hospital, where she eventually went, was 30 miles away. Even if the delay was only the time it took her to get to the more distant hospital (though it well could have been longer), that time delay could mean the difference between life and death in the case of eclampsia.

This is a real problem real people face every day in this country -- people dying because the closest (often for-profit) hospital turns them away. That's the issue we should all be focusing on. If we had universal health insurance, this couldn't happen to anyone.

[dkf]

63. But having health insurance or not having health insurance had no bearing

on her circumstances at the time of the tragedy...

Indeed, you can easily run up a $4426 bill even if you have health insurance and still be in exactly the same position she found herself in.

[Debi]

13. According to the article

She was informed by a different hospital that, because of previous debt incurred at at time when she didn't have insurance, she would have to provide a $100.00 deposit if she requested treatment there. When she started having problems with her pregnancy she did not go to the first hospital but a different one where she was immediately treated. (So, no, she wasn't turned away - but may have been by one hospital, however since she had insurance may not have.)

[Coexist]

14. thank you for that information.

the story is not false, but misleading and inaccurate.

[Debi]

18. Well, it is false

The young woman did not lose her baby and her life because of lack of medical care as a result of lack of health insurance. However, the potential was there at one hospital. We'll never know if they would have denied her care b/c she didn't go to that hospital for treatment and the one she did go to provided her with care.

I know that what we need to do is raise the question - why should anyone have to pick and choose where to go fearing being turned away b/c of lack of health insurance? (and frankly insurance shouldn't be the issue - health CARE should be what we're talking about).

But telling false tales doesn't get us there. And Clinton not telling the truth (again) shouldn't be glossed over.

At least that's MO.

[hedgehog]

19. That's an excellent question and goes to show how garbled this

entire story is. Truth to tell, I suspect that a misunderstanding of medical practice has been mixed with a story of health insurance. Here's what I think may have happened:

1. The woman became pregnant and had trouble getting pre-natal care at first because of pre-existing issues over paying bills. My guess is that she eventually did get pre-natal care.

2. Late in the pregnancy, there were problems. She realized that something was wrong, went to the hospital and it was determined that the baby was dead. I think this is where the confusion started. The hospital sent her home to see if nature would take its course and labor start spontaneously. This may have been perceived as callous and uncaring by people who heard the story later. Most people's reaction is that SOMETHING should be done, but I suspect the best medical practice is not to intefere in the process. Whatever the facts, somehting went very wrong and the woman died.

Hard cases make bad law. Hillary made the mistake of picking up a confusing story and presenting it as an example of the problem of having no health insurance.

[Coexist]

20. there must be so many straightforward, accurate stories out there

to use this one just makes you shake your head.

[pnwmom]

38. According to the aunt, she was sent a letter by Hospital A, to whom she had

owed money in the past, that in the future she would not be treated there unless she paid them $100 in advance. When she got sick during her pregnancy she didn't go there because she didn't have $100. She eventually went to another hospital, Hospital B, that did treat her. Hospital B is the one that came out claiming the story was false, because they clearly didn't know about Hospital A.

[Debi]

45. She was provided care by the hospital and she had health insurance

both of these FACTS failed to make their way into Clinton's telling of the story.

[pnwmom]

47. She was provided care by the second hospital. This doesn't conflict with

anything in HRC's story. She was denied care by one hospital (because of not having $100) so she went to the second hospital. The fact that she had health insurance now isn't relevant. She had the letter from the first hospital telling her not to come back without cash, so she didn't.

[Debi]

56. Wait, I'm getting dizzy

somebody is spinning here.

[elehhhhna]

57. BREAKING: Hillary accidentally almost TELLS THE TRUTH!

lol

[pnwmom]

33. The hospital near her where she had previously received care DID write her

a letter saying that she wouldn't be treated if she didn't pay $100 in advance.

That hospital DID turn her away, via their letter.

[anigbrowl]

40. That's a far cry from being turned away in person when you require immediate care

And as you know full well, that's not the hospital where the stillbirth occurred. Pretending that the one (a financial headache in 2005) has something to do with the other (a medical situation in 2007) is really stretching the truth.

