It's late in the game, but still very winnable. The time has come for Hillary to pull the goalie

[mtnsnake]

and throw caution to the wind.

It's time for THE CHALLENGE.

It's time for her to step it up a notch and go for broke. By this, I mean she's gotta put any personal political concerns aside and start taking political risks. It's the only way.

One way for her to do this is by stepping up her rhetoric on the Iraq War, going extreme on it, and then challenging Obama on it. For example, I'd like to see her re-broadcast her pledge she made to end the war upon taking the oath, if the war is still going on. And then she should go even further. She needs to go out on a limb and put it all on the line by saying not only will she call for an end to the war on Day 1 of her Presidency, but she'll start making plans to bring troops home on Day 2, not Day 60, and promise to have them all home within 6 months time or less, leaving Iraq for the Iraqis to decide.

Here's the kicker: When she's done making these very bold pledges, then she needs to challenge Obama to come up with something better and for him to lay it all on the line what he's going to do with Iraq. She'll be putting him on the spot without attacking him, and it will be difficult for him to come back with a more liberal answer without looking crazy. Another way she can go out on a limb and challenge him is by saying she's going to raise taxes on anyone making over $150,00/yr instead of anyone making over $200,000/yr, and put those savings in the pockets of the poor and middle classes by reducing their taxes even more. Then she can challenge Obama on that one, too, which he'll also have a hard time beating, unless he wants to risk losing his advantage that he currently has with the Independents.

Hillary can't attack Obama. She needs to CHALLENGE him by going way out on a limb herself, raising the bar at such an extremely high level that Obama can't possibly one-up her, and then challenge him to put his specifics on the line like she did. At this point, she's got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[endarkenment]

1. throw caution to the wind? That is so last month.

I do admire your ability to put a positive spin on the zombie campaign of Senator Clinton. You get an A for effort. However perhaps what it is really time for is for all of us to rally around our nominee?

[babylonsister]

2. I see reality has no place in this little scenario. Go for it, Hil! nt

[mtnsnake]

10. Hey I didn't expect any Obamabots to go for this

Afterall, the plan is a winner. I just hope she finds out in time and gives him the challenge :smoke:

[babylonsister]

16. You should e-mail her STAT!

:thumbsup:

And BTW, would her IWR or Kyl-Leiberman vote get mentioned? Because someone might bring them up, and her errors in judgment. :smoke:

[MercutioATC]

3. The problem with that strategy...

...she may well not be able to deliver, and experts will show that.

She'll come off as desperate and, once again, willing to make wild claims to win.

[underpants]

4. in another sports metaphor-it is really hard to suddenly just "turn it on"

and given her campaign's record so far it is not likely that she will be able to flip this switch.

I agree with you on her having to push it now like RIGHT NOW but this doesn't look good.

[lefty from jersey]

6. Calling David Bechham and Posh Spics

"Deader than soccer." The Clinton campaign is on life support. Only trouble is, she may take the whole crew and ship down with her.

I am sure the Clinton's know the jig is up. They are playing for a big share of the spoils. It is time for the Party to be done with the Clintons for ever. Put a stake in her heart.

[underpants]

8. Welcome to DU

if'n I haven't before :hi:

[redqueen]

55. Deader than soccer?

:wtf:

:grr:

[tabasco]

5. Great idea. That would end it once and for all.

Hillary promising a chicken in every pot,and a pony too!

That should completely destroy whatever credibility she has remaining and we can all move on to annihilate McCain.

[mtnsnake]

7. Oh ya think so, eh? Better tell your man to get ready for THE CHALLENGE

which will soon be hitting the airwaves :smoke:

[roguevalley]

76. what challenge? it took her a week to fire penn.

[rodeodance]

63. as Bill C. said--Saddle up Obama.

[Vinca]

9. Unfortunately for Hillary, everything she says is now taken with a grain of salt.

She's lost her credibility and that's a game changer.

[mtnsnake]

12. Whatever people think of her credibility, it's the challenge to Obama that will matter

It is he who will be put on the spot. He'd have 4 choices:

He can say she doesn't have credibiity, something we all know he won't do.

He can admit he can't match or beat her pledges, something we all know he better not do, for his sake.

He can TRY to beat her pledges, something that would be virtually impossible to do without looking like a total extremist.

He can ignore her challenge, which could be political suicide because people would wonder even more than they already do about his lack of specifics and substance.

[Mooney]

20. She's not going to do it,

She's too risk-averse of a candidate to really go out on a limb like you're suggesting. The kind of campaign style you're suggesting is more in line with a Dennis Kucinich, and that's not how she rolls.

She could no sooner run this type of progressive, throw-down-the-gauntlet campaign than John McCain could run a campaign based on cutting the defense budget. It's not going to happen.

[mtnsnake]

23. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's her best way, maybe only way, to pull this out

[Mooney]

29. I think it's too late in the game.

Maybe a month ago this still would have been possible, but she stuck with the campaign strategy that she stuck with, for better or worse, and I think at this point there just simply isn't enough time to shift course dramatically like what you're suggesting.

The campaign style that you're suggesting probably would have worked out well for her if she had adopted it originally. She's a smart woman who's been ahead of the curve on many issues, and if she had run on her bolder ideas (and outside of the shadow of her husband) she could very well have cinched the nomination already. And of course, she should have never hired Mark Penn.

I think if she had run on the strength of her own ideas, left Bill at home, and not let Mark Penn anywhere near her she would have grabbed the nomination easily. If she were to adopt this strategy now, though, I don't think she could pull it off convincingly.

[mtnsnake]

31. Again, you might be right, but we'll find out soon enough if she has anything left in the tank

Thanks for your posts.

[SwampG8r]

47. lol

never say "pull it out "in reference to the clintons
:rofl:

[goclark]

37. Rght now he is the front runner

Yes, she could do the "Rocky" on him and challenge him in the ring.


Ding, Ding, Ding....

[JayFredMuggs]

51. He can admit he can't match or beat her pledges, something we all know he better not do.... WRONG!!

That's the way he's winning this thing, by NOT trying to be a mixed-race male version of Hillary.

You folks on the Hillary side don't get it yet, do you?


He can TRY to beat her pledges, something that would be virtually impossible to do without looking like a total extremist.

He has already beat her pledges, he has been honest about his whole life, his church affiliations, his regrets and mistakes with Rezko, his childhood, his entire career. Hillary does just the opposite, she embellishes her "35 years"....almost 16 of which were spent as a First Lady of the USA or of AR, she has been a Senator for 7 years, and frankly, has nothing to show for it.


He can ignore her challenge

And should do so, he's not running for President against another Democrat, he's running against a "mindset" that allowed Hillary to vote to Authorize Bush to wage as SECOND WAR WHILE ONE WAS ALREADY GOING ON!!! People forget that part, that America was ALREADY at war in Afghanistan when Hillary made her fateful vote without reading the intelligence reports.

Obama doesn't need to pay attention to Hillary's speeches and challenges, he needs to pay attention to the American people, and he's doing that!

[Eric Condon]

86. Um, are you her campaign manager?

What makes you think she's actually going to DO this? "The challenge to Obama" - this is YOUR invention, not hers.

I have a hunch that this isn't going to happen. Doing the things you're talking about would require doing the right thing and taking an actual progressive stand, something Hillary couldn't do if her life depended on it.

[Lucky 13]

11. You mean being $30 MIL in the hole wasn't throwing caution to the wind?

Launching the kitchen sink wasn't throwing caution to the wind?

If the clinton campaign has been CAUTIOUS up to this point, I am TERRIFIED to see what happens when she goes for broke.

[guruoo]

68. Funny , Obamagandists didn't seem to think the 'kitchen sink' was so dirty when they used it

[grantcart]

13. The goalie quit after Mississippi when his check bounced

[AllentownJake]

14. Making irresponsible promises

That sounds like a great strategy and will serve the party greatly in the GE.

[mtnsnake]

17. It's only for you to say that it's irresponsible. WTF have you been calling for all along???

Have you not been calling for a swift end to the war like everyone else? :wtf:

[AllentownJake]

30. Swift end yes

What you are proposing is logistically not possible.

[kid a]

15. to extend this sports analogy -Do you really just keep fouling when you're down

by 30 points with 20 seconds left?

No - you play it out, but fouling would be extraneous and bad sportsmanship.

[mtnsnake]

18. What are you talking about? I'm talking about pledges she intends to keep. Jayeesus!

[kid a]

39. my bad - missed the "not attack" sentence. Good post - a good strategy.

But I do believe Obama could and will meet those challenges with out losing support, delegates, or votes.

Thats all he has to do - not fuck it up.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[mtnsnake]

40. thanks

But I do believe Obama could and will meet those challenges with out losing support, delegates, or votes.

Thats all he has to do - not fuck it up.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem, and yes, he is definitely in the drivers seat. He just has to be careful not to do something that could blow it. I'm sure he's well aware that Hillary will need to pull out all the stops and that he'll have to be on his toes.

Yeah, she definitely can't be attacking him at this point. The only option that I see left for her is some kind of a challenge to Barack.

[whatchamacallit]

19. She has no intention of ending the war - it would be just another lie

Good luck learning to come to grips with your shattered dreams.

[mtnsnake]

21. And how do you know that? Did she tell you that? If so, when did you interview her?

Wow, we at DU should be really proud that we have someone among us who has a direct pipeline to Hillary Clinton like you do (snicker)

[whatchamacallit]

34. She's a pathological liar

If you try to square her record with her empty rhetoric you quickly understand she's making it up as she goes.

[SwampG8r]

49. typical hillary shillary

it isnt true until she says its true
and when she decides its not true again then it wont be

[BuyingThyme]

22. Political Analogies for 800, Alex.

[mtnsnake]

24. And?

[BuyingThyme]

26. No, I'm sorry. The answer is WHAT IS TEN? TEN.

[mtnsnake]

27. Deep, very deep.

:eyes:

[JayFredMuggs]

54. The question is?

What is the number of times Hillary has outright LIED while campaigning for President?

[Bigleaf]

25. Only problem is she's down by 3 goals with a minute left in the game.

[mtnsnake]

28. More like 2 goals, but we're going to find out shortly if she realizes it.

I've seen way more than one game that has been pulled out by a team in the last minute, when down a couple goals like that.

[grantcart]

71. While you were posting this the other team just scored 7 goals

[Major Hogwash]

73. And she fired their trainer - Penn.

For using steroids.

[Barack_America]

32. Let her bring the 6th attacker. Obama will just score an empty-netter!

:woohoo: :bounce:

[Barack_America]

33. Wait. Are we talking hockey here or soccer?

:shrug:

[mtnsnake]

36. hockey

[mtnsnake]

35. Yikes, I was hoping nobody would say that!

:mad:

[JBoy]

38. As a hockey fan, I think you're right

What pulling your goalie (and getting a 6th attacker on the ice) does is increase the probability of scoring - for both sides. It increases the offensive potential (of the Hillary side), at the expense of their defence. I've seen statistics showing that with your goalie pulled, you are about 4 times more likely to score than with your goalie in. Unfortunately you are also about 10 times more likely to be scored against during that time.

So the analogy is a good one, even better than the "hail mary" pass in football, which implies a single event.

Edit: even though I'm an Obama supporter, I recommend this thread. There's not enough hockey on DU.

[Bigleaf]

41. Canuck fan eh? I want your ex GM Burke in TO next year.

[JBoy]

42. You can have Naslund too.

Only good thing about the Canucks is that I won't be glued to the TV for the next couple of months.

[Bigleaf]

44. I wish I could say I was sorry for you. I don't like to admit this, I'm a die-hard Leaf fan.

[mtnsnake]

50. You're a leafs fan? I used to like you

:evilgrin:

I wish the Leafs didn't suck so bad this year. I would love for them to have met the Sens in the playoffs just to see them get throttled once and for all in a playoff matchup between them.

:hi:

[Avalux]

43. lol. I agree with your assessment (both).

Can I say I've waited a looooong time for my Penguins to be on top in the East?? Can't wait for the playoffs! :hi:

[Bigleaf]

45. You're laughing right now. Crosby, Malkin? I feel your pain. Maybe I should move to Pittsburgh.

[Avalux]

60. Don't forget Fleury. He's improved so much since the start of the season.

Just needed to get his head on straight and reign in those rebounds. ;-)

[mtnsnake]

48. Unfortunately for them, the Penguins will be hosting the Sens and going down in 6 games

even without Alfie, Fisher, and Kelly in the lineup. :smoke:

All ribbing aside, the Penguins have come so far so quickly. Gotta give 'em credit.

[Bigleaf]

53. Believe it or not, I like the Sens. So close last year. Maybe this is the year.

On behalf of the Leafs, sorry about Alfie and Fisher. I love Fisher. What a player. My fave Senator. Did you hear of the story of the young boy Elgin-Alexander Fraser last year?

Watch this story, but make sure you have tissues, it's heartbreaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z25OVDG_E9g&NR=1

Read this link:

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/sports/story.html?id=96d7257a-062a-450d-b67a-9344a27212f4

My respect for Fisher, which was already high, went through the roof after this sad story.

[mtnsnake]

58. Thanks for that link

I have to hit the road now and get some work done, but I will definitely read it when I get home tonight. Fisher has long been one of my favorite NHL players right from when he started as a rookie. I have so much respect for him and Alfie. I'm going to try and make it to at least one playoff game if I can.

[Avalux]

62. We'll just have to wait and see won't we?

;-) Yep - the goal was the playoffs and they exceeded; proud of em!

[mtnsnake]

46. Diehard hockey fan here, too

even though I'm an Obama supporter, I recommend this thread. There's not enough hockey on DU.

That's as good a reason as any. I'll take it. :evilgrin:

and Go Sens Go! (Sorry about the Canucks this year. I'm guessing you're a Canucks fan from your profile)

[Recursion]

52. Are you seriously proposing withdrawing 130,000 troops from a war zone in 6 months?

Have you ever done logistics?

[JayFredMuggs]

56. It is evident that Hillary has never done any logistics

Even in her Presidential campaign.

[rodeodance]

66. Her plan to withdraw safely has been approved by Pentgon officials.

[Recursion]

82. mtnsnake is suggesting a different plan, though

Nobody, not even Ron Paul, is talking about having every soldier out in 6 months.

[crankychatter]

57. brilliant: pretend to be more anti-war than already pretending to be

AND THEN THEY'LL BELIEVE IT

so it'll be like "name that tune"

I can withdraw troops from Iraq in six months....

I can withdraw troops from Iraq in FOUR MONTHS

name that tune...

making a fucking GAME of it - THAT'S THE NAME OF THAT TUNE

... did your HEART go the way of your MIND?

[rodeodance]

64. Its BO whose advisors want 1000's of troops there. AND he will keep BLACKWATER

[Romulox]

59. She needs to ATTACK Obama on the economy--it is his weakest spot, imo

Barack Obama can't seal the deal with blue collar workers. So far, Clinton has given him a pass on this.

[cottonseed]

61. She's spent the whole campaign saying that anything better isn't realistic.

Who's going to believe her when she changes her stance on this?

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

65. nobody will believe her: snipers, hospital story, MLK handshake, etc etc etc

[Froward69]

67. When did Hillary have a Goalie???

thats hocky...
now for football
Her hail mary pass to the end zone is to Elected delegates... Whom are changing their uniforms going down the sideline. I really do not think anyone will be there to catch it. turnover/touch back or safety is more likely.

[ProSense]

69. She can't win

The link below goes through all the "Wretched rationalizations for Hillary Clinton's kamikaze campaign." Here's one:

Then you have the millions of Clinton supporters who have come to see her campaign as the literal embodiment of feminism. "Now Clinton's methodical, dogged history of work for the Democratic Party is treated just like the methodical, dogged histories of so many women in the workplace," writes syndicated columnist Marie Cocco. "She must step aside to take the smaller office, with the lesser title and the lower pay to make room for the younger guy with the thinner resume."

In the same column, Cocco concedes, "Maybe it is true that Clinton has no realistic way to win the nomination." That's quite a concession! That is, if you consider the presidency an instrument for legislation and policy change, rather than a vehicle for Hillary Clinton's self-actualization and the civic expression of the South Dakota Democratic primary electorate.

Schlesinger once described the doughface tradition thusly: "Politics becomes, not a means of getting things done, but an outlet for private grievances and frustrations." Is there any better description for Clinton's rationale?

link

The realities

[nichomachus]

70. Block that metaphor!

As others have pointed out, pulling your goalie is a desperation move that makes you highly vulnerable, especially in a timed game.

One skillful or lucky shot by the other team into the open goal, and you are now deader than a doornail. And Obama has shown himself to be extremely skillful in making those kinds of shots.

But the other factor here is the media and the punditry. Hillary would make a one news-cycle splash with her balls-to-the-wall proposal. Then, the "analysts" would take over and there would be a non-stop 24/7 discussion -- not about her proposal -- but about why she changed. Is she weak? Is she frightened? Is she desperate? What about Mark Penn? Has Hillary already failed? This discussion would suck all the oxygen out of the room and Hillary's proposal would be forgotten in about 15 minutes.

Also, the superdelegates aren't stupid. They are politicians. They would know this was a desperation move and it would signal weakness to them -- making such a major shift so late in the campaign. And nothing will sink her with the supers quicker than a show of weakness.

Had she changed her campaign when the first fractures appeared, she might have pulled it off. But it's a little late in the game for that. She's already shot herself in the foot -- and stopped to reload -- several times.

[Major Hogwash]

72. Very winnable? Geezuz H Chreest. You think it's still very winnable!!

She's behind in the polls in Pennsylvania.
She's gonna lose in Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, Montana, Oregon, South Dakota and Puerto Rico.
That's at least 8 out of the remaining 10 primaries that she's gonna lose.

Where is she going to get the delegates, West Virgina?
Guam?

Those are the only races left and she doesn't have a chance.

The delegates simply aren't there, mtnsnake.

[LSK]

74. she has a credibility problem because she dragged her feet for so long

She has been awol from the anti-war movement all these years and just recently is starting to apologize for her IWR vote (depending on what day it is). She cannot come out as the leading anti-war critic as everyone will see right through it as only a last ditch campaign effort.

She can try, but it will not go over well. She should have been doing this 2 or 3 years ago.

[Forkboy]

75. Some numbers on the effectiveness of pulling the goalie.

The scoring rate without the goalie pulled is somewhat lower than the overall rate in all games, which we expect because these are close games (ie - you wouldn't pull the goalie if you were down 5 goals). But when teams pull their goalie, the outcome is usually negative: the opposing team is almost 10 times as likely to put the game away with an empty-net goal, but again, a loss is a loss whether it's by one goal or two. (Except in politics)


On the positive side, teams score 5.5 goals per 60 minutes when they pull their goalies, which makes them almost four times as likely to score the tying goal than if they'd kept the goalie in. Overall, 40-60 games per year get tied up with the goalie pulled, compared to less than 10 if goalies stayed in. This represents a average gain of 2-2.5 points in the standings per team, clearly justifying the strategy.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/blog/2007/12/what-happens-when-you-pull-your-goalie.html

The risk of being scored against is 10 times as great, but the chances of you scoring go up by almost four times. Combining this with your logic of "We don't care how many goals we lose by," it's obvious that pulling the goalie is a viable desperation tactic.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/hockey/stars/stories/032708dnspostarsnewsletter.3045e7c.html

"Viable desperation tactic" sums it up, and it's telling to me that you're thinking that. Especially when you factor in that Hillary needs more than one goal to 'tie the game'.

[BornBlue]

77. Ring, Ring, Ring, reality is calling

Ok, I am going to echo a fellow poster, these promises would be irresponsible. You cannot plan to end a war after being in office 2 days. We already know she makes decisions without reading the reports. So now you are advocating that she pull out all the troops within days of being sworn in? We all want our troops to come home safely and this would guarantee that they would not. As soon as the rebel groups heard there was a mass exodus plan violence would escalate beyond what we have seen.
If she changes all of her stances now the rest of the electorate would now know that she stands for nothing. She would be worse than a fence sitter. She would be on the same level as McCain. Mr. I am against torture, but will vote against banning it; I am against the irresponsible tax cuts during a time of war, lets make 'em permanent. Changing your positions during a campaign is just a bad idea, but I guess that would be perfect for Hillary, her campaign has been one bad move after another.

[Whisp]

78. it's time for Hillary to pull my finger.

and I will do it in her general direction.

[rodeodance]

79. Glad to see Penn demoted. Lets look for some positive changes.

[DefenseLawyer]

80. Meanwhile, back on Earth.... n/t

[BlueIdaho]

81. Yes by all means

she should absolutely start making up more stuff - stuff about the future cuz its much harder to see the lies until its way too late.

By the way she can't pull the goalie - she already threw him under the bus to weasel out of Bosnia.

[elehhhhna]

83. so she should lie her butt off some more? lol u r nuts.

[apocalypsehow]

84. LOL! - your OP is like watching someone debate the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic,

even as the bow is starting to tip up into the air, and the stern sink beneath the waves. Hilarious.

[JayFredMuggs]

85. Good analogy! And the Captain of the ship is starting to throw ..

her top crew off the boat, but only starting, not really letting them go into the deep sea, keeping them on the gangplank