[pnwmom]

48. HRC never said that the hospital that told her she would be denied care

(without a payment) was the same hospital that finally treated her. In fact, her story made it clear that she went to a different hospital, which is where she eventually died.

This woman had a letter from the first hospital, the hospital near her home where she had previously been a patient, telling her she wasn't welcome to return without cash. Don't you think this might have caused her to delay going to any hospital? Especially one that was 30 miles away? I do.

And in the case of eclampsia, ANY delay can be life-threatening.

[OzarkDem]

60. She was underinsured

Here's hoping you end up in the same situation some day.

[tpsbmam]

3. Either way.....

It's pretty much a non-story IMO. I don't think Clinton was wrong for repeating the story as she heard it -- I bet most candidates would have done the same.

The media have been patently ridiculous to repeat this story (over and over) in the same breath as Tuzla. I frankly think the Tuzla story was one big fat lie. This one was a goof (or not -- time will tell) that anyone could have made. This one is a grey area with different versions of the story told by different sides.

I do think Clinton has told some tall tales but this isn't one of them. The problem is that she's left herself vulnerable to people attacking her for not telling the truth. She has sort of set that stage for herself. That doesn't mean, though, that it's right to go after her unfairly in cases like this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080407/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_hospital_fact_check

But at an earlier time, Casto said, Bachtel lacked health insurance and ran up unpaid bills when treated at a clinic near her home in Middleport. When she returned for treatment when pregnant, the clinic demanded $100 per visit to help retire the outstanding debt, Casto said. Because Bachtel could not afford the fees and found it difficult to travel, her aunt said, she postponed receiving treatment.

Bachtel eventually went to O'Bleness, about 30 miles to the north, for attention.

.........

The case in particular is besides the point -- it's the health care crisis in this country that is the critical issue. I wish people would listen to the point of the story rather than perseverate on whether or not this particular story is accurate.

[dkf]

15. But does this case prove anything besides the doctors screwed up her diagnosis?

They told her to come back in 2 days and wasn't that the problem?

[anigbrowl]

43. not even that

I'm reluctant to draw any conclusions about a complex medical case. Medical staff are not omnipotent and pregnancy/delivery is a fairly high risk situation in medical terms. It might be a result of poor care, or it might be the result of a genuinely unpredictable factor.

[hedgehog]

5. While we go back and forth on the details of this story and Hillary's

failure to check out the details, the entire issue of health care is being obscured.

[tishaLA]

6. thank you!

Instead of playing gotcha over the small misstatements, we need to be looking at the larger message about the dismal state of health care in the US.

[hedgehog]

10. I should make myself clear and state that I blame Clinton for the problem.

She framed the issue by telling a poorly researched sob story instead of finding a way to make people understand that we're all in this together. As long as health insurance is the other guy's problem, voters can avoid the issue.

[tishaLA]

16. She's partly to blame, but I also blame media/campaign games

media/campaign games. The media loves a narrative and, on the heels of the Bosnia lie, the health care lie fit into the narrative they wanted to Hillary. As long as they have a narrative, they don't have to explore issues; they don't need to tell us that McCain has no health care plan to speak of; they don't have to do the leg work of covering anything but the most insubstantial parts of politics.

[hedgehog]

22. If she can't control her message during the campaign, how could she hope

to control it when the time comes to pass health care legislation?

[tishaLA]

23. No argument from me.

She doesn't typically frame the argument in a way that will produce a favorable outcome, so she can always fall victim to the tried and true narratives about her. I think she is too entrenched in her style of politics to change, so she will always get the same results.

[dkf]

11. But the issue should be that having health insurance isn't the be all and end all.

Her problem was that she racked up a large bill earlier in her life (around $4000), which is still possible even if you have health insurance.

I

[pnwmom]

39. Exactly. And that every single day hospitals do turn patients away

for inability to pay.

[Yael]

9. "closer to the truth"

Truth isn't horseshoes.

It is sad that the bar has been lowered to the point that Hillary gets credit for how close she comes to the truth.

Its like sewage. If you pour a cup of water into a bucket of sewage, you still have sewage.

[Cha]

26. Isn't that how bush got by? Lower expectations?

If he's able to get a complete sentence out..the m$$$m go ga ga over it?

[TexasObserver]

17. Unlikely. Since when does Hillary get anything right in her tall tales?

She is making a good case that she should be the next Secretary of Department of Making Shit Up.

[Debi]

21. Sorry, but Robert Gates holds that position at the moment n/t

[TexasObserver]

27. yes, but his tenure is UP January 20, 2009!!

[Debi]

30. Oh, so she's applying for the job

The sniper fire story now takes on new meaning! :thumbsup:

[TexasObserver]

32. Secretary of Conflated Tall Tales!!

Like the time she and JFK worked on the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Is she still not providing her own staff with health care?

:shrug:

[Debi]

29. Oh, no, she's providing them with 'health insurance'

she's just not paying the bill.

(wonder what would happen to us if we didn't pay our health insurance bill.....)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Let's hope none of them are pregnant.

[susankh4]

35. Thanks for posting!

This story is a classic example of how everything HRC does and says... is spun to be "lies." I simply ignore anything the MSM says about her. Or about Mr. Obama, for that matter.

I'm pretty much on break from D.U. for now... until ya'll get a more positive take on life. My D.U. bumper sticker has arrived.... but, nope, I am not going to put it on my car next to the HRC sticker. That would be misleading. And I would never want anyone I know to jump into this toxic environment now.

Hope it gets better soon.

[cbayer]

41. I just got my sticker yesterday

and I won't be putting it on my car either. This has become a hateful, hostile environment for anyone who is not 100% pro-Obama. I continue to support both candidates. However, when in DU gd:p, I feel that I have to be very careful to not ever, ever question Obama or be seen as supporting Clinton. It is really a sick environment.

[Beaverhausen]

37. Is Healthcare an important issue? Or is dissing Clinton at every turn more important?

Jesus people - healthcare in this country needs to be fixed. If a few details in this story are wrong - WHO GIVES A SHIT?

There are people dying every day in the US because they have no insurance or bad coverage. It happens. It isn't a made up story.

fuck- I'm so sick of this bullshit.

[anigbrowl]

46. Healthcare is important, but you need to appreciate that politicans can't cure everyone

I'm from Europe, and a country where we have universal healthcare - not universal insurance, but universal care. You just go to the doctor and you get seen. Unfortunately, people still die, and sometimes it's because of a medical screwup.

If someone is making a general point that healthcare in this country is fucked and it's a Bad Thing, well then I wholly agree. I have no problem with Clinton saying such. Nobody forced her into using a specific tale of woe heard from a third party to illustrate her point. As an attorney she knows that hearsay is not considered reliable so repeating the story as told reflects an error in judgment. It doesn't alter my views about healthcare policy in any way.

[roseBudd]

50. "As an attorney she knows that hearsay is not considered reliable" & anecdotal is the worst evidence

[NashVegas]

53. It's a Campaign, Not a Trial

Yet, some people insist on making it one.

:(


Both candidates made it part of their campaign to swear up and down they'll end the war and bring the troops home - and yet their advisers (at least one of them) are telling other leaders on the sly, "well, no, not really, not right away at least."

So why does something like this seem more important?

[Seabiscuit]

62. Wrong and wrong.

Hearsay is inadmissable unless one of the exceptions to the hearsay exclusionary rule is met. If so, then it is admissable and considered reliable until proven otherwise. Period.

Anecdotal is only considered "the worst evidence" in certain engineering and some scientific circles. It's basically dismissed as silly by the "meters & measurement" types.

The law doesn't even talk about "anecdotal" evidence. It talks about "testimonial" evidence, which is what most evidence is, including "expert testimony". It's deemed reliable until proven otherwise.

[DerekJ]

42. What’s the point behind the hospital story anyways... It’s not a lie!!! At best it’s

campaign incompetence… Who Cares?!!!

[OzarkDem]

61. Its an attack on both Clinton and Health Care Reform

Same trick was used on Al Gore in 2000.

Its a clever smear to hurt both the candidate and the health care reform agenda they're trying to promote.

IF Obama supporters are truly passionate about health care reform they would have refrained from using a cheap opportunity to bash Clinton in favor of talking about our country's health care crisis.

Guess what most Obama supporters did? Yep